Forbidden love of the brother and sister(in germany)

[dogman]

Forbidden love of the brother and sister(in germany)
Last updated at 15:43pm on 1st March 2007


Had it stopped at an appropriate point, the story of Patrick Stuebing and Susan Karolewski could have been poignant and moving.

Separated by adoption in their native East Germany, the siblings met for the first time in 2000 when Patrick tracked down his birth mother and the younger sister he had never met.

If their mother, Ana Marie, were alive today, however, she would, in all likelihood, be wishing her estranged son had never found his way home

Because for the past seven years, brother and sister have been lovers. In that time they have had four children together - two of whom are mentally and physically disabled and all of whom are now in care.

And despite the fact that 29-year-old Stuebing, an unemployed locksmith, has already served two jail sentences for committing incest with his sister, now aged 22, the couple defiantly refuse to give each other up.

The disturbing story of their twisted relationship emerged this week as the pair announced plans to take their case to Germany's highest legal body, the Constitutional Court, in a bid to legalise their shocking union.

Astonishingly, they are doing so despite the fact that two of their children can barely walk or talk. Experts believe that such birth defects are caused by inbreeding.

But in a case that could have ramifications across Europe, and which has been presented by liberal sympathisers as a romantic battle against oppression, the pair argue that they are being denied the right to sexual freedom.

"We do not feel guilty about what has happened between us," they announced in a statement. "We want the law which makes incest a crime to be abolished."

To most people, this would seem to be an open and shut case. And yet, because Germany's laws on incest were introduced by the Nazis, they are an easy target for Left-wing groups who can conveniently argue that they are nothing more than an extension of the Third Reich's Aryan racial hygiene laws.

Such groups argue that the laws should be overturned in favour of freedom of choice and sexual determination. Or, as the couple's lawyer, Endrik Wilhelm, puts it: "Everyone should be able to do what he wants as long as it doesn't harm others."

But many say the practice of incest does harm others. Children born as a result of incest are at an increased risk of developing severe mental and physical disabilities. Incest laws are seen as a deterrent and help prevent children being born with the disabilities that result from genetic defects and inbreeding.

Back in Germany, the story has provoked moral and scientific outrage.

"When siblings have a child together, there is only a 50 per cent chance that it will be healthy when it is born," Jurgen Kunze, professor of human genetics at Berlin's Charite hospital, told one newspaper.

German newspapers mockingly call them the "forbidden lovers of the Fatherland" but, clutching each other on the sofa at their home in the small village of Grossdalzig near Leipzig, the pair insist they couldn't help themselves.

"We didn't know each other in childhood," says Susan. "It's not the same for us. We fell in love as adults and our love is real. There is nothing we could do about it. We were both attracted to each other and then nature took over from us. It was that simple. What else could we do? We followed our instincts and our hearts."

In fact, as the Mail has discovered, the details of the relationship make uncomfortable reading. Stuebing was the third of eight children born into a poor, uneducated, dysfunctional family. His violent father, now dead, attacked him with a knife when he was three and he was made a ward of court and then adopted. Susan was born into the same unhappy family - on the same day her parents' divorce was finalised.

Her childhood was unspeakably deprived. Her chain-smoking, unemployed mother often left her at home alone, or entertained lovers while she was there. Poorly educated and barely able to write, even today, Susan remembers being unloved and a burden to her mother.

Six other brothers and sisters, some of whom were born with disabilities, died in childhood. One was run over and killed age seven.

Another mentally handicapped sister died age eight. Susan was close to one of her disabled brothers, Andre, but he died in the same year as her mother.

When Stuebing was 18 he decided to find his biological parents. Four years later he tracked down his mother and discovered Susan. He moved in, and, astonishingly, Ana Marie allowed him to share her young daughter's bedroom.

"We both stayed up late into the night to talk to each other about our hopes and dreams," he says.

Six months later, Ana Marie died of a heart attack. Susan was relying more and more on her brother. It is not hard to see how she might have confused such dependency on her brother with love as she struggled to cope without her mother.

In her own words: "Trust grew into a different type of love when our mother died six months later."

Taking into account her lack of education, it is perhaps not surprising. She left school at 15 with no formal qualifications. A reporter who visited her at her home spoke of her obsessive nail biting and the simple way in which she spoke.

The bond appeared to develop out of dependency on Susan's part and perhaps a need to be respected and in charge on Stuebing's.

He says: "I became head of the family and I had to protect my sister. She is very sensitive but we helped each other during this very difficult period and eventually that relationship became physical."

Despite already having experienced a normal relationship with a woman, he insists: "We didn't even know we were doing anything wrong when we started sleeping together. We didn't think about using a condom. We didn't know it was illegal to sleep together.

"Our mother would not have approved, but the only ones who should judge us now is us."

In October 2001, aged just 16, Susan gave birth to a baby boy, Erik. He was taken into care and now - aged five and living with foster parents in Potsdam - can hardly walk or speak properly.

Sarah, now four, was born in 2003 and suffers similar disabilities. She was also taken into care, as was Nancy, nearly three, who appears to be normal. Sophia, now two, was born while Stuebing was in prison.

Under the care of German social services, Susan tried to hide the pregnancy by wearing baggy clothes. She gave birth alone in the bath. Stuebing has since been sterilised in the mistaken belief that if he has no more children with his sister, he will evade jail. And yet both are apparently in denial about their children's disabilities, despite expert opinion.

"Two of our children are disabled," says Stuebing. "But that is not necessarily anything to do with the fact that we are siblings. There are other disabled people in our family. We had six brothers and sisters who did not survive in some cases because they were disabled."

The pair were tried for incest in 2002. The district court in Leipzig heard how from January 2001 until August 2001, Stuebing "had sexual intercourse with his sister 16 times. Only at the beginning did the accused bother using condoms".

Stuebing received a year's suspended jail term after being found guilty on all counts. Susan, then 17, was treated as a juvenile and placed into the care of youth services.

But after the birth of two more children, the court was not so lenient. Stuebing was eventually sentenced to ten months in prison.

They found themselves in court again in 2005 on account of their other daughters and Stuebing was sentenced to two and a half years for re-committing incest.

When he was taken to jail, a tearful Susan told German newspapers she could not live without him. Stuebing threatened to commit suicide. Yet while the brother was locked up, the sister conceived a fifth child by another man.

Even so, upon Stuebing's release, she gushed to German reporters: "I'm so happy Patrick is here and that I have him again. I need him."

Stuebing in turn told the cameras: "I am doing well. I will always be there for Susan and the children."

They have been living together, but he has one year and five months of his sentence still open, and as he is openly back with his sister, he will be jailed again and again unless he can overturn German law.

"We are challenging this law because we do not want to be separated ever again," he says from the two-bedroom council flat where they live with Susan's latest child and a dog called Tyson.

Incredibly, the couple even argue that they might not have had so many children if the first hadn't been taken away. Stuebing says: "The younger children might not have been born had they not taken the first one from us. We just want to make sure that we don't lose everything again."

He and his sister visit their son Erik in care. He adds: "When you see your child being looked after by someone else when they should be with you, that's hard for any parent to bear. So if he is handicapped, well, that is all the more reason we should be able to look after him."

They also talk about wanting their oldest daughter Sarah back with them, but are happy for the others to remain with foster parents. "It would all be too much and we do not have enough room," says Susan, adding with unwitting irony. "We want to do what is best for them."

It is clear she is still utterly dependent on her brother. At home, she likes to read teenage magazines and watch Germany's version of Big Brother.

"When I go to the shops in the village, all the little boys call me rude names," she says. "But I can bear it all as long as Patrick is with me."

Stuebing admits he underwent a vasectomy in the hope it would mean he could live with his sister without fear of further prosecution.

"There is no reason for them to jail me now," he says. "I do not want to go back to jail and I know we will never voluntarily leave each other. If anyone doubts our love they should just see we will not be kept apart."

Few people would see this as a compelling argument to keep him out of prison. But while incest is one of the few remaining sexual taboos, in legal terms, at least, Europe remains divided. France's incest laws were abolished in 1810 by Napoleon. It is also not illegal in the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Portugal or Turkey.

But in Britain, incest remains forbidden. The law was extended in 2002 to cover not just blood relatives but also step parents and children and cases of adoption.

If ever there was an argument for retaining incest laws, the story of Patrick Stuebing and his sister Susan Karolewski is surely it.

It is almost inevitable that when Germany's highest court decides on this case in around six weeks time, it will uphold its incest laws and send Stuebing back to jail.

It is a prospect Susan is distraught about. "We want our children back to raise them as a proper family," she says. "We love each other," she adds naively. "Surely that is all that matters?"

In the end, of course, the unfortunate children who have resulted from this twisted union matter far more. Whatever happens, they will have to live with the stigma of their parentage for the rest of their lives.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...#StartComments

[Apollon Deux Mille]

Another day, another feature story of rationalization of hostility. Brother sister incest goes on all the time, especially with teens/young 20somethings and it's ok, people just don't admit to it but they like to innuendo at it a lot. Jewish/degenerate White mass media like to make a point of sisters rejecting their evil brothers, relatives taking sides against the family, close brother-sister relationships being wrong, etc.

Their kids are disabled because they have bad genes, brothers and sisters have only a slightly higher than random chance of having disabled children, brothers and sisters are often bred by animal breeders. It's sick to separate siblings to different foster homes, and, as they grew up separately they are psychologically not fully siblings. It's fucked up that they would have kids together though and make a big public deal out of it, I guess that is these people's way of making a little group and role for themselves, they come from bad parents and were brought up as adoptees etc., such people have a hard time.

[Kind Lampshade Maker]

It must be awful lonely, in Germany. His sister's pretty good looking.
My sister's a dawg. Aside for the fact that she's childless, I can be thankful, otherwise

[elbwgreez]

Interesting that the main reason the law is being challanged is being of Hitler's genetic hygiene laws, which were and are a good idea.

As for these incestuous people, the sister should be sterilized as well. Jailing them is foolish.

[aherne]

Another piece of anti-Aryan smear campaign. When was the last article speaking of FAR-FAR-FAR more common incest among niggers? I bet if you're into "democratic" press, you've never heard of that! In fact, in Subsaharan African countries little girls are more likely to lose their virginity with their elder brothers, cousins (and fathers) for all sorts of stupid reasons, one of them being a measure to "treat aids".

The morals of these stories is:
"These nazi goys are all a bunch of so-called respectable closet degenerates!"

[SlagMaster]

Genetic side effect of Incest among NIGgers would be mush harder to
detect, as they a predisposed to mental retardation from the point
of conception. As for the the physical attributes of Nigger Incest a
study of monkey offsprings would be in order.

As for their mother, Ana Marie, I can hear it now... " How many times do
I have to tell you to use a Rubber when you Fuck your Sister, can't you
just have her give you Head ".

[Chain]

I agree with aherne. What was your point in posting this, dogman? You figure VNNF is having too much success as one of the few sites highlighting contrarion racialist news? We are not evenequal time to the worldwide avalanche of anti-White propaganda, but we try.

William Gayley Simpson, in Which Way Western Man? wrote that our very genetic history is one in which nobility commonly sought and carried out betrothals with first and second cousins, the better to solidify common property, positive genetic aspects of beauty etc. These were cousins, not brother and sister, so there is a big difference. He said the Romans did this frequently. One could perhaps argue that this may have caused some genetic problems to creep into a bloodline that might not have otherwise, but-- according to Simpson-- it transpired.

Do tell us your considered interests and motivations in publishing your tripe.

EDIT: I just looked through a lot of your posts and threads. Your trademark seems to be
you never make a single personal commentary in any thread. You simply post pieces. Is that correct? I think we may expect you to continue to be as gutless-- a gutless wonder.

A very few of your 304 threads:
UK women are now officially the fattest in Europe
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=45205

Black japanese
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=36657

Kenya paedophile-rape: German charged with raping minors, infecting them with hiv
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=44223

Swiss among worst child sex culprits in Kenya
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=44120

Animal bordellos draw Norwegians
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=44103

Prostitution in the Czech Republic
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=45092

Sex slavery plagues Romania and Bulgaria
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=42707

Two Suspects to Stand Trial for Beating That Angered Germany
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=44498

How Sweden tackles prostitution
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=44728

Prostitution in Germany
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=43494

Italy smashes prostitution ring
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=43766

Amsterdam to get statue to world's prostitutes
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=43427

Russian freed in prostitution case
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=43321

Exhibition on Sex Slavery Under the Nazis to Open in Germany
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=43302

(You have an absolutely inordinate interest in White prostitution and on niggers in Asian countries. I suspect you might possibly be a nigger. On the other hand, your withdrawing, passive-aggressive nature in not very standardly niggery-- more gooky.)

RACE mixing (BM/CF)in china
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=42487

Women in black rhythyms (BM/WF race mixing in finland)
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=42484

Thailand's 'Swiss village'
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=44115

[Kind Lampshade Maker]

Originally Posted by Chain

...EDIT: I just looked through a lot of your posts and threads. Your trademark seems to be
you never make a single personal commentary in any thread. You simply post pieces. Is that correct? I think we may expect you to continue to be as gutless-- a gutless wonder...

Please show some compassion, Sir. Having to live as half dog and half man isn't easy, these days. Under these circumstances, it may be easier to post than to comment. Have you ever heard a Dog or a God comment? Both seem good at posting, though.
If I may advocate for the defendant, pertaining to the thread in question, both siblings were born and separated during Marxist rule. Thus, without the Jew influence, through Jew Marx and whatever other Jew cronies, these siblings would have grown up in more favorable circumstances and would not have met each other as strangers.
Here an Austrian cohersion to bestiality:
http://www.sms.at/fun/spiele/sex_wg/

[Kind Lampshade Maker]

I just sent them an e-mail asking if the girl pictured is his/their daughter:
[email protected]

[Chain]

Originally Posted by Kind Lampshade Maker

Please show some compassion, Sir. Having to live as half dog and half man isn't easy, these days. Under these circumstances, it may be easier to post than to comment. Have you ever heard a Dog or a God comment? Both seem good at posting, though.
If I may advocate for the defendant, pertaining to the thread in question, both siblings were born and separated during Marxist rule. Thus, without the Jew influence, through Jew Marx and whatever other Jew cronies, these siblings would have grown up in more favorable circumstances and would not have met each other as strangers.
Here an Austrian cohersion to bestiality:
http://www.sms.at/fun/spiele/sex_wg/

dogman has 389 posts and 360 threads! LOL. If the asshole would have searched, he'd see there are Akon threads. The tactic is to distract-- in the case of Akon, from my Akon You Tube vid thread.

[EireannGoddess]

Originally Posted by dogman

Forbidden love of the brother and sister(in germany)
Last updated at 15:43pm on 1st March 2007

What the hell is this? In what fashion or manner is this article related to this Board? What am I supposed to do with your information, how is it applicable to my Race in general?

If you have something to say, then say it - stop hiding behind newspaper articles.

So far, all I'm able to gather from this thread and your others, provided here in another post, is that you have a fasicnation with unnatural sexuality, paedophilia, race-mixing, prostitution and obese people.

Why? Dogman, are you the product of an over-weight nigger prostitute whom is herself the result of her parents being related and a man not of her race whom is also a paedophile?

[Celtic_Patriot]

dogman is a Jewish troll who likes to get Whites fighting eachother.

Look at all the threads he starts: Italians killing Poles. Russians fighting Estonians.

He posts pages of Berezovsky bolshevik publicity photos.

He thinks he's a smartass Jew troll as he thinks he gets away with distracting and getting Whites to focus on everything but the Jew.

[The Barrenness]

It sounds like there are some really bad genetics here and they probably should not be breeding with anyone. There are always a small percentage of weirdos just like this in society, they bigger problem is the one we have been moving towards for a long time now, which is that anything goes and all lifestyles are equal. It is scary to think about what new lows will be achieved as a result of that mindset.

[Hugo Böse]

If dogman does have malicious intentions, I think he is wasting his time here; no one on VNN has any illusions about the majority of today’s whites. I predict that on the day of the rope, the majority of those decorating the lamp posts will be white, anybody who realistically assesses the situation must come up with a similar conclusion.

[The Wandering Jew]

This is another example of what filthy sexual degenerates whites are. Your species is filthy untermenschen, we are doing you a favor wiping out your race.

[Hugo Böse]

Originally Posted by The Wandering Jew

This is another example of what filthy sexual degenerates whites are. Your species is filthy untermenschen, we are doing you a favor wiping out your race.

Oh, would you like us to find some articles about jews in pornography or how about the sex trade and sex slavery in israhell, how about uncle Freud’s perverse ponderings, hell, how about all that wholesome jewish art, it sooths the soul and warms the heart. The torah allegedly has some real good parts about when jews are allowed to engage in ugly deeds with young boys and girls and the thing with rabbis sucking young jew hatchling’s reproductive organs is a real indicator of superiority to be sure.

[EireannGoddess]

Originally Posted by The Wandering Jew

This is another example of what filthy sexual degenerates whites are. Your species is filthy untermenschen, we are doing you a favor wiping out your race.

This sort of self-righteous indignation is hilarious coming from a jew whose tribe are THE purveyors of pornography.

Shall I offer you the long list of kike names related to the porn industry - both magasine and film medias?

What about the rabbis that run to enslaved Russian prostitutes in israel, just before shabbos.

You juden pig.

[Mark]

Incest in this case is at least mutual consent, and not the kind where a younger person is being taken advantage of by an older family member.

Actually quite a sad story. You can tell how emotionally needy and dependent on him the sister is. What can you ever do to stop that other than lock him up. It's unfortunate that they can't have a platonic love for each other that can be very meaningful. Some people cannot separate sex and love.

They may already have recessive genes that contribute to disability in their family, but incest just makes it more profound.