Quote:
|
>In summarizing my “debate” with Roberto Muehlenkamp, we can start with my foundational >question to her:
|
Boy, that's the first time Gerdes called me by my actual name. Was he having a lucid moment?
Quote:
>“Roberta, can you locate the alleged “huge mass graves” of Treblinka on this Sept., 1944 >aerial map of Treblinka?”
>http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap ...
>After initially claiming, repeatedly, that it would be impossible to do so, Roberta then said that, >yes, after further analysis, she could indeed locate some of the alleged “huge mass graves” of <Treblinka on said aerial photo and presented the following analysis as “proof:”
>http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/cortag ...
>(Remember her own words:“I think that 1, 2 and 3 are in all probability pits for corpses which >were used during the first phase of Treblinka and 4 is the "Lazarett.")
>Please note: She also presented the following “eyewitness testimony” of Abraham Krzepicki >and Jankiel Wiernik which she claims “proves” the accuracy of her analysis:
>http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/38414/t/Treb ...
|
... and which Gerdes very feebly and unsuccessfully tried to discredit.
Several times I asked Gerdes a question, which is still standing:
What, if not mass graves, are the ground-scarring shapes I pointed out on the September 1944 photograph supposed to have been?
There’s a good reason for Gerdes having run away from this question throughout our discussion, of course. He cannot provide anything like a plausible explanation for why the operation of a shitty little "transit camp" should have left behind this ground scarring, the likeliest explanation for which is that it corresponds to mass graves in the Treblinka "reception" area, as described by Abraham Krzepicki and Jankiel Wiernik.
Here we have arrived at Gerdes’ first lie in his summarizing of our discussion. Photographs were submitted in response to Gerdes’ "show me just one photo" - babbling but not stated to be the documentation of the physical evidence at Treblinka. That documentation, as I made clear throughout this discussion, consists in the Polish site investigation reports again quoted in my post # 498 under
http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p24#c498, which mention all the investigators’ findings on site while the photographs do nothing more than illustrate a small part of these findings.
Quote:
>She also claimed that the existence of at least one “huge mass grave” of Treblinka has been >proven and presented the following photograph as her “proof:”
>An open mass grave in Treblinka in 1943. Arad, Yitzhak; The Pictorial History of the >Holocaust, p. 299
>http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/imgs_trebl ...
|
Actually, as I have stated several times throughout this discussion, I consider proof of at least one mass grave to be contained in the following excerpt from examining judge Lukaszkiewicz’ report of 13.11.1945:
Quote:
|
«The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition.[208] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.»
|
On the other hand, I don’t remember having stated that I consider the photograph shown under
http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/i...mass_grave.htm to be proof, in and by itself, of one of the Treblinka mass graves. But perhaps Gerdes can give me the number of the post where I’m supposed to have done so. What’s the post number, Gerdes?
Quote:
>And she again presented her analysis of this alleged “physical evidence:”
>http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/cortag ...
>(Remember her own words:“Shapes pointed out look human. They are neither wooden planks >not tarpaulin sheets.”)
|
This analysis was made in response to Gerdes’ question whether dead bodies could be made out on the photograph in question, IIRC. Actually I don’t consider this photograph to be very illustrative, because it shows only a small part of the pit in question and the bodies in the mass grave are mostly covered by what looks like wooden planks and tarpaulin sheets. And, as I have pointed out throughout this discussion, I don’t consider photographs in general to be significant elements of evidence, but rather see them as a means of illustrating what becomes apparent from other evidence.
Yet Gerdes seems to be so afraid of this photograph that he baselessly calls into question its authenticity with the inevitable "alleged" baloney. Poor Gerdes.
That’s Gerdes’ lie # 2 in this "summarizing" of his, for I never claimed that the photograph under
http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...Figure36.shtml is proof of the homicidal gas chambers. What I did state, as far as I remember, was that the building visible on this photograph can be identified, by comparison with eyewitness descriptions, as having been the gas chamber building of Treblinka extermination camp.
Actually the most interesting object on that photograph is the excavator. Gerdes hasn’t yet stopped running away from my question what excavators would have been doing in what he claims was just a "transit camp".
Quote:
>Then, when asked if the alleged “huge mass graves” of Treblinka could be located today, she >said that they could not because “grave robbers” had obliterated all traces of them in their >search for “jewish gold” and presented the following “evidence” for this alleged “Treblinka Gold >Rush” and resultant obliteration of said graves:
>http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/92506/t/Gold ...
|
And there were are with Gerdes’ lie # 3 in his summarizing. Actually I stated at least twice that I didn’t rule out the possibility of identifying the Treblinka mass graves, or what robbery digging left of their structures, through an archaeological excavation like the one carried out at Belzec in 1997-1999 that managed to locate and identify 33 mass graves at that place.
Quote:
>Then, when asked if she could prove the existence of so much as a single tooth found at >Treblinka, she claimed that the above link also “proves” that teeth were found at the site and >offered the following quote from said link as “proof” of this:
>“In the peasant's pockets there were golden rings and teeth of Jews… With the grave robbers >we found golden rings, crowns and porcelain teeth with gold and silver inlays."
>She then went on to add that the following quote from Vassili Grossman’s report of his alleged >investigation offers additional “proof” that teeth were reportedly seen at Treblinka:
>"The earth is throwing out crushed bones, teeth, clothes, papers."
>Please note: You can read about Grossman’s alleged investigation here:
>http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/95592/t/Treb ...
>And here:
>http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php ...
|
Poor Gerdes seems to be so afraid of Grossman's mention of teeth at Treblinka that he always hastens to point out a "Revisionist" thread presumably making a fuss about exaggerated measurements and other figures in Grossman’s account, as if this would call into doubt the accuracy of Grossman’s mention of objects he saw with his own eyes.
Quote:
>Please note: Her claim that teeth were found at Treblinka totally contradicts her earlier claim >that the Germans had obliterated the tens of millions of teeth by crushing them into “tooth >meal” with “plugs,” which she claimed was done / looked like this:
>http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/cortag ...
|
Actually, as Gerdes well knows, I never claimed that the crushing of ashed teeth following incineration at Treblinka led to the obliteration of
<all> of these teeth, which means that here we have Gerdes’ stinking lie # 4 in this summarizing of his. A lie that Gerdes has been repeating more than once and that has been pointed out as such every time, though not as often as other mendacious straw-men Gerdes has been dishing up throughout this discussion.
Quote:
|
>However, when asked why no one has ever been able to locate even one of the alleged “huge >mass graves” of Treblinka or even an iota of the remains of the alleged millions of pounds of >crushed bone, tens of millions of teeth, tens of thousands of bullets and shell casings or so >much as a single corpse which she claims were left in the bottom of the “huge mass graves” in >a “wax-fat transformation,”
|
The assumption underlying Gerdes’ question why no one has been able to locate this and that is a lie plain and simple, for Gerdes has been referred more than once to site investigation reports describing what physical traces of the killing Polish investigators found on the Treblinka site. The figures he throws around may impress impressionable suckers, but actually it can be mathematically demonstrated, as I have shown in this discussion, that the expectable remains of the incineration of about 750,000 people occupy but a small part of the presumable volume of the Treblinka mass graves. Gerdes howling about "tens of thousands of bullets and shell casings" obviously presumes that these objects, easy to identify and pick up after each shooting, were just left lying around by his SS-heroes (who, of course, were not as stupid and careless as their admirer).
Quote:
|
>she claims the reason is because there is a “20,000 square meter concrete plate” which >covers the entire alleged “huge mass graves” area and all the alleged physical evidence and >presented this photo as “proof:”
|
As I never claimed that "no one has been able to locate" human remains on the Treblinka site (see above), I cannot possibly have made the statement that is here attributed to me, so that’s Gerdes’ lie # 5.
The concrete plate supporting the present-day memorial, about the area of which I don’t remember having made a definite statement, was mentioned, IIRC, as an obstacle to carrying out an archeological investigation at Treblinka like was carried out at Belzec by Prof. Kola in 1997-1999. In order to try identifying the Treblinka mass graves, the memorial and the concrete plate it rests on would first have to be removed.
Shall we count this as Gerdes’ lie # 6, folks? Nah, let’s be generous. We can afford it as more obvious lies will follow.
Actually this photograph was provided to illustrate/corroborate the information about the Treblinka memorial provided by a Polish historian, cited in the Polish newspaper article translated under
http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/925...ml#reply-92506, and a tour guide referred to under httphttp://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Treblinka/Treblinka05.html.
As Gerdes well knows that I have never stated a photograph to be proof of anything in and by itself, I’ll count this claim as his lie # 6.
Quote:
|
>And that’s it folks! Seriously, that’s all the alleged physical evidence there is for the Treblinka >holocaust!
|
No, the documentation of the physical evidence is not in any of the photographs I have shown, or in any number of those photographs. As Gerdes well knows, I have always referred to the site investigation reports as documentation of the physical evidence, and to photographs of the site as mere illustrations of that documentation (which means that this is Gerdes' lie # 7). Just how telling the documented physical evidence is has been pointed out in my article
"Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure …" under
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html, referred to several times throughout this discussion.
Quote:
|
>And please do take the time to read the alleged “eyewitness and documentary evidence” that I >included at Roberta’s insistence. Seriously, she actually claims that that nonsense actually >substantiates the “physical evidence” she presented!
|
Ladies & Gentlemen, this is how a charlatan tackles eyewitness evidence he feebly tried to discredit and documentary evidence he didn’t even dare to address: he bluntly calls it "nonsense" and hopes that his readers will be suckers enough to accept that and not check whether the evidence in question is what Gerdes claims it to be.
Just in case there might be some more critical people among our audience, Gerdes avoided providing a link where such readers can find the eyewitness and documentary evidence I provided and decide for themselves if what Gerdes calls "nonsense" is not actually sufficient evidence to prove the mass murder at Treblinka even without an assessment of the physical evidence.
In my post # 482 under
http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p23#c482, readers can find a list of the documentary and eyewitness evidence that Gerdes tried but failed to handle or didn’t even dare to address, with links to posts and articles quoting or referring to that evidence.
Please note that Gerdes, contradicting his previous baseless attempt to limit the record of evidence to physical evidence, seems to be now signaling that he considers eyewitness and documentary evidence relevant. And he is also expressing his uneasiness about that evidence. Why else would he dispute the authenticity of the evidence in question by calling it "alleged" evidence? Looks like Gerdes is well aware that what he lamely calls "nonsense" is not nearly as nonsensical as he would like it to be.