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Old May 27th, 2008 #1
Greg Gerdes
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Greg Gerdes
Default Archeological Investigations of Treblinka

Hello,

I was told that, if you wanted a real unfettered debate about the holocaust, that VNN was the place to have it. I have been "debating," i.e. - totally destroying a certain Roberto Muehlenkamp , aka - Roberta, on the topix history forum http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T1V7A87T8PL8H7P8C but due to Roberta's censoring of my posts (she flagged 2 of them as "abusive" and they were deleted by the administrator), I needed to find another place to further destroy the little purse toting Portuguese puke. I might further add that Roberta publicly challenged me to a debate to take place at a cesspool called RODOH, which I did in fact accept - http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/6081 - but I was promptly banned by Roberta's boyfriend, the moderator nickterry. I should add also that both Roberta and little nicky are members of some freak show called - holocaust controversies, where this Roberta freak originally challenged me to debate the holocaust myth.

So, that's my introduction. To further clarify what it is exactly that I have been tearing Roberta to shreds about, here is the last recap from the topix site:

Before I go, let's do a simplified recap, something we can take to start over on the new site that Roberta can't censor:

Her arguments are based on Grossmans alleged investigation:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?topic=4194&forum=2

And the alleged Polish / jews investigation:

http://vho.org/GB/Books/t/4.html

This aerial photo of Treblinka:

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...r1944_edit.jpg

(Remember her words:"I think that 1, 2 and 3 are in all probability pits for corpses which were used during the first phase of Treblinka and 4 is the "Lazarett")

This article "proving" that there is "a huge concrete plate" that covers the entire "area of 20,000 square meters." :

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/92506/t/Gold...

(Remember her words: No, Gerdes, I cannot show you a photo of the concrete plate underneath the memorial stones. I’ll try to find one (though the plate should be hard to see if there’s grass or so above it)

And these photos:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/photos.html

This drawing:

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...neGrinders.jpg

And the following photos with captions:

Jews loading bodies onto a wagon, apparently in the Treblinka camp.

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5811_1_web.jpg

Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp.

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5807_1_web.jpg

Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp.

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg

Human skeletal remains in the Treblinka camp.

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5810_1_web.jpg

Heaps of ashes on the grounds of the Treblinka camp.

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5810_1_web.jpg

One of the enormous pits in the Treblinka camp into which the victims' corpses (and later, ashes) were thrown.

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg

A heap of ashes in the Treblinka camp.

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5814_1_web.jpg

There was much more to the "debate" than this of course. There are 10 pages of this lying wench's keyboard diarrhea that I had the displeasure of having to sift through, but that is pretty much what she has presented as her "proof" to date.

She has shown herself to be the utmost coward, so we shall see if she accepts the invitation to debate this issue on a real uncensored forum.

Well Roberta, are you in?
 
Old May 29th, 2008 #2
Greg Gerdes
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Greg Gerdes
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Hello again,

Well, the only thing we're waiting for now is to see if Roberta Dullenkamp has the courage to defend her incredible tall tale on a real, unfettered scientific forum.

Here is my last post to her:

http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...T8PL8H7P8C/p16


Now Roberta, for the second time I have been accused of censoring on this forum (see your Berlinbuttbuddy’s post # 265).

So to assure that that doesn’t happen again, we are moving your asswhooping to a forum where such nonsense can no longer occur. Even if you insist on posting here, I will only answer you on the new forum here:

http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php...

And please Roberta, notice the title of the forum: Archaeology and Anthropology.

Do you know what that means Roberta? It means we are leaving your Alice in Wonderland fantasy world of magic glasses, seer stones and magic holocaust decoder rings and entering the world of science.

Are you willing to hold your fantasy up to the scientific method Roberta? If so, I’ll talk to you soon in the new science forum Roberta. That is unless you’re too much of a coward to debate on a real, unfettered scientific forum.

Remember the subjects we’re currently debating.

The photos of the excavators / proving the existence of a single body, etc.

Your so-called “proof” of “huge mass graves” in the receiving area.

The list of “eyewitnesses” who say burnings took place at Treblinka before Himmler’s order.

I will have an updated recap done shortly.

Are you in Roberta?
 
Old June 1st, 2008 #3
Greg Gerdes
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Greg Gerdes
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Well, my challenge to publicly debate Roberto Muellenkamp on an archaeology forum seems to have failed completely due to his cowardice and utter fear of holding his incredible tall tales up to the scientific method. Please notice that none of his fellow funnyboy freaks over at holocaust controversies has the courage to defend their delusions here either. Typical.

Oh well. What I'll do is just keep posting all my updates of the "debate" on this forum, so I can keep a record of and show everyone what a total fraud Roberta is and just what a complete lack of any tangible physical evidence there is for the Treblinka holohoax.

BTW, this is what Roberta had to say when I challenged her to debate on VNN forum:

"VNN consists of Nazi fucks like yourself, Gerdes. I see you don’t feel comfortable debating out in the open and need the company of your buddies to give you moral support... Historiography is a science, if you ask me. Historiography’s approach to evidence is a scientific approach, which consists in working towards a conclusion by looking at all the evidence available and seeing how it fits together. What you call "science", on the other hand, has nothing whatsoever to do with science. It consists in distortion, misrepresentation and attempts to reduce the record of evidence to the category that you figure is hardest for your opponent to obtain – i.e. physical evidence – in order to push through conclusions pre-ordained by your ideological articles of faith."

You can just sense her utter fear of debating the Treblinka holohoax on a forum devoted to archeology and the scientific method, can't you?

I'll keep you all informed.
 
Old June 2nd, 2008 #4
Greg Gerdes
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Well, it looks like Roberta Muehlenkamp has rested her case. Here is all the "physical evidence" that she has entered to date, and some of my commentary.

Please note that this freak pretends to be one of "the worlds foremost experts" on Treblinka, and this is the best she can do when challenged to present the physical evidence of her claim that the Treblinka holocaust really did happen. I will add a more consice recap shortly, but the following will provide the information needed to see in what context the filthy lying bitch presented her "evidence."

#22:

Q - Can you provide photographic proof of this alleged "area of 20,000 square meters covered by human remains and human remains to a depth of 7.5 meters?"

A - “There are photographs of the area, some of which you can see under:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html

#40:

Roberta:

“The grave digging is well-documented in Polish sources. To what extent it obliterated the Treblinka mass graves we don’t know.”

Q - If it was so well documented, then would you please show us the photos of this alleged documentation?

A - “look at some photographs related to the "Treblinka Gold Rush" that are included in a Polish newspaper article about this phenomenon:

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/925...ml#reply-92506

#45:

Roberta:

“Not that it would matter a damn thing if I could not, but a photograph available under:

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg

is captioned as showing "One of the enormous pits in the Treblinka camp into which the victims' corpses (and later, ashes) were thrown."

#115:

Roberta:

“As to what I called "plugs" in the calculations I once made, here’s a picture of what I meant by that. It is a drawing by David Olére, not from Treblinka but from Auschwitz-Birkenau, but one can assume that this was the bone-crushing method also applied at Treblinka:

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...neGrinders.jpg

#152:

Roberta:

“Roberto never claimed that nobody has been able to locate "so much as a single tooth" at Treblinka. On the contrary, I have referred to Vassili Grossman’s mention of having seen teeth in the soil of Treblinka when he visited the place. And I have referred to a Polish newspaper article translated under:

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/925...ml#reply-92506

which mentions teeth found by robbery diggers.” (Please note that that “evidence” has been presented to “prove” both the “grave diggers obliterated the traces of the “huge mass graves” and that teeth have been found at Treblinka.)

#156:

Roberta:

“In the south-western part of the camp, roughly corresponding to the area of the "receiving camp" (the Treblinka extermination camp consisted of 3 areas: the "the living camp" in the northwest, the "receiving camp" in the southwest and the "death camp" in the south and south-east, the latter being the sector where the gas chambers, mass graves and incineration grids were located), there are four shapes of ground scarring I circled and marked as 1, 2, 3 and 4 on the September 1944 photograph:

(Unmarked):

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap8.jpg

(Marked):

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...r1944_edit.jpg

Roberta:

"I think that 1, 2 and 3 are in all probability pits for corpses which were used during the first phase of Treblinka and 4 is the "Lazarett,”

#170:

Q - Can you show us a single ground or aerial photograph in which the "huge mass graves" and the "huge furnace pits" can be seen?

Roberta:

A – “Of the furnace pits none that I know, which is not surprising as photographing in the camp was forbidden. Deputy commander Kurt Franz photographed nevertheless and kept an album, from which he had torn out some pictures by the time he was arrested in 1959; these may have shown interesting things like furnace pits, incineration grids and so. But he kept the photos of the excavators, which are shown under:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/excavators2.html

There is also one photo, kept in the German Federal Archives under nº No. 183-F0918-0201-011 and online under:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/photos.html

that shows one corner of one of the mass graves.”

Q - Can you provide a single photo that proves the existence of these alleged huge graves and pits?

Roberta:

A – “No. But I can provide eyewitness testimonies,”
 
Old June 3rd, 2008 #5
Greg Gerdes
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Here is the rest of the "physical evidence" that Roberta Muehlenkamp presented before resting her case.

#176:

Alleged photographs from Treblinka:

1 - Jews loading bodies onto a wagon, apparently in the Treblinka camp:

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5811_1_web.jpg

2 - Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp:

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg

3 - Heaps of ashes on the grounds of the Treblinka camp:

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5809_1_web.jpg

#179:

Q – Can you show us where just one tooth out of your alleged 24 to 96 million teeth has been located in your "area of 20,000 square meters covered by human remains and human remains to a depth of 7.5 meters?"

Roberta:

A – “Vassili Grossman, as quoted under:

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/955...ml#reply-95592

"The earth is throwing out crushed bones, teeth, clothes, papers."

From the Polish newspaper article translated under:

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/925...ml#reply-92506

“Grave robbers from Wólka Okrąglik and neighboring villages pose for a photo together with militiamen who caught them red-handed. In the peasant's pockets there were golden rings and teeth of Jews… "With the grave robbers we found golden rings, crowns and porcelain teeth with gold and silver inlays."

* Please note: See more on Grossman here:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?topic=4194&forum=2

#252 & 253:

Roberta:

“Eyewitnesses mentioning pits in the reception area – let’s start with Abraham Krzepicki and Jankiel Wiernik:

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/384...ml#reply-38414

#324:

Q - And where are the “gas chambers?”

Roberta:

A – “While there is no reason for excavator-freak Franz to have photographed the gas chambers, he seems to have caught the gas chamber building on one of his photographs. This photograph is shown by Alex Bay under:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...Figure36.shtml

#392:

An open mass grave in Treblinka in 1943 (34 on the map).

In 1943 all the mass graves were reopened and the bodies cremated on huge roasts.

Arad, Yitzhak; The Pictorial History of the Holocaust, p. 299

http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/i...mass_grave.htm

Roberta’s analysis:

“Shapes pointed out look human. They are neither wooden planks not tarpaulin sheets.”

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...grave_edit.jpg


And that's it folks, that was all the "physical evidence" that Roberta Muehlenkamp was able to present which she claims "proves" the Treblinka holohoax. I will add a more concise recap of her "evidence" real soon.
 
Old June 4th, 2008 #6
Greg Gerdes
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In summarizing my “debate” with Roberto Muehlenkamp, we can start with my foundational question to her:

“Roberta, can you locate the alleged “huge mass graves” of Treblinka on this Sept., 1944 aerial map of Treblinka?”

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap8.jpg

After initially claiming, repeatedly, that it would be impossible to do so, Roberta then said that, yes, after further analysis, she could indeed locate some of the alleged “huge mass graves” of Treblinka on said aerial photo and presented the following analysis as “proof:”

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...r1944_edit.jpg

(Remember her own words: “I think that 1, 2 and 3 are in all probability pits for corpses which were used during the first phase of Treblinka and 4 is the "Lazarett.")

Please note: She also presented the following “eyewitness testimony” of Abraham Krzepicki and Jankiel Wiernik which she claims “proves” the accuracy of her analysis:

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/384...ml#reply-38414

Then, when asked if she could provide any physical evidence of the alleged Treblinka holocaust, she presented as “proof” these photos, allegedly taken by the 1946 Polish / jewish / communist investigation team, which she claims discovered "an area of 20,000 square meters covered by human remains and human remains to a depth of 7.5 meters," at the site:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/photos.html

Please note: You can read about the Treblinka investigation mentioned above here:

http://vho.org/GB/Books/t/4.html

She also emphatically claimed that the following photographs were also taken at Treblinka and even provided us with their captions:

1 - Jews loading bodies onto a wagon, apparently in the Treblinka camp:

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5811_1_web.jpg

2 - Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp:

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg

3 - One of the enormous pits in the Treblinka camp into which the victims' corpses (and later, ashes) were thrown.

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg

She also claimed that the existence of at least one “huge mass grave” of Treblinka has been proven and presented the following photograph as her “proof:”

An open mass grave in Treblinka in 1943. Arad, Yitzhak; The Pictorial History of the Holocaust, p. 299

http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/i...mass_grave.htm

And she again presented her analysis of this alleged “physical evidence:”

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...grave_edit.jpg

(Remember her own words: “Shapes pointed out look human. They are neither wooden planks not tarpaulin sheets.”)

She then presented the following photograph of the alleged “homicidal gas chambers” of Treblinka as her “proof” of its existence:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...Figure36.shtml

Then, when asked if the alleged “huge mass graves” of Treblinka could be located today, she said that they could not because “grave robbers” had obliterated all traces of them in their search for “jewish gold” and presented the following “evidence” for this alleged “Treblinka Gold Rush” and resultant obliteration of said graves:

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/925...ml#reply-92506

Then, when asked if she could prove the existence of so much as a single tooth found at Treblinka, she claimed that the above link also “proves” that teeth were found at the site and offered the following quote from said link as “proof” of this:

“In the peasant's pockets there were golden rings and teeth of Jews… With the grave robbers we found golden rings, crowns and porcelain teeth with gold and silver inlays."

She then went on to add that the following quote from Vassili Grossman’s report of his alleged investigation offers additional “proof” that teeth were reportedly seen at Treblinka:

"The earth is throwing out crushed bones, teeth, clothes, papers."

Please note: You can read about Grossman’s alleged investigation here:

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/955...ml#reply-95592

And here:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?topic=4194&forum=2

Please note: Her claim that teeth were found at Treblinka totally contradicts her earlier claim that the Germans had obliterated the tens of millions of teeth by crushing them into “tooth meal” with “plugs,” which she claimed was done / looked like this:

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...neGrinders.jpg

However, when asked why no one has ever been able to locate even one of the alleged “huge mass graves” of Treblinka or even an iota of the remains of the alleged millions of pounds of crushed bone, tens of millions of teeth, tens of thousands of bullets and shell casings or so much as a single corpse which she claims were left in the bottom of the “huge mass graves” in a “wax-fat transformation,” she claims the reason is because there is a “20,000 square meter concrete plate” which covers the entire alleged “huge mass graves” area and all the alleged physical evidence and presented this photo as “proof:”

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5703_1_web.jpg

And that’s it folks! Seriously, that’s all the alleged physical evidence that the freaky little bitch was able to present as "proof" of the Treblinka holocaust! And please do take the time to read the alleged “eyewitness and documentary evidence” that I included at Roberta’s insistence. Seriously, she actually claims that that nonsense actually substantiates the “physical evidence” she presented!

I will add one more very concise recap of all the "physical evidence" that she presented in my next post.
 
Old June 5th, 2008 #7
Greg Gerdes
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So here it is again folks, a more concise recap of all the “physical evidence” for the alleged Treblinka holocaust that could be produce by the creepy little self proclaimed “authority” on Treblinka - Roberto Muehlenkamp:


#1 – Roberta’s analysis of the Sept. 1944 aerial photo of Treblinka:

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...r1944_edit.jpg

(Again, in her own words: “I think that 1, 2 and 3 are in all probability pits for corpses which were used during the first phase of Treblinka and 4 is the "Lazarett.")

#2 – This montage of photos:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html

#3 – This montage of photos:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/photos.html

And these individual photos, which she also provided captions for:

#4 – “Jews loading bodies onto a wagon, “apparently” in the Treblinka camp:”

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5811_1_web.jpg

#5 – “Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp:”

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg

#6 - "One of the enormous pits in the Treblinka camp into which the victims' corpses (and later, ashes) were thrown."

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg

#7 – “Grave robbers from Wólka Okr¹glik and neighboring villages pose for a photo together with militiamen who caught them red-handed. In the peasant's pockets there were golden rings and teeth of Jews. At their feet lie skulls and limb bones of those gassed.”

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_2.jpg


And that is it folks. That is the best the bitch could do. I will finish the final summation of this “debate” with Roberta’s own words:

"Actually I have entered all the physical evidence to the Treblinka mass killings that I’m aware of… as to my having not been able to "prove the existence" of a single mass grave… Roberta doesn’t have to prove the existence of one specific single anything… proof of mass murder at Treblinka can be provided without identifying any specific mass grave… I have, through the eyewitness, documentary and physical evidence I have introduced, provided conclusive proof of the mass murder at Treblinka, and hence of whatever amounts of crushed bones, bullets, shell casings or teeth this entails… you can prove the whole independently of whether you can identify a specific part or aspect of the whole, and proof of that specific part or aspect, even if that specific part or aspect is not identified in all its details, logically follows from proof of the whole... reasonable assumptions and conclusions are part of the art and science of historiography… an art that includes reasonably accounting for subjective individual perceptions… because there are certain differences between eyewitnesses in perception and recollection of certain details or features of an event or phenomenon… these photos need not show any dead bodies in order to have a certain relevance as evidence… I can actually claim to have proved, by providing evidence specifically describing it."

Please note that all the "evedence" presented by this Roberta freak to date has allegedly been that which "proves" the Treblinka holohoax. What I will do next is break down her "evidence" further into the following categories:

1 - Teeth

2 - Bullets & shell casings

3 - Cremated / crushed bones

4 - Unburned corpses in a "wax-fat transformation"

5 - "Huge mass graves"
 
Old June 9th, 2008 #8
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus
RE: Roberto Muehlenkamp
Quote:
If that's what the candid audience thinks, this would say a lot about the candid audience's capacity for wishful thinking and their distance from reality. I hope for the candid audience that you're wrong about them.
I've been here for quite some time and you haven't, and it's obvious to me that you're struggling with what's really going on here.
It’s obvious to me that you’re a wishful thinker divorced from reality, but you should give our readers the benefit of doubt and assume that maybe they are not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus
Quote:
Ah, and what you just told me means that if you didn't think I'm making your ideology's case, you would ban me, right?
Again you insult the intelligence of our readers.
Actually that’s what you have been doing by claiming that our "White" audience would see me as making "their" case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus
Take a look at the ratio of posters to readers and then try to scrape up a speck of critical rational and a small light might go on. However, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.
I doubt you would know what critical rationale is even if stepped on your foot, and I don’t quite understand what the number of readers has got to do with your statement implying that you would ban me if you didn’t think I’m making your ideology’s case. To be sure, 295 views to 25 replies on this thread as of 09.06.2008 14:35 hours GMT doesn’t look like your "White" folks are very interested in this discussion, but what are you trying to tell me? That you don’t ban me because the number of "White" minds I might get to think a little about their articles of faith is a small one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus
Quote:
And I thought this was an uncensored forum ...
This is the the closest to the uncluttered truth that you've come thus far.
So it seems, judging by your statement that points to this being the exact opposite of an uncensored forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by You
I'm not banning you because you're actually proving our case to our candid audience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus
Quote:
Your hostility is taken note of. Isn't a moderator supposed to refrain from such hostility?
This is VNN dickhead, get used to it.
I have no problem with your showing that this is a place run and moderated by hysterical fanatics, on the contrary. It is you who should see a problem with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus
Quote:
Anyway, thanks for showing that VNN and moderation on VNN are just what I thought them to be. This confirms Greg Gerdes' cowardice in seeking refuge here.
Gee willikers! Who wouda thunk! A biased moderator! God Damn you're a sharp one!
There’s nothing wrong with a moderator showing what side he’s on when participating in the debate. But when acting as a moderator you should not reveal any bias, otherwise you make it even more obvious that the "uncensored forum" thing is a joke. A forum where the moderator, acting in this capacity, tries to harass posters whose arguments he doesn’t like, is not exactly an uncensored one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus
Why not tell me about your mods you fucking hypocritical piece of shit?
You tell me about them, my friend. You show me where on the RODOH forum ( http://rodohforum.yuku.com/brodohforum ) a newcomer from any side is received by a moderator the way you received me after I thanked you for what I considered proper moderation practice. Exact quote with link to the respective post, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus
It appears that you're too dim witted to see the difference between and honest debate forum and gagging on horseshit.
Actually I can tell the difference very well. Gagging on horseshit seems to be what takes place here when there’s no opposition, judging by what my friend Gerdes has produced. And siding with and protecting such gagging seems to be what moderation on this forum is about, judging by your intervention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus
At least you know where I'm coming from, unlike your intellectual hovel where truth is flushed the moment it appears.
I don’t know what you’re talking about, my friend. Any examples of "intellectual hovel" and "truth-flushing" from the RODOH forum that you can quote (with link to the respective post, of course)?

Ah, and what is it that you call "truth"? Is it facts supported by evidence, or is it whatever unsupported nonsense you’d like to believe in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus
Quote:
Muehlenkamp is a German name from the region of Westphalia. Roberto is my Christian name because I was born and baptized in Colombia, South America. They speak Spanish there.
They speak Spanish in Columbia? Do Tell!
I don’t think they speak Spanish in Columbia, but in Colombia they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus
Quote:
What is your name, by the way?
Even if Roberto Muehlenkamp were your real name, and I don't believe that it is,
Want a scan from my German passport?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus
I still wouldn't tell you mine because quite frankly I think that you're an asshole, not worthy of another post from me.
The feeling is mutual, and mine is even justified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus
I'd perfer to just sit back and watch Greg Gerdes carve you up some more.
Actually Gerdes is making a bloody fool of himself and showing again and again what a liar and charlatan he is, but if you think that’s carving me up, I’ll let you be happy with your delusion.
 
Old June 5th, 2008 #9
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
>Hello,

>I was told that, if you wanted a real unfettered debate about the holocaust, that >VNN was the >place to have it.

Yeah, this is an uncensored forum “for White”. If that doesn’t smack of censorship, I don’t know what does.

>I have been "debating," i.e. - totally destroying a >certain Roberto Muehlenkamp >, aka - >Roberta, on the topix history forum >http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T1V7A87T8PL8H7P8C
Wishful thinking is obviously the only thinking that Greg Gerdes is capable of. Actually, as readers following the Topix discussion have realized – and two have expressed – Gerdes has been shown up over and over again as a pathological liar and laughable fraud, who can do little other than misrepresent his opponent’s arguments into the straw-men he would like to be arguing against and endlessly regurgitating “show me this and that” – demands, the relevance of which he cannot explain.

The eyewitness evidence I provided he feebly tried to discredit, then chose to simply ignore it. The documentary evidence I provided he didn’t even dare to address. Therefore, and although he cannot show any rules or standards of criminal investigation and/or historical research whereby physical evidence is the only evidence that matters, he eventually went back to yelling for physical evidence and physical evidence alone. And what is more: he only accepts photographs as documentation of physical evidence, even though he has not been able to explain why written site investigation reports issued by criminal investigators, such as I quoted from several times throughout this discussion, should not be seen as sufficient documentation of physical evidence for forensic or historical purposes, whether or not they are illustrated by photographs.

In short, Gerdes has shown to be a charlatan who has no arguments against the evidence provided by his opponent (not to mention the utter absence of any evidence supporting his “transit camp” theory) and is therefore reduced to toting straw-men and demanding evidence the relevance, and even the suitability to provide proof of the events in question by itself, he is not able to demonstrate.

Quote:
>but due to Roberta's censoring of my posts (she flagged 2 of them as "abusive" >and they were deleted by the administrator),
Actually this accusation has no basis whatsoever, as Gerdes well knows. Not only can Gerdes show no evidence of my having “flagged” any of his messages, he also cannot explain why on earth I should have done that, assuming I was thus inclined (which I’m not), as I have shredded his every post on Topix and shown him up again and again as the bloody moron he is. Gerdes’ posts are so self-defeating that I would be damn stupid if I were to censor them – which, unlike Gerdes, I am not.

Quote:
>I needed to find another place to further destroy the little purse toting Portuguese >puke.
Actually what Gerdes needed was a place where he could count on the support of his "White" buddies and a friendly "White" moderator, because his feet were getting cold on a neutral, equal-opportunity discussion forum like Topix. That’s why he opened this thread on VNN, thereby clearly showing that he is the coward he accuses me of being.

Quote:
>I might further add that Roberta publicly challenged me to a debate to take place >at a >cesspool called RODOH, which I did in fact accept - >http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/6081 - >but I was promptly banned by >Roberta's boyfriend, the moderator nickterry.
Actually what happened was that the first thread Gerdes opened, see under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/6081 , was closed due to Gerdes having started out with a hysterical display of multi-colored, multi-sized, invective-laden howling, and Gerdes was told to take a less irritating approach. This he did, see under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/6070, and the moderator didn’t bother him there until he messed with the moderator’s name, calling him “dickterry”, in violation of forum rules. For that Gerdes was given a one-day suspension, see under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/962...ml#reply-96267. So much for the liar’s claim that he was “banned” from the RODOH forum.

RODOH stands for "Real Open Debate on the Holocaust", and the forum’s owner, a "Revisionist" by the name of Scott Smith, means every word of it. Therefore, while moderators may intervene on occasion to enforce forum rules against foul language and other nasty behavior, no one is censored on RODOH on account of his or her arguments.

Readers may have noted Gerdes apparent obsession with effeminateness (he accuses his opponent of being effeminate by calling him the female version of his name) and homosexuality (he calls someone his opponent’s “boyfriend”). I don’t know the reason for this obsession, but chances are that Gerdes is projecting a problem of his own here, effeminate and homosexual tendencies he sees in himself but doesn’t want to admit to. That would be a likely explanation for a grown man’s using a variety of insults that I last used when I was in grade school.

Quote:
>I should add also that both Roberta and little nicky are members of some freak >show called - >holocaust controversies, where this Roberta freak originally >challenged me to debate the >holocaust myth.
Very proudly thrashing “Revisionist” freaks since 2006, under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/ .

The challenge was part of an article that can be accessed under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...eg-gerdes.html , where I first exposed Gerdes’ ignorance and lack of intelligence – thereby driving the poor fellow carpet-biting mad, of course.

Quote:
>So, that's my introduction. To further clarify what it is exactly that I have been >tearing Roberta to shreds about, here is the last recap from the topix site:
Gerdes’ hollow claims to have torn me to shreds never cease to amuse me, for they are about as far away from reality as the “Black Knight”’s taunting of King Arthur in the film “Monty Python and the Holy Grail”. From the Wikipedia site on that film under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Knight_(Monty_Python) :

Quote:
«In the film, King Arthur (Graham Chapman), accompanied by his trusty serf Patsy (Terry Gilliam), is traveling through a forest when he enters a clearing and observes a fight taking place between a Black Knight (John Cleese) and a Green Knight (also played by Gilliam) by a bridge over a small stream. As he watches, the Black Knight defeats the Green, stabbing his sword straight through the eye slot of the Green Knight's helm.

Arthur then congratulates the Black Knight and offers him a place at his court on the Round Table, but he only stands still, holding his sword, and makes no response until Arthur moves to cross the bridge; he then refuses to stand aside. Reluctantly, Arthur fights the Black Knight, and after a short battle the Knight's left arm is severed.

However, even at this the Knight refuses to stand aside, insisting "'tis but a scratch" and fighting on. Next his right arm, which had been holding his sword, is also removed, but he still does not concede. As the Knight is literally disarmed, Arthur assumes the fight is over and kneels to offer a prayer to God. The Black Knight interrupts Arthur's prayer of thanks for his victory by kicking him in the side of the head and accusing him of cowardice; when Arthur points out his injuries he insists it's "just a flesh wound". In response to the continued kicks and insults, Arthur chops off first one leg and finally the other, at which the Black Knight then concedes to "call it a draw". Arthur summons Patsy and rides away, leaving the Black Knight to scream threats at him ("I'll bite off your legs off!"), where the scene fades out.»
In the Topix discussion, Gerdes has more or less reached the state of the armless and legless "Black Knight" threatening to bite his opponent’s legs off. Not being quite as unrealistic as the "Black Knight", however, Gerdes started looking for a way out of the situation. That’s why he falsely accused me of censorship in order to have a reason to run from Topix to the warm and cozy company of his "White" buddies.
 
Old December 21st, 2008 #10
Hadding
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberto Muehlenkamp View Post
The eyewitness evidence I provided he feebly tried to discredit, then chose to simply ignore it. The documentary evidence I provided he didn’t even dare to address. Therefore, and although he cannot show any rules or standards of criminal investigation and/or historical research whereby physical evidence is the only evidence that matters, he eventually went back to yelling for physical evidence and physical evidence alone.
It's because there has been a lot of lying on the Holocaustian side of this issue, some of it organized. Surely you know that.

There was also falsification of documents after the war.

If what people say is dubious, then you have to base your conclusions on physical evidence.

Last edited by Hadding; December 21st, 2008 at 02:09 PM.
 
Old June 5th, 2008 #11
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
>Well, it looks like Roberta Muehlenkamp has rested her case.
Actually the one resting his case is Gerdes, who hasn’t been able to address most (and to adequately address any) of the evidence I have shown or answer any of my questions.

I have made my case by providing evidence of various categories, all of which points to Treblinka having been an extermination camp where hundreds of thousands were killed.

What has Gerdes, on the other hand, provided by way of evidence pointing in the direction of his "transit camp" theory?

I’ll tell you, folks: nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Deafening silence.

Quote:
>Here is all the "physical evidence" that she has entered to date, and some of my commentary.
I bet the liar has left out the key documentation of the physical evidence that I provided, the Polish site investigation reports. What’s supposed to be wrong with these reports or why they should not be accepted as accurate renderings of the physical evidence he hasn’t yet explained, of course.

Quote:
>Please note that this freak pretends to be one of "the worlds foremost experts" on Treblinka,
So I’m supposed to have stated verbatim that I’m one of "the worlds foremost experts" on Treblinka” Gerdes?

Exact quote and link to where I’m supposed to have written that, please.

Or humbly admit that you lied once again.

Quote:
>and this is the best she can do when challenged to present the physical evidence of her claim >that the Treblinka holocaust really did happen.
False dilemma, Gerdes.

First of all, the description of the physical evidence in the Polish site investigation reports is quite telling, as I have explained in my article «Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure …» under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html .

And second, historical events like the Treblinka mass murder can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt without assessing the physical evidence, on hand of documentary and eyewitness evidence alone. West German criminal justice authorities have done just that at many an NS murder trial, and historians do it all the time.

>I will add a more consice recap shortly, but the following will provide the information needed to >see in what context the filthy lying bitch presented her "evidence."

Actually Gerdes hasn’t yet been able to demonstrate a single lie of mine, whereas I have caught him in a couple dozen lies throughout the Topix discussion (conservative estimate). And I wouldn’t be surprised if the following "recap" contained some more lies.

Quote:
>#22:

>Q - Can you provide photographic proof of this alleged "area of 20,000 square meters covered >by human remains and human remains to a depth of 7.5 meters?"

>A - “There are photographs of the area, some of which you can see under:

>http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html
Why don’t you quote all of what I wrote, Gerdes? Are you afraid of it?

From my post # 22 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...8H7P8C/p2#c22:

Quote:
«There are photographs of the area, some of which you can see under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttrac... . But the question is not whether there is photographic proof of what is stated in the Polish site investigation report. The question is what reasons there are to doubt the accuracy of that report, compatible as it is with evidence on which its authors could have had no influence. You’ve tried the “Soviet investigation” gambit and failed. Now try something else.»
Quote:
>#40:

>Roberta:

>“The grave digging is well-documented in Polish sources. To what extent it obliterated the >Treblinka mass graves we don’t know.”

>Q - If it was so well documented, then would you please show us the photos of this alleged >documentation?

>A - “look at some photographs related to the "Treblinka Gold Rush" that are included in a >Polish newspaper article about this phenomenon:

>http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/925...ml#reply-92506
Another out-of-context quote by liar Gerdes. The context, see my post # 40 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...L8H7P8C/p2#c40 , is the following:

Quote:
«>If it was so well documented, then would you please show us the photos of this alleged >documentation?

Faulty reasoning again. Why, i.e. according to what rules or standards other than Gerdes' own, must documentation of a well-documented event include photographs?

When Gerdes has answered this question, he may have a look at some photographs related to the "Treblinka Gold Rush" that are included in a Polish newspaper article about this phenomenon, translation available under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/92506/t/Gold...»
Quote:
>#45:

>Roberta:

>“Not that it would matter a damn thing if I could not, but a photograph available under:

>http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg

>is captioned as showing "One of the enormous pits in the Treblinka camp into which the >victims' corpses (and later, ashes) were thrown."
"Not that it would matter a damn thing if I could not", I wrote here. My position throughout this discussion was, and still is, that the physical evidence is sufficiently documented by the quoted Polish site investigation reports, independently of the extent to which their contents are illustrated by photographs. Yet liar Gerdes keeps trying to make believe that I provided photographs not just for illustration purposes and in response to his "just one" howling, but as <the> documentation of the physical evidence.

Quote:
>#152:

>Roberta:

>“Roberto never claimed that nobody has been able to locate "so much as a single tooth" at >Treblinka. On the contrary, I have referred to Vassili Grossman’s mention of having seen teeth >in the soil of Treblinka when he visited the place. And I have referred to a Polish newspaper >article translated under:

>http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/925...ml#reply-92506

>which mentions teeth found by robbery diggers.” (Please note that that “evidence” has been >presented to “prove” both the “grave diggers obliterated the traces of the “huge mass graves” >and that teeth have been found at Treblinka.)
Gerdes’ statement in brackets contains another lie. I never claimed that grave-diggers obliterated all traces of the mass graves, as becomes apparent from, among other statements of mine, the one from my post # 40 quoted earlier by Gerdes:

Quote:
«The grave digging is well-documented in Polish sources. To what extent it obliterated the Treblinka mass graves we don’t know.»
Poor Gerdes, he’s not only a liar but also a liar stupid enough to document his own lies.

Quote:
>#156:

>Roberta:

>“In the south-western part of the camp, roughly corresponding to the area of the "receiving >camp" (the Treblinka extermination camp consisted of 3 areas: the "the living camp" in the >northwest, the "receiving camp" in the southwest and the "death camp" in the south and south->east, the latter being the sector where the gas chambers, mass graves and incineration grids >were located), there are four shapes of ground scarring I circled and marked as 1, 2, 3 and 4 >on the September 1944 photograph:

>(Unmarked):

>http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap8.jpg

>(Marked):

>http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...r1944_edit.jpg

>Roberta:

>"I think that 1, 2 and 3 are in all probability pits for corpses which were used during the first >phase of Treblinka and 4 is the "Lazarett,”
Lying Gerdes unsurprisingly left out an important part of my post # 156 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p8#c156:

Quote:
«Question to Gerdes: if shapes 1, 2 and 3 are not pits for corpses which were used during the first phase of Treblinka, then what are they? Mind that whatever explanation you come up with has to match your claim that Treblinka was a mere "transit camp".

When you have satisfactorily answered these question, we may talk about where people are supposed to have "transited" to from "transit camp" Treblinka.»
Quote:
>#170:

>Q - Can you show us a single ground or aerial photograph in which the "huge mass graves" >and the "huge furnace pits" can be seen?

>Roberta:

>A – “Of the furnace pits none that I know, which is not surprising as photographing in the camp >was forbidden. Deputy commander Kurt Franz photographed nevertheless and kept an album, >from which he had torn out some pictures by the time he was arrested in 1959; these may >have shown interesting things like furnace pits, incineration grids and so. But he kept the >photos of the excavators, which are shown under:

>http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/excavators2.html
Liar Gerdes conveniently omitted the question in my post # 170 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...8H7P8C/p9#c170 coming right after that link:

Quote:
«Any idea what those excavators were doing in a "transit camp", Gerdes?»
Are you so afraid of that question, Gerdes? One might think you are, judging by how often you have run away from it.

Quote:
>There is also one photo, kept in the German Federal Archives under nº No. 183-F0918-0201->011 and online under:

>http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/photos.html

>that shows one corner of one of the mass graves.”

>Q - Can you provide a single photo that proves the existence of these alleged huge graves and >pits?

>Roberta:

>A – “No. But I can provide eyewitness testimonies,”
Quote-mining again, are we, Gerdes? Mind what follows:

Quote:
«No. But I can provide eyewitness testimonies, German documents and site investigation reports that prove the mass graves and pits and the mass murder for which both were used. How about explaining why you keep yelling for photographs, Gerdes? Are there any rules or standards of evidence according to which mass murder can only be proven with photographs?»
More questions that have been often asked and just as often avoided by Gerdes, the lying coward (or the cowardly liar, if you prefer).

When will you stop running away from my questions, Mr. Gerdes?
 
Old June 9th, 2008 #12
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Ok, time for a little update, with a couple of editions / changes on the specific subjects.

To date, this is all the "evidence" that Roberta has provided which she claims "proves" the Treblinka holohoax story:
I’m looking forward to Gerdes showing where I claimed that the evidence he will list hereafter is by itself proof of the mass murder at Treblinka. Needless to say, I wouldn’t be surprised if Gerdes omitted

a) the Polish site investigation reports of 13 November and 29 December 1945 and
b) the documentary and eyewitness evidence listed in my Topix post # 482 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p23#c482 .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
# 1 - Teeth (Between 24 and 96 million of them):
Didn’t you want to leave out the straw-man about Grossman’s "3 million" overestimate, which corresponds to the "96 million" teeth you’re babbling about?

Of course I have no problem with your showing again and again what a liar you are. Keep digging yourself in, Gerdes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
"The earth is throwing out crushed bones, teeth, clothes, papers."

As quoted by Vassili Grossman in this link here:

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?topic=4194&forum=2

And:

“Grave robbers from Wólka Okrąglik and neighboring villages pose for a photo together with militiamen who caught them red-handed. In the peasant's pockets there were golden rings and teeth of Jews… "With the grave robbers we found golden rings, crowns and porcelain teeth with gold and silver inlays."

As quoted in this link here:

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/925...ml#reply-92506

Also:

Q - Please tell us the EXACT number of teeth that you can prove have been located at Treblinka, along with the photos of said teeth and the names of those who claim to have found them and on what date and EXACTLY where in the Treblinka camp they were found.

Roberta:

A - "None of the sources I quoted contains this information, and I don’t think it is of any relevance... No, I have no photo of "just one" tooth. And you cannot explain what the hell that is supposed to matter... there’s no reason why I should physically have a single tooth in my hands or a photo of a tooth at my disposal."
Another of your mendacious "montages", Gerdes?

Let’s look at the whole of what I wrote, highlighting the parts that you picked out.

In post # 18:

Quote:
None of the sources I quoted contains this information, and I don’t think it is of any relevance. One can reasonably expect that most of the burned corpses' ashed teeth were crushed, together with most of what bones were not destroyed by the fire, but some were not, as the evidence I have provided shows. How many teeth were neither crushed nor fell apart is not known and need not be known.

But if you disagree and want to make your demand look like anything other than a showpiece of infantile silliness and a feeble attempt to question inconvenient evidence, please explain for what purpose exactly one would have to know how many teeth Grossman saw, how many teeth the Polish cops found with the grave-robbers, or where "exactly" in the former "death camp" sector of Treblinka those teeth were seen or picked up.

Relevance, Mr. Gerdes.

Demands the relevance of which you cannot demonstrate need not be met.

They are just pointless distractions.
What part of the word "relevance" do you not understand, Gerdes?

Quote:
No, I have no photo of "just one" tooth.

And you cannot explain what the hell that is supposed to matter
, in the face of documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence proving a mass murder that corresponds to as many teeth as 750,000 men, women and children had in their mouths.

So better drop that silly "just one" – rhetoric. It’s wearing thin, and I’m being polite.
Or do you have an explanation what the hell it is supposed to matter whether your opponent can show a photo of "just one" tooth, Gerdes? Judging by how you keep running away from this question, you have none.

In post # 21:

Quote:
As to the "single piece of tangible physical evidence" you babble about, there’s no reason compatible with the documentary, physical and eyewitness evidence of the Treblinka killings why I should physically have a single tooth in my hands or a photo of a tooth at my disposal, so I’m not "admitting" anything (apart from never having claimed that I had such a physical exhibit or photo of such a physical exhibit at my disposal, as the liar well knows). I have shown eyewitness testimony and documentary evidence mentioning teeth, which is proof enough that not all ashed teeth were crushed after the burning of the corpses but some were left intact. And as Gerdes cannot explain why the evidence I have shown should be less conclusive than a physical exhibit, or what reason there is to doubt the accuracy of that evidence, his yelling for "one single tooth" is as irrelevant as a spoilt little brat’s yelling for a lollipop.
Note that Gerdes left out the part "compatible with the documentary, physical and eyewitness evidence of the Treblinka killings", which is the one that matters. I guess he left it out because he cannot explain why the my having no photo of "one single tooth" at my disposal should be incompatible with the documentary, physical and eyewitness evidence of the Treblinka killings.

This is called quote-mining, Gerdes, leaving out a part of a quote to give it another meaning than it actually has. It’s a form of lying. But then, Gerdes starts lying as soon as he hits the keyboard, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
# 2 - Bullets & Shell casings (50,000 each) / Lazarett:

Roberta (from topix post #611):

"No, I can’t “show” you any specific bullet or shell casing. And you can’t explain what the hell it is supposed to matter that I can’t show you any specific bullet or shell casing, which means that you can stick your idiotic “just one” babbling you-know-where."
Exactly, Gerdes. Thanks for again confirming that you cannot demonstrate the relevance of your demands, which means that those demands are just pointless distractions. They may impress dumb suckers, but they don’t impress people with brains inside their heads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And from VNN:

"No "tangible" physical exhibits that I know of... involving such bullets and shell casings themselves. So it doesn’t matter a damn thing whether any bullets or shell casings have been found"

"No "tangible" physical exhibits that I know of... it doesn’t matter a damn thing whether any physical traces of the "Lazarett" could be identified."
More quote-mining, Gerdes? Let’s look at the above-quoted statements from post # 21 as a whole, highlighting the parts you conveniently left out:

Quote:
No "tangible" physical exhibits that I know of, but there’s no reason compatible with the historical record why such exhibits should necessarily have been found, while there is conclusive eyewitness testimony to the shootings at the "Lazarett" involving such bullets and shell casings themselves. So it doesn’t matter a damn thing whether any bullets or shell casings have been found.
Quote:
No "tangible" physical exhibits that I know of, but there’s no reason compatible with the historical record why such exhibits should necessarily exist, as the killers had all the time in the world to erase the physical traces of the "Lazarett". On the other hand, conclusive eyewitness testimony to the shootings at the "Lazarett" was provided at trials before West German courts, also and especially by the shooters themselves. So it doesn’t matter a damn thing whether any physical traces of the "Lazarett" could be identified.
Why did you leave out the highlighted parts, Gerdes? Because you cannot handle them, have no arguments against them? So it would seem.

Why are you not able to debate without lying through your teeth by quote-mining and straw-man misrepresentations of your opponent’s arguments, Gerdes?

Is it because you cannot handle what your opponent actually wrote, as opposed what you would like him to have written?

It would seem so.

Why did you leave out the important part, Gerdes? Let’s quote the whole thing, highlighting the part you omitted:

Quote:
Considerable amounts of physical exhibits are documented in two Polish site investigation reports, and photographs showing parts of what these reports describe are also available.
Are you so scared of what is written in those site investigation reports that you prefer to ignore them and make a fuss about what little of the reports’ contents is visible on photographs, as if I had ever stated that the photos and not the reports are the relevant records of the physical evidence?

It would seem so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Did I anywhere state that this photographs, which Alex Bay analyzes based on what he knows about the building from eyewitness testimonies, is proof of the gas chambers inside that building?

Show me where, Gerdes.

If you can’t, admit that you lied again.

Quote:
# 5 - The "huge mass graves -

A - In the "receiving" area:

Roberta:

“In the south-western part of the camp, roughly corresponding to the area of the "receiving camp" ...there are four shapes of ground scarring I circled and marked as 1, 2, 3 and 4 on the September 1944 photograph. I think that 1, 2 and 3 are in all probability pits for corpses which were used during the first phase of Treblinka and 4 is the "Lazarett:”

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...r1944_edit.jpg
My comment about this point in post # 21 was the following:

Quote:
At least one of these, 7.5 meters deep (or the part thereof that became a bomb crater with a diameter of 25 meters when robbery diggers set off explosives in their search for valuables), is described in Lukaszkiewicz’s site investigation report of 13.11.1945:

Quote:
The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition.[208] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.

Lukaszkiewicz’ report of 29.12.1945 describes what must have been the area of the mass graves in the "death camp", where ashes and bone fragments had been returned to the emptied mass graves and later projected to the surface by the activity of robbery diggers:

Quote:
In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay.

In my article Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure … under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html , I showed that these data allow for establishing the compatibility of the physical evidence with what becomes apparent from documentary evidence about the scale of the killing.
Why did you ignore this and instead quoted what I wrote about the mass graves in the "receiving camp" sector of Treblinka, Gerdes? Because you think that is easier for you to handle than the descriptions of at least one mass grave and of the whole mass graves area in the "death camp" sector in the quoted passages from examining judge Lukaszkiewicz’s reports?

It would seem so.

But OK, if you’d rather discuss the mass graves in the "reception camp" sector, there’s this question you have been often asked but never even attempted to answer:

What, if not mass graves in an area where at least two eyewitnesses mentioned the presence of mass graves, could the ground-scarring shapes I pointed out possibly have been, namely what that would be compatible with your "transit camp" theory?

When will you stop running away from this question, Gerdes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
* Please notice her contradiction from what she stated in # 2 above.
Wow, Gerdes is trying to be smart again. But even his mutilated quote of what I stated "in # 2" contains the following period:

«… it doesn’t matter a damn thing whether any physical traces of the "Lazarett" could be identified»

"It doesn’t matter a damn thing whether it could" does not mean "it cannot", of course. Get a brain, Gerdes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
B - In the "death camp" area (From topix post #543):

Q - Where EXACTLY is this "enormous pit" located Roberta?

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg

Captioned: "One of the enormous pits in the Treblinka camp into which the victims' corpses (and later, ashes) were thrown."

Roberta:

"It is exactly located in the former "death camp" sector of Treblinka extermination camp, Mr. Gerdes. That’s all criminal investigators and historians need to know."
Why did you leave out the rest of what I wrote in Topix post # 543 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p27#c543 , Gerdes?

I’ll highlight the parts you left out:

Quote:
It is exactly located in the former "death camp" sector of Treblinka extermination camp, Mr. Gerdes. That’s all criminal investigators and historians need to know, if they need to know it at all in order to prove the mass murder at Treblinka (which I don’t think is the case). If you want to know the precise geographic coordinates, I’m looking forward to your explaining the relevance of your demand.
So, Gerdes, where is your explanation?

What part of the word "relevance" do you not understand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Sorry, but I'm at loss about what the poet is trying to tell us here. Care to explain, Gerdes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
# 6 - Photos of the camp itself, from the outside:

A - During its construction:

B - During its operation:

C - During its destruction:
Adding new irrelevant demands now, Gerdes? Why so? Have you become conscious of how chewed-out the irrelevant demands you have made so far are?

It would seem so.

I don’t know of photos from the outside of any of the phases of the camp’s operation, and I doubt you can explain why there should necessarily be any. But I know of photographs from the inside, taken in violation of instructions received by deputy commander Kurt Franz. They are among the photos shown under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/photos.html , and the link http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/excavators2.html shows all of Franz's excavator photos.

As you are such a photo-freak, here are two questions regarding these photographs:

Regarding the photo captioned

«MASS GRAVE
If Treblinka, the boards were added to the bodies in course of a test burning. Usually the victims were buried in mass graves, later cremated on roasts.

Photo: Bundesarchiv No. 183-F0918-0201-011»

the question is: what, if not a corner of one mass grave where the bodies have been covered with boards and what looks like tarpaulin sheets, do you think this photograph shows?

Regarding the excavator photos under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/excavators2.html, the question (asked several times already and always studiously avoided by Gerdes) is the following:

What would these excavators have been doing in what you claim was a "transit camp"?

Answer the questions, Gerdes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Now look at this closely Roberta and let me know if I've forgotten something.
You’ve "forgotten" a lot, a I pointed out above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And please notice #6. What do you have for that Roberta?
You mean photos of the camp from the outside? There’s none that I know of, but I’ll check. Meanwhile, try explaining why you added another demand, the relevance of which you haven’t bothered to explain, without having yet explained the relevance of your previous demands let alone answered any of the questions I have asked you.

Is this just an attempt to throw more sand into the eyes of the suckers you apparently expect your "White" buddies to be, Gerdes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Again, please look over the evidence carefully Roberta, and let me know if I missed anything, because this will be the foundation for the next phase of our "debate."
I don’t expect the "next phase" to contain anything but a repetition of Gerdes’ straw-men and pointless demands, but who does Gerdes think he is to unilaterally establish the "foundation" of our debate?
 
Old June 5th, 2008 #13
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
>Before I go, let's do a simplified recap, something we can take to start over on >the new site >that Roberta can't censor:
I never censored anything, and Gerdes "recaps" on Topix have become an amusing pastime for me, as I count the lies (straw-man misrepresentations of his opponent’s arguments) that they contain. I’ve lost count of the total, but I once caught 11 lies in one "recap" alone.

Let’s see if Gerdes is better able to control his compulsion to lie on this forum.

Quote:
>Her arguments are based on Grossmans alleged investigation:

>http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?topic=4194&forum=2
Actually Grossman was only invoked as an eyewitness who saw crushed bones and teeth lying around on the Treblinka site after it had been overrun by the Soviets in 1944.

Quote:
>And the alleged Polish / jews investigation:

>http://vho.org/GB/Books/t/4.html
The site investigation reports issued by Polish examining judge Lukaszkiewicz on 13.11.1945 and 29.12.1945, which are quoted in my article «Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure …» under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html after Mattogno & Graf’s book on Treblinka, are indeed the key documentation of physical evidence to the Treblinka killings that I have presented. The pertinent excerpts from both reports have been quoted in the Topix discussion several times:

From the report of 13.11.1945:

Quote:
«The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition.[208] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.»
From the report of 29.12.1945:

Quote:
«In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay.»
Due to Gerdes incessant yelling for photographs – despite his never having been able to explain why these site investigation reports should not be seen as sufficient documentation, for the purposes of criminal justice an/or historiography, of the physical evidence to the Treblinka mass murder – I also provided photographs illustrating parts of what is described in the above-quoted reports. These photographs, or at least some of them, are mentioned in Gerdes’ "recap".

>This aerial photo of Treblinka:

>http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...r1944_edit.jpg

>(Remember her words:"I think that 1, 2 and 3 are in all probability pits for corpses which were >used during the first phase of Treblinka and 4 is the "Lazarett")

Showing of this commented photograph, as Gerdes fails to mention, was usually accompanied by my question what – if not mass graves in a section of the camp where eyewitnesses described mass graves – the ground-scarring shapes I pointed out could possibly have been. Gerdes was requested to provide a plausible alternative explanation, one that would be compatible with his "transit camp" theory. I’m still waiting for this explanation.

I’m also still waiting for Gerdes explanation what the excavators on the photos shown under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/excavators2.html are supposed to have been doing in a "transit camp".

These are just two of the questions that Gerdes was asked several times but never even tried to answer.

Quote:
>This article "proving" that there is "a huge concrete plate" that covers the entire "area of 20,000 >square meters." :

>http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/92506/t/Gold...

>(Remember her words: No, Gerdes, I cannot show you a photo of the concrete plate >underneath the memorial stones. I’ll try to find one (though the plate should be hard to see if >there’s grass or so above it)
My assumption that the 20,000 square meter area of the Treblinka "death camp" sector covered by human remains, according to examining judge Lukaszkiewicz’ report of 29.11.1945, is at present wholly or mostly covered by the memorial’s concrete foundation, is based on the following information in the Polish newspaper article available in English translation under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/925...ml#reply-92506 :

Quote:
«The memorial itself, an obelisk eight meters high, stands on a huge concrete plate, and on the same there are hundreds of boulders with the names of the victims' places of origin: Sochaczew, Siedlce, Warsaw, Saloniki. According to Martina Rusiniak, the author of a work about Treblinka, the memorial was given this shape in order to avoid the digging-up of the area. For by the end of the 1940s something like a grave-robber mafia had already come into being here.»
It stands to reason that, if the memorial was shaped so as to avoid the digging-up of the area, it must have been made to cover the part of the area where most digging took place, i.e. the area of the former mass graves.

Confirming this assumption there is the following information from Scrapbookpages, available under http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland...eblinka05.html and quoted in my Topix post # 383 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p19#c383 :

Quote:
«According to a pamphlet which I purchased at the Visitor's Center, "The great monument in Treblinka is a homage of the Polish people to those ashes lie under the concrete plates of the symbolic cemetery. It is one of the most tragic monuments of martyrdom in Poland."

My tour guide informed me that the ashes of the 800,000 people who were murdered here were dumped in this area and are now hidden underneath the concrete of the symbolic cemetery and by the grass and tiny flowers which cover the area.»
Also confirming this assumption there are the photographs of the Treblinka memorial I showed in my post # 384 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p19#c384 .

Quote:
>And these photos:

>http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html

>http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/photos.html

>This drawing:

>http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...neGrinders.jpg

>And the following photos with captions:

>Jews loading bodies onto a wagon, apparently in the Treblinka camp.

>http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5811_1_web.jpg

>Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp.

>http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5807_1_web.jpg

>Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp.

>http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg

>Human skeletal remains in the Treblinka camp.

>http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5810_1_web.jpg

>Heaps of ashes on the grounds of the Treblinka camp.

>http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5810_1_web.jpg

>One of the enormous pits in the Treblinka camp into which the victims' corpses (and later, >ashes) were thrown.

>http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg

>A heap of ashes in the Treblinka camp.

>http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5814_1_web.jpg

>There was much more to the "debate" than this of course.
Yeah, there was Gerdes’ spectacular blunder when he accused me of having lied about the GFH photos mentioned above being included in my RODOH thread "Mass Graves and Dead Bodies" under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/5963 . Care to tell your "White" buddies about how you were unable to use a search engine or scroll down beyond the first post on that thread, Mr. Gerdes?

More importantly, there was the documentary and eyewitness evidence listed in my Topix post # 482 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p23#c482 , with links to the posts or articles where the respective documents or testimonies are quoted or referred to.

The documentary evidence Gerdes studiously avoided.

The eyewitness evidence he feebly tried to discredit, but when that failed he also ignored it and went back to his original tactic of yelling for physical evidence and physical evidence alone – and that although documentation of the physical evidence had been provided.

Quote:
>There are 10 pages of this lying wench's keyboard diarrhea that I had the displeasure of >having to sift through, but that is pretty much what she has presented as her "proof" to date.
Poor Gerdes, as I have pointed out more than once, seems to hope that people will mistake his hollow invective for an argument.

Quote:
>She has shown herself to be the utmost coward, so we shall see if she accepts the invitation to >debate this issue on a real uncensored forum.
Actually the only one who has shown himself an utmost coward is Gerdes, by running away from my arguments and questions and falsely accusing me of flagging his posts in order to justify his exit to the warm and cozy company of his "White" buddies. And whether VNN is the "uncensored forum" he claims it to be, even for "White" people, remains to be seen.
 
Old June 5th, 2008 #14
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
>Hello again,

>Well, the only thing we're waiting for now is to see if Roberta Dullenkamp has the courage to >defend her incredible tall tale on a real, unfettered scientific forum.
I have no problem at all with unfettered scientific forums. Science consists in looking at all available evidence and deriving conclusions from that evidence, which is what I do all the time.

Quote:
>Here is my last post to her:

>http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...T8PL8H7P8C/p16

>Now Roberta, for the second time I have been accused of censoring on this forum (see your >Berlinbuttbuddy’s post # 265).

>So to assure that that doesn’t happen again, we are moving your asswhooping to a forum >where such nonsense can no longer occur. Even if you insist on posting here, I will only >answer you on the new forum here:

>http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php...

>And please Roberta, notice the title of the forum: Archaeology and Anthropology.

>Do you know what that means Roberta? It means we are leaving your Alice in Wonderland >fantasy world of magic glasses, seer stones and magic holocaust decoder rings and entering >the

>Are you willing to hold your fantasy up to the scientific method Roberta? If so, I’ll talk to you >soon in the new science forum Roberta. That is unless you’re too much of a coward to debate >on a real, unfettered scientific forum.

>Remember the subjects we’re currently debating.

>The photos of the excavators / proving the existence of a single body, etc.

>Your so-called “proof” of “huge mass graves” in the receiving area.

>The list of “eyewitnesses” who say burnings took place at Treblinka before Himmler’s order.

>I will have an updated recap done shortly.

>Are you in Roberta?
I’m having some trouble finding the post that Gerdes is quoting, but my replies to his invitation to VNN and his babbling about "science" can be found in my Topix posts # 355 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p17#c355, # 356 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p17#c356, # 357 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p17#c357 an # 359 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p18#c359. I quote from the last of these posts:

Gerdes:
Quote:
>Also ace, I see VNN has an entire section titled:

>Opposing Views

>So anyone is welcome to post there.
Me:
Quote:
«Yeah, and I guess they also have a "Jack Boot" who limits the number of opposition posts when things get too hot for the faithful. That was my experience of the Stormfront discussion board, see the RODOH thread "A Study in White Pride": http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/1747

As you can see, Gerdes, I once stepped into the wolf's lair, a place run exclusively by your kind of knuckle-dragging fanatics, discussed with at least half a dozen "White Pride" loons there, and moderator "Jack Boot" had to restrict the number of my posts to save the day for the faithful.

Yet you, Gerdes, won’t even move your ass to an equal-opportunity forum like RODOH, which moreover is owned by a "Revisionist", Scott Smith.

And you call me a coward, Gerdes?

As I said before, that’s like Elton John calling Brad Pitt a faggot.»
And here I am again, taking on my opponent in a "White" forum where he is surrounded by his buddies and can count on a friendly moderator to help him out, while I’m all alone. Yet Gerdes wouldn’t want to debate on an equal-opportunity forum like RODOH, where there are about as many "Revisionists" as there are opponents of "Revisionism", and he also tried to run away from an open discussion on Topix.

It should be obvious who of us two is a coward.
 
Old June 5th, 2008 #15
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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Quote:
>Well, my challenge to publicly debate Roberto Muellenkamp on an archaeology forum seems >to have failed completely due to his cowardice and utter fear of holding his incredible tall tales >up to the scientific method. Please notice that none of his fellow funnyboy freaks over at >holocaust controversies has the courage to defend their delusions here either. Typical.
Let’s see if I understand this correctly:

Gerdes is retreating to the "Archeology and Anthropology" section of a "White" forum because he figures that he can there invoke "science" to dismiss all evidence other than archeological/anthropological evidence.

Is that the point you’re trying to make, Gerdes?

If so, you’re really a funny bone.

Are we asked to believe that archeologists or anthropologists ignore all evidence other than the "scientific" evidence they find under ground or in human remains?

That archeologists reconstructing, say, life in Roman Pompeji and its destruction by the Vesuvius shunned all chronicles and other written records from Roman times and drew their conclusions exclusively on the basis of what they found on site? That they knew nothing about Roman culture and history from written records and learned it all from the physical traces that they found while excavating?

If archeologists had proceeded in this manner, looking only at the physical evidence and ignoring all other sources of evidence, their work would not have been a scientific undertaking. It would have been highly unscientific guesswork. What made the investigations of Pompeji scientific was that archeologists matched what they found on site with what they knew from written records about Roman culture and everyday life in a Roman city, and from the writings of Roman chroniclers about the destruction of Pompeji by volcanic ash from the Vesuvius.

Looking at all evidence one can get hold of, leaving none out and trying to reach a conclusion that duly takes all evidence into account – that’s scientific, Gerdes. Restricting the record of evidence to one category which, by its very nature, cannot possibly be expected to allow for reconstructing a historical event on its own, as you are trying to do in limiting the Treblinka evidence your are willing to look at to physical evidence (and moreover the documentation of that evidence to photographs) is not scientific, as I already pointed out in one of my above-mentioned Topix posts. It is highly unscientific charlatanry.

Quote:
>Oh well. What I'll do is just keep posting all my updates of the "debate" on this forum, so I can >keep a record of and show everyone what a total fraud Roberta is and just what a complete >lack of any tangible physical evidence there is for the Treblinka holohoax.
What Gerdes will be showing to any attentive reader with brains inside his or her skull is that he has not been able to explain

a) What exactly he means by "tangible" physical evidence,
b) Why the physical evidence I have provided is not whatever it is he calls "tangible" physical evidence, and
c) Why, according to what rules and standards other than his irrelevant own, "tangible" physical evidence is the only evidence that can be used to prove the occurrence of a certain event, or why the presentation and assessment of such evidence is an indispensable requirement of proof.

Any attentive reader with brains inside his or her skull will soon realize that all Gerdes has managed to do is make a fool of himself with pointless "show me" requests, the relevance of which he cannot explain, and his ignoring or unreasonably dismissing the evidence that has been shown to him.

Quote:
>BTW, this is what Roberta had to say when I challenged her to debate on VNN forum:

>"VNN consists of Nazi fucks like yourself, Gerdes. I see you don’t feel comfortable debating >out in the open and need the company of your buddies to give you moral support... >Historiography is a science, if you ask me. Historiography’s approach to evidence is a scientific >approach, which consists in working towards a conclusion by looking at all the evidence >available and seeing how it fits together. What you call "science", on the other hand, has >nothing whatsoever to do with science. It consists in distortion, misrepresentation and attempts >to reduce the record of evidence to the category that you figure is hardest for your opponent to >obtain – i.e. physical evidence – in order to push through conclusions pre-ordained by your >ideological articles of faith."

>You can just sense her utter fear of debating the Treblinka holohoax on a forum devoted to >archeology and the scientific method, can't you?
Yeah, especially from my characterization of the pseudo-scientific approach that Gerdes claims to be the "scientific method", which characterization Gerdes was dumb enough to quote:

Quote:
«Historiography’s approach to evidence is a scientific approach, which consists in working towards a conclusion by looking at all the evidence available and seeing how it fits together. What you call "science", on the other hand, has nothing whatsoever to do with science. It consists in distortion, misrepresentation and attempts to reduce the record of evidence to the category that you figure is hardest for your opponent to obtain – i.e. physical evidence – in order to push through conclusions pre-ordained by your ideological articles of faith.»
I’m not the one who is afraid of the scientific method, Gerdes. I cherish it and always work by it. But your ignoring or dismissing evidence without being able to explain why you ignore or dismiss it shows that the scientific method scares the shit out of you.
 
Old September 22nd, 2008 #16
T.F. Scheb
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 46
T.F. Scheb
Default Check this out

Muley, go here and look at the pretty little pictures then go buy a GPR [they are quite inexpensive nowadays] and then go see whats under those green spots. Try to remember the grass is always greener over the septic tank.

Then complete the challenge and collect your money.

If I were to challenge you to a footrace between New York and Miami via D.C. - would you ask why I didn't have a via point at Philadelphia?

You really look like an idiot.

Sorry, Mr. Gerdes, for sticking my kikus nosikus into your thread, but I just couldn't help it.
 
Old June 5th, 2008 #17
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
>In summarizing my “debate” with Roberto Muehlenkamp, we can start with my foundational >question to her:
Boy, that's the first time Gerdes called me by my actual name. Was he having a lucid moment?

Quote:
>“Roberta, can you locate the alleged “huge mass graves” of Treblinka on this Sept., 1944 >aerial map of Treblinka?”

>http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap ...

>After initially claiming, repeatedly, that it would be impossible to do so, Roberta then said that, >yes, after further analysis, she could indeed locate some of the alleged “huge mass graves” of <Treblinka on said aerial photo and presented the following analysis as “proof:”

>http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/cortag ...

>(Remember her own words:“I think that 1, 2 and 3 are in all probability pits for corpses which >were used during the first phase of Treblinka and 4 is the "Lazarett.")

>Please note: She also presented the following “eyewitness testimony” of Abraham Krzepicki >and Jankiel Wiernik which she claims “proves” the accuracy of her analysis:

>http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/38414/t/Treb ...
... and which Gerdes very feebly and unsuccessfully tried to discredit.

Several times I asked Gerdes a question, which is still standing:

What, if not mass graves, are the ground-scarring shapes I pointed out on the September 1944 photograph supposed to have been?

There’s a good reason for Gerdes having run away from this question throughout our discussion, of course. He cannot provide anything like a plausible explanation for why the operation of a shitty little "transit camp" should have left behind this ground scarring, the likeliest explanation for which is that it corresponds to mass graves in the Treblinka "reception" area, as described by Abraham Krzepicki and Jankiel Wiernik.

Quote:
>Then, when asked if she could provide any physical evidence of the alleged Treblinka >holocaust, she presented as “proof” these photos, allegedly taken by the 1946 Polish / jewish / >communist investigation team, which she claims discovered "an area of 20,000 square meters >covered by human remains and human remains to a depth of 7.5 meters," at the site:

>http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttrac ...

>http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/photos.h ...

>Please note: You can read about the Treblinka investigation mentioned above here:

http://vho.org/GB/Books/t/4.html

>She also emphatically claimed that the following photographs were also taken at Treblinka and >even provided us with their captions:

>1 - Jews loading bodies onto a wagon, apparently in the Treblinka camp:

>http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_multimedia/G ...

>2 - Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp:

>http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_multimedia/G ...

>3 - One of the enormous pits in the Treblinka camp into which the victims' corpses (and later, >ashes) were thrown.

>http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_multimedia/G ...
Here we have arrived at Gerdes’ first lie in his summarizing of our discussion. Photographs were submitted in response to Gerdes’ "show me just one photo" - babbling but not stated to be the documentation of the physical evidence at Treblinka. That documentation, as I made clear throughout this discussion, consists in the Polish site investigation reports again quoted in my post # 498 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p24#c498, which mention all the investigators’ findings on site while the photographs do nothing more than illustrate a small part of these findings.

Quote:
>She also claimed that the existence of at least one “huge mass grave” of Treblinka has been >proven and presented the following photograph as her “proof:”

>An open mass grave in Treblinka in 1943. Arad, Yitzhak; The Pictorial History of the >Holocaust, p. 299

>http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/imgs_trebl ...
Actually, as I have stated several times throughout this discussion, I consider proof of at least one mass grave to be contained in the following excerpt from examining judge Lukaszkiewicz’ report of 13.11.1945:

Quote:
«The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition.[208] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.»
On the other hand, I don’t remember having stated that I consider the photograph shown under http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/i...mass_grave.htm to be proof, in and by itself, of one of the Treblinka mass graves. But perhaps Gerdes can give me the number of the post where I’m supposed to have done so. What’s the post number, Gerdes?

Quote:
>And she again presented her analysis of this alleged “physical evidence:”

>http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/cortag ...

>(Remember her own words:“Shapes pointed out look human. They are neither wooden planks >not tarpaulin sheets.”)
This analysis was made in response to Gerdes’ question whether dead bodies could be made out on the photograph in question, IIRC. Actually I don’t consider this photograph to be very illustrative, because it shows only a small part of the pit in question and the bodies in the mass grave are mostly covered by what looks like wooden planks and tarpaulin sheets. And, as I have pointed out throughout this discussion, I don’t consider photographs in general to be significant elements of evidence, but rather see them as a means of illustrating what becomes apparent from other evidence.

Yet Gerdes seems to be so afraid of this photograph that he baselessly calls into question its authenticity with the inevitable "alleged" baloney. Poor Gerdes.

Quote:
>She then presented the following photograph of the alleged “homicidal gas chambers” of >Treblinka as her “proof” of its existence:

>http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/de ...
That’s Gerdes’ lie # 2 in this "summarizing" of his, for I never claimed that the photograph under http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...Figure36.shtml is proof of the homicidal gas chambers. What I did state, as far as I remember, was that the building visible on this photograph can be identified, by comparison with eyewitness descriptions, as having been the gas chamber building of Treblinka extermination camp.

Actually the most interesting object on that photograph is the excavator. Gerdes hasn’t yet stopped running away from my question what excavators would have been doing in what he claims was just a "transit camp".

Quote:
>Then, when asked if the alleged “huge mass graves” of Treblinka could be located today, she >said that they could not because “grave robbers” had obliterated all traces of them in their >search for “jewish gold” and presented the following “evidence” for this alleged “Treblinka Gold >Rush” and resultant obliteration of said graves:

>http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/92506/t/Gold ...
And there were are with Gerdes’ lie # 3 in his summarizing. Actually I stated at least twice that I didn’t rule out the possibility of identifying the Treblinka mass graves, or what robbery digging left of their structures, through an archaeological excavation like the one carried out at Belzec in 1997-1999 that managed to locate and identify 33 mass graves at that place.

Quote:
>Then, when asked if she could prove the existence of so much as a single tooth found at >Treblinka, she claimed that the above link also “proves” that teeth were found at the site and >offered the following quote from said link as “proof” of this:

>“In the peasant's pockets there were golden rings and teeth of Jews… With the grave robbers >we found golden rings, crowns and porcelain teeth with gold and silver inlays."

>She then went on to add that the following quote from Vassili Grossman’s report of his alleged >investigation offers additional “proof” that teeth were reportedly seen at Treblinka:

>"The earth is throwing out crushed bones, teeth, clothes, papers."

>Please note: You can read about Grossman’s alleged investigation here:

>http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/95592/t/Treb ...

>And here:

>http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php ...
Poor Gerdes seems to be so afraid of Grossman's mention of teeth at Treblinka that he always hastens to point out a "Revisionist" thread presumably making a fuss about exaggerated measurements and other figures in Grossman’s account, as if this would call into doubt the accuracy of Grossman’s mention of objects he saw with his own eyes.

Quote:
>Please note: Her claim that teeth were found at Treblinka totally contradicts her earlier claim >that the Germans had obliterated the tens of millions of teeth by crushing them into “tooth >meal” with “plugs,” which she claimed was done / looked like this:

>http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/cortag ...
Actually, as Gerdes well knows, I never claimed that the crushing of ashed teeth following incineration at Treblinka led to the obliteration of <all> of these teeth, which means that here we have Gerdes’ stinking lie # 4 in this summarizing of his. A lie that Gerdes has been repeating more than once and that has been pointed out as such every time, though not as often as other mendacious straw-men Gerdes has been dishing up throughout this discussion.

Quote:
>However, when asked why no one has ever been able to locate even one of the alleged “huge >mass graves” of Treblinka or even an iota of the remains of the alleged millions of pounds of >crushed bone, tens of millions of teeth, tens of thousands of bullets and shell casings or so >much as a single corpse which she claims were left in the bottom of the “huge mass graves” in >a “wax-fat transformation,”
The assumption underlying Gerdes’ question why no one has been able to locate this and that is a lie plain and simple, for Gerdes has been referred more than once to site investigation reports describing what physical traces of the killing Polish investigators found on the Treblinka site. The figures he throws around may impress impressionable suckers, but actually it can be mathematically demonstrated, as I have shown in this discussion, that the expectable remains of the incineration of about 750,000 people occupy but a small part of the presumable volume of the Treblinka mass graves. Gerdes howling about "tens of thousands of bullets and shell casings" obviously presumes that these objects, easy to identify and pick up after each shooting, were just left lying around by his SS-heroes (who, of course, were not as stupid and careless as their admirer).

Quote:
>she claims the reason is because there is a “20,000 square meter concrete plate” which >covers the entire alleged “huge mass graves” area and all the alleged physical evidence and >presented this photo as “proof:”
As I never claimed that "no one has been able to locate" human remains on the Treblinka site (see above), I cannot possibly have made the statement that is here attributed to me, so that’s Gerdes’ lie # 5.

The concrete plate supporting the present-day memorial, about the area of which I don’t remember having made a definite statement, was mentioned, IIRC, as an obstacle to carrying out an archeological investigation at Treblinka like was carried out at Belzec by Prof. Kola in 1997-1999. In order to try identifying the Treblinka mass graves, the memorial and the concrete plate it rests on would first have to be removed.

Shall we count this as Gerdes’ lie # 6, folks? Nah, let’s be generous. We can afford it as more obvious lies will follow.

Actually this photograph was provided to illustrate/corroborate the information about the Treblinka memorial provided by a Polish historian, cited in the Polish newspaper article translated under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/925...ml#reply-92506, and a tour guide referred to under httphttp://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Treblinka/Treblinka05.html.

As Gerdes well knows that I have never stated a photograph to be proof of anything in and by itself, I’ll count this claim as his lie # 6.

Quote:
>And that’s it folks! Seriously, that’s all the alleged physical evidence there is for the Treblinka >holocaust!
No, the documentation of the physical evidence is not in any of the photographs I have shown, or in any number of those photographs. As Gerdes well knows, I have always referred to the site investigation reports as documentation of the physical evidence, and to photographs of the site as mere illustrations of that documentation (which means that this is Gerdes' lie # 7). Just how telling the documented physical evidence is has been pointed out in my article "Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure …" under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html, referred to several times throughout this discussion.

Quote:
>And please do take the time to read the alleged “eyewitness and documentary evidence” that I >included at Roberta’s insistence. Seriously, she actually claims that that nonsense actually >substantiates the “physical evidence” she presented!
Ladies & Gentlemen, this is how a charlatan tackles eyewitness evidence he feebly tried to discredit and documentary evidence he didn’t even dare to address: he bluntly calls it "nonsense" and hopes that his readers will be suckers enough to accept that and not check whether the evidence in question is what Gerdes claims it to be.

Just in case there might be some more critical people among our audience, Gerdes avoided providing a link where such readers can find the eyewitness and documentary evidence I provided and decide for themselves if what Gerdes calls "nonsense" is not actually sufficient evidence to prove the mass murder at Treblinka even without an assessment of the physical evidence.

In my post # 482 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p23#c482, readers can find a list of the documentary and eyewitness evidence that Gerdes tried but failed to handle or didn’t even dare to address, with links to posts and articles quoting or referring to that evidence.

Please note that Gerdes, contradicting his previous baseless attempt to limit the record of evidence to physical evidence, seems to be now signaling that he considers eyewitness and documentary evidence relevant. And he is also expressing his uneasiness about that evidence. Why else would he dispute the authenticity of the evidence in question by calling it "alleged" evidence? Looks like Gerdes is well aware that what he lamely calls "nonsense" is not nearly as nonsensical as he would like it to be.
 
Old June 10th, 2008 #18
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Roberta:

"Did I anywhere state that this photographs, which Alex Bay analyzes based on what he knows about the building from eyewitness testimonies, is proof of the gas chambers inside that building? Show me where, Gerdes. If you can’t, admit that you lied again."
Roberta, that is exactly why I asked you to review what I had just written, so you could correct any mistakes that I might have made. If I give you the opportunity to correct what I've written, and make those corrections, that can hardly be called lying now can it?
The problem is that this is not the first time you have tried the "gas chamber" thing. You tried it on Topix before, and I called your attention to it. The first time might be a misunderstanding, but if you repeat the same crap after having been shown that it’s crap, you’re either dumb as a door or lying. Which of them is it, Gerdes?

Besides, that’s one of the less serious misrepresentations or omissions I have pointed out. There are others you tried over and over again on Topix and here as well, they were pointed out every time and yet you kept repeating them. Case in point: the "96 million teeth" straw-man, which corresponds to the straw-man about Grossman’s "3 million" overestimate which you even said you would drop.

And then there are the quote-mining exercises I pointed out in post # 26, leaving out important parts of my statements when quoting them. That’s also lying.

Face it, Gerdes, you are a compulsive liar. It’s stronger than you. Better seek help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
So, I take it you're saying you never claimed said photo is an actual photo of the gas chambers of Treblinka. OK, duly noted and I will delete it from the "evidence" file you have presented. Thank you for the correction Roberta.
Do we have another deliberate misunderstanding here, or is that only your equally prominent stupidity? I’m not saying that the photo is a not a photo of the gas chamber building. Certain features visible on the photograph can, if compared with eyewitness descriptions of that building and the related procedures, be identified as features of the gas chamber building. But if you just look at the photograph without knowledge of the eyewitness descriptions, it tells you nothing. So, while the photo does show the gas chamber building, it is not by itself proof of that building’s existence. If anything, it is corroboration of eyewitness testimonies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Roberta (concerning subsection #6):

"You mean photos of the camp from the outside? There’s none that I know of, ...I don’t know of photos from the outside of any of the phases of the camp’s operation, and I doubt you can explain why there should necessarily be any."

Thank you Roberta, I will include that in the next recap.
Quote-mining again, are we, liar?

If you want to include something in the next one of your mendacious "recaps", include the following (emphases added):

Quote:
Adding new irrelevant demands now, Gerdes? Why so? Have you become conscious of how chewed-out the irrelevant demands you have made so far are?

It would seem so.

I don’t know of photos from the outside of any of the phases of the camp’s operation, and I doubt you can explain why there should necessarily be any. But I know of photographs from the inside, taken in violation of instructions received by deputy commander Kurt Franz. They are among the photos shown under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/photos.html , and the link http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/excavators2.html shows all of Franz's excavator photos.

As you are such a photo-freak, here are two questions regarding these photographs:

Regarding the photo captioned

«MASS GRAVE
If Treblinka, the boards were added to the bodies in course of a test burning. Usually the victims were buried in mass graves, later cremated on roasts.

Photo: Bundesarchiv No. 183-F0918-0201-011»

the question is: what, if not a corner of one mass grave where the bodies have been covered with boards and what looks like tarpaulin sheets, do you think this photograph shows?

Regarding the excavator photos under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/excavators2.html , the question (asked several times already and always studiously avoided by Gerdes) is the following:

What would these excavators have been doing in what you claim was a "transit camp"?

Answer the questions, Gerdes!
Tell me, Gerdes, what do you keep making these silly "recaps" for? In order to obfuscate the evidence you cannot address, avoid answering my questions and fool the suckers you obviously expect your "White" buddies to be? It would seem so.
 
Old June 10th, 2008 #19
yankee jane
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Is there a reason you all don't like img tags for your pics? You just need to push the little "insert image" button when entering the pic's address ... a reader can't keep opening images for that many pictures.
 
Old June 13th, 2008 #20
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Roberta:

"I could do without the photos"

Yes Roberta, you will be doing without those 7 photos if you can't prove that they were taken at / in Treblinka.
I would have no problem with that, but the burden of proof that these photos are not what all associated evidence shows them to be, i.e. postwar photographs of the Treblinka site, lies with bigmouth Gerdes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And BTW folks, Roberta is singing the same "I can do without the photos" nonsense in our "debates" about Belzec, Chelmno and Sobibor also.
… where, despite several requests that he do so, Gerdes has never even tried to explain why photos should be seen as a necessary and indispensable documentation of the physical evidence, and what rules or standards of evidence he can show us stipulate such necessity. The best the poor fellow can do is to lamely call my position "nonsense", go figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
She is getting very very desperate as the noose tightens and she senses what is happening to her.
Again projecting your own situation onto your opponent, Gerdes?

Or are you trying to convince your "White" buddies that you’re winning this, hoping they will be dumb enough to fall for your hollow bragging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Roberta:

"Not that it matters... what exactly would you accept as proof that the photographs were taken at Treblinka, Mr. Gerdes?"

The name of the photographer, the date the photos, the alleged location in the camp that they were taken and all the other photos taken by the photographer in Treblinka / on that day. That is just a start.
That’s quite a lot, especially when coming from who carries the burden of proof that the photographs do not show what according to all associated evidence they do. Does the spoilt little brat also want me to buy him an ice-cream on top of all he yells for?

The name of the photographer can be provided. On pages 82/83 of their Treblinka book, Mattogno & Graf write the following (emphasis mine):

Quote:
After the conclusion of the previously described investigations, the Treblinka matter was allowed to rest for more than a year. But the preparations for the Nuremberg Trial awakened the interest of the Jewish Central Historical Commission as well as of the Polish State Prosecutor’s office for that camp. On November 6, 1945, the latter carried out an inspection trip to Treblinka, in which participated: Rachel Auerbach and Józef Kermisz as representatives of the said Jewish Commission, Judge Zdzislaw Lukaszkiewicz, State Prosecutor J. Maciejewski, land surveyor K. Trautsolt, the witnesses Samuel Rajzman, Tanhum Grinberg, Szimon Friedman, and M. Mittelberg – all members of the Association of Former Treblinka Inmates – J. Slebczak, President of the district council of Siedlce, Major Jucharek from the neighboring village of Wólka Okrąglik, and finally photographer Jakob Byk.
Of the six post-liberation Treblinka photos shown in my RODOH thread Mass Graves and Dead Bodies under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/596...ad-Bodies.html :

1. Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5807_1_web.jpg

2. Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg

3. Human skeletal remains in the Treblinka camp.

http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5810_1_web.jpg

4. Heaps of ashes on the grounds of the Treblinka camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5809_1_web.jpg

5. One of the enormous pits in the Treblinka camp into which the victims' corpses (and later, ashes) were thrown.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg

6. A heap of ashes in the Treblinka camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5814_1_web.jpg

, photographs 2 and 4 show the name of the photographer: "J. Byck, Warszawa", who is obviously identical with the "Jacob Byk" mentioned by Mattogno & Graf. This means that the photographs were taken during the site inspection/investigation carried out between 6 November and 13 November 1945. Photographer Byk/Byck seems to have been part of the investigation team headed by Examining Judge Zdzislaw Lukaszkiewicz, and all above photographs are from the same collection (Ghetto Fighters Museum), so it seems reasonable to assume that photographs 1, 3, 5 and 6 were taken by Mr. Byk/Byck as well.

The exact date of the photographs I don’t know, but it must have been between 6 November and 13 November 1945.

The collection of photographs under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html includes two photos:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp40.jpg

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp39.jpg

that show exactly the same as the above numbers 4 and 6 and were thus obviously taken by the same photographer, with the same camera and at the same time.

Of the other photos under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html , these three:

7. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp41.jpg

8. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp43.jpg

9. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp42.jpg

look to my like they were taken with the same camera, so I would attribute them to Mr. Byk/Byck and the period between 6 and 13 November 1945 as well.

This photograph:

10. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp35.jpg

may also be from the same source, but it is equally possible that it was taken during the Soviet investigation preceding the Polish one.

This photograph:

11. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp44.jpg

is obviously from the Soviet investigation, as captioned.

The remaining photographs

12. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp46.jpg

13. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp47.jpg

14. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp48.jpg

15. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp49.jpg

16. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp50.jpg

17. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp51.jpg

look like they have been taken with a camera other than that of Mr. Byk/Byck. As the investigators in the last photo look like civilians rather than Red Army soldiers, however, it is possible that these photos are related to a Polish site inspection/investigation other than the one headed by judge Lukaszkiewicz, maybe the inspection/investigation involving Mr. Karol Ogrodowczyk from Warsaw that is mentioned in the Polish newspaper article translated into English under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/588...Treblinka.html . This photo of skulls on the Treblinka site:

18. http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_3.jpg

, which is included in that newspaper article, may be related to the Ogrodowczyk inspection/investigation as well.

On the other hand, this photo:

19. http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_2.jpg

shows the result of a Polish militia action against robbery diggers and must have been part of the corresponding militia report. In my translation of the Polish newspaper article about the "Gold Rush in Treblinka", this photo is addressed in some detail:

Quote:
In one of the huts in Wólka we got to see a unique photo of this action - perhaps the only one that survived. No one had so far published it. A scene in the open field: soldiers armed with machine pistols are standing around a group of villagers. The women with headscarves and long skirts, as if on harvest. Only there are spades instead of sickles in their hands. The men with berets and jackets, with spades. Piled up in front of them are skulls and limb bones. No consternation is to be seen on the faces. Those arrested know that they have nothing to fear.

We figure how many inhabitants of Wólka, Grądy and Prostyń may recognize their parents and grandparents on this photo. We read the report about the roundup, which the head of the unit from Ostrowa presented to his superiors: "With the grave robbers we found golden rings, crowns and porcelain teeth with gold and silver inlays."

In the archives there is no indication that anyone was put on trial for pilfering graves. The show-off action was completed, photos of those arrested were made, a report was sent out, the military returned to its barracks, the grave robbers - to Treblinka. The intensive rummaging doesn't stop for the next 15 years.

"The people have learned the difference between almonds and diamonds," says the house owner whom we show the photo. For a long time he studies the faces on the photograph. He doesn't want to reveal who he recognized, but he admits: "These are no anonymous people". Several times he repeats that, were we to mention his name in the "Gazeta", the neighbors would set fire to his house.
As to the "alleged" (why so scared, Mr. Gerdes?) location in the camp where these photographs were taken, the likeliest choice is the area described as follows in Lukaszkiewicz’ report of 29.12.1945, quoted in my article Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure … under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html :

Quote:
In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of« wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay.
However, Mr. Gerdes is free to point out another location described in this report or the one of 13.11.1945 that better fits what can be seen on the photographs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
When you can do that, we will get into the analysis of the photos.
Such “analysis” should start by pointing out indications that, contrary to what is shown by all associated evidence and what can be established about the photographs’ author, date and place (see above), these photos show another place and other objects than those they obviously show. Maybe Mr. Gerdes can point out some Montana ridge or Peoria building in the background. Good luck, Mr. Gerdes!
 
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