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Old July 21st, 2007 #1
G. K. SEPP
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Question What Gun Should I Buy ???

Hello Folks,

What type of gun should I buy & why ?

Thanks for any information.
 
Old July 21st, 2007 #2
Demonica
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Are you wanting one for home protection? My father swears by Smith and Wesson .357 magnums. Very powerful and gets the job done the first time (provided you can hit a target).
 
Old July 21st, 2007 #3
Human target
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What's the intended use?

For home defense, get a 12 gauge pump (Mossberg, Winchester or Remington are all decent) and cut the barrel as short as allowed by law. Load it with 2 low brass small game shells, followed by quality turkey hunting loads. The small shot shells will cover a huge spread with the choke cut off, and the turkey shot can make a nice finisher if needed. As a bonus, the sound of jacking a shell into the chamber is the sound nigger criminals fear most.

For carry, get a good .357 revolver and put .38 rounds in it. Or, if you're familiar with firearms, get a .40 S&W auto. Both will be easy to shoot, accurate enough, and are proven deadly.
 
Old July 21st, 2007 #4
G. K. SEPP
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Your opinion on home defense gun ?

and the carry gun ?

Loads & why ?

Thanks
 
Old August 4th, 2007 #5
False Freedom
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Most people say 12 gauge pump shotgun for home defense for several reasons. One of the most compelling is the low cost of the gun. A GOOD 12 gauge pump shotgun will cost you in the mid $200 range. Another of the most compelling reasons is the stopping power a 12 gauge offers if you put the right loads in it. Most of the serious people in the shooting community recommend anything from 000 buckshot on down to #4 buckshot, in any of the 2 and 3/4 inch or 3 inch loads (make sure to get a gun with a 3 inch chamber if you want to shoot the 3 inch loads, which pack more punch).

Drawbacks to the pump shotgun are it's length. If you work up a home defense plan that has you moving from room to room (I don't recommend this, great way to get yourself killed) then the length will be an obvious drawback, as it's a bit difficult to get a 20 inch barreled shotgun around a corner quickly, and your perp could always try some Jackie Chan shit by grabbing the barrel and keeping himself out of the way of the business end.

This is where some people recommend pistols for home defense. If you want a carry gun too (look up your state's concealed carry laws over at packing.org, they could be outdated, however) than I'd say get this first, because it can fill both roles in a pinch. Get yourself to a decent range that does rentals and rent some autos and revolvers, anything that you would think about buying. Or, if you have friends that shoot, ask them if you can accompany them to the range sometime. Offer to buy a box of ammo and they should be game. I went with a 9mm Glock 19 myself, but I also can't get a carry permit unless I drag my town's police chief to court (long story, don't give cops lip about your rights while protesting illegal immigration because they really don't give a shit about your rights and they LOVE throwing WN's around) so the size of that particular piece doesn't bother me and I've figured out that if I DO get my carry permit, I can put it in the front of my pants and be good to go. Most people will say don't go smaller than a .40 in an auto, and I actually agree, but this is my first pistol, and I want to shoot the hell out of it, so the cheap 9mm ammo made my decision for me. The 9mm also has VERY little recoil and muzzle flip, which makes practicing double taps and controlled pairs much MUCH easier. Any premium defensive load in a pistol should do the job. We're talking Federal Hydrashoks, Speer Gold Dots, the Golden Saber rounds (I forget who manufactures those, I THINK Winchester), any premium defensive load.

Some people also use carbines such as shorty AR15's for home defense. A carbine would also make a great first gun because it can double as your "homeland defense" or "OH SHIT! The world is ending!" gun. I can consistently nail gallon milkjugs full of water out at 100 yards with my AR15, so I'm thinking it's good for any man sized target at any foreseeable range in my area, with the possible exception of some of the longer straighter stretched of road. The AR15 is a tad on the expensive side for a first gun, though. I paid $900 for mine, then bought a buttload of magazines for it while they're still cheap ($10 a mag is a damn good price). Good ammo is a bit expensive for the AR15, but if all you're anticipating using it for at first is home defense and MAYBE a rainy day, world is ending rifle, then just stock up on a few mags worth of the good stuff (XM193 spec, which is currently being made by Wolf in their Gold line, this stuff fragments like a beast in a soft target out to about 125 yards from a carbine length barrel and out to about 150 yards out of a full 10 inch rifle length barrel) and plink/practice with cheaper ammo like regular Wolf (some people don't like the cheaper polymer cased Wolf, but a lot of this is a bad aftertaste from the previous line of lacquer coated Wolf which apparently used to gum up the chambers in AR's).

Another good first gun would be an AK47 or AK74 clone. You can find a decent AK47 clone for no more than $400 out the door w/ two mags. Decent AK74 clones are about $50 more out the door at the store I frequent, but AK74 ammo can be had for about $20 less per thousand rounds right now. AK74 mags will run about $25 each, compared to $10 to $12 AK47 mags. AK74 mags are also typically bakelite, which is pretty brittle and I really don't know how eager I'd be to dive for cover if I had some on a chest rig. AK47 mags, on the other hand, are made of steel, typically blued or parkerized, and built like a freaking tank. Also note that there are some manufacturers making polymer mags for both the AK47 and the AK74. They're too expensive for me to justify getting any for the AK47, but they're about the same price as bakelite mags for the AK74. I wouldn't hesitate to heap some abuse on a well manufactured polymer magazine.

No matter what you get, stock up on cheap ammo to practice with. Join a range, or better yet, find a sandpit where shooting is allowed, and practice whenever you can. Shooting is a GREAT stress reliever, I always come away from the range feeling relaxed, as well as accomplished. Also, make sure you know your weapon inside and out, and keep it clean and in good working order. Your life could depend on that weapon someday, and there's nothing louder than a click when there should be a bang.

I hope this was a useful post, and happy shopping.
 
Old August 4th, 2007 #6
Sean Martin
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Bigger is better is foolish for home defense unless you live in the middle of the desert. Get a high-powered gun or 375, then shoot through your wall into the bedroom of the kid next door. You will wish you faced the intruder bare knuckled than the Jewish Judge.

A good 12 gauge in pump or auto is a good choice. The advantage over a pump is reliability and the disheartening sound the cha chunk makes when you chamber it.

A good reliable 12 gauge can be found at Wal-Mart for $189 for a Mossberg. Here the Pawn shops are loaded with the same gun for $99 used.

It makes me sick talking to online people about guns, they have a fear that iron clad aliens are going to invade their homes and the only hope is a 50 cal while wearing level 4 body armor.

You come out of the house popping with a 22 auto the invader will run. I have seen this happen many times and I can assure you criminals only want to rob unarmed people. It may not be the greatest weapon in the world but it works. Get a medium caliber gun so you won’t shoot through the next 3 homes incase you miss your shot which is most likely in an intense situation.

If you want to avoid Green Beret body armor wearing 308 having ZOG soldiers invading your home at 3 a.m while riding Apache helicopters and tanks then don’t break the law.

If this does happen then give yourself up because you are not going to win no matter what gun you have.

In the end get a gun that you feel comfortable with, some people can’t handle a large caliber gun or some people with small hands can’t hold the famous but foolish 1911. BTW the same gun article authors that praise the 1911 to high heaven actually carry a hammerless j-frame 38 special.

If you live in an apartment get a 12 gauge with birdshot, buckshot will shred an apartment wall. Anyone who says they can take 6 rounds of birdshot to the face and keep coming is a pudgy punk that is actually posting in his underwear from his moms basement. Just take his horn-rimmed glasses away from and you won’t even need a gun.

If you live in an apartment or highly populated suburb, the go blasting away with an AK-47 and see what happens.

That is the real life for you.
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Old August 4th, 2007 #7
Hitler's Henchman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G. K. SEPP View Post
Hello Folks,

What type of gun should I buy & why ?

Thanks for any information.
These "what kind of gun" threads are useless and suspicious. All they do is give this Sean Martin idiot an excuse to bloviate.

Why ask here? Get on a gun forum.
 
Old August 4th, 2007 #8
6KILLER
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitler's Henchman View Post
These "what kind of gun" threads are useless and suspicious. All they do is give this Sean Martin idiot an excuse to bloviate.

Why ask here? Get on a gun forum.
You sound like another 'Creatard' with an ax to grind, one with a personal vendeta against Sean (Doc) Martin.
 
Old August 4th, 2007 #9
DanielKrider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G. K. SEPP View Post
Hello Folks,

What type of gun should I buy & why ?

Thanks for any information.
This was posted on stormfront. I guess he didn't like the answers over there.
50cal. you can't go wrong at a thousand yards.
I agree with Hitler's Henchman, these threads are useless and suspicious.
 
Old August 4th, 2007 #10
Sean Martin
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Go point by point and tear what I said apart. Or do you think having a cannon is the idea self defense weapon while living in an apartment?

I don’t know about you but I live in the real world and not on bizzarro land.

One has to pick his or her self-defense gun to fit their situation, location and body type.

The best advice is to go to a gun shop and feel guns till one feels right in your hand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitler's Henchman View Post
These "what kind of gun" threads are useless and suspicious. All they do is give this Sean Martin idiot an excuse to bloviate.

Why ask here? Get on a gun forum.
The reason a person doesn’t go to a gun forum is the people on all gun forums have hordes of invading bulletproof zombies kicking down their doors. Gun forums are mostly for big talkers who won’t recommend anything less than a browning 50 cal. Or the holy grail of the gun world a 1911, which I despise.

If it wasn’t for some senile old colonel the 1911 wouldn’t even be thought about these days. There are far better designs than one that is clunky, bulky and nearly 100 years old.
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Last edited by Sean Martin; August 4th, 2007 at 09:23 PM.
 
Old August 5th, 2007 #11
NS Cat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin View Post
Go point by point and tear what I said apart. Or do you think having a cannon is the idea self defense weapon while living in an apartment?

I don’t know about you but I live in the real world and not on bizzarro land.

One has to pick his or her self-defense gun to fit their situation, location and body type.

The best advice is to go to a gun shop and feel guns till one feels right in your hand.




The reason a person doesn’t go to a gun forum is the people on all gun forums have hordes of invading bulletproof zombies kicking down their doors. Gun forums are mostly for big talkers who won’t recommend anything less than a browning 50 cal. Or the holy grail of the gun world a 1911, which I despise.

If it wasn’t for some senile old colonel the 1911 wouldn’t even be thought about these days. There are far better designs than one that is clunky, bulky and nearly 100 years old.
Tell me more about the m1911 and it's being obsolete. I don't like the grip safety on it. But I like the trigger. What do you think of it's unique trigger. Seems to me like it's less likely to wear out or break after long usage.
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Old August 5th, 2007 #12
psychologicalshock
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M-79 Grenade launcher DUH!
 
Old August 5th, 2007 #13
6KILLER
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NS Cat View Post
Tell me more about the m1911 and it's being obsolete. I don't like the grip safety on it. But I like the trigger. What do you think of it's unique trigger. Seems to me like it's less likely to wear out or break after long usage.
There's nothing wrong with the m1911, it is a combat proven weapon. They are however fairly expensive, and some people with small hands have difficulty with them, example my wife doesn't care for my 1911 in 10mm nor does she shoot it well. My 18 year old daughter who is 5' 10" tall, and who has large hands for a woman shoots it quite well.
 
Old August 5th, 2007 #14
Sean Martin
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Here is my beef with the 1911.

It is large and heavy which makes it an impractical carry gun. I don’t know about others but I don’t wear a leather jacket in 100-degree weather.

It has a flaw on most that if not held very tightly it will stovepipe every shot. This is bad if a woman shoots it or a man with an injured hand.

It is limited to 8 rounds and one in the chamber.

It is single action, meaning you have to cock the hammer for the first round.

It shoots the 45 acp (granted some shoot the 10mm), which is a round I never saw what the big deal was. Some shoot the 10 mm, but for some reason in the middle of gun country (here) those cannot be purchased anywhere locally anymore.

It doesn’t function well in the elements, I have seen them malfunction in a weather change.

The overall feel just isn’t natural. Unlike for example the Luger it just doesn’t feel like the extension of the hand.

Again the size and weight factor make it a tiring gun to carry around all day. Remember I classify a gun as one that is going to be on the person, a $1,200 gun isn’t worth squat locked up in a safe if you need it outside the home.

The price of course. Rock Island is dumping them for $300 but to get a good Kimber or the like the cost can go from $1,200 for a basic gun to $2,400 and above. For that kind of scratch you can get a decent sniper rifle, shotgun and handgun.

At wal-mart here you can get
Mossberg 12 guage pump $189

Remington 300 win mag with scope $300

S&W Sigma 40 S&W with 2 15 round mags – $325

Taursus 38 special snub nose $275

We are up to $1,089 so far the cost of a decent base Kimber

Romanian AK with 2 30 round mags and bayonet $350

That brings the total to a whopping $1,439.

For the cost of a decent Kimber 1911 you can outfit yourself with all the guns you will need for any situation. 5 really good guns can be purchases for the cost of a 1911.

If you want to sacrifice the new Mossberg for a used one, a local pawnshop here had a used mossberg and marlin 22 for $159 for both. That will then truly give you everything you need.

Or change the AK for a Yugo SKS ($99) and get a new Marlin 22 ($89) that will still be under the price of a good basic 1911.


Note these prices are from Ashland Ky mostly Wal-Mart and borders guns.


I just don’t see any advantage of a 1911 at all.


Not to mention 45 acp ammo costs a lot to shoot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 6KILLER View Post
There's nothing wrong with the m1911, it is a combat proven weapon. They are however fairly expensive, and some people with small hands have difficulty with them, example my wife doesn't care for my 1911 in 10mm nor does she shoot it well. My 18 year old daughter who is 5' 10" tall, and who has large hands for a woman shoots it quite well.
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Old August 5th, 2007 #15
Sean Martin
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Here is my beef with the 1911.

It is large and heavy which makes it an impractical carry gun. I don’t know about others but I don’t wear a leather jacket in 100-degree weather.

It has a flaw on most that if not held very tightly it will stovepipe every shot. This is bad if a woman shoots it or a man with an injured hand.

It is limited to 8 rounds and one in the chamber.

It is single action, meaning you have to cock the hammer for the first round.

It shoots the 45 acp (granted some shoot the 10mm), which is a round I never saw what the big deal was. Some shoot the 10 mm, but for some reason in the middle of gun country (here) those cannot be purchased anywhere locally anymore.

It doesn’t function well in the elements, I have seen them malfunction in a weather change.

The overall feel just isn’t natural. Unlike for example the Luger it just doesn’t feel like the extension of the hand.

Again the size and weight factor make it a tiring gun to carry around all day. Remember I classify a gun as one that is going to be on the person, a $1,200 gun isn’t worth squat locked up in a safe if you need it outside the home.

The price of course. Rock Island is dumping them for $300 but to get a good Kimber or the like the cost can go from $1,200 for a basic gun to $2,400 and above. For that kind of scratch you can get a decent sniper rifle, shotgun and handgun.

At wal-mart here you can get
Mossberg 12 guage pump $189

Remington 300 win mag with scope $300

S&W Sigma 40 S&W with 2 15 round mags – $325

Taursus 38 special snub nose $275

We are up to $1,089 so far the cost of a decent base Kimber

Romanian AK with 2 30 round mags and bayonet $350

That brings the total to a whopping $1,439.

For the cost of a decent Kimber 1911 you can outfit yourself with all the guns you will need for any situation. 5 really good guns can be purchases for the cost of a 1911.

If you want to sacrifice the new Mossberg for a used one, a local pawnshop here had a used mossberg and marlin 22 for $159 for both. That will then truly give you everything you need.

Or change the AK for a Yugo SKS ($99) and get a new Marlin 22 ($89) that will still be under the price of a good basic 1911.


Note these prices are from Ashland Ky mostly Wal-Mart and borders guns.


I just don’t see any advantage of a 1911 at all.

Not to mention 45 acp ammo costs a lot to shoot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 6KILLER View Post
There's nothing wrong with the m1911, it is a combat proven weapon. They are however fairly expensive, and some people with small hands have difficulty with them, example my wife doesn't care for my 1911 in 10mm nor does she shoot it well. My 18 year old daughter who is 5' 10" tall, and who has large hands for a woman shoots it quite well.
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Old August 5th, 2007 #16
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I was going to buy a an m1911 type gun but now I am discouraged.
Where I live you are not allowed to have handgun mags with more than ten cartridge so I am basically limited to single stack so I thought I might get an m1911. I might get a double stack gun with a shorten ten round mag to comply with laws.

I have heard stories of .45 acp bouncing off or deflecting off of nigger skulls.
I have heard that it lacks penetration.
.22 is weak and not the most reliable because of rimfire.
.25 and .32 is illegal where I live.
.380 is just a weaker version of 9mm used by women
10mm is for hunting and defense against bears and cougars. I don't know if those types of guns are suitable against humans because of their high recoil and flash.

What gun should I buy?

Does the browning high power have the same flaws as m1911?

On gun forums the people that rave about the m1911 are patriotards that love jews and want to nuke anyone who refuses to put a jew dick in their mouth.
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Old August 5th, 2007 #17
Sean Martin
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The 44 special (although ammo is difficult to find these days) is a great handgun. I almost feel like a hypocrite because I praise auto’s so much. But Taurus makes a 44 special 5 shot revolver that is just a bit bigger than the 28 special. Easy to conceal and if you can’t kill it with 5 rounds of 44 special it isn’t going to die any easier with 10 rounds of another handgun round. The 44 special shoots the same slug as the 44 mag with just a little less power. It doesn’t have the recoil in a small framed revolver, and is actually less than a 38 special +P and safer and cheaper to shoot as well.

It also has good penetration and is just an all around good gun to shoot or carry. Not to mention the 44 slug hitting a target will discourage even the most determined iron clad zombie from outer space.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NS Cat View Post
I was going to buy a an m1911 type gun but now I am discouraged.
Where I live you are not allowed to have handgun mags with more than ten cartridge so I am basically limited to single stack so I thought I might get an m1911. I might get a double stack gun with a shorten ten round mag to comply with laws.
I don’t know about that but I do know the 45 acp has a lack of penetration unless you buy very expensive rounds. This is one of the things I like about the 40 S&W, you can buy cheap ammo and still have a good shooting gun. At Wal-Mart here 100 rounds of 40S&W’s are about $25 for the plain FMJ. They are about $27 for hollow point. Then the home defense stuff can go for as much as $2.00 a round. However I don’t think an intruder is going to be able to tell much difference between a 20 cent round and a $2.00 round.
Quote:
I have heard stories of .45 acp bouncing off or deflecting off of nigger skulls.
I have heard that it lacks penetration.
American Arms makes a 5 shot 22 LR or 22 Mag for under $200 that fits on a belt buckle, it is no longer than the palm of my hand and is a neat carry gun. Sure it may not pack the punch of larger guns but it is so small it can be carried anywhere unseen without metal detectors.

In a crunch it is much better than nothing.

I have only had 1 misfire out of a 22LR, and that was from a 10 year old (or more they were given to me and I had them for 10 years at that time) box of bulk federal. I don’t really worry about that.
Quote:
.22 is weak and not the most reliable because of rimfire.
Haven’t heard of that one before.
Quote:
.25 and .32 is illegal where I live.
Right now www.centerfiresystems.com has a 9x18 double action 8 shot auto for $99.00 and 1,000 rounds of ammo for $159. It shoots the same slug as a 9mm but just a bit less power. Great carry gun, easy to conceal and just a good all around gun in anyway.
Quote:
.380 is just a weaker version of 9mm used by women
10mm is a great round, but harder and harder to find ammo for. The 40 S&W shoots the same slug, with less recoil, flash, bang and a tad bit less penetration, which is good. Over penetration is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Get a car door at a junk yard or from a junk car and shoot through it a couple times with a 40S&W, I don’t think there will be any complaints.
Quote:
10mm is for hunting and defense against bears and cougars. I don't know if those types of guns are suitable against humans because of their high recoil and flash.
Browning makes a nice double action 9mm double stack but again for the money of a browning you can get 2-3 guns of other well known reliable brands.

Quote:
Does the browning high power have the same flaws as m1911?
They get their cues from Col Cooper, I have seen his vids and I just was never impressed. I am actually more impressed with Massad Ayoob, some Israeli but is sadly more intelligent that Cooper in guns and actual defense. Cooper goes back to WWII, while Ayoob lives in the real world today and is a cop with actual experience. Google some of his articles, I have his books and he produces some great information. He also has a show on Outdoor Life Channel called “Personal Defense TV” that comes on Wednesdays at 10 pm. Great info on everything from ATM’s to shooting at home.

It was 100 degrees here yesterday, I guarantee no one had a 45 1911 concealed. I know that because I never say anyone wearing more than a t-shirt. If a 1911 can be concealed under a t-shirt I would like to know how.
Quote:
On gun forums the people that rave about the m1911 are patriotards that love jews and want to nuke anyone who refuses to put a jew in their mouth.
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Old August 5th, 2007 #18
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Quote:
They get their cues from Col Cooper, I have seen his vids and I just was never impressed. I am actually more impressed with Massad Ayoob, some Israeli but is sadly more intelligent that Cooper in guns and actual defense. Cooper goes back to WWII, while Ayoob lives in the real world today and is a cop with actual experience. Google some of his articles, I have his books and he produces some great information. He also has a show on Outdoor Life Channel called “Personal Defense TV” that comes on Wednesdays at 10 pm. Great info on everything from ATM’s to shooting at home.
I would feel very uncomfortable taking advice from a jew, even if he is telling the truth.
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Old August 5th, 2007 #19
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I think he is actually Arab instead of Jewish. The first time I heard of him was in 1995, I remember because I was talking about how the place I work burned to the ground the day before. We were talking about books and such on those types of subjects. All of the sudden some people bring up Massad and I said I wouldn’t listen to an Israeli Kike. A couple years ago I was in a used book store and found some of his books on home defense and such, since they were only a dollar each I bought them.

I brought them home and read them expecting to tear them apart because I expected the macho gun forum talk that I despised. Instead he spoke of things in a no-nonsense manner that made sense. There was nothing in the book that I could pick apart. Then I spent some time conflicted, but I had several issues of “Backwoods Home” magazine that had several of his articles in it. I begin to read them finally and all of the sudden his show began coming on television.

I don’t know if he is Jew or Arab but as much as I hate to admit his information is some of the best basic no-nonsense information out there.

Google some of his articles online and tell me what you think?

Actually here is some good info on him. He tells you how to deal with police and much more information on owning guns and what types to buy.


http://www.backwoodshome.com/ayoob_index.html


Quote:
Avoiding legal traps Issue #105

Traveling iron Issue #104

The subtleties of safe firearms handling Issue #103

When wild animals invade your homestead Issue #102

Frontier style handguns for the modern backwoods home Issue #101

Centennial of the All-American .30-06 Issue #100

How big a gun do you need? Issue #99

The All American Ruger 10/22 Rifle Issue #98

Answering some well asked questions about personal defense Issue #97

SOCOM-16: The ultimate “ranch rifle.” Issue #96

Marlin 336: The other classic backwoods home deer rifle. Issue #95

Females and firearms Issue #94

Choose your ammo...police style Issue #93

Winchester ‘94: the classic backwoods home deer rifle Issue #92

Firearms: tools of rural living Issue #91

Armed civilians can help fight terrorism Issue #90

Small Town America: Live Oak, Florida Issue #90

Common sense about burglary prevention Issue #89

The pump shotgun: a backwoods home classic Issue #88

Body language and threat recognition Issue #87

Lower level force options for self-defense Issue #86

Firearms handling refresher Part III: Rifles Website Exclusive

Firearms handling refresher Part II: Shotguns Website Exclusive

How to shoot a handgun accurately Issue #85

Firearms handling refresher Part I: Handguns Website Exclusive

On a quiet holiday, a cop gives thanks Issue #84

1911: the classic homeland security pistol Issue #83

Shooting left-handed Issue #82

In time of war: The Israeli answer to terrorism Issue #81

A 24/7 backwoods handgun Issue #80

Firearms and cold weather considerations Issue #79

What's this "Glock" thing all about? Issue #78

Reflections on the Second Amendment Issue #77

Getting along with the cops Issue #76

Political activism, backwoods style Issue #75

Sensible gun choices after September 11th and Reality confirms arming pilots Issue #74

What’s next? What can you do? Issue #73

Do rural homeowners need guns for self defense? Issue #72

Armed citizens: the deterrent factor BHM Web Site Exclusive


Sight and sound enhancement Issue #71

The rationale of the automatic rifle Issue #70

Picking a holster Issue #69

Of kids and guns Issue #68

Taurus plinking rifle: a blast from the past Issue #67

The armed private business Issue #66

Against a rapist Issue #65

Shoot what you’re used to Issue #65

Bear Medicine, Lessons from the Winter nationals Issue #64

Armed and Female Issue #63

Remembering Y2K Issue #63

Cheap guns are good enough Issue #62

Home on the range Issue #61

Defending your lifestyle Issue #60

“Best buy” Backwoods .45 Issue #59

Home on the range with a .357 Issue #58

Rifles, shotguns, and handguns for Y2K and beyond Issue #57

What if they break down my door? Issue #56




The Myths of Armageddon Issue #55

Home handgun defense: simplicity suffices Issue #54

National junior handgun championships Issue #53

Is this the ultimate backwoods home rifle? — Part 1 Issue #52

Four X .44 — the logical backwoods handgun Issue #51

Coping with gun control in paradise Issue #50

A cop's advice to those home alone Issue #49

Old guns for the old homestead Issue #48

Kids, values, and “Junior Shooting” Issue #47

Mossberg Model 500: the backwoods shotgun Issue #46

The M1A — a rifle that makes a statement Issue #45

Here are some answers to often asked questions of Anti-Gunners Issue #45

Accessable to you, but not the kids Issue #44

Teaching your lady to shoot Issue #43

The best deal in home-defense guns> Issue #42

The backwoods hunter Issue #41

The price of machismo Issue #40

The Marlin Model 60 — It's the classic backwoods home rifle Issue #39

My choice for the ideal backwoods gun is the four-inch .44 Magnum handgun Issue #37

Selecting the backwoods battery Issue #36

Create your own shooting range Issue #35

Effective rounds for the backwoods: Ammunition Issue #34

The price of self defense Issue #33

Defensive Deadly Force — the ground rules Issue #32

Backwoods Firearms Issue #31
Doesn't tell his race.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob

Quote:
Originally Posted by NS Cat View Post
I would feel very uncomfortable taking advice from a jew, even if he is telling the truth.


I truly understand where you are coming from and I said much worse than you just said a decade to the people who recomended him to me.
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Old August 5th, 2007 #20
Sean Martin
......
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 9,397
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Cheap guns are good enough

By Massad Ayoob


More than 10 years ago, my friend Mark Seiden called me in on a murder case in Miami that Janet Reno, then State’s Attorney for the county in question, had ordered prosecuted. A woman named Mary Hopkin had killed her common law husband, a man named James Yarolem.

James was in his forties. Mary was 63. Her life had been hard, and when she found a younger man who convinced her he loved her, she took him into her home. This did not turn out to be a wise decision.

Mary worked. Jim didn’t. He drank and smoked up all the money she brought in. He abused her, with the classic escalation. First, verbal derisiveness. Then the shove with the palm. Then the slap of the open hand. Then the blow of the closed fist. The time came when she confronted him and said, “Jim, you drink all my beer, and you smoke all my cigarettes, and you won’t get a job, and … I think it’s time you left.” Even then, being in the classic denial pattern of a battered significant other, she couldn’t bring herself to say, “Oh, and by the way, you beat the crap out of me whenever you feel like it.”

She didn’t need to say it. Jim didn’t handle her declaration well. He began to beat her up with more vigor than before. She went to call the police, and Jim ripped the telephone out of the wall, wrapped the phone cord around her neck, and strangled her unconscious. He left her for dead and went off to the nearest bar. When Mary awoke, she crawled—she couldn’t walk on her arthritic and aging legs, she crawled—to the nearest trailer to hers and when she got there blurted, “Call the police.”

The cops arrived. When Jim came back Metro-Dade officers were there. They arrested him. When they dragged him away, the cops testified later, he was screaming “Mary, you f---in’ bitch, I’ll kill you for this!”

Very soon thereafter, he was out on bail and he came to make good his threat. By now, Mary was in terror of him, and had borrowed from her son the cheapest revolver available, an RG .22. The RG is the gun that Handgun Control Inc. is trying to talk about when they rail on about “Saturday Night Specials.” If you left it on a hot stove it might melt.

Jim pounded on the door like the big bad wolf. “Mary, let me in!” “Jim,” she answered, “I know what you’re going to do! I have a gun! I won’t let you kill me! Go away! Don’t make me shoot you!”

He didn’t listen. He smashed the door off its hinges and came at her, and she fired three shots. All three .22 bullets hit him. He turned and ran, got about 20 feet, and collapsed and died. To make a long story short, she was charged with murder.


She had no money. Mark Seiden, her attorney, took her case anyway. Mark was a former homicide cop for Metro-Dade before he became a lawyer. I did what he did, after he called me. I took the case pro bono, at no charge. After I spent an hour with Mark on direct examination explaining to the jury why she had no choice but to shoot, I took out the prosecutor in a little less than a minute of cross examination. The jury was quick, too: they took about two hours to acquit her of all charges.

I remember this, and I flash forward to yesterday, at one of the regularly scheduled qualifications for my police department. I shot a gun the agency has already approved as optional and is thinking of adopting for standard issue, the Ruger P97 that I’ve written about in this column before. This .45 automatic recently put 60 bullets into less than 3.5 inches during a timed FBI-style shooting qualification. I am authorized to carry whatever pistol I want, including my custom $3500 “LFI Special” Colt .45 automatic. Instead, right now, I carry this $460 Ruger. The qualification also encompassed the .223 rifle. I didn’t shoot that with the $2,000 custom CAR-15 from Olympic Arms that I’m authorized to carry; I shot it with our department issue Ruger Mini-14 .223 that would cost you only a few hundred bucks. Price one at Wal-Mart or K-Mart and you’ll see, though I’d rather you spent a couple bucks more and bought it from a gun dealer who supports your Second Amendment rights, which is why I buy my guns at gunshops instead of Monster Marts. But, I digress.

The pistol course required 60 shots. All 60 went center and I scored 100%. The rifle course was 50 shots, actually 45 with the rifle including half a dozen head-shots, and another five rounds with the pistol in “rifle-to-handgun-transition.” These “cheap guns” gave me a 99.6% score that wouldn’t have been different with my more expensive guns, because it was me who jerked the trigger and blew the shot that cost me one point.

My department regulations allow me to carry a custom made rifle that costs several thousands of dollars with me in the patrol car. I used to do that. Frankly, I don’t bother anymore. Each of our cruisers contains the Mini-14 for any of our officers to access, and to be blunt, it does the same job just about as well.

The last time I carried my $3500 custom pistol in uniform was a couple of years ago. I and some other officers were working security for a double police funeral where it was feared that the cop-killer—who himself was slain by police on the day of the murders—might have friends who would want to avenge him by harming any of the several thousand police officers in attendance for the funeral. We who covered the perimeter were ordered that we couldn’t have rifles evident, for fear of people being frightened and made paranoid. I carried that expensive .45 pistol that day because I knew that with 185-grain +P hollowpoints, it would hit what I aimed at from 100 yards if something went down in the wide-open venues that ranged from a downtown cortege to the burial at the equally wide-open cemetery.

Nothing happened. The cop-killer, it turned out, had been a lone wolf. After it was over, I went to the firing range and tested my department issue Ruger P90 .45 automatic. It shot eight rounds for eight into a man-size target at 100 yards. It would have done the job all along.

So, what’s the lesson? It’s simple, really, and it touches deeply upon the values that make you read publications like Backwoods Home Magazine.

Simple can be as good as fancy, and is sometimes better. Inexpensive can be as good as expensive, and sometimes is better. “Reliability” is more important than “esoteric” in the final balance. Something cheap, now when you need it, beats hell out of something costly that you have to save up for, to buy later, when it may be too late. “Something is generally better than nothing.”

Mary Hopkin couldn’t have afforded an expensive gun. If she had needed $800 to buy a state of the art defensive pistol, she wouldn’t have had it, and she would have died. She would have been another statistic.

If you are familiar with the dynamics of protecting the innocent from violent evil, you already know that, insofar as the context in which it was presented here. And, even if you don’t like guns at all, you can understand how this is an allegory to the whole lifestyle, the whole set of values, that are celebrated in Backwoods Home Magazine.


http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob62.html
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