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Old May 8th, 2007 #141
Ural
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Originally Posted by Slamin2 View Post
- 2 million killed in shootings (East)
- 800,000 died in ghettos and camps of various causes
- 2.5 million killed in gas chambers

800 000 died in ghettos and camps? How many died in ghettos? Don't you think it's kinda strange they are counted together.

2 mil in shooting East - what exactly is East?
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Old May 9th, 2007 #142
T. Kadijevic
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Originally Posted by Slamin2 View Post
Crematoriums at Auschwitz - ever hear of them?
What is the bodies per hour capacity on one crematorium? How long does it take for those bodies to burn down enough to dispose of. Wouldn't anybody (like secret service) report these mass cremations to outside of Europe DURING the time it happened and not 20 years later?

Check this link out....same typical rhetoric, but look at the image of the oven. You honestly think that can dispose of as many bodies as you say? How about the time to clean them out and scrub them down to make sure they work at 100% peak efficiency?

http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/...ationcamps.htm

I understand (as I hope you do too) that crematoriums were designed to suppress exhaust (smoke), so why in typical hollywood fashion is black smoke billowing out the stack imaged together with a line up of jewish inmated heading in?
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Old May 9th, 2007 #143
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Originally Posted by Wodjanoj View Post
What is the bodies per hour capacity on one crematorium? How long does it take for those bodies to burn down enough to dispose of. Wouldn't anybody (like secret service) report these mass cremations to outside of Europe DURING the time it happened and not 20 years later?

Check this link out....same typical rhetoric, but look at the image of the oven. You honestly think that can dispose of as many bodies as you say? How about the time to clean them out and scrub them down to make sure they work at 100% peak efficiency?

http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/...ationcamps.htm

I understand (as I hope you do too) that crematoriums were designed to suppress exhaust (smoke), so why in typical hollywood fashion is black smoke billowing out the stack imaged together with a line up of jewish inmated heading in?
Don't know much about the Holocaust do you?

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...highlight=topf

Topf documents regarding capacity of crematoriums.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...highlight=topf

Testimony from Topf engineers

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...highlight=topf

Just for kicks - here are some witnesses to the gas chambers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ural View Post
800 000 died in ghettos and camps? How many died in ghettos? Don't you think it's kinda strange they are counted together.
I think its strange that no revisionist wants to give an alternative body count.

Quote:
2 mil in shooting East - what exactly is East?
Soviet Union

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subrosa View Post
You stupid motherfucker. Leuchter was/is the formost authority on execution methods. HE FUCKING DESIGNED GAS CHAMBERS!!!!!!
What gas chamber did he design? Do you have the drawings?

No? Didn't think so.
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Old May 9th, 2007 #144
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Anyone care to take a stab at this document?

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2.../ostrow2-1.jpg

It reads: "OK Ostrow reports that the Jews in Treblinka are not sufficiently buried and therefore an unbearable smell of corpses befouls the air."51

Ostrow, it is significant to point out, was 20 kilometres from Treblinka.

Oh, BTW

"The document certainly isn't forged. For starters, this is a single page of an extensive war diary (Kriegstagebuch) that was filled out on official Kriegstagebuch paper and would be signed at the start, if they were especially busy they might even add a signature saying 'seen' from the commanding general or relevant staff officer other than the war diarist, who would be a junior lieutenant.

This is the Wehrmacht we are dealing with here and everything on that page conforms to Wehrmacht protocols and can be paralleled in countless other war diaries. 'Conform' doesn't mean that every units wrote their war diaries identically - it just means that within the range of styles this one fits like a glove.

Ditto the subject matter. It was not unusual for the Wehrmacht in the Generalgouvernement to write little notes to itself in its KTBs, monthly reports etc, about what was going on with the Jews. This wasn't its main job when writing reports - just an indication that what was happening was happening in full view of a very sizeable garrison.

In Warsaw at this time, there was a captain who went on to be the subject of the film 'The Pianist'. He wrote a diary which has since been published and he knew exactly what was going on. A corporal stationed in Galicia likewise was able to discern what was going on and arranged to pass by Belzec on the train; he also picked up hints from the surrounding area's garrisons including SS men. (this is the Cornides diary excerpt you may have seen or ought to Google)

The usual rule of thumb with any document that someone might wish to declare a forgery is this: if it was produced for an immediate political purpose and was an isolated example of a document, then it may well be a forgery. Zinoviev letter, Donation of Constantine, etc.

In this instance we have a casual reference in a standard war diary of which hundred survive (and hundreds do not). The document was not consulted until 1965 at the earliest - indeed it barely could be consulted until then, because it stems from the Captured German Records which were restituted to BA-MA Freiburg after being microfilmed in the US. In 1965 a German historian wrote up an article on the Wehrmacht in the Generalgouvernement and may well have referred to this document (if not then it was referred to even later; but the document was public-access by 1965).
I have not seen any reference to this document in the Stangl-Treblinka judgement so it does not seem to have been used for a trial purpose. Even if it had, then the BRD investigators could not be accused of having forged it because copies of everything were still in the US.

If the US had forged it then they would have used it, but there was actually no need to - because the US never tried anyone in relation to Treblinka. Thus this conjecture fails the test of Occam's Razor. No one manufactures a fabrication for it to lie fallow for 10-15 years or more. If they do, then they come up with something better than this."
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Old May 9th, 2007 #145
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It reads: "OK Ostrow reports that the Jews in Treblinka are not sufficiently buried and therefore an unbearable smell of corpses befouls the air."51


OK means Oberkommandant. It's a name
 
Old May 10th, 2007 #146
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Originally Posted by tuisto View Post
It reads: "OK Ostrow reports that the Jews in Treblinka are not sufficiently buried and therefore an unbearable smell of corpses befouls the air."51


OK means Oberkommandant. It's a name
Ok Ostrow is a command that is 20 kilometers from Treblinka. They can smell the stench of so many unburied corpses from 20 kilometers away - sounds like a killing facility.
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Old May 10th, 2007 #147
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Look, creep!

OK Ostrow means Oberkommandant Ostrow, i know many pollacks who go by this name.

Jews naturally stink. Dead or alive.

I am thousands of miles away from where you stink, but it doesn't matter,
your stench is annoying anyways. You stink until here. But you don't know that, because people are usually too afraid to let you know, and to be chosen means automatically: insensitive for truth.
Subrosa is a man. He tells you. He is one of the very few, who will not die of cancer, which is a jew-induced sickness.
 
Old May 10th, 2007 #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuisto View Post
Look, creep!

OK Ostrow means Oberkommandant Ostrow, i know many pollacks who go by this name.

Jews naturally stink. Dead or alive.

I am thousands of miles away from where you stink, but it doesn't matter,
your stench is annoying anyways. You stink until here. But you don't know that, because people are usually too afraid to let you know, and to be chosen means automatically: insensitive for truth.
Subrosa is a man. He tells you. He is one of the very few, who will not die of cancer, which is a jew-induced sickness.

Ostrow is a city in Poland that is 20 kilometers from Treblinka.

http://polandpoland.com/ostrow.html

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp....5833&size=big

This is a logical challenge for you - but if you put down the crayons, you may be able to figure it out.
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Old May 10th, 2007 #149
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Originally Posted by Slamin2 View Post
Ostrow is a city in Poland that is 20 kilometers from Treblinka.

http://polandpoland.com/ostrow.html

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp....5833&size=big

This is a logical challenge for you - but if you put down the crayons, you may be able to figure it out.
don't bother , he/she is just a kid. i was hoping some good holycost" revelation debate from tuisto. obviously the emotion is to unbearable for him/her to deal with-- more of the same jiberish clogging up this good-thread.

I'm not going into bagel oven details, but the holycost is
one big pile of jew-shit story -- no way in hell the axis carried out an enormous project while fighting in three fronts.

Last edited by blueskies; May 10th, 2007 at 07:58 PM.
 
Old May 10th, 2007 #150
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Originally Posted by Il_Duce View Post
don't bother . he/she is just a kid. i was hoping some good holycost" revelation debate from tuisto. obviously the emotion is to unbearable for him/her to deal with-- more of the same jiberish clogging up this good-thread.

I'm not going into bagel oven details. but the holycost is
just one big pile of jew-shit story -- no way in hell the axis carried out an enormous project while fighting in three fronts.
Since even revisionists admit the Jews were moved by rail across Europe to the camps, I don't see the enormous project.

Relocating them to permanent camps would be a challenge, killing them enmasse is the easy part.
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Old May 10th, 2007 #151
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The only way you can claim 2 million dead in mass-shootings in the east is by taking the Einsatzgruppen Reports as legit on face value and interpret words in the reports such as "relocated" and such as actually slaughtered. This is Hilberg's technique of puffing up the numbers, and if you've read the Einsatzgruppen Reports, you'll see it doesn't make sense. On the one hand its a "secret" so euphemistic words are used, then at the same time words such as "liquidated" "exterminated" "executed" are all over the place. Clearly this theory is garbage.
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Old May 10th, 2007 #152
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Originally Posted by Slamin2 View Post
Since even revisionists admit the Jews were moved by rail across Europe to the camps, I don't see the enormous project.

Relocating them to permanent camps would be a challenge, killing them enmasse is the easy part.
the logistic transportation" alone by rails and or trucks was not feasible at the time of war -the urgency for supplies/ fuels/troops/food/water ect,would have defeated the axis much sooner,whom the Soviets would have occupied the west as well.
 
Old May 10th, 2007 #153
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Originally Posted by Slamin2 View Post
Since even revisionists admit the Jews were moved by rail across Europe to the camps, I don't see the enormous project.

Relocating them to permanent camps would be a challenge, killing them enmasse is the easy part.
A lot of them fled east ahead of the German advance, which is what the Germans wanted. Camps ended up crowded, and epidemics began as early as 1942. By the end of the war, the Red Cross reported epidemics not only in the camps, but in German society in general. It was everywhere, even though we only see the photos of the sick in the camps.
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Old May 10th, 2007 #154
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Originally Posted by Il_Duce View Post
the logistic transportation" alone by rails and or trucks was not feasible at the time of war -the urgency for supplies/ fuels/troops/food/water ect,would have defeated the axis much sooner,whom the Soviets would have occupied the west as well.
Are you claiming the Jews of Western Europe were not gathered onto rail cars and the like by the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) and sent to camps in Poland and Eastern Europe?

Because you should know that this hypothesis is NOT supported by any major revisionist. Simpliy put, the evidence is overwhelming (and no, I can't reporduce thousands of train records - try VHO, they will discuss them)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagergeld View Post
A lot of them fled east ahead of the German advance, which is what the Germans wanted. Camps ended up crowded, and epidemics began as early as 1942. By the end of the war, the Red Cross reported epidemics not only in the camps, but in German society in general. It was everywhere, even though we only see the photos of the sick in the camps.
That would only apply to the Jews Eastern Poland and the Soviet Union - and since the Red Army had problems fleeing before the German advance, I find it hard to imagine any significant amount of Jews made the journey.

This 'fleeing east' could not account for the Jews in Western Europe, Hungary, Greece, etc.
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Old May 10th, 2007 #155
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Originally Posted by Lagergeld View Post
The only way you can claim 2 million dead in mass-shootings in the east is by taking the Einsatzgruppen Reports as legit on face value and interpret words in the reports such as "relocated" and such as actually slaughtered. This is Hilberg's technique of puffing up the numbers, and if you've read the Einsatzgruppen Reports, you'll see it doesn't make sense. On the one hand its a "secret" so euphemistic words are used, then at the same time words such as "liquidated" "exterminated" "executed" are all over the place. Clearly this theory is garbage.

Which reports do you have problems with?

Perhaps some of these are dubious?

"Authenticity of Reports

The story of the Einsatzgruppen and the Einsatzkommandos is not something pieced together years after their crimson deeds were accomplished. The story was written as the events it narrates occurred, and it was authored by the doers of the deeds. It was written in the terse, exact language which military discipline requires, and which precision of reporting dictates.

The maintenance of an army in invaded territory and the planning of future operations demands cold factuality in reports, which requirement was rudimentary knowledge to all members of the German Armed Forces. Thus, every sub-kommando leader was instructed to inform his Kommando leader of developments and activities in his field of operations, every Kommando leader in turn accounted to the Einsatzgruppe leader, and the Einsatzgruppe leader by wireless and by mail reported to the RSHA in Berlin. These accounts were veiled in secrecy but they were not so covert that they did not come to the attention of the top-ranking military and political officials of the regime. In fact, at the capital, they were compiled, classified, mimeographed, and distributed to a selected list. These are the reports which have been submitted in evidence.

The case of the prosecution is founded entirely on these official accounts prepared by the Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommando leaders. The Tribunal will quote rather copiously from these reports because only by the very language of the actual performers can a shocked world believe that these things could come to pass in the twentieth century. A few brief excerpts at the outset will reveal graphically the business of the Einsatzgruppen. A report on Einsatzgruppe B, dated 19 December 1941, speaks of an action in Mogilev and points out--

Quote:
"During the controls of the roads radiating from Mogilev, carried out with the aid of the constabulary, 135 persons, mostly Jews, were apprehended...127 persons were shot." (NO-2824.)


The report also declares: Quote:
"In agreement with the commander, the transient camp in Mogilev was searched for Jews and officials. 126 persons were found and shot."


The same report advises that in Parichi near Bobruisk, Quote:
"A special action was executed, during which 1013 Jews and Jewesses were shot."


In Rudnja: Quote:
"835 Jews of both sexes were shot." (NO-2824.)


Sonderkommando 4a, operating in the town of Chernigov, reported that on 23 October 1941, 116 Jews were shot; on the following day, 144 were shot. (NO-2832.)

A Teilkommando of Sonderkommando 4a, operating in Poltava, reported as of 23 November 1941: Quote:
"Altogether 1538 Jews were shot." (NO-3405.)


Einsatzgruppe D operating near Simferopol communicated: Quote:
"During the period covered by the report 2010 people were shot." (NO-3235.)


An Einsatz unit, operating in the Ukraine, communicated that in Rakov: Quote:
"1500 Jews were shot." (3876-PS.)


A report on activities in Minsk in March 1942 reads: Quote:
"In the course of the greater action against Jews, 3412 Jews were shot." (NO-2662.)


Einsatzkommando 6, operating in Dnepropetrovsk, reported that on 13 October 1941: Quote:
"Of the remaining 30000 approximately 10000 were shot." (NO-2832.)


A report dated 16 January 1942, accounting for the activities of Einsatzkommando 2, stated that in Riga on 30 November 1941: Quote:
"10600 Jews were shot." (NO-3405.)


In time the authors of the reports apparently tired of the word "shot" so, within the narrow compass of expression allowed in a military report, some variety was added. A report originating in Latvia read: Quote:
"The Higher SS and Police leader in Riga, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Jeckeln, has meanwhile embarked on a shooting action [Erschiessungsaktion] and on Sunday, the 30 November 1941, about 4000 Jews from the Riga ghetto and an evacuation transport from the Reich were disposed of." (NO-3257.)


And so that no one could be in doubt as to what was meant by "Disposed of", the word "killed" was added in parentheses.

A report originating from the Crimea stated laconically: Quote:
"In the Crimea 1000 Jews and gypsies were executed." (NO-2662.)


A report of Einsatzgruppe B, in July 1941, relates that the Jews in Lithuania were placed in concentration camps for special treatment, and then the report explains: Quote:
"This work was now begun and thus about 500 Jews, saboteurs among them, are liquidated daily." (NO-2937.)


A Kommando, operating in Lachoisk, reported: Quote:
"A large-scale anti-Jewish action was carried out in the village of Lachoisk. In the course of this action 920 Jews were executed with the support of a Kommando of the SS Division 'Reich'. The village may now be described as 'free of Jews'." (NO-3143.)


Einsatzgruppe B, operating out of headquarters Smolensk, reported on one of its operations in October 1941: Quote:
"In Mogilev the Jews tried also to sabotage their removal into the ghetto by migrating in masses. The Einsatzkommando No. 8, with the help of the ordinary police, blocked the roads leading out of the town and liquidated 113 Jews." (NO-160.)


This same organization also reported: Quote:
"Two large-scale actions were carried out by the platoon in Krupka and Sholopaniche, 912 Jews being liquidated in the former and 822 in the latter place." (NO-160.)


The advance Kommando of Sonderkommando 4a, chronicling its activities of 4 October 1941 reported: Quote:
"Altogether, 537 Jews (men, women, and adolescents) were apprehended and liquidated." (NO-3404.)


Eventually even the expressions "liquidate" and "execute ' became monotonous, so the report-writers broke another bond of literary restraint and began describing the murder of Jews with varying verbiage. One particularly favored phrase announced that so many Jews were "rendered harmless". Still another declared that so many Jews had been "got rid of." One more pronounced that a given number of Jews had been "done away with". However, it really mattered little what phraseology was employed. Once the word "Jew" appeared in a report, it was known that this invariably meant that he had been killed. Thus, when one particularly original report-writer wrote, Quote:
"At present, the Jewish problem is being solved at Nikolaev and Kherson. About 5000 Jews were processed at either place."
It required no lucubration on the part of the RSHA officials in Berlin to comprehend that 5000 Jews had been killed at Nikolaev and 5000 had been killed at Kherson. (NO-3148.)

Death was simple routine with these earthy organizations. In the Reich Security Main Office, Einsatzgruppen could well be synonymous with homicide. One report, after stating that certain towns were freed of Jews, ends up with the abundantly clear remark that Quote:
"the remaining officials were appropriately treated." (NO-3137.) "
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Old May 10th, 2007 #156
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This is just getting better and better. I think its time to contact "Mythbusters".

First the magical ovens that cook thousands of jews to a thimble full of ashes a day, now magical railroads (that are still intact and fully operational mind you) that carried millions of jews to be disposed of at some labor camp where it wasn't good enough to house them, but just for them just be good jews, allow themselves to be carried off to be exterminated, and this isn't even counting the non jews involved....never mind the millions of jews that somehow survived and relocated in many parts of the world. (wow that was one hellava run on sentence)

The logistics of transport all these jews in a short period time and then disposed of them does not sound plausible in the least. Nevermind the transfer of goods to the front and other important locations, but how about these life lines being targets of resistence against the Germans? Lets just put these claims from these ailing documents to rest and really think about the effort to carry this all out in secrecy! You would think this would have reached North American shores as a reason to fight Germany, but again it never came up until well after the war and after all suspected nazis were tortured into signing confession with false information.

Where are the 6 million names of the jews? If that number was accurate, then the documentation of the names would surely be around somewhere.
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Old May 10th, 2007 #157
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Originally Posted by Slamin2 View Post
Are you claiming the Jews of Western Europe were not gathered onto rail cars and the like by the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) and sent to camps in Poland and Eastern Europe?
Now why would the 6 mil hebes be stransported, n housed to the east, advancing Soviets armada ? POW's are shipped to the rear,so as to not interfere with the war effort.

Last edited by blueskies; May 10th, 2007 at 08:57 PM.
 
Old May 10th, 2007 #158
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This is an article by one of the leading revisionists.

Your ignorance of not only history, but of even revisionist history is great.

http://www.stormfront.org/solargener...4p-4_Graf.html

What Happened to the Jews Who Were Deported to Auschwitz but Were Not Registered There?
Jürgen Graf

In this paper, I deal with the question of the fate of Jews who were deported to Auschwitz, but were not registered there. At the outset I want to say that no one is able to provide a complete answer to this question. If we possessed documents that clarified this issue, this paper would be unnecessary. As it happens, documents on this aspect of camp history are very spotty and incomplete. For the time being we are therefore obliged to deal, for the most part, with hypotheses, and to point to tasks that revisionists will likely confront in the future.

-----

For most of the European countries of origin, the contemporary wartime German documents show rather clearly just how many Jews were deported to Auschwitz. We know, for example, that more than 75,000 Jews were deported from France, of whom 69,000 were sent to Auschwitz.[note 14] Similarly reliable documentation shows just how many Jews were deported to Auschwitz from most of the European states of origin. For these countries, Piper's figures can hardly be contested. Not so clear, however, are his estimates of the number of deportees from the two countries from where, by far, the largest number of Jews arrived -- namely Hungary and Poland.

------------

I now accept the number of 437,000 deported Hungarian Jews as a working hypothesis. (this would be in 1944 alone)

-----------

To summarize: According to Franciszek Piper, 1.1 million Jews were deported to Auschwitz -- of whom 300,000 were Polish Jews. From this latter figure we subtract 100,000, while at the same time accepting his figures for all other countries, including Hungary (at least provisionally), and arrive, therefore, at about a million Jews deported to that largest of the German concentration camps. Of these, 200,000 were registered. According to Piper, half of them survived the camp, while Mattogno and Deana arrive at a higher percentage of survivors. Therefore, there remain some 800,000 Jews who arrived at Auschwitz but were not registered there (at least according to the camp records). According to official historiography, virtually all of these unregistered Jews were gassed in Auschwitz. According to the 1944 Veesenmayer telegrams from Budapest to Berlin, more than half of this 800,000, namely 410,000, arrived at Auschwitz from Hungary, of whom only 28,000 were registered in the camp.

------------

Should I go on or can you read it for yourself?

This however, deserves to be repeated, for most trolling revisionists on forums feel no burden of proof - Graf does not agree.

"In discussions with opponents and skeptics, revisionists are invariably confronted with the question: "If they weren't killed, what happened to the missing Jews?" This question deserves serious consideration. We revisionists should not be content merely to refute the official "Holocaust" story; we should also attempt to explain, as clearly as possible, what actually did occur. Naturally, this involves the question of the whereabouts of the missing Jews."
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Old May 10th, 2007 #159
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Originally Posted by Slamin2 View Post
This however, deserves to be repeated, for most trolling revisionists on forums feel no burden of proof - Graf does not agree.

"[/B]
The question i have is, if 6 mil crazy yids were flushed down the toilet,or the Axis prevailed for that matter,would we be in such a shit-hole today?
 
Old May 10th, 2007 #160
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Originally Posted by Il_Duce View Post
The question i have is, if 6 mil crazy yids were flushed down the toilet,or the Axis prevailed for that matter,would we be in such a shit-hole today?

So having lost the argument that they could not be transported by rail - you are left with the argument of who cares?
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