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Old June 13th, 2008 #20
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Roberta:

"I could do without the photos"

Yes Roberta, you will be doing without those 7 photos if you can't prove that they were taken at / in Treblinka.
I would have no problem with that, but the burden of proof that these photos are not what all associated evidence shows them to be, i.e. postwar photographs of the Treblinka site, lies with bigmouth Gerdes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And BTW folks, Roberta is singing the same "I can do without the photos" nonsense in our "debates" about Belzec, Chelmno and Sobibor also.
… where, despite several requests that he do so, Gerdes has never even tried to explain why photos should be seen as a necessary and indispensable documentation of the physical evidence, and what rules or standards of evidence he can show us stipulate such necessity. The best the poor fellow can do is to lamely call my position "nonsense", go figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
She is getting very very desperate as the noose tightens and she senses what is happening to her.
Again projecting your own situation onto your opponent, Gerdes?

Or are you trying to convince your "White" buddies that you’re winning this, hoping they will be dumb enough to fall for your hollow bragging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Roberta:

"Not that it matters... what exactly would you accept as proof that the photographs were taken at Treblinka, Mr. Gerdes?"

The name of the photographer, the date the photos, the alleged location in the camp that they were taken and all the other photos taken by the photographer in Treblinka / on that day. That is just a start.
That’s quite a lot, especially when coming from who carries the burden of proof that the photographs do not show what according to all associated evidence they do. Does the spoilt little brat also want me to buy him an ice-cream on top of all he yells for?

The name of the photographer can be provided. On pages 82/83 of their Treblinka book, Mattogno & Graf write the following (emphasis mine):

Quote:
After the conclusion of the previously described investigations, the Treblinka matter was allowed to rest for more than a year. But the preparations for the Nuremberg Trial awakened the interest of the Jewish Central Historical Commission as well as of the Polish State Prosecutor’s office for that camp. On November 6, 1945, the latter carried out an inspection trip to Treblinka, in which participated: Rachel Auerbach and Józef Kermisz as representatives of the said Jewish Commission, Judge Zdzislaw Lukaszkiewicz, State Prosecutor J. Maciejewski, land surveyor K. Trautsolt, the witnesses Samuel Rajzman, Tanhum Grinberg, Szimon Friedman, and M. Mittelberg – all members of the Association of Former Treblinka Inmates – J. Slebczak, President of the district council of Siedlce, Major Jucharek from the neighboring village of Wólka Okrąglik, and finally photographer Jakob Byk.
Of the six post-liberation Treblinka photos shown in my RODOH thread Mass Graves and Dead Bodies under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/596...ad-Bodies.html :

1. Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5807_1_web.jpg

2. Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg

3. Human skeletal remains in the Treblinka camp.

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5810_1_web.jpg

4. Heaps of ashes on the grounds of the Treblinka camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5809_1_web.jpg

5. One of the enormous pits in the Treblinka camp into which the victims' corpses (and later, ashes) were thrown.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg

6. A heap of ashes in the Treblinka camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5814_1_web.jpg

, photographs 2 and 4 show the name of the photographer: "J. Byck, Warszawa", who is obviously identical with the "Jacob Byk" mentioned by Mattogno & Graf. This means that the photographs were taken during the site inspection/investigation carried out between 6 November and 13 November 1945. Photographer Byk/Byck seems to have been part of the investigation team headed by Examining Judge Zdzislaw Lukaszkiewicz, and all above photographs are from the same collection (Ghetto Fighters Museum), so it seems reasonable to assume that photographs 1, 3, 5 and 6 were taken by Mr. Byk/Byck as well.

The exact date of the photographs I don’t know, but it must have been between 6 November and 13 November 1945.

The collection of photographs under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html includes two photos:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp40.jpg

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp39.jpg

that show exactly the same as the above numbers 4 and 6 and were thus obviously taken by the same photographer, with the same camera and at the same time.

Of the other photos under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html , these three:

7. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp41.jpg

8. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp43.jpg

9. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp42.jpg

look to my like they were taken with the same camera, so I would attribute them to Mr. Byk/Byck and the period between 6 and 13 November 1945 as well.

This photograph:

10. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp35.jpg

may also be from the same source, but it is equally possible that it was taken during the Soviet investigation preceding the Polish one.

This photograph:

11. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp44.jpg

is obviously from the Soviet investigation, as captioned.

The remaining photographs

12. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp46.jpg

13. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp47.jpg

14. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp48.jpg

15. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp49.jpg

16. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp50.jpg

17. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp51.jpg

look like they have been taken with a camera other than that of Mr. Byk/Byck. As the investigators in the last photo look like civilians rather than Red Army soldiers, however, it is possible that these photos are related to a Polish site inspection/investigation other than the one headed by judge Lukaszkiewicz, maybe the inspection/investigation involving Mr. Karol Ogrodowczyk from Warsaw that is mentioned in the Polish newspaper article translated into English under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/588...Treblinka.html . This photo of skulls on the Treblinka site:

18. http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_3.jpg

, which is included in that newspaper article, may be related to the Ogrodowczyk inspection/investigation as well.

On the other hand, this photo:

19. http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_2.jpg

shows the result of a Polish militia action against robbery diggers and must have been part of the corresponding militia report. In my translation of the Polish newspaper article about the "Gold Rush in Treblinka", this photo is addressed in some detail:

Quote:
In one of the huts in Wólka we got to see a unique photo of this action - perhaps the only one that survived. No one had so far published it. A scene in the open field: soldiers armed with machine pistols are standing around a group of villagers. The women with headscarves and long skirts, as if on harvest. Only there are spades instead of sickles in their hands. The men with berets and jackets, with spades. Piled up in front of them are skulls and limb bones. No consternation is to be seen on the faces. Those arrested know that they have nothing to fear.

We figure how many inhabitants of Wólka, Grądy and Prostyń may recognize their parents and grandparents on this photo. We read the report about the roundup, which the head of the unit from Ostrowa presented to his superiors: "With the grave robbers we found golden rings, crowns and porcelain teeth with gold and silver inlays."

In the archives there is no indication that anyone was put on trial for pilfering graves. The show-off action was completed, photos of those arrested were made, a report was sent out, the military returned to its barracks, the grave robbers - to Treblinka. The intensive rummaging doesn't stop for the next 15 years.

"The people have learned the difference between almonds and diamonds," says the house owner whom we show the photo. For a long time he studies the faces on the photograph. He doesn't want to reveal who he recognized, but he admits: "These are no anonymous people". Several times he repeats that, were we to mention his name in the "Gazeta", the neighbors would set fire to his house.
As to the "alleged" (why so scared, Mr. Gerdes?) location in the camp where these photographs were taken, the likeliest choice is the area described as follows in Lukaszkiewicz’ report of 29.12.1945, quoted in my article Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure … under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html :

Quote:
In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of« wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay.
However, Mr. Gerdes is free to point out another location described in this report or the one of 13.11.1945 that better fits what can be seen on the photographs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
When you can do that, we will get into the analysis of the photos.
Such “analysis” should start by pointing out indications that, contrary to what is shown by all associated evidence and what can be established about the photographs’ author, date and place (see above), these photos show another place and other objects than those they obviously show. Maybe Mr. Gerdes can point out some Montana ridge or Peoria building in the background. Good luck, Mr. Gerdes!