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Old February 19th, 2013 #1
Crystal Winterfrost
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Default Grammatical Inquiry

Hey guys, I’d like your help with something that I’ve been trying to clarify for days to some unbelievably stubborn punk, whose planet-sized ego is so massive – that it just won’t accept that I’m right, and its owner is wrong, despite me having proven him wrong with a plentiful amount of evidence that I’ve provided him; which he refuses to even acknowledge. I’m by no means an English expert, and English is a secondary language to me, so I still have much to learn; but I’m always trying to improve as much as possible, and I know for a fact that I’m right about this one, because I’ve done a lot of research on it.

So, the issue this guy and I have being arguing about for days is about the rules for periods and commas when using quotation marks. I’ve been arguing that in American English – the rule is that periods and commas always go inside the quotation marks, regardless of personal logic. But he argues otherwise. He believes (and without providing ANY evidence whatsoever) that the text inside quotation marks must exactly duplicate the portion of the text that’s being quoted. In the examples below - the correct examples are the way I’d quote using commas and periods, and the incorrect examples show the way he’d do it:

Quote:
The hydroxyl groups the team detected are evidence that the lunar interior contained significant water during the moon's early molten state, before the crust solidified, and may have played a key role in the development of lunar basalts.
Commas:
Correct: “The hydroxyl groups the team detected are evidence that the lunar interior contained significant water during the moon's early molten state,” (Additional text follows here…)

Incorrect: “The hydroxyl groups the team detected are evidence that the lunar interior contained significant water during the moon's early molten state”, (Additional text follows here…)

Periods:
Correct: “and may have played a key role in the development of lunar basalts.” (Additional text follows here…)

Incorrect: “and may have played a key role in the development of lunar basalts”. (Additional text follows here…)

There are multiple grammar-related websites out there that prove I'm right. Even the Modern Language Association (MLA) Handbook for Writers of Research Papers, which is widely used in the U.S., Canada, and other countries, for writing and documentation of research in English studies (including the English language, writing, and literature written in English), proves I'm right. Yet, this stubborn idiot insists that he's "right," and everyone and everything else is simply "wrong," and/or "retarded."

Yeah, I know this is probably nothing to make a big deal out of, but I’d like to get some input from you guys on this, and help me clarify it. I’m a bit of a “Grammar Nazi,” who likes to type with immaculate English as much as possible, so I would be pretty upset if I’ve actually been using quotation marks with commas and periods incorrectly during all this time, ever since I began to learn to write in English. I just want to know if I’m right or wrong about this.

P.S. WW14 (Justin), get your stubborn ass in this thread and prove me wrong if you can!
 
Old February 19th, 2013 #2
Olesia Rhoswen
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"Commas and periods are always placed inside of quotation marks." (< as demonstrated)
 
Old February 19th, 2013 #3
Rick Ronsavelle
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The grammar books are wrong.

What's being quoted should be to the left of the period.

It should be up to the writer.

Real differences, such as it's vs. its, do require hard and fast rules in order to communicate.

Do those claiming the quotation marks should be outside give a reason? Or is it just custom?

>>>Three thumbs up, one down

Last edited by Rick Ronsavelle; February 19th, 2013 at 12:53 PM.
 
Old February 19th, 2013 #4
Crystal Winterfrost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Ronsavelle View Post
Do those claiming the quotation marks should be outside give a reason? Or is it just custom?
Quote:
*There are peculiar typographical reasons why the period and comma go inside the quotation mark in the United States. The following explanation comes from the "Frequently Asked Questions" file of alt.english.usage: "In the days when printing used raised bits of metal, "." and "," were the most delicate, and were in danger of damage (the face of the piece of type might break off from the body, or be bent or dented from above) if they had a '"' on one side and a blank space on the other. Hence the convention arose of always using '."' and ',"' rather than '".' and '",', regardless of logic." This seems to be an argument to return to something more logical, but there is little impetus to do so within the United States.
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/gramm...n.htm#footnote
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Old February 19th, 2013 #5
Roy Wagahuski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olesia Rhoswen View Post
"Commas and periods are always placed inside of quotation marks." (< as demonstrated)
That's the form I was taught in public skoo, which was, notably, also during the final years that the standard curricula included the teaching of phonics.

I thought (correct) English grammar rules were universal. "No whey dood," shout the illiterati.

Enter the valdezian logic of extreme linguistic arbitrariness that deems wholly legitimate every possible corruption of the written and spoken word.
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Old February 19th, 2013 #6
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At least I've got one person agreeing with me, even though I don't know how reliable he is.
 
Old February 19th, 2013 #7
Justin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Ronsavelle View Post
The grammar books are wrong.

What's being quoted should be to the left of the period.

It should be up to the writer.

Real differences, such as it's vs. its, do require hard and fast rules in order to communicate.

Do those claiming the quotation marks should be outside give a reason? Or is it just custom?
She's incapable of understanding the point of quotation marks, which is to repeat EXACTLY what someone said. If you put punctuation inside them that the original speaker (typist, whatever) never used, it's a misquote. Misquotes USED to be labeled as libel, mind you.

The punctuation should only ever go inside the quotation marks if the person quoted used them at the same place.
 
Old February 19th, 2013 #8
Alex Linder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal Winterfrost View Post
Hey guys, I’d like your help with something that I’ve been trying to clarify for days to some unbelievably stubborn punk, whose planet-sized ego is so massive – that it just won’t accept that I’m right, and its owner is wrong, despite me having proven him wrong with a plentiful amount of evidence that I’ve provided him; which he refuses to even acknowledge. I’m by no means an English expert, and English is a secondary language to me, so I still have much to learn; but I’m always trying to improve as much as possible, and I know for a fact that I’m right about this one, because I’ve done a lot of research on it.

So, the issue this guy and I have being arguing about for days is about the rules for periods and commas when using quotation marks. I’ve been arguing that in American English – the rule is that periods and commas always go inside the quotation marks, regardless of personal logic. But he argues otherwise. He believes (and without providing ANY evidence whatsoever) that the text inside quotation marks must exactly duplicate the portion of the text that’s being quoted. In the examples below - the correct examples are the way I’d quote using commas and periods, and the incorrect examples show the way he’d do it:



Commas:
Correct: “The hydroxyl groups the team detected are evidence that the lunar interior contained significant water during the moon's early molten state,” (Additional text follows here…)

Incorrect: “The hydroxyl groups the team detected are evidence that the lunar interior contained significant water during the moon's early molten state”, (Additional text follows here…)

Periods:
Correct: “and may have played a key role in the development of lunar basalts.” (Additional text follows here…)

Incorrect: “and may have played a key role in the development of lunar basalts”. (Additional text follows here…)

There are multiple grammar-related websites out there that prove I'm right. Even the Modern Language Association (MLA) Handbook for Writers of Research Papers, which is widely used in the U.S., Canada, and other countries, for writing and documentation of research in English studies (including the English language, writing, and literature written in English), proves I'm right. Yet, this stubborn idiot insists that he's "right," and everyone and everything else is simply "wrong," and/or "retarded."

Yeah, I know this is probably nothing to make a big deal out of, but I’d like to get some input from you guys on this, and help me clarify it. I’m a bit of a “Grammar Nazi,” who likes to type with immaculate English as much as possible, so I would be pretty upset if I’ve actually been using quotation marks with commas and periods incorrectly during all this time, ever since I began to learn to write in English. I just want to know if I’m right or wrong about this.

P.S. WW14 (Justin), get your stubborn ass in this thread and prove me wrong if you can!
You're right. The other way, w the quote marks inside is the British way, which is correct in the UK and other backward but still English-speaking parts of the world. We're in America, we're Americans, we do it our way.
 
Old February 19th, 2013 #9
Marcus
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In a colloquial setting: inside.
In a more formal usage (such as paraphrasing): outside.
 
Old February 19th, 2013 #10
Alex Linder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
She's incapable of understanding the point of quotation marks, which is to repeat EXACTLY what someone said. If you put punctuation inside them that the original speaker (typist, whatever) never used, it's a misquote. Misquotes USED to be labeled as libel, mind you.

The punctuation should only ever go inside the quotation marks if the person quoted used them at the same place.
God. We need a facepalm smilie badly.
 
Old February 19th, 2013 #11
Justin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Linder View Post
God. We need a facepalm smilie badly.
I pointed out the same thing about Brits doing it the correct way to her in PM before she ever made the thread, sorry. Not my fault the Brits got one thing right with language.
 
Old February 19th, 2013 #12
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I was always taught that if the text you are quoting ends with a punctuation mark, it should go inside the quotation marks. If it's your own punctuation mark, it goes outside. That was in an English school, though.
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Old February 19th, 2013 #13
George Witzgall
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I agree, the Brits got it right here. When I remember, I do it the British way.

BTW this is pretty much the only rule of grammar I deliberately flout.
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Old February 19th, 2013 #14
Justin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bev View Post
I was always taught that if the text you are quoting ends with a punctuation mark, it should go inside the quotation marks. If it's your own punctuation mark, it goes outside. That was in an English school, though.
That would be the only way it would make sense TO do it, because as I pointed out, putting new punctuation in a quote is a misquote.

I'm half tempted to change my stance on it though just because Witzgall is agreeing.
 
Old February 19th, 2013 #15
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Also - inb4 Rick Ronsavelle:

Title should be "Grammatical Enquiry", surely?
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Old February 19th, 2013 #16
Crystal Winterfrost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
I pointed out the same thing about Brits doing it the correct way to her in PM before she ever made the thread, sorry. Not my fault the Brits got one thing right with language.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
That would be the only way it would make sense TO do it, because as I pointed out, putting new punctuation in a quote is a misquote.

I'm half tempted to change my stance on it though just because Witzgall is agreeing.
Like I told you in my last PSN message - don't use the "Brits do it, so I'm right" crap after we've been arguing about this for like 3 days straight, and you swore that Americans too write the way you write. You hadn't mentioned Brits at all before. It wasn’t until last night, after I forced you to try to find evidence to back up your side that you got on your browser to look for proof, and casually found out that Brits place their periods and commas like you do when used with quotation marks. (btw, that link you sent me didn't even work)

If you were born in the U.S., raised in the U.S., educated in the U.S., have been living in the U.S. your entire life, never have traveled outside the U.S., and speak and write in American English - you have no excuse to rely on British English just to favor one single argument of yours. It seems to me that the only reason why you can’t accept that in America English is written as I described in my first post, is because your goddamned stupid ego can’t ever accept that you made a mistake, and that I’ve been right all along. So, if you're going use British English exclusively for commas and periods with quotation marks, then you need to start adopting everything about British English, and integrate all their words, spelling, and dialects into your English too. (e.g. colour, flavour, harbour, honour, humour, labour, neighbour, rumour) Otherwise, stick to American, and accept American rules.

I find it funny and sad how you criticize the Brits on so many things, but then use them as a life jacket whenever it’s convenient for you. I’ve already provided you with a ton of proof that crushes your argument, and pretty much everything I’ve researched related to American grammar agrees with me, yet you insist on denying the facts, because you’re the guy who’s “always right about everything.” Oh wait, I’m sorry. I believe you said “not always, just 99.9% of the time.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bev View Post
Title should be "Grammatical Enquiry", surely?
Why should it?
Quote:
In practice, enquire and enquiry are more common in British English, and inquire and inquiry are more common in US English, for both informal questions and formal investigations. However, the Guardian (a British newspaper) tells writers to “use inquiry” and the Oxford English Dictionary seems to recognise inquire as the more dominant form, deeming enquiry:


”An alternative form of INQUIRE. The mod. Dicts. give inquire as the standard form, but enquire is still very frequently used, esp. in the sense ‘to ask a question’.”
http://www.dailywritingtips.com/inquire-vs-enquire/
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Old February 19th, 2013 #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal Winterfrost View Post
a) because I'm English and was taught English in the land that invented it.

b)
Quote:
The traditional distinction between enquire and inquire is that enquire is used for general senses of ‘ask’ while inquire is reserved for uses meaning ‘make a formal investigation’. In practice, however, there little discernible distinction in the way the two words are used today in British English, although inquiry is commoner than enquiry in the sense ‘a formal investigation’. In all senses inquire and inquiry are the more usual forms in US English, whereas enquire and enquiry are chiefly restricted to British English.
This was a general enquiry, wasn't it, not a formal inquiry requiring an investigation?

http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...nglish/enquire

I trust the Oxford Dictionary over someone that references the Grauniad as a paragon of good usage!

As for "there little discernible distinction in the way the two words are used today in British English" - well, that leads us down the road to txt speek and all sorts of invented words.
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Old February 19th, 2013 #18
Crystal Winterfrost
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@Bev:

Sorry; not going to change the title just for you, because there's nothing wrong with the title to begin with, and also - I did fully research the information and facts regarding my topic. Besides, I live in the U.S., and I've been learning American English for the last 10 years, and since I'm the one who started this thread - I reserve the right to name the title as I see fit, which is the American way.
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Old February 19th, 2013 #19
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American English isn't really a language. It's more of a ... dialect. Or a creole, even.

Honestly, though, I don't care. The thing that bothers me is when someone starts mixing features of both 'types' of English. Like Aussies using American spelling; that pisses me off.
 
Old February 19th, 2013 #20
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I say, the punctuation goes inside the quotation marks or the bracket:

"Because it's a lot neater this way." And a lot easier to edit, too! (See what I mean?)

But that's my personal preference. I've tried both ways of doing it, and I think this is the better one.

Of course, there are exceptions, such as when someone (an idiot), who doesn't know any better, tells me that I'm wrong.

Or when you find a possum (trichosurus vulpecula), an unwelcome visitor to your home, making a mess while trying to fish desirable morsels from the rubbish bin.

Last edited by M.N. Dalvez; February 19th, 2013 at 11:45 AM.
 
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