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Old September 3rd, 2013 #1
john-connor
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Default Exclusive: David Irving - the hate that dare not speak its name

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...e-8792411.html

David Irving cuts a lonely figure in the lobby of the Bull Hotel in Peterborough. Wearing a blue suit and a purple tie, the historian and convicted Holocaust denier sits uncomfortably on a chair he has pulled out from the nearby bar. He’s here to welcome ticketholders for the latest stop on his secretive UK lecture tour.

“And you are?” he asks visitors who pause to look at him. I give him the name of the friend I had asked to buy a ticket so that I could attend his talk, entitled The Life and Death of Heinrich Himmler. “Upstairs, the Wakeford room,” he says, adding: “I’m just intercepting people as they come in.”

A small group mingles awkwardly around a conference table stacked with Irving’s books. DVDs, including two versions of Triumph of the Will by the Nazi propagandist Leni Riefenstahl, are displayed for sale next to the tea-making facilities. A tape recording of radio reports from the Second World War plays on a loop.

Irving soon walks in, shutting the door behind him. Just 13 people have gathered, each newcomer having been personally vetted by the historian and repeatedly sworn to keep secret the location of the talk. There is one woman and one child, a boy aged about 11 brought along by his father. We take our seats at a table equipped with hotel notepaper, water, and bowls of Fox’s Glacier Mints.

Irving, 75, is justly paranoid about security. During a career spanning 50 years and more than 30 books, he has emerged from relative respectability to become a notorious revisionist historian, and a target for anti-fascist demonstrators. In 2000, he lost a £2m libel action against the US historian Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books. The judge ruled that Irving “is an active Holocaust denier; that he is anti-Semitic and racist”.

Five years later, Irving was sentenced to three years in an Austrian prison for “trivialising, grossly playing down and denying the Holocaust”. He was released after 13 months and banned from returning to the country. He has also been banned from Canada, Italy and Germany.

After a period of relative quiet, Irving has now returned to publicise his unfinished book about Heinrich Himmler, founder of the SS and architect of the Holocaust. A series of talks began on 18 August in Southampton. Stops since have included Bristol, Coventry, Manchester and Edinburgh. He is due to speak in Oxford tonight, and in London on 21 December.

Anyone can buy a ticket on the author’s website for £19. I had attempted to go to the Coventry lecture last week, that time asking a relative to buy my ticket. But Irving refused “him” entry and refunded the money, citing “General security concerns. Nothing personal.”

On Thursday, my friend received a call from Irving about his application for that night’s talk, and was quizzed about his interest (he claimed to be a curious history buff). Satisfied, Irving only then emailed the details of the location, repeatedly calling for secrecy.

As word of the lecture dates circled among Irving’s legion of detractors, many issued appeals for demonstrators to disrupt them. At the Bull, Irving talks about his attempts to evade them. “In York, a man who had paid in advance accidentally replied to an email from a different account that gave his name as ‘anti fascista’. We sent him to the Little John, which is a homosexual bar.”

The Little John, now known as the Blue Boar, was immediately besieged on Twitter before its bemused manager insisted it was not the location for the talk. “Its not not happening at the Blue Boar, I own it and would never allow biggoted racists to use the pub!” he tweeted.

A spokesman for Peels Hotel, which owns the Bull in Peterborough, said Irving had booked its room as John Cawdell (his middle names). He had not heard of Irving but said he would not have allowed the talk to go ahead had he known the facts.

Before he even gets to Himmler, Irving laments his treatment and standing alongside what he calls “conformist” historians, and the financial hardship imposed by numerous court cases. But he insists he is a crusader for truth, writing “what I call real history”.

The two-hour talk about Himmler, who he refers to as “Heiney”, unfolds without a break. Irving claims, among other things, that Himmler did not commit suicide but was murdered by his British captors. Later, while recounting Himmler’s youth, Irving rises to his feet and thrusts forth an imaginary sabre as he re-enacts a fight Himmler had won in his duelling fraternity at a Munich university.

Eventually, we come to the Holocaust. Since his conviction the historian has denied denying the Holocaust, conceding that millions of Jews did die in gas chambers. But in Peterborough he says: “If you read the memoirs of Churchill or Eisenhower or de Gaulle, they don’t mention it at all. It never happened as far as they were concerned.” In around 1970, he adds, the Jews were “advised by a PR firm to give it one name, stick to that name, and stick to those figures and gradually you’ll make billions out of this. That’s what happened.”

Irving claims that Hitler was unaware of the atrocities being committed in his name, that Himmler’s fearsome Waffen-SS Nazi fighting force “had a completely clean reputation” and that Auschwitz is “hugely inflated and hyped up. It’s like Disney. I don’t go there. It has no part in history.”

An impressive speaker, he produces carefully selected evidence to back up each claim – photos, intercepted telegrams, diaries and Himmler’s own notes. The assembled guests nod in silence. At 9pm, we are released to the bar downstairs for a break.

A man with a lion tattoo on his arm boasts about a copy of Mein Kampf he recently acquired (Irving himself collects Nazi memorabilia. In 2009 he was preparing to sell items on eBay including a fragment of bone purported to be Hitler’s).

A retired man in his 60s who has come from Lincoln says he is not worried about the secrecy surrounding the talk and praises Irving for speaking out. “The more you learn the more you realise we’re all subject to the skulduggery of the Zionist bankers trying to achieve one world order – and do anything to get it,” he says.

After the break, Irving talks about the publishing houses run by Jewish executives who turned their back on him (he self-publishes now). The Lincoln man offers: “They run the world, don’t they?” Irving, who strongly denies being anti-semitic, replies: “Well sometimes people stand up and fight back.”

He says Jews in America control all media, banks and that “they dare not appoint any leading person in the White House to ministerial positions involving money without him being a Jew. Look where that got them in Germany in 1933. And they will not learn the lesson, they all think it won’t happen again.

“Then they ask why they are so hated. I look in the mirror in the mornings and I say to myself – people don’t like me and I know why. I know what I could do immediately to be liked by the media and newspapers – completely reverse my opinion. But I don’t do it.”

In 2011, during one of Irving’s group tours of death camps in Poland, he delivered a similar rant. Will Storr, author of The Heretics: Adventures with the Enemies of Science, then asked him for an explanation for his views. According to Storr, Irving replied: “Probably something different in their brains.”

Irving says he hears people say Jews are hated because they crucified Jesus Christ. “I say if you walk into a pub in Wapping and ask people why they don’t like the Jews they don’t mention Jesus. They mention other reasons. They’re worried about their mortgages and the banks…that’s the reason why the Jews get hated.”

The next day I call Irving to ask him about his talk. He quickly claims he had clocked me as a journalist, but doesn’t say how. He says on average he refuses two people per lecture. He disputes the comment about “brains” (“I was talking about our brains, not the Jews’,” he claims) and says he based the “Wapping” line purely on a recent poll that suggested 85 per cent of Americans blamed Jews for the global economic crisis.

On Monday, Irving plans to fly to Poland for his latest guided tour of Nazi sites. On 10 September he plans to return to Germany for the first time in 20 years to speak in Berlin after his travel ban was lifted by a court last year. If not reverse his opinion, could he not express it less freely, and spend more time at his home in Windsor?

“I’m not the kind of guy who rolls over,” he says on the phone. “I’m English. I fight back. If the Jews had not started this campaign to destroy David Irving I wouldn’t have defended myself. I’ve defended myself like any other decent Englishman. And I know where the bodies are buried.”











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Old September 3rd, 2013 #2
SUNOFSPARTA
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Excellent,as usual.Thanks
 
Old September 7th, 2013 #3
Henry.
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But in Peterborough he says: “If you read the memoirs of Churchill or Eisenhower or de Gaulle, they don’t mention it at all. It never happened as far as they were concerned.”
This is typical of Irving; telling people what he thinks they want to hear because this claim goes down well on right-wing websites. I think Robert Faurisson is responsible for this nonsense that the alleged mass murder of Jews isn't mentioned in Churchill's The Second World War when it certainly is!

It may be true the specific terms 'Holocaust' and ''gas chamber'' aren't used by Churchill, but if Faurisson is using semantics to make a point which he can't do otherwise, then that's more than a little cheeky given how he's presented as an expert analyst of the written word.

Churchill wrote...
Quote:
From volume one, The Gathering Storm, p.15 (The Folio Society Edition)

In the second world war the bond between man and man was to perish. Crimes were committed by the Germans under the Hitlerite domination to which they allowed themselves to be subjected which find no equal in scale and wickedness with any that have darkened the human record. The wholesale massacre by systematized processes of 6 or 7 millions of men, women and children in the German execution camps exceeds in horror the rough-and-ready butcheries of Genghis Khan, and in scale reduces them to pigmy proportions. Deliberate extermination of whole populations was contemplated and pursued by both Germany and Russia in the Eastern war….
Again....
Quote:
From volume six, Triumph and Tragedy, p. 534, (The Folio Society Edition)

Prime Minister to Foreign Secretary, 11 July 44

There is no doubt that this [persecution of Jews in Hungary and their expulsion from enemy territory] is probably the greatest and most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world, and it has been done by scientific machinery by nominally civilised men in the name of a great State and one of the leading races of Europe. It is quite clear that all concerned in this crime who may fall into our hands, including the people who only obeyed orders by carrying out the butcheries, should be put to death after their association with the murders has been proved. I cannot therefore feel that this is the kind of ordinary case which is put through the Protecting Power, as, for instance, the lack of feeding or sanitary conditions in some particular prisoners’ camp. There should therefore, in my opinion, be no negotiations of any kind on this subject. Declarations should be made in public, so that everyone connected with it will be hunted down and put to death.”
Reproduced as published but the bolding is mine.
 
Old September 8th, 2013 #4
L. Edwards
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Default What about the quote from Profession Richard Lynn

Did you personally research this yourself? What about the quote by Richard Lynn? I took this quote off of VNN back in July 7, 2010

I assume you mean that Churchill was quoted as saying this in his book, but do you believe that 6 million Joos where actually exterminated by the Nazis?

Quote:
“I’ve checked out the six volumes of Churchill’s Second World War and the statement is quite correct – not a single mention of Nazi ‘gas chambers,’ a ‘genocide’ of the Jews, or of ’six million’ Jewish victims of the war.
Eisenhower’s Crusade in Europe is a book of 559 pages; Churchill’s Second World War totals 4,448 pages; and De Gaulle’s three-volume Mémoires de guerre is 2,054 pages.
In this mass of writing, which altogether totals 7,061 pages (not including the introductory parts), published from 1948 to 1959, one will find no mention either of Nazi ‘gas chambers,’ a ‘genocide’ of the Jews, or of ’six million’ Jewish victims of the war.”
— Richard Lynn, Professor Emeritus
University of Ulster, December 5, 2005



Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry. View Post
This is typical of Irving; telling people what he thinks they want to hear because this claim goes down well on right-wing websites. I think Robert Faurisson is responsible for this nonsense that the alleged mass murder of Jews isn't mentioned in Churchill's The Second World War when it certainly is!

It may be true the specific terms 'Holocaust' and ''gas chamber'' aren't used by Churchill, but if Faurisson is using semantics to make a point which he can't do otherwise, then that's more than a little cheeky given how he's presented as an expert analyst of the written word.

Churchill wrote...

Again....

Reproduced as published but the bolding is mine.
 
Old September 8th, 2013 #5
L. Edwards
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Default Professor Richard Lynn

I'm specifically referring to the 6 million figure and not the gas chambers because Lynn says it's not there. You say it is. Just trying to find out which is true or not?
 
Old September 9th, 2013 #6
Henry.
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Originally Posted by L. Edwards View Post
I'm specifically referring to the 6 million figure and not the gas chambers because Lynn says it's not there. You say it is. Just trying to find out which is true or not?
I've taken the quotes directly from my own copies. I could give you them from three other published editions including the first editions but in the case of two of those sets it would mean going into storage to open sealed boxes.

There are other entries: for instance one about the Greek Jews having to give up their wealth to save their lives and a similar one about Hungarian Jews who Churchill says had bought their lives with everything they had, and which is probably a reference to Rudolf Kastner's dealings with Dieter Wisliceny, Adolf Eichmann et al.

Quote:
“I’ve checked out the six volumes of Churchill’s Second World War and the statement is quite correct – not a single mention of Nazi ‘gas chambers,’ a ‘genocide’ of the Jews, or of ’six million’ Jewish victims of the war.
Eisenhower’s Crusade in Europe is a book of 559 pages; Churchill’s Second World War totals 4,448 pages; and De Gaulle’s three-volume Mémoires de guerre is 2,054 pages.
In this mass of writing, which altogether totals 7,061 pages (not including the introductory parts), published from 1948 to 1959, one will find no mention either of Nazi ‘gas chambers,’ a ‘genocide’ of the Jews, or of ’six million’ Jewish victims of the war.”
— Richard Lynn, Professor Emeritus
University of Ulster, December 5, 2005
Richard Lynn is a liar playing with semantics if that's his quote.
 
Old September 9th, 2013 #7
Henry.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L. Edwards View Post
I assume you mean that Churchill was quoted as saying this in his book, but do you believe that 6 million Joos where actually exterminated by the Nazis?
No I don't believe that 6 million Jews were exterminated but peddling lies about it will only come back to haunt those who rely on such foolishness.

Take Richard Lynn. If that's his quote then he'd be laughed out of any debate on the holocaust the moment Churchill's books were quoted/produced.

Completely wiped-out.

I've found online the two quotes I supplied and you can read the first one (Churchill's post-war opinion) directly from the book here The other one was copied into Churchill's book as being a record of this document from 1944....


Last edited by Henry.; September 9th, 2013 at 10:35 AM. Reason: link and document added
 
Old September 9th, 2013 #8
Hugh
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The wholesale massacre by systematized processes of 6 or 7 millions of men, women and children in the German execution camps
No mention of Jews being killed in this quote.

Quote:
There is no doubt that this [persecution of Jews in Hungary and their expulsion from enemy territory] is probably the greatest and most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world, and it has been done by scientific machinery by
No mention of Jews being killed in this quote.
In fact, the quote explicitly states that the Jews were persecuted and then expelled, and since expulsion necessitates one being alive in order to be expelled, Churchill is stating the Jews were expelled, and confirms that they were not killed.

Quote:
that the alleged mass murder of Jews isn't mentioned in Churchill's The Second World War when it certainly is!
Please quote where Churchill mentions the mass murder of Jews.

So far Henry has shown that even he cannot provide any evidence of Churchill mentioning the mass murder of Jews.

Thanks Henry for all your hard work, and for proving once and for all that Irving, Faurisson and Lynn are correct.
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Old September 9th, 2013 #9
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Linder is a man who gives consideration to words. Why don't we ask if he thinks that Churchill is referring to Jews.

Over to Alex Linder.....

Or perhaps Bev or Leonard Rouse would care to give these quotes two coats of looking over and say that when Churchill was talking about 'butcheries' and ''The wholesale massacre by systematized processes of 6 or 7 millions of men, women and children in the German execution camps'' not to mention (in direct relation to the word 'Jews') ''the greatest and most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world, and it has been done by scientific machinery by nominally civilised men in the name of a great State and one of the leading races of Europe''...that Churchill was not referring to Jews but some other group instead.

'6 or 7 million' gypsies, perhaps
 
Old September 9th, 2013 #10
James K Jones
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It could be Hottentot transvestites for all we know. No specific victims or methods are mentioned. We all know now that nowhere near 6,000,000 people (or Jews) were murdered by the magical and invisible gas chamber. Heck, the fluctuating Auschwitz tally reduces that number to 3.5 million alone.

As for the greatest crime in history, Churchill was well aware of the Jewish orchestrated artificial famine in Ukraine that claimed the lives of up to 10,000,000. Despite decades of Soviet coverups, their is still far more tangible evidence to document that atrocity than there ever has been to trump up the persecution and wholesale slaughter of our wandering friends with the funny noses.
 
Old September 9th, 2013 #11
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Originally Posted by James K Jones View Post
It could be Hottentot transvestites for all we know. No specific victims or methods are mentioned. We all know now that nowhere near 6,000,000 people (or Jews) were murdered by the magical and invisible gas chamber....
No. The issue here is not the Holocaust or the credibility of Churchill’s statements, it’s the oft made claim that not a word about ‘Jewish persecution, extermination, genocide, etc,’ is mentioned in Churchill’s six volumes.

Incidentally the word genocide wasn't coined till 1943/44. It appeared in Lemkin's book but didn't begin to enter the mainstream till November 1945 when the Jews at Nuremberg slipped it into Jackson's opening speech or some other similar document. So the term 'genocide' was used by nobody prior to 1946.

As for Churchill's memo to Eden, which is in his volumes and quoted above, perhaps I should give you some context.

On [Thurs] 6 July 1944, Churchill was too busy to meet with Chaim Weizmann and fellow Zionist and 2nd prime minister of Israel, Moshe Shertok, so Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden stood in for Churchill.

At this meeting Eden was given a dossier of alleged German atrocities against the Jews. Among the claims concerning the deportation of Hungarian Jews (see quote in post above) was that:
''...400,000 [Jews] had already been transported to 'Birkenau in Upper Silesia where there are four crematoriums with a capacity for gassing and burning 60,000 a day, and where, in the course of the last year, 1,500,000 Jews from all over Europe are reported to have been killed. In and around Budapest there are still over 300,000 Jews awaiting their doom....''
The claimed capacity for 'gassing and burning 60,000 a day' is not a typo or misquote and the fact it's so clearly absurd probably explains why the details of this meeting are hard if not impossible to find in mainstream history books.

Before leaving Eden they gave him a 2 page Aid-Memoir to supplement their 'evidence'. The quote above comes from the opening paragraph of that document and you will find a copy of it in Vol XXI Series A, The Letters and Papers of Chaim Weizmann, Appendix, p. 321. It's not available on the net and I could copy it to VNN but what's the fucking point?

Anyway, that was Thurs 6 July. Following this meeting Eden then passed the information over to Churchill for his attention and on the Tuesday (11 July) next, he responded with his memo to Eden and which is copied again, below.

That is the document and quote placed in it's proper context. And when Churchill was writing about ''deportation'', ''persecution'', ''scientific machinery'', ''butcheries'' and ''the greatest and most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world'' he wasn't writing for the general reader he was talking to Eden who was already cognizant of the context and information I've given here and therefore in no need of such fine detail having received it first hand from Weizmann and Shertok.

Churchill's The Second World War contains some commentary but is largely a collection of documents and diary entries published often without context and supporting information.

Churchill was talking directly to Eden (not his future readers) about the gassing and burning of Jews in Auschwitz Birkenau and those Jews who remained in Hungary waiting to be transported for the same purpose.

Whether any of what Eden and Churchill were told was true is beside the point. Churchill's book does record his reaction and response to the alleged murder of the Jews and if Richard Lynn says he can't find a word of it he's either an idiot or a liar.


 
Old September 25th, 2013 #12
John Liberty
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It is surely not surprising to find Churchill spouting out anti-German propaganda since that was his main job during the war and the stuff came right from his heeb script writers. As far as the main article, it looks like the same type of tripe WC was getting. The part about Irving trying to whitewash the SS is total bunk. I asked him myself about their role in the "pogroms", he said mass killing DID happen, but they were not authorized. He said Hitler even disciplined perpatrators of these killings. He went on to mention that many time local residents had taken matters in to their own hands in local districts after years of Bolshevik tyranny. When German units entered villages to liberate them, killings were aleady underway . He said that when unit commanders called back to request instructions on how to handle the uprisings many times they were told not to interfere with the locals. So, perhaps they may have guilty of not stopping the peasant gentiles from exacting some revenge from their overlords. The oppressors would again start their own "Operation Overlord" a few years later, holocausting the locals with their indiscriminate bombing campaigns.
 
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