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Old September 8th, 2010 #5
Alex Linder
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quotations from The Christ Files, bolding added by me, it is not in the original

With the exception of Mara bar Serapion, who paints Jesus as a philosophical martyr, pagans saw Jesus as a dissident and religious pretender. His execution was thus well deserved. pp. 23-4

[Ch. 2 is about pagan views of Jesus; ch. 3 about jew views. His point is they are as one in seeing Boozus as a ne'er-do-well.]

So, how did the Jews react to Jesus? The question is complicated. Remember, all of the first believers were Jews (who happened to believe their Messiah had come). For instance, the apostle Paul, whose letters make up a large part of the New Testament, was a Pharisee (a highly observant Jew) who claimed to have witnessed Jesus alive from the grave. p. 25

[Do you suppose a jew who changed his name from Saul would lie?]

The Gospels - the New Testament biographies about Jesus - are also substantially Jewish. Their material comes from Jews who followed Jesus as Jews.

Before we look at the Gospels I want to focus on the four references to Jesus written by Jews who did not believe he was the promised Messiah-Christ. As we will see, some of the harshest criticisms of Jesus came not from the pagans -- who mainly saw Jesus as an oddity -- but from his fellow countrymen. p. 26

Flavius Josphus was a first century Jewish aristocrat, military general and historian (AD 37-100). In his massive Jewish Antiquities he provides an account of the entire history of the Jewish people up to his day. In discussing various Jewish disturbances during the governorship of Pontius Pilate Josephus offers a brief comment about Pilate's treatment of a certain Jewish teacher named Jesus.

More has been written on this single paragraph than on any other section in Josephus' works... Part of the reason for this is that the text, while clearly referring to Jesus of Nazareth, shows signs of Christian 'tampering'. Somewhere along the line a Christian scribe copying out
Jewish Antiquities appears to have added phrases so as to make Josephus' original statement about Jesus (which was probably neutral or negative) quite glowing. Nevertheless, there is a wide consensus among scholars...that Josephus wrote the main sentences of Jewish Antiquities 18.63-64. Let me quote the passage with the (probable) Christian additions placed in square brackets:

At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man [
if indeed one ought to refer to him as a man]. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who received the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. [He was the Messiah-Christ]. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. [For on the third day he appeared to them again alive, just as the divine prophets had spoken about these and countless other marvellous things about him]. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out. p. 26-7

[There is also an Arabic/non-Greek version of text in which it may be Josephus himself rather than crissy helper saying Jesus PERHAPS was the messiah-christ. Notice also that jew Josephus blames "the leading men among us, ie jews, for getting jesus executed, whereas modern kikes blame Romans.]

[Two sections later Josephus refers to 'the so-called Messiah-Christ'. Josephus claims Jesus' brother James was martyred by the Sanhedrin about thirty years after Jesus.]

[So, the four hostile jew refs to jesus come two from Josephus, two from the Talmud. Contrast how the christian weanus puts it vs the way WN would.]

In a section of the Talmud known as baraitha Sanhedrin 43a-b (dated AD 100-200) we find the following report of Jesus' crimes, trial and execution:

On the eve of Passover Jesus was hanged (on a cross). For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth tobe stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray. Anyone who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour, he was hanged on the eve of Passover.

The reference to the forty-day advance notice for Jesus' execution is questionable in the opinion of most historians and probably reflects an attempt on the part of ancient authors to emphasise Jesus' culpability. In any case, several details in the passage coincide with our prior knowledge of Christ: his wide fame as a wonder-worker ('sorcerer') and the method and timing of his execution (crucifixion near the Passover festival). The text also makes it clear that it was the Jewish Sanhedrin (the ruling council in Jerusalem) that authorised Jesus' death:
baraitha Sanhedrin is all about the functions of the Sanhedrin. The Christian Gospels say pretty much the same thing, adding that the Roman authorities also played a decisive role. pp.29-30

In a later section of the Talmud (post AD 200) we hear again the rumour that Jesus was the product of his mother's affair with a Roman soldier named Pantera. Hence, Jesus is called Ben Pantera (son of Pantera):

Ben Stada is Ben Pantera. The husband was Stada, the lover was Pantera. The mother was Mary the dresser of women's hair. She has been false to her husband (
baraitha Shabbat 104b).

[...] Perhaps the best we can say is that the statements of Celsus and the Talmud, combined with what we read in the Christian Gospels, testify to the widespread belief that Jesus' conception and birth were not altogether typical.


[Classic crissy gerbilism. He's a believer, but he lacks the guts to say the kikes are a bunch of malicious liars, lying about his lord and savior. Those in the sane sector have no reason to believe any of these mental perverts.]

[From the above summary of pagan/jew-hostile sources Dickson claims we can establish a few things, although not the important ones. We know about the creature: its name, mother, odd birth, activity frame (Palestine 26-36), brother James, fame as teacher and wonder worker, called by some the messiah, time/place/manner of execution, involvement of both Roman and jewish leadership in execution, eclipse around time of execution, reappearing to followers AFTER execution, flourishing cult worshipping him after his death.]

[end of ch. 3, will pick up ch 4 in new post below]

Last edited by Alex Linder; September 8th, 2010 at 03:58 PM.