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Old July 24th, 2005 #1
Heathen Wolf
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Default Tyr vs Odin

Tyr vs Odin
War and Justice Versus War and Death

(from Overthrow.com)

Commentary -- In the past, I've written about modern day Odinists who seem to confuse Odin with Jesus Christ -- praying to Odin for salvation and whatnot -- when the characteristics of the Norse Gods are so radically different from those of the Christian that such prayers are laughable nonsense -- the product of a mind so absolutely polluted with destructive culture that even when they adopt alternative symbolism they are unable to abandon the corrupt substance of modern Judaic society.
In further of a discussion of the true natures of the Norse Gods, I think it is instructive to discuss the differences between the two classic Nordic- Germanic-Old English war gods, Odin and Tyr. Thor, being a warrior, but not, properly, a war God, will be set aside for purposes of this discussion. The differences between Odin and Tyr are significant. Odin appears to have taken his position as war god as a derivative of his role as God of Death. Tyr's involvement in war derived from his position as God of Justice. Thus one sees two very different conceptions of war, and two very different Gods emerge.

Tyr is generally recognized as the original head of the Nordic pantheon, with Odin usurping him as lead God later on. There are also conflicting myths regarding the position of Odin and Thor, with Thor sometimes described as the father of Odin, and Odin sometimes described as the father of Thor. However, dating back to at least the second century BC, it appears that the worship of Tyr was dominant in the field of war, with Odin taking a predominant role in warfare starting aroud the fifth or sixth century AD.

Tyr's role as God of War was derived from his role as God of Justice, and the blurring of the two roles reveals a unity of the two ideas among the Germanic cultures. Tyr's original role in violence was in the punishing of criminals; his role as a war god came from the conception of war as an extension of the system of justice in which criminals were punished. One's opponents in war were essentially no different from the common criminal. Just as the common criminal preyed on society alone, committing crimes for personal gain, opposing warriors were seen as criminals, likewise preying on the community for personal gain. Thus, one sees in the ceremonies devoted to Tyr and his equivalents among the Germanic peoples the mass execution of captured opponents, often combined with the mass destruction of their military gear -- the shattering of opposing swords, the destruction of coats of mail, et cetera. No quarter was given to criminals, and no quarter was given to organized groups of criminals waging war on the community.

Odin, who came to dominance in the field of warfare later in Germanic history, and who now enjoys so much popularity among those who don't seem to know him very well, derived his role in war from his role as God of Death. The original valkyries appear to have been woman worshippers of Odin whose job was to select prisoners, criminals, and occassionally members of the communtiy for sacrifice, and to slaughter them. As late as the 11th century AD, Christian missionaries to Scandinavia were speaking out against those real woman -- not mythical figures -- whose role was to select men to die. The conception of them as spiritual beings actively participating in battle appears to have developed later, possibly from an identity with the Norns or fates -- women who decided the outcomes of all things, including battles.

As God of Death, the belief developed that Odin chose who in battle would die. In this role, Odin was a deceptive figure, and a liar. He often betrayed his followers and condemned them to death in battle, even after promising them victory. He also occasionally demanded his followers ritually kill themselves in sacrifice to them, in exchange for the many murders in war he had allowed them to commit in the past. The Vikings, the Anglo-Saxons, and the other tribes of the German Wandervolkerrung came to worship Death, and not Justice, as the Lord of Battle, and Odin began to supplant Tyr.

Thus, when I see someone -- such as a white activist prisoners -- praying to "Odin" for mercy, for release from prison, for inner strength to suffer through adversity, etc, I find such things laughable. The "prayer" is completely inappropriate. One would be better off asking Odin for the strength to murder one's enemies, and be willing to offer one's own life, in ritual sacrifice, in exchange. Odin is said, actually, to have once granted that exact prayer, burying an entire opposing army under an earthquake, in exchange for the life of the king, pledged ten years from the date of the victory.

Odin's betrayal of his followers did not merely involved demands of sacrifice or the granting of victory to opposing armies. It also involved more subtle trickery, as in the case of the beserkers. The beserkers were men who were granted the temporary immunity from harm in battle. They would charge their enemies, sometimes turning into wolves or bears in the process, and murder many, and no matter how they were injured, it would have no effect on them. Entire warrior communities of this nature developed, with rules sets as to the conduct of the men inside, and with all women excluded -- the rape part of rape and pillage being the only permittable sexual expression. However, it was widely known among the Vikings that such men were both honored and cursed, because it was common, when their immunity faded, to find that the price of Odin's blessing was that they were mortally wounded, or forever crippled, by the blows that they had been unable to experience while beserk.

So how would a true follower of Odin, as opposed to Tyr or Thor, behave? Quite contrary to what many Odinists express.

The follower of Odin is deceptive in the pursuit of his goals, which should include harvesting the best warriors of his people by leading them to their deaths. The Aryan ideal of truth-telling is unknown in Odinism; betrayal of one's trusted followers and comrades, when such seems advantageous, would be a more correct way to emulate the God. Courage was displayed among Odin's followers only because Odin used it to make them vessels by which he could inflict greater death on others; the display of courage would not be a proper imitation of reflection of the God's conduct. At the end of the pagan period among the Germanic and Nordic peoples, the character and courage displayed in battle by Odin's followers came to elevate Odin and attribute to him such ideals, though such ideals are absent from the purer form of Odinic worship. Odin is a death god and the proper manner in which to worship him is to murder as many as possible before giving one's own life to him violently. For this reason, Odin is said to have been the God of Kings, while Thor and Tyr were left to the thrall.

One important distinction in his role as God of Death is the contrast between his role and the role of Hel. Odin is the God of those who died violently, and in his hall for warriors (there is a separate hall for good men, and a separate hall from which Odin viewed the world), he collected those who died violently. Those who died of old age or disease, and who were not qualified for the separate heaven (well, hall, but similar concept), for good men, went to Hel, where their individuality was ignomoniously integrated into a shadow of nothingness. Ironically, it is from Hel that Balder, son of Odin, is to emerge at the end of time to lead and create a new Golden Age in the world. Balder's storage in Hel, for lack of a better term, seems to be protective in nature, as the halls he would likely deserve are to be destroyed in Ragna Rokkr.

Classic Aryan idealism is absent in the true worship of Odin. Those who seek justice, protection, or the rewarding of strength and charater will find them much more in the worship of Thor and Tyr. Odin is a God of lies and death, and the conception of war that embraces him is one of war as an extension of politics, and not that of the folkish war for the defense of one's people against outside criminals.

http://www.overthrow.com/lsn/news.asp?articleID=8315
 
Old July 24th, 2005 #2
Aryan Lord
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(from Overthrow.com)

Commentary -- In the past, I've written about modern day Odinists who seem to confuse Odin with Jesus Christ -- praying to Odin for salvation and whatnot -- when the characteristics of the Norse Gods are so radically different from those of the Christian that such prayers are laughable nonsense --


What nonsense is this? I know of no Odinists who confuse Odin with the jew on a stick.


the product of a mind so absolutely polluted with destructive culture that even when they adopt alternative symbolism they are unable to abandon the corrupt substance of modern Judaic society.
In further of a discussion of the true natures of the Norse Gods, I think it is instructive to discuss the differences between the two classic Nordic- Germanic-Old English war gods, Odin and Tyr.


There is no nead to create seperate categories for the English and Norse-they are both Germanic cultures.


Thor, being a warrior, but not, properly, a war God, will be set aside for purposes of this discussion.


Why do you "set aside" Thor in this arbitary way? Not only Odin and Tyr but both Thor and Frey had war god attributes.You cannot place the Germanic gods into such arbitary classifications as the Greeks and Romans did.

The differences between Odin and Tyr are significant. Odin appears to have taken his position as war god as a derivative of his role as God of Death. Tyr's involvement in war derived from his position as God of Justice. Thus one sees two very different conceptions of war, and two very different Gods emerge.


Tyr was the original Germanic sky god and there is evidence that he predates Odin,a later usurper.

Tyr is generally recognized as the original head of the Nordic pantheon, with Odin usurping him as lead God later on. There are also conflicting myths regarding the position of Odin and Thor, with Thor sometimes described as the father of Odin, and Odin sometimes described as the father of Thor. However, dating back to at least the second century BC, it appears that the worship of Tyr was dominant in the field of war, with Odin taking a predominant role in warfare starting aroud the fifth or sixth century AD.

Tyr's role as God of War was derived from his role as God of Justice,


How do you square this with Forseti who was Balder`s and Nanna`s son,the god of justice,presiding over arguments etc?


and the blurring of the two roles reveals a unity of the two ideas among the Germanic cultures. Tyr's original role in violence was in the punishing of criminals; his role as a war god came from the conception of war as an extension of the system of justice in which criminals were punished. One's opponents in war were essentially no different from the common criminal. Just as the common criminal preyed on society alone, committing crimes for personal gain, opposing warriors were seen as criminals, likewise preying on the community for personal gain. Thus, one sees in the ceremonies devoted to Tyr and his equivalents among the Germanic peoples the mass execution of captured opponents, often combined with the mass destruction of their military gear -- the shattering of opposing swords, the destruction of coats of mail, et cetera. No quarter was given to criminals, and no quarter was given to organized groups of criminals waging war on the community.

Odin, who came to dominance in the field of warfare later in Germanic history, and who now enjoys so much popularity among those who don't seem to know him very well, derived his role in war from his role as God of Death. The original valkyries appear to have been woman worshippers of Odin whose job was to select prisoners, criminals, and occassionally members of the communtiy for sacrifice, and to slaughter them.


Where is the evidence for this? Source material?


As late as the 11th century AD, Christian missionaries to Scandinavia were speaking out against those real woman -- not mythical figures -- whose role was to select men to die. The conception of them as spiritual beings actively participating in battle appears to have developed later, possibly from an identity with the Norns or fates -- women who decided the outcomes of all things, including battles.

As God of Death, the belief developed that Odin chose who in battle would die. In this role, Odin was a deceptive figure, and a liar. He often betrayed his followers and condemned them to death in battle, even after promising them victory. He also occasionally demanded his followers ritually kill themselves in sacrifice to them, in exchange for the many murders in war he had allowed them to commit in the past. The Vikings, the Anglo-Saxons, and the other tribes of the German Wandervolkerrung came to worship Death, and not Justice, as the Lord of Battle, and Odin began to supplant Tyr.

Thus, when I see someone -- such as a white activist prisoners -- praying to "Odin" for mercy, for release from prison, for inner strength to suffer through adversity, etc, I find such things laughable. The "prayer" is completely inappropriate. One would be better off asking Odin for the strength to murder one's enemies, and be willing to offer one's own life, in ritual sacrifice, in exchange. Odin is said, actually, to have once granted that exact prayer, burying an entire opposing army under an earthquake, in exchange for the life of the king, pledged ten years from the date of the victory.

Odin's betrayal of his followers did not merely involved demands of sacrifice or the granting of victory to opposing armies. It also involved more subtle trickery, as in the case of the beserkers. The beserkers were men who were granted the temporary immunity from harm in battle. They would charge their enemies, sometimes turning into wolves or bears in the process, and murder many, and no matter how they were injured, it would have no effect on them. Entire warrior communities of this nature developed, with rules sets as to the conduct of the men inside, and with all women excluded -- the rape part of rape and pillage being the only permittable sexual expression. However, it was widely known among the Vikings that such men were both honored and cursed, because it was common, when their immunity faded, to find that the price of Odin's blessing was that they were mortally wounded, or forever crippled, by the blows that they had been unable to experience while beserk.

So how would a true follower of Odin, as opposed to Tyr or Thor, behave? Quite contrary to what many Odinists express.

The follower of Odin is deceptive in the pursuit of his goals, which should include harvesting the best warriors of his people by leading them to their deaths. The Aryan ideal of truth-telling is unknown in Odinism;


This is nonsense.A complete misrepresetation of the nature of Odinism and the Aryan warrior spirit.


betrayal of one's trusted followers and comrades, when such seems advantageous, would be a more correct way to emulate the God. Courage was displayed among Odin's followers only because Odin used it to make them vessels by which he could inflict greater death on others; the display of courage would not be a proper imitation of reflection of the God's conduct. At the end of the pagan period among the Germanic and Nordic peoples, the character and courage displayed in battle by Odin's followers came to elevate Odin and attribute to him such ideals, though such ideals are absent from the purer form of Odinic worship. Odin is a death god and the proper manner in which to worship him is to murder as many as possible before giving one's own life to him violently. For this reason, Odin is said to have been the God of Kings, while Thor and Tyr were left to the thrall.

One important distinction in his role as God of Death is the contrast between his role and the role of Hel. Odin is the God of those who died violently, and in his hall for warriors (there is a separate hall for good men, and a separate hall from which Odin viewed the world), he collected those who died violently. Those who died of old age or disease, and who were not qualified for the separate heaven (well, hall, but similar concept), for good men, went to Hel, where their individuality was ignomoniously integrated into a shadow of nothingness.


No,"good men" did not go to hel.That was the abode of the herd,those who led undistinguished lives as the masses do today.Entrance into either Valhalla or hel had nothing to do with the xtian idea of "goodness".


Ironically, it is from Hel that Balder, son of Odin, is to emerge at the end of time to lead and create a new Golden Age in the world. Balder's storage in Hel, for lack of a better term, seems to be protective in nature, as the halls he would likely deserve are to be destroyed in Ragna Rokkr.

Classic Aryan idealism is absent in the true worship of Odin. Those who seek justice, protection, or the rewarding of strength and charater will find them much more in the worship of Thor and Tyr. Odin is a God of lies and death, and the conception of war that embraces him is one of war as an extension of politics, and not that of the folkish war for the defense of one's people against outside criminals.

http://www.overthrow.com/lsn/news.asp?articleID=8315[/QUOTE]

This has to be the biggest amount of bullshit I have ever read on "Odinism".
 
Old July 24th, 2005 #3
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That farticle reeks of much b.s. I never knew a Odinist that would drag his God throught the mud like that. Odin is set on the bigger picture which goes beyond a temporal battle, his tale is one of constant sarcrifice for the greater good of the whole. And when dealing with humans who have a big petty streak that conflicts with there selfish wants at the time seems as being cheated. Odin does not betray for he keeps his word and gives his warriors eternal life at his side in the great hall, the greatest victory of all,to fight along side him in the final battle. Odin is beyond the current ideal of good and evil. If one looks deep enough into the tales they will find the science of godhood.

I think that Odin and the other Gods are a memory of different things and a flicker of rememberance of the Eldar who created and ruled the Aryan Race long ago in the distance twilight of the prehistoric era of our Race.

Odinism needs to stop being a reaction to christianity.
 
Old July 24th, 2005 #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JesusFreak
That farticle reeks of much b.s. I never knew a Odinist that would drag his God throught the mud like that. Odin is set on the bigger picture which goes beyond a temporal battle, his tale is one of constant sarcrifice for the greater good of the whole. And when dealing with humans who have a big petty streak that conflicts with there selfish wants at the time seems as being cheated. Odin does not betray for he keeps his word and gives his warriors eternal life at his side in the great hall, the greatest victory of all,to fight along side him in the final battle. Odin is beyond the current ideal of good and evil. If one looks deep enough into the tales they will find the science of godhood.

I think that Odin and the other Gods are a memory of different things and a flicker of rememberance of the Eldar who created and ruled the Aryan Race long ago in the distance twilight of the prehistoric era of our Race.

Odinism needs to stop being a reaction to christianity.

Agreed.I believe that Odin is the prototype of Aryan man and we as Aryans are His descendants.
He dwells in our blood for he is encoded in our DNA and whilst the Ario-Germanic race lives He lives.Whilst He lives our race lives.The two are one.
 
Old July 25th, 2005 #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JesusFreak
I think that Odin and the other Gods are a memory of different things and a flicker of rememberance of the Eldar who created and ruled the Aryan Race long ago in the distance twilight of the prehistoric era of our Race.
Eldar? Weren't they elves in Tolkien's book Silmarillion?
 
Old July 25th, 2005 #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aryan Lord
Agreed.I believe that Odin is the prototype of Aryan man and we as Aryans are His descendants.
He dwells in our blood for he is encoded in our DNA and whilst the Ario-Germanic race lives He lives.Whilst He lives our race lives.The two are one.
Agree. However, Odin did replace Tyr as Bill White notes, and Odin was originally a kind of shaman god and God of Death; there are some incidents where Odin does indeed appear to incite people to war simply to have more war and death.

Odin changed over time. He contains different "aspects", as do all Gods who have been around for any length of time and become popular. So there's a sliver of truth in what Bill White says about Odin, but as usual he goes overboard and turns one (very old, probably marginal) aspect of Odin into the only, or the primary, aspect of Odin, which is not the case.

I wonder where he gets the idea that modern Odinists pray to Odin like Christians pray to Jesus; that's a rather wacky opinion and I've never encountered any Odinists who believed such nonsense.
 
Old July 25th, 2005 #7
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Forgot to add, many of the kings of various Anglo-Saxon kingdoms in England claimed direct linneal descent from Odin/Woden. Odin was a kind of royal God, more worshipped by the aristocracy, whereas Thor was more of a common man's God.

No way in Hel that a God of royalty and kingly rule would negate Justice and exult Death. That might have been Odin's original entre into Deity, but once Odin was a god of royalty, justice became his province just as it had been Tyr's.

In fact, Bill White forgets that Odin's spear, Gugnir, is a symbol of justice! When Odin took over Tyr's role as King of the Gods, he took over everything about that role, including the King's role of dispenser of justice.

I am also disturbed by Bill White's rather Jewish view of "war as justice" with the victorious side trying and executing their defeated rivals as "war criminals". This type of thinking is straight out of the Old Testament, and is Jewish.

In reality wars amongst the ancient Germans and other Aryans were seen more as a kind of sport; deadly seriously, and bloody, but having little to do with "justice". The defeated foe was honored if he fought honorably, and was never considered evil merely for being a foe; was only considered evil if he behaved dishonorably.
 
Old July 25th, 2005 #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grep14w
Forgot to add, many of the kings of various Anglo-Saxon kingdoms in England claimed direct linneal descent from Odin/Woden. Odin was a kind of royal God, more worshipped by the aristocracy, whereas Thor was more of a common man's God.

No way in Hel that a God of royalty and kingly rule would negate Justice and exult Death. That might have been Odin's original entre into Deity, but once Odin was a god of royalty, justice became his province just as it had been Tyr's.

In fact, Bill White forgets that Odin's spear, Gugnir, is a symbol of justice! When Odin took over Tyr's role as King of the Gods, he took over everything about that role, including the King's role of dispenser of justice.

I am also disturbed by Bill White's rather Jewish view of "war as justice" with the victorious side trying and executing their defeated rivals as "war criminals". This type of thinking is straight out of the Old Testament, and is Jewish.

In reality wars amongst the ancient Germans and other Aryans were seen more as a kind of sport; deadly seriously, and bloody, but having little to do with "justice". The defeated foe was honored if he fought honorably, and was never considered evil merely for being a foe; was only considered evil if he behaved dishonorably.
Wise words.
Indeed the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles demonstrate quite clearly that the English kings are descended from Woden.It is remarkable that the chronicles were written at a time when England was already xtianised and yet the princes were proud of their pagan origins.
 
Old July 25th, 2005 #9
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On earth's broad racial threshing floor the meek are beaten straw. . . .

Most wars through history have been fought over territory. You need territory to survive. Only those who have been willing to go to war to defend and increase their territory, willing to go to war to survive and increase the chances of survival, have passed on their genes. So we don't have to read too much into our willingness to wage war.... "Right" and "wrong" is the wrong morality here. "Survival" is the morality to use.


Odin: in every story he appears in, he is wise and acts in a manner anyone would be proud of. He defeats the elves (yes, elves, from Elfheim) when they have temporarily taken Valhalla, then negotiates a just peace. He goes adventuring with Thor and Loki among the mortals. He tolerates Loki for a long time, then hunts him down and shackles him when he kills Baldur. (Whereas Thor, when they are pushing the burning ship that is Baldur's funeral pyre out from the shore, kicks a dwarf so he lands on the ship and goes with it. The only dishonorable act I have ever seen attributed to Thor, Odin or Tyr, though a funny one.) He leads the gods in the final battle, and dies heroically when fighting the Fenris Wolf to protect the other gods from the beast they had all failed to control earlier.

I don't see anything dishonorable in the stories about Odin. That essay does a poor job twisting the stories about him.
 
Old July 25th, 2005 #10
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Originally Posted by Aryan Lord
(........

This has to be the biggest amount of bullshit I have ever read on "Odinism".
Well regard who was the author, none other than Anarchy Bill White.
 
Old July 27th, 2005 #11
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"Thus, one sees in the ceremonies devoted to Tyr and his equivalents among the Germanic peoples the mass execution of captured opponents, often combined with the mass destruction of their military gear -- the shattering of opposing swords, the destruction of coats of mail, et cetera. "


This sentence alone is enough to make me question anything the article says. Swords were so incredibly valuable that they were often handed down through many generations, sometimes for centuries. Likewise, a coat of mail was one of the most treasured items a man could own. I've been working on a mail shirt for over a YEAR now, and that's with modern tools and store-bought wire. Think what a skilled craftsman would have charged in labor alone.
 
Old July 27th, 2005 #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngrh8r
"Thus, one sees in the ceremonies devoted to Tyr and his equivalents among the Germanic peoples the mass execution of captured opponents, often combined with the mass destruction of their military gear -- the shattering of opposing swords, the destruction of coats of mail, et cetera. "


This sentence alone is enough to make me question anything the article says. Swords were so incredibly valuable that they were often handed down through many generations, sometimes for centuries. Likewise, a coat of mail was one of the most treasured items a man could own. I've been working on a mail shirt for over a YEAR now, and that's with modern tools and store-bought wire. Think what a skilled craftsman would have charged in labor alone.
Exactly.

Even disregarding the ridiculous notion of destroying captured weapons, where does Bill White get this ludicrous notion of the ancient Germanic peoples conducting "Nuremburg War Crime Trials" against their defeated foes? The idea that worshippers of Tyr acted like a bunch of crazed Jews and Judeo-Christians is absurd. The defeated might have been killed or enslaved, but no ancient Aryan peoples would have gone through the absurd ritual of acting as "judge jury and executioner" of the defeated, for the mere "crime" of being on the losing side in a war. Unlike the modern deluded Judeo-Christian American, they would not have considered being a "loser" to be equivalent to being "evil".
 
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