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Old August 3rd, 2013 #1
Bardamu
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Default Neanderthals: Atala.fr: Fascinating Website

http://atala.fr/

This woman's website is probably the most interesting thing I've read in recent memory. Her subject is Neanderthal man and his relationship to ethnic European man. Her webpages are dark and therefore difficult to read. Finally I figured out to simply highlight passages, as though I were copying and pasting, and they then become bright enough to easily read. It takes a few pages to get the rhythm of her site, and adjust to her way of speaking English, but once you are rolling this is a fascinating read.

By the way, she is wife to and mother of the children of Varg Vilkernes.
 
Old August 5th, 2013 #2
Jean West
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Default Varg and Marie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardamu View Post
http://atala.fr/
This woman's website is probably the most interesting thing I've read in recent memory. Her subject is Neanderthal man and his relationship to ethnic European man. Her webpages are dark and therefore difficult to read. Finally I figured out to simply highlight passages, as though I were copying and pasting, and they then become bright enough to easily read. It takes a few pages to get the rhythm of her site, and adjust to her way of speaking English, but once you are rolling this is a fascinating read.
By the way, she is wife to and mother of the children of Varg Vilkernes.
I, too, found it fascinating. See my Varg and Marie post in the Neo-nazi black metal VV arrested thread.
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Old August 5th, 2013 #3
Bardamu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean West View Post
I, too, found it fascinating. See my Varg and Marie post in the Neo-nazi black metal VV arrested thread.
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Marie Cachet is brilliant, as her husband says. She begins with the observation that if contemporary humans share 95% of their DNA with chimpanzees then the 5% that we share with Neanderthals is practically the entirety of what separates us ethnic Europeans from apes. Whereas Blacks, the original homo sapiens, share nothing with Neanderthals. Then she goes on to hypothesize that we are what happened to the Neanderthals. We didn't kill them off. What happened was the more extreme Neanderthal phenotypes died at birth, along with their mothers, because the small hips inherited from breeding with homo sapiens wouldn't pass the large skull of Neanderthal man.

Last edited by Bardamu; August 5th, 2013 at 07:11 PM.
 
Old August 6th, 2013 #4
Jean West
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One of the things that Marie mentions on her web site is that she doesn't use credentialed resources. This is something that I relate to strongly; discerning the biases of the authors of studies is a problem. There's a lot of misinformation about Neanderthals, or maybe I should say confusion; scientists just haven't known what to make of them; were they humans or were they not? The latest information comes from cave findings. Here's a brief description of a particular bone finding.

Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology

A high-quality Neandertal genome sequence

The genome sequence was generated from a toe bone discovered in Denisova Cave in southern Siberia in 2010. The bone is described in Mednikova (Ethnology & Anthropology of Eurasia 2011. 39: 129-138).

DNA sequences were generated on the Illumina HiSeq platform and constitute an average 50-fold coverage of the genome. 99.9% of the 1.7GB of uniquely mappable DNA sequences in the human genome are covered at least ten times.

Contamination with modern human DNA, estimated from mitochondrial and nuclear DNA sequences, is around 1%.

The figure shows a tree relating this genome to the genomes of Neandertals from Croatia, from Germany and from the Caucasus as well as the Denisovan genome recovered from a finger bone excavated at Deniosva Cave. It shows that this individual is closely related to these other Neandertals. Thus, both Neandertals and Denisovans have inhabited this cave in southern Siberia, presumably at different times.
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Old August 6th, 2013 #5
Jean West
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The potential for conflict (shades of Kennewick Man?) here involves the Out of Africa vs. Multi-regional hypotheses (see bottom of page for definitions).

Blow to Neanderthal breeding theory
13 May, 2003



Early modern humans and Neanderthals probably did not interbreed, according to evidence collected by Italian scientists.

Neanderthal man Interbreeding debate continues

Researchers have long considered Neanderthals and the humans that lived in Europe 30,000 years ago as distinct species, even though they lived side by side. However, there is controversy over theories that Neanderthals made a contribution to the gene pool of people living today. This has been fuelled by a skeleton uncovered in Portugal that appears to show both Neanderthal and human features.

DNA taken

The latest research, from the University of Ferrara in Italy, compared genetic material from Neanderthals, Cro-Magnon humans and 21st-Century Europeans.

The DNA from the Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons was taken from their bones.

The genetic material was extracted from cell structures called mitochondria rather than the nucleus.

The scientists found that while, unsurprisingly, modern humans show clear genetic signs of their Cro-Magnon ancestry, no such link between Neanderthal DNA and modern European DNA could be established.

The results, they say, indicate that Neanderthals made little or no contribution to the genes of modern humans.

Out of Africa

The mitochondrial DNA of the two ancient species was very different, claims the study. "This discontinuity is difficult to reconcile with the hypothesis that both Neanderthals and early anatomically modern humans contributed to the current European gene pool."

The findings are said to support the theory that the "anatomically modern human" arose in Africa some 150,000 years ago and then dispersed across the globe, displacing the Neanderthals on the way.

It is a blow to the so-called multi-regional theory, in which some interbreeding between Neanderthal and early humans is said to have taken place.

The latest study is reported in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS).
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Out-of-Africa versus the multiregional hypothesis

Broadly speaking, there are two competing hypotheses on the origin of modern humans: the Out-of-Africa hypothesis and the multiregional hypothesis. Both agree that Homo erectus originated in Africa and expanded to Eurasia about one million years ago, but they differ in explaining the origin of modern humans (Homo sapiens sapiens). The first hypothesis proposes that a second migration out of Africa happened about 100,000 years ago, in which anatomically modern humans of African origin conquered the world by completely replacing archaic human populations (Homo sapiens; Model A). The multiregional hypothesis states that independent multiple origins (Model D) or shared multiregional evolution with continuous gene flow between continental populations (Model C) occurred in the million years since Homo erectus came out of Africa (the trellis theory). A compromised version of the Out-of-Africa hypothesis emphasizes the African origin of most human populations but allows for the possibility of minor local contributions (Model B).

2000 Nature Publishing Group Jin, L. & Su, B. Natives or immigrants: modern human origin in east Asia. Nature Reviews Genetics 1, 127.

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Old August 6th, 2013 #6
Bardamu
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I think it is accepted now that Europeans have roughly 5% Neanderthal genes. These companies that analyse DNA will tell you how much Neanderthal you have, I believe. The current line is that everyone but sub Saharan Africans (pure ones that is) have Neanderthal genes.
 
Old August 9th, 2013 #7
Jimmy Marr
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Base on what I read in this thread, I've started reading Marie's website.

It's very interesting. Thanks.

I also ordered a test kit from 23andme.
 
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