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Old January 17th, 2009 #1833
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Desperate over his lack of even the little courage required to post this simple statement:

Quote:
I am prepared to, from now on, also answer questions and respond to challenges myself, and to address my opponent’s arguments and the evidence presented by my opponent (all of it).
compulsive liar and whimpering coward Gerdes again turned to mouthing off about me on the "CODOH Revisionist Forum" – a place where, as Gerdes well knows, I am not allowed to post because the moderator got so scared of my arguments that he banned me.

Under http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=5290 , the poor creature opened a thread called "Muehlenkamp locates teeth at Treblinka!", which I shall now have some fun with, commenting both Gerdes’ and his fellow CODOH clowns’ diatribes.

Gerdes post of Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:05 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
In a recent response to my challenge for Muehlenkamp to:

locate / prove the existence of just one single "huge mass grave" at Treblinka that contains just one:

1 - Complete human body in a "wax fat transformation."

2 - Complete human skeleton.

3 - Complete human skull

4 - Complete human bone.

5 - Human bone fragment.

6 - Human tooth.

7 - Ounce of human ash.

8 - Spent bullet.

9 - Shell casing.

Muehlenkamp not only claims that he has done so, but has "thrashed" me in the process with the following "proof:" (I will only use his "proof" of locating / proving the existence of just one human tooth as an example of his insanity.)

First he gives us this Vassili Grossman quote:

Quote:
The earth is throwing out crushed bones, teeth, clothes, papers. It does not want to keep secrets.

Then a Polish newspaper quote:

Quote:
"With the grave robbers we found golden rings, crowns and porcelain teeth with gold and silver inlays."

Then he gives us..., he gives us..., oh, I guess that's it!
Gerdes’ babbling starts with a lie, as was to be expected from someone to whom lying apparently comes as naturally as breathing. I didn’t claim to have met each of Gerdes’ demands – the relevance of which he has never even tried to explain, unsurprisingly so as they are irrelevant – , but wrote the following in my post # 1825 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...postcount=1825 :

Quote:
So, while I have not met all demands from Gerdes' above-quoted list (which he obviously knows are irrelevant, hence his dodging my frequent questions about their relevance earlier in his discussion), I have responded to all of them to the best that my current knowledge of the evidence allows.
That’s one hell of a lot more than Gerdes has ever done in our long discussions on Topix and on VNN. The day the whimpering coward answers a question of mine to the best of his current knowledge, instead of miserably hiding behind his idiotic and irrelevant "show me just one this and that" – demands, I’ll throw a party.

The second lie follows suit as Gerdes calls my exhibit A.3.1.6 mentioned in post # 1825 a "newspaper quote". While the secondary source from which the quote was taken is indeed a Polish newspaper article, the primary source that the newspaper refers to – which is what matters here – is a Polish militia report about a militia action against robbery diggers on the soil of Treblinka:

Exhibit A.3.1.6: Excerpt from a Polish militia report about an action against robbery diggers on the Treblinka site, quoted in a Polish newspaper article about the "Gold Rush in Treblinka", the translation of which is under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/925...ml#reply-92506 :

Quote:
"With the grave robbers we found golden rings, crowns and porcelain teeth with gold and silver inlays."
I also showed a photo pertaining to that report, which Greg "I accept only photos as proof, even if that’s a nonsensical attitude" – Gerdes for some reason failed to mention:

Quote:
This photo is from the same Polish newspaper article and was obviously part of the Polish militia report mentioned quoted as Exhibit A.3.1.6. It shows Polish militiamen with robbery-diggers they rounded up on the Treblinka site, and a line of bones and skulls in front of some of the latter:

The third lie – or maybe it’s just an outgrowth of Gerdes’ sparrow-brained imbecility – is the "that’s it" – claim. I didn’t say that my exhibits A.3.1.1 (the excerpt from Vassili Grossman’s report mentioning teeth on the Treblinka soil) and A.3.1.6 (the above-mentioned Polish militia report) are the only evidence to the presence of human teeth on the Treblinka site, or even the main evidence. The main evidence to the presence of human teeth and other leftovers of mass murder and cremation at Treblinka is the evidence to such mass murder and cremation itself, from which the presence of such remains logically follows. Accordingly I wrote the following in my post # 1825:

Quote:
The conclusive evidence to the murder of hundreds of thousands of people by gassing or shooting at Treblinka and the removal of their bodies first by burial and then by burning, which includes but is not limited to the exhibits shown in my posts # 172 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=172 , # 194 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=194 and # 777 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=777 , logically proves the existence of any number of mass graves containing any number of any type of human remains that can be logically expected to have remained on site under the known circumstances. This applies especially to the items "complete human skull", "complete human bone", "human bone fragment", "human tooth" and "ounce of human ash", which were not only described in criminal site investigation reports and/or eyewitness testimonies as having been found inside a mass grave or above the soil after having been dug up from the mass graves by robbery diggers, but can also (except for the "human tooth") be seen on photographs matching these descriptions.
One wonders why Gerdes picked teeth as his "example", by the way. Could it be because other exhibits he yells for are also shown on photographs and our "I accept only photos as proof, even if that’s a nonsensical attitude" – freak was concerned that his fellow clowns on CODOH might be impressed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
That folks, is Muehlenkamp's definition of - locate / prove the existence of just one single "huge mass grave" at Treblinka that contains just one Human tooth.
What’s supposed to be wrong with my "definition" (or the mutilated part of it that Gerdes dared to show his CODOH buddies) the poor fellow cannot explain, of course. How could he? What reasons are there to assume that the testimony of an eyewitness inspecting the site and a militia report about teeth found with robbery diggers are not conclusive proof of the presence of such teeth on site? None. According to what rules or standards of evidence that Gerdes can show us – other than his irrelevant own – would photos of teeth lying on the Treblinka II site be required to prove that human teeth were lying on the Treblinka II site after the war? Also none. So the poor fellow hides his lack of arguments behind hollow derision, as if it were obvious that the evidence I presented is oh-so-insufficient. Actually the only think that is obvious is Gerdes’ lack of arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
It's also his definition of "thrashing" me! LOL!!!
Actually, as Gerdes knows very well, my thrashing him consists of a lot more than showing photos of or documents mentioning the objects he yells for.

It consists of having confronted him with collections of evidence belonging to various categories, i.e. eyewitness testimonies, contemporary Nazi documents and documentation of physical evidence, including but not limited to the exhibits listed in my post # 172 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=172 , # 194 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=194 and # 777 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=777 , and showing how Gerdes is too scared of most of this evidence to even address it and too scared of my related questions, and of my recurring questions about the relevance of his demands, to even try providing an answer.

If consists of having shown, by meeting our appointment at Sobibor on 15.10.2008 only to find that Gerdes’ had run away from it after all his big-mouthed bragging (see my post # 1525 under http://206.41.127.17/showpost.php?p=...postcount=1525 ), that the fellow is all bluff and no action, and that there’s nothing (other than shit in his pants) behind the big mouthfuls of manure he keeps spitting around.

And is also consists of having shown, over and over again, that Fatso Gerdes:



it too much a



to post this simple statement:

Quote:
I am prepared to, from now on, also answer questions and respond to challenges myself, and to address my opponent’s arguments and the evidence presented by my opponent (all of it).
and thus break the "ignore" deadlock and get our discussion on this forum going again.

Of course Gerdes knows very well what my thrashing of him consists of, and how miserable he would look in the eyes of his CODOH buddies if they saw it. That’s why he hasn’t so far given them a link to this VNN thread, even though I asked or challenged him to do so many times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The "evidence" he presents for the other items is as laughable as the above.
Which is why Gerdes has no argument against it (calling it "laughable" is no argument, of course, just proof that Gerdes has none) and prefers to stick to the teeth "example" he obviously considered the safest to make a fuss about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Of the nine items on the above list, he was only able to show photos of 2 (a complete human bone and a human bone fragment),
First of all, Gerdes hasn’t yet explained (and never will be able to explain) why one must show photos to prove the presence of certain types of human remains on the Treblinka II site, why descriptions of such remains by eyewitnesses, criminal investigators or administrative authorities are not proof just as good or even better (photos, after all, can only illustrate a small part of what becomes apparent from other, more comprehensive evidence).

Second, the photos shown in my post # 1825:

Quote:
Photos matching the area described and the human remains thereon can be found under item A.3.2. in the aforementioned post # 172. Some of them are shown below:









The first two of these photos are featured on the site http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html, which also shows a different printout of the fourth photo:



that is captioned "TURNED UP EARTH #4". The description in Exhibit A.3.1.4 above suggests that this "turned up earth" largely consists of human ashes, and one can clearly see there numerous white shards that are obviously bone fragments – they remind me of similar white shards I found during my recent trip to Sobibor, see under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...th-update.html and http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/636...o-Sobibor.html .

This photo, which shows a number of human skulls lying in the sand on the Treblinka site, is from the Polish newspaper article translated under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/925...ml#reply-92506, the context suggesting that it belongs to the site inspection in 1947 in which Karol Ogrodowczyk took part:



This photo is from the same Polish newspaper article and was obviously part of the Polish militia report mentioned quoted as Exhibit A.3.1.6. It shows Polish militiamen with robbery-diggers they rounded up on the Treblinka site, and a line of bones and skulls in front of some of the latter:

show a lot more than just "a complete human bone and a human bone fragment". They show a number of human bones and skulls, and they show many bone fragments lying in soil that, according to descriptions contained in criminal investigation reports and not belied by its aspect, consists largely of human ashes. Even Gerdes can’t be that blind. While it doesn’t really matter how many of the human remains proven by corroborated documentation of physical evidence are shown on photographs, it is interesting to note once more how shamelessly and stupidly Gerdes lies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
but he was unable to prove the location of a grave that contains said items
The location, as the photos and the associated descriptions they match clearly show, is the mass graves area of the "death camp" sector of Treblinka II extermination camp. From which of the graves there exactly the remains in question were projected to the surface by robbery digging is impossible to tell, for sure. But then, what the heck is it supposed to matter which of the graves exactly those remains are supposed to have come from? Asking for the "exact" location of a specific grave is obviously nothing but a charlatan’s subterfuge to avoid an exactly matching answer and have something to howl about. Gerdes asks for what he knows has not yet (for lack of an archaeological investigation at Treblinka) precisely established, not because establishing it would be necessary to proving mass murder at Treblinka (which is it not) but in order to hide behind his irrelevant question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
and was unable to prove that the photos he presented were actually taken at Treblinka II.
As I wrote in post # 1830 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...postcount=1830 , the question how we know that photos captioned as having been taken at Treblinka II and matching descriptions of the Treblinka II site but not of the Treblinka I site were taken at Treblinka II and not Treblinka I is arguably the most stupid of Gerdes’ recent questions, though not by a wide margin. It is also a lame attempt to shift the burden of proof. As the whole known context of these photos clearly points to their being Treblinka II photos, it is for Gerdes to provide evidence to the contrary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
With apologies to Hannover - this is so easy.
Jonni "Hannover" Hargis doesn’t seem to be convinced of this bigmouthed claim of his, otherwise he wouldn’t hide from open debate inside his warm and cozy Führerbunker. And neither does Gerdes seem to be convinced that he’s having an "easy" time with me, otherwise he wouldn’t have persistently refused, despite my many previous requests or challenges, to invite his CODOH buddies over to this VNN thread or at least give them the link.

But now one of his fellow true believers wants to know:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thesaint, in post of Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:40 pm,
Hello Greg,

Where is this boasting of your being "thrashed" by the dull one taking place?
Now Gerdes cannot run away anymore from providing the link, can he?

***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carto's Cutlass Supreme, in post of Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:06 am,
Vassily Grossman: didn't he work beside Ilya Ehrenberg as a Soviet propagandist? A year ago I saw his autobiography in Borders Bookstore history section.
I know Grossman worked with Ehrenburg, don’t know if as a "propagandist". How’s that supposed to affect the accuracy of his description of Treblinka insofar as confirmed by other evidence of which he had no knowledge?

"Carto’s Cutlass Supreme", by the way, seems to be identical with my old friend "denierbud", whose "One Third of the Holocaust" video trash I contributed to debunking, see under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...nks.html#debuv .

So here’s a challenge to "Carto’s Cutlass Supreme" aka "denierbud": register on this VNN thread (as you refused posting on the RODOH forum, on the pretext that – how frightfully shocking – people call each other names there) and have a chat here with me about your video clips and HC’s debunking thereof. I’ll invite my fellow HC bloggers so you can discuss each refutation with the one who wrote it.

Can I count on you, my friend?

Or are you as much a coward as your webmaster Jonni "Hannover" Hargis?

***

Back to Gerdes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Gerdes, in his post of Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:52 pm,
Thesaint:

"Hello Greg, Where is this boasting of your being "thrashed" by the dull one taking place?"

Vanguard News Network Forum >

Heritage subforum >

Archaeology, Anthropology & Animals subforum >

Archeological Investigations of Treblinka thread

http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=73168&page=92
The link would have been sufficient, but I’m glad to see that there’s finally a link to this VNN thread on the "CODOH Revisionist Forum". Whimpering coward though he is, Gerdes couldn’t just meet Thesaint’s question with deafening silence, for it would have made his mendacity and cowardice obvious to at least those of his pals not wholly devoid of brains. I wouldn’t be surprised if Gerdes now hated Thesaint for his inconvenient question, however.

Gerdes, post of Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:15 pm

Still nervous about having had to provide a link to the place where he's being shown for the lying and cowardly trash that he is, Gerdes tries to calm himself down by dishing up one of his old herrings:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Isn't it funny, how there are an alleged 35 million teeth alleged to be buried at Sobibor and Treblinka, yet mulecamp can't locate so much as one single one? Not even so much as one single little flake of tooth enamel.

Here is what thedullone has claimed about teeth at said "holocaust" sites (with my response):

Muehlenkamp:

"I never claimed that the victims of Treblinka disappeared "without leaving a trace", on the contrary... I never claimed that all teeth were reduced to tooth meal, on the contrary... I provided two sources expressly mentioning teeth on the grounds of Treblinka... there’s no reason to assume that he was wrong about the above-mentioned teeth... Any particular reason why this should not be enough to conclude that teeth were lying around on the Treblinka site? My reasonable explanation for expecting teeth to have been among the human remains means they didn’t crush all of them, as I have pointed out over and over again, quite a few must have been overlooked. Duh!... A claim which I never made - that all teeth were crushed... Actually, as Gerdes well knows, I never claimed that the crushing of teeth at Treblinka led to the obliteration of all of these teeth. In the mass graves, according to Kola, "there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay". These remains may well include teeth, lots of them."

Gerdes:

Yeah, lots and lots - as in millions and millions.

So why can't you prove the existence of just one dull one?
First of all, even if there were "millions and millions" of teeth lying in the ground at Treblinka and Sobibor (which is unlikely as cremation makes teeth very fragile and the cremation remains were crushed before being scattered or returned into the graves, so only a fraction of however many teeth the victims originally had can be expected to have survived this procedure), it’s not as it they would be so easy to find, as I demonstrated in my post # 1242 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...postcount=1242 :

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Now show us where the other 3,999,999 teeth are that are mixed with the 8.25 million pounds of crushed bone.
Your calculations are wrong, my dear Gerdes. And while I can show you any amount of human remains that logically follows from the documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence by simply referring to that evidence, I’d say that before I have to show anything bigmouth Gerdes should substantiate his assumptions, i.e.

1. Demonstrate that, despite the fragility resulting from cremation at high temperatures, most of the victims’ teeth must still be lying intact in the soil of Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka;

2. Provide a calculation as to what volume the number of teeth he can demonstrate to have probably survived must occupy inside the mass graves of Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka.

3. Demonstrate that it should be easy to find teeth when excavating the mass graves of Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka. That might well the hardest part of Gerdes’ exercise. Let’s say a tooth has a volume of 1 cubic centimeter or 0.000001 cubic meters. Even the 36 million teeth that Gerdes babbles about would then have a total volume of, go figure, just 36 cubic meters. Given a minimum mass grave volume of 88,700 cubic meters, see above, even 36 million teeth would occupy just 0.04 % of volume of the mass graves, the rest being other human remains (about 5.21 % of the total volume) and wood ash and soil (about 94.75 % of the volume).

This means that every surviving tooth inside the mass graves of Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka would be surrounded by:

a) a volume 128 times higher of other human remains, and
b) a volume 2,335 times higher of wood ash and soil, and
c) a volume 2,463 times higher of matter other than tooth.

Still trying to tell us that it would be easy to find teeth inside the mass graves, Mr. Gerdes?
Second, evidence showing or expressly mentioning teeth exists, including exhibits A.3.1.1 and A.3.1.6 from my post # 172 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=172 , also mentioned in my post # 1825 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...postcount=1825 . From Sobibor there even exists at least one photo of teeth, albeit artificial ones:



Prof. Kola’s archaeological team seems to have found lots of false teeth (looks like the denture of deportees to Sobibor wasn’t the best) during their 2001 investigation at Sobibor, by the way. They are mentioned in the excerpts from Prof. Kola’s report about that investigation quoted in my post # 1825 (emphases added):

Quote:
Some of the better preserved objects were taken into reconstruction for the future exposition. These were 73 fragments of female combs, 12 fragments of hair pins, 46 fragments of glasses, 19 glass lenses, 11 perfume bottles, 19 carbine (Mauser) and pistol shells, 3 Polish coins, a toothbrush, 2 necklaces, 9 rubber ends of walking sticks, 4 fragments of scissors, 2 locker keys, etc. 12 pairs of false teeth and fragments of torch batteries were found there as well.
[…]
What attracts attention are numerous objects found in its cultural layers – most probably belonging to victims, such as: false teeth, glasses and a glass lens, fragments of combs and hair pins, fragments of mirrors, fragments of plastic cigar holders, soap trays, underwear buttons, a spoon, fragments of a razor, empty bottles of perfume, belt buckles, knives, fragments of scissors, a razor blade.
[…]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
BTW, I'm still waiting for proof of just one single "huge mass grave" at Sobibor that contains this alleged "charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay." But not one single HC / RODOH freak can prove it.

NOT ONE!
Instead of hysterically howling around, Gerdes should take another look at my blog Mass Graves at Sobibor – 10th Update under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...th-update.html . There he will find archaeological documentation (maps and descriptions included in an archaeological report) and a matching satellite photo (ironically provided by dumb fuck Gerdes himself, whose foot must still be hurting from this shot) of at least four mass graves (counting only those that can also be seen from satellite perspective), the biggest of which is described as follows in Prof. Kola’s 2001 archaeological report (emphases added):

Quote:
Grave no 4. It’s a grave with significant size, located in southern part of hectare 11, as well as northern and central parts of hectare 18. It was excavated by 78 drills. Horizontally, in NS position, it measures 70 x 20-25 m with the depth of around 5m. In bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax- fat transformation. The upper layers are a mixture of burnt body remains with layers of lime stone, sand and charcoal.
He will also find ground photographs from my visit to Sobibor between 14 and 16 October 2001 (the one in which I was too meet Gerdes and some of his buddies on 15 October but found that Gerdes had run from our appointment like the miserable coward he is), including such that show human bone fragments obviously charred by fire. Further such photos are available under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/636...o-Sobibor.html .

Now, if Gerdes does not accept the above as proof of mass graves containing charred human remains and remains in wax-fat transformation at Sobibor, he should at least explain why not. And he should state what it is that he would accept as proof, and identify the rules and standards of evidence – other than his irrelevant own – that his requirements are based on.

Of course one shouldn’t expect a cowardly chimp like Gerdes to provide such explanation and statement. The best one can hope you get out of the fellow is a lame and meaningless "What part of the word 'proof' do you not understand" – bleating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
However, in response to my asking for proof of this fantastic claim, Jonathan Harrison called me a psychopath and Roberto Muehlenkamp called me fatso.
I don’t think Jonathan Harrison’s blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...-implodes.html was meant to be a response to any crap of Gerdes. It reads more like an observation from someone monitoring what happens on the "CODOH Revisionist Forum" and observed, just like me and anyone with eyes to see, that Gerdes has some serious psychological problems. I fully subscribe what Jonathan wrote about Gerdes and the other chicken, Jonni "Hannover" Hargis:

Quote:
The point is rapidly approaching where the only residents left at the asylum will be the psychopath Greg Gerdes, whose hobbies are not to be recommended to the young, and the resident moderator, Jonnie 'Hannover' Hargis.[…] At this rate of regression, Hargis is in danger of turning CODOH into a duet between himself and Gerdes, a man so dishonest that he pretends that "conclusive proof" in historiography must go beyond unreasonable doubt, not just reasonable doubt.
As to my "Fatso", that has nothing to do with Gerdes "asking for proof", as the lying coward well knows. It has to do with what the fellow looks like and with his cowardly refusal to post the simple statement that is all it takes for me to take him off "ignore" status. Thus the "Fatso" comes up in this context, like in my post # 1825:

Quote:
What Gerdes must do to break the "ignore" deadlock and get my discussion with him on this forum going again, as he well knows because I have told him many times, is to post a statement that reads as follows:

"I am prepared to, from now on, also answer questions and respond to challenges myself, and to address my opponent’s arguments and the evidence presented by my opponent (all of it)."

But that’s not about to happen, of course, because Fatso Gerdes:



it too much a



to post this simple statement.
Incidentally, who is latrine-mouth Gerdes, with his self-projecting "faggot" and "retardo" and other crap, to complain about being called comparatively civilized (and, unlike his verbiage, altogether appropriate) names?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Should one consider that proof of just one "huge mass grave" that contains just 1/10 of 1% of the alleged mass murder? Could it even be called evidence? Mmmm, no, I don't think it is.
No, the evidence – not to "1/10 of 1%" of the mass murder at Sobibor and Treblinka, but to the whole of it – is elsewhere in my posts, and mostly ignored by a coward who doesn’t dare even look at it. The "Fatso" is just an appropriate manifestation of warranted contempt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Maybe just 1/10 of 1% is just too hard of a challenge for those boys?
Actually the "boys" can manage 100 % by any reasonable standards. But the day Gerdes (or any other "Revisionist" freak) is able to provide even the slightest shred of evidence that might point to a scenario other than the mass murder that all known evidence points to will also be the day when hens have teeth.

In the next post on this CODOH thread, written on Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:16, the cowardly Greek clown "KostasL" writes something that will make poor Gerdes freak out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KostasL
Greg, i expect that there exists one or more mass graves at Treblinka.
Actually there was more than one, the area covered by these graves must have been around 20,000 square meters (judging by the size of the area covered by human remains projected to the surface by robbery-digging when Polish criminal investigators were on site in late 1945), and their depth must have been at least 7.5 meters (judging by the depth to which human remains were found buried in a crater blown by robbery-diggers into one of these graves). See my blog article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html for details.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KostasL
Would it be a proof that Treblinka was an extermination camp if one was able to locate a mass grave containing the remains of let's say a couple of thousands people ?

No, i don't think so.
Actually proof that Treblinka was an extermination camp doesn’t call for locating even a single mass grave but can be provided on hand of documentary and eyewitness evidence alone. However, I think that a mass grave 7.5 meters deep containing what the documented deportees to Treblinka were reduced to according to eyewitness testimonies, in an area large enough to contain such graves in sufficient size and number to bury those documented deportees, is strong if unnecessary corroboration of the documentary and eyewitness evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KostasL
In the Treblinka case the evidence need to be according to the alleged extermination numbers.
So, it is necessary for all the other alleged extermination camps.
The evidence is according to the "alleged" extermination numbers, my dear Kostas. The eyewitness testimonies are, the deportation documents are, the demographic data are, and the size and contents of the mass graves also are. All known evidence is compatible with mass murder on the "alleged" scale, while there’s not the slightest evidence supporting an alternative scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KostasL
If there will be evidence for 15-20% of the alleged number of victims then we shall talk about an extermination camp.
Then it’s about time for you to do that, for there’s conclusive documentary and eyewitness and matching physical evidence for at least the people deported to these camps until the end of 1942 – 435,508 to Belzec, 101,370 to Sobibor and 713,555 to Treblinka according to Höfle’s report to Heim of 11 January 1943, see under http://www.death-camps.org/reinhard/prodecodes.html .

Quote:
Originally Posted by KostasL
So, if they manage to provide a 1% it would practically mean nothing at all.
That’s right, physically showing human remains corresponding to 1 % of the victims wouldn’t mean much. That’s one of the reasons why Gerdes’ idiotic demands are irrelevant, and why proving the mass murder at these camps (which has long been done) and providing the evidence that supposedly will make Gerdes pay out 100,000 dollars are two entirely different pairs of boots. Bravo, Kostas! Quite an achievement for a sparrow-brain like you.

In his post of Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:22 pm, Gerdes provides another (however unnecessary) insight into his infantile mind by making a fuss about Vassili Grossman’s somewhat poetic description of what he saw on the Treblinka site:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
BTW, if, as Vassili Grossman says, "The earth... does not want to keep secrets," then why doesn't the earth "throw out" just 1/10 of 1% of the alleged mass murder at Sobibor and Treblinka?

Can anyone talk to the earth about this? Why did the earth not want to keep secrets when Grossman was at Treblinka, but decided, after he left, to keep secrets? Why is the earth being so fickle?

I would really like to discuss this with the earth. Does anyone have the earths phone number? Address? email?
Welcome to "Revisionist" kindergarten, folks. Just in the improbable case that Gerdes’ previous gems left you with any doubts about what "brilliant" minds "Revisionism" appeals to.

In response to this feeble-minded crap,

Quote:
Originally Posted by KostasL
Vassili Grossman tells a big truth. Earth does not want to keep secrets. Cool

She is screaming for decades that there was no holocaust. The Holocaustians pretend they are deaf. Embarassed
Is anyone still wondering why one of the more intelligent CODOH posters, Laurentz Dahl, left the place after stating that it was being overrun by idiots?

Anyway, KostasL’s mentioning that he expects at least one mass grave to exist at Treblinka was already enough to make Gerdes perspire. In his post of Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:47, Gerdes responded with the following "argument":

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
KostasL:

"Greg, i expect that there exists one or more mass graves at Treblinka."

Well KostasL, my response to that is:

I don’t see an elephant in my basement. If there were an elephant in my basement, I would certainly see it. Therefore, there is no elephant in my basement.
Hardly an appropriate parallel, to put it politely. If "elephant in my basement" is supposed to refer to physical impossibility, there’s nothing about the historical record of mass murder at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, based on assessment of eyewitness, documentary and physical evidence by criminal investigators and historians, that would be physically impossible. And the eyewitness, documentary and physical evidence is plain to see for anyone who doesn’t switch off his brain so as not to see it. If Gerdes’ position is that only what is on photographs or can be touched is real, then there goes most of human history in the poor fellow’s mind, as well as most of his past life.

Given the chance to see and touch physical remains of Sobibor’s victims and the graves in which they were buried, as shown under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/636...o-Sobibor.html , the whimpering coward instructively weaseled out, by the way (see my post # 1525 under http://206.41.127.17/showpost.php?p=...postcount=1525 ).

And of course I also expect him to weasel out if invited to watch the results of upcoming archaeological work at Sobibor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
What do you base your expectations on?
He seems to be less a chimp than Gerdes. Not that it takes much, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Let's look at Sobibor for instance. Do you expect there to be one or more graves at Sobibor? There is even more so-called "evidence" for that claim, as it is that based on the alleged claim that one or more "huge mass graves" have been found.
Actually the "alleged claim" (note the redundancy) is an archaeologist’s report that includes the plotting of mass graves on a map in places where they can also be seen on a satellite photo (stupidly provided by Gerdes himself) that was taken 7 years after that report, with technical means that the archaeologist didn’t have at his disposal in 2001. This convergence of independent elements of evidence, or even the archaeologist’s report alone, is conclusive evidence by any reasonable standards, especially as it is matched by what all documentary and eyewitness evidence tells us about the mass murder at Sobibor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The claim for Sobibor is that the alleged holocaust there has been PROVEN.
Actually the "claim" is a conclusion, and it’s the only reasonable conclusion considering the evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Now, if they can't prove what they claim to have proven at Sobibor, if there isn't so much as one single grave that contains so much as 1/10 of 1% of the alleged mass murder there despite all the claims of it being proven, then how can you expect anything that they say about Treblinka to be true?
The question is something of a non-sequitur, but before that it is based on a mistaken assumption. It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, on hand of documentary and eyewitness evidence, that the remains of at least about 150,000 people lie in the mass graves at Sobibor. And the archaeological investigation carried out in 2001 further corroborated this proof by finding mass graves big enough for these remains and what the archaeologist’s description suggests are high quantities of human remains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
You say KostasL, that you - "expect that there exists one or more mass graves at Treblinka."

What do you base this expectation on?
See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Can you provide any evidence what-so-ever to back up this expectation?
Easily. All he needs are the exhibits listed in my # 172 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=172 .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Remember, I'm talking about the Treblinka II site proper, not the cemetery between Treblinka I and II camps.
What "cemetery between Treblinka I and II camps"? There is no such cemetery outside Gerdes’ fantasies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Finding graves / bodies in a cemetery can hardly be considered proof of anything.
That depends on the size and contents of the graves (at Treblinka II they covered an area of 20,000 square meters, judging by size of the area covered by human remains projected to the surface by robbery digging, and they must have been at least 7.5 meters deep, judging by the depth to which human remains were found in a crater blasted by robbery diggers into one of them).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Look at the nafcash site.
Yeah, look at the psychopath's multi-colored and multi-sized hysteria. It’s instructive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Look at the photo of the camp and then answer this question:

Where in the area of the Treblinka II camp site do you - "expect that there exists one or more mass graves?"
Hint: if the photo being shown is one of September 1944, go to the most barren and churned-up part and you’ll be on the right track. That’s where the Treblinka "death camp" sector with its mass graves used to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Can you locate / prove the existence of just one?
He can prove the existence of as many as correspond to the documented minimum number of victims, if he switches on his brain and takes a look at the evidence. He may not yet be able to locate the mass graves, if location is meant in the sense of a square on an archaeologist’s grid. The ground is too churned up on this photo to make such location possible from the air (at Sobibor, however, four of the seven mass graves located by Prof. Kola in 2001 can be seen with the naked eye on a satellite photo provided by dumb fuck Gerdes himself).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
NOTE: Neither the Soviet nor Polish investigation teams were able to substantiate the “eyewitnesses” absurd, physically impossible tall tales of mass murder, or the equally absurd alleged cremation / cover-up operation.
Actually there’s nothing absurd or physically impossible about the mass murder, cremation and cover up as described by eyewitnesses, even if these may have exaggerated or been mistaken concerning one or the other detail. Killing and burning at least about 750,000 people at Treblinka in 1942/43 in the manner reconstructed by criminal investigators and historians based on eyewitness testimony was neither physically impossible nor logistically impracticable. And the physical evidence found by Polish investigators – human remains covering an area of 20,000 square meters excavated in that area to a depth of 7.5 meters – corroborates the magnitude of the killing that becomes apparent from the documentary evidence, as pointed out in my blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The only human remains ever (possibly) found on site (by the Poles) were the desecrated remains of the bodies dug out of the nearby cemetery by the Soviets.
Utter nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
In fact, the Polish investigation team leader Zdzislaw Lukaszkiewicz even admitted after excavating the alleged “Lazarette pit” that: “At the end of the work... There were no human remains found.”
In what he thought to be the "Lazarett" pit, yeah. But in this other pit there were plenty of human remains, to a depth of 7.5 meters:

Quote:
The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition.[208] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
He also admitted in his summary of his investigation: "During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves."
As the pit described in the previous quote from Lukaszkiewicz’ report can only have been a former mass grave 7.5 meters deep, and as the presence of human remains over an area of 20,000 square meters also described by Lukaszkiewicz:

Quote:
In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of« wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay.
suggests the presence of various mass graves filled with human cremation remains in that area, Lukaszkiewicz’ statement that he found "no mass graves" can only be interpreted in the sense that he found no mass graves full of stinking dead bodies (as opposed to ashes, bone fragments and other partial remains), as the context of this statement also suggests (emphasis added):

Quote:
During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves, which, in connection with the statements by the witnesses Romanowski and Wiernik, leads to the conclusion that nearly all of the bodies of the victims were burned, all the more so since the camp was liquidated early and the murderers had much time.
But I guess that’s too hard for Gerdes’ sparrow-brain to grasp. Or then he’s just too dishonest to acknowledge it, even though I explained it to him many times before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
IF there were graves at the Treblinka II site, then why didn't the Soviets or the Poles find them?
Actually at least the Poles did find them. They found the mass graves area, and they excavated to the bottom of one of the mass graves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Why did the Soviets have to go a mile away to A CEMETERY to locate any bodies what-so-ever?
The Soviets also investigated Treblinka I labor camp, where the bodies of deceased or killed inmates had not been burned. And of course Gerdes cannot provide any evidence that would corroborate his insane claim that the Soviets disturbed a civilian cemetery.

Not content with the sermon commented above, and obviously still appalled by his brother-in-spirits having considered the possibility of there being even one mass grave at Treblinka, poor Gerdes harangued KostasL once more in his post of Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:00 :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
"Greg, i expect that there exists one or more mass graves at Treblinka."

KostasL, I'm not trying to be hard on you or anything, but what I think is behind your expectation is the psychology of the big-lie technique at work.

I just challenge people who believe that there must be some truth to the big lie the same way I challenge people who believe the entire big lie.

There was no Treblinka holocaust.

There are no graves at Treblinka.

No graves = No holocaust
Doesn’t this sound like the poor fellow is desperately trying to convince himself of something he is eager to believe in but doesn’t quite believe in?

As to the fellow’s stating that he "challenges" people, this gets us back to what I wrote in my post # 1536 under http://206.41.127.17/showpost.php?p=...postcount=1536 , in which I put Gerdes on ignore:

Quote:
Third, a general question: who the fuck do you think you are to ask questions, make demands and claim you´re "waiting" for this and that?

If you were prepared to respond to questions and attend demands yourself, you might be entitled to ask questions and make demands yourself. But as you dodge all questions you are asked and ignore all demands that are made on you, I don´t see on what basis you can consider yourself entitled to throw around questions and demands yourself.

That applies all the more as you´re a liar whose lies I ceased to care counting long ago, a whimpering coward and an obvious hoaxer, as last and most prominently shown by your having failed, after all your bigmouthed bragging laden with invective and threats, to honor our appointment at Sobibor on 15.10.2008.
Will Gerdes ever meet any challenges himself, instead of just hiding behind his own idiotic "challenges"?

Will he ever have the guts to post this simple statement:

Quote:
"I am prepared to, from now on, also answer questions and respond to challenges myself, and to address my opponent’s arguments and the evidence presented by my opponent (all of it)."
which as he knows is all he must do to break the ignore deadlock and get our discussion on this forum going again?

No, that’s not going to happen.

It’s not going to happen because because Fatso Gerdes:



it too much a



to post this simple statement.

So the ignore situation remains as concerns discussion on this forum.