Archeological Investigations of Treblinka

[littlefieldjohn]

Maybe get some genetic counseling while you're in there too, Roberto.

[Anders]

Roberta:

It should take me no more than a week.

Of course I’m going to post in strict compliance with the NAFH rules, one thread for each grave and whatever else the rules require.

Roberta:

It should take me no more than a week.

Of course I’m going to post in strict compliance with the NAFH rules, one thread for each grave and whatever else the rules require.

Roberta:

It should take me no more than a week.

Of course I’m going to post in strict compliance with the NAFH rules, one thread for each grave and whatever else the rules require.

Roberta:

It should take me no more than a week.

Of course I’m going to post in strict compliance with the NAFH rules, one thread for each grave and whatever else the rules require.

Roberta:

It should take me no more than a week.

Of course I’m going to post in strict compliance with the NAFH rules, one thread for each grave and whatever else the rules require.

Roberta:

It should take me no more than a week.

Of course I’m going to post in strict compliance with the NAFH rules, one thread for each grave and whatever else the rules require.

Roberta:

It should take me no more than a week.

Of course I’m going to post in strict compliance with the NAFH rules, one thread for each grave and whatever else the rules require.

Roberta:

It should take me no more than a week.

Of course I’m going to post in strict compliance with the NAFH rules, one thread for each grave and whatever else the rules require.

Roberta:

It should take me no more than a week.

Of course I’m going to post in strict compliance with the NAFH rules, one thread for each grave and whatever else the rules require.

Roberta:

It should take me no more than a week.

Of course I’m going to post in strict compliance with the NAFH rules, one thread for each grave and whatever else the rules require.


14 proofs in strict compliance with the NAFH rules by March 5th?

I call bullshit.

Let's see if there's anything posted yet

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewforum.php?f=39

Nope, nothing yet.

What are you waiting for Roberta?

What are you so afraid of?

BTW, Roberta is already posting on Shermers forum using the sockpuppet "Mathew Ellard."

[Bill Wassner]

Retardo:

Of course I’m going to post in strict compliance with the NAFH rules, one thread for each grave and whatever else the rules require.

Anders:

I call bullshit

.


Oh how right you are Anders.

Look at what it posted:

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopi...5b5123c67af3fd


Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!


And this is “whatever else the rules require.”



Greg Gerdes email to Retardo:

Re - Thread titles and opening / closing statements

Hello Nancy, let’s put the final touches on this and then you can get to work.

The following rules MUST be complied with TO THE LETTER.

* Please pay attention to the bolded print as that is what is to be included in your posts. *

Rule #1 - You MUST post using your real / legal name.

(Note: The above rule does not have to appear in your posts.)

Thread Titles:

Each thread title for each fraudulently alleged “huge mass grave” MUST read like this (I will use fraudulently alleged Sobibor “grave” # 4 / 42 as an example, as can be seen in this forum thread here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1 ):

* EXAMPLE FOR FRAUDULENTLY ALLEGED “HUGE MASS GRAVE # 4 / 42:

Proof that alleged Sobibor grave # 4 / 42 contains the remains of at least 19 bodies

NOTE: All posted information MUST coincide with the grave numbering system used by the N.A.F.H. as seen on this webpage here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1

Any posted information that obfuscates which fraudulently alleged “huge mass grave” is in question will automatically disqualify said posted information / thread from consideration of entitlement of any reward money. Any questions about which fraudulently alleged “huge mass grave” we’re talking about MUST be clarified BEFORE a thread is started on said “grave.”

Opening statement:

Each opening statement for each thread MUST read like this (I will use fraudulently alleged Sobibor “grave” # 4 / 42 as an example, as can be seen in this forum thread here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1 ):

* EXAMPLE FOR FRAUDULENTLY ALLEGED “HUGE MASS GRAVE # 4 / 42:

The following information is being presented as proof that alleged Sobibor grave # 4 / 42 contains the remains of at least 19 bodies, in accordance with The National Association of Forensic Historians TM grave numbering system found in this link here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1

There MUST NOT be anything appearing before the opening statement and a WORKING link MUST be provided.

Closing statement:

Each closing statement for each thread MUST read like this (I will use fraudulently alleged Sobibor “grave” # 4 / 42 as an example, as can be seen in this forum thread here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1 ):

* EXAMPLE FOR FRAUDULENTLY ALLEGED “HUGE MASS GRAVE # 4 / 42:

The preceding information was presented as proof that alleged Sobibor grave # 4 / 42 contains the remains of at least 19 bodies in my attempt to lay claim to The National Association of Forensic Historians TM N.A.F.H. Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM $1,000.00 reward for said grave. Michael Shermer now has 60 days from today (insert today’s date here) to explicitly and legally certify that he endorses said posted proof. Michael Shermer can explicitly and legally endorse said posted proof by contacting, via email, Greg Gerdes, president of The National Association of Forensic Historians TM, (Contact information can be found at the bottom of their website here: http://www.nafcash.com ) and making the following statement to Greg Gerdes:

I, Michael Shermer, acting as sole appointed arbiter of The National Association of Forensic Historians TM N.A.F.H. Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM, in accordance with skeptical standards, do hereby explicitly and legally certify that I categorically endorse the information in - POSTER’S NAME AND THREAD TITLE – as meeting my own, skeptic magazine’s and the skeptics society’s standards of proof, that – CAMP / GRAVE NUMBER – does in fact contain the remains of at least 19 bodies.

(Note: What is to be judged and certified by Shermer is all information that is sandwiched between the opening and the closing statements in this thread.)

One last note to you Nancy, if all the information that you want posted doesn’t fit in one single thread post, then that is ok, and links are allowed. You can use more than one post if it all that you want to post doesn’t fit in one single post, as long as all the information that is posted is done at the same time and the opening and closing statements sandwich your initial posted information.

Now get to work Nancy-boy.

Greg Gerdes

President

The National Association of Forensic Historians

http://www.nafcash.com/

The vilest form of self-abasement is the subordination of your responsibility to reason to the minds of others.

A true measure of a man's charater is his willingnes to speak the turth - even at the expense of his reputaion.

A hallmark of self-deceiving cowards is their acceptance of authority as their truth, rather than the truth as their authority.

Greg Gerdes:

The following rules MUST be complied with TO THE LETTER.

Retardo:

non-compliance with these rules disqualifies from consideration of entitlement of any reward money… I get no money then? Couldn't care less… That's how it will be… Gerdes will be free to invoke non-compliance… what the heck. No money then? OK, so be it. I couldn't care less.

That's pretty obvious, isn't it Retardo?

[Brian Laine]

Why would Roberto Muehlenkamp sabotage himself like that from the get go?

Is he retarded or what?

Roberto Muehlenkamp were you aware of the posting rules before you posted on Shermers forum?

A simple "YES" or "NO" will do, thanks.

YES or NO, Roberto Muehlenkamp?

[Bill Wassner]

Brian Laine:

Is Roberto Muehlenkamp retarded or what?

Oh, Its more than retarded Brian, and It most certainly sabotaged Itself. But It did post about Belzec Grave # 3.

It didn't comply with any of the posting rules, but let's have a 60 day countdown anyway, shall we?

Today is day #60

Has Shermer sent Gerdes an email endorsing your "proof" yet Retardo?

A simple "YES" or "NO" will do, thanks.

YES or NO, Retardo?

[Roberto Muehlenkamp]

My submission didn't comply with any of the "posting rules" that Gerdes the chicken sent me the day after I had accepted the rules stated on the NAFH site?

How frightfully shocking, especially as I clearly told Gerdes where he could stick those a posteriori "posting rules".

Sabotage myself? Not really, even I was after the money rather than the fun of seeing Gerdes three sockpuppets ("Anders", "Brian Laine" and "Bill Wassner") jump up and down like scared fishwives. Gerdes knows as well as I do that Shermer would never endorse a text in which the mass graves are referred to as "fraudulently alleged" and such - which of course is why he sent me those belated "posting rules".

Here's my response to the mail containing those "posting rules", Gerdes' meeker but still unacceptable new proposal and my final response to that proposal:

Re: NAFH Challenge Rules
...
From:
Guadalupe Salcedo <[email protected]>
...
View Contact
To: Greg Gerdes <[email protected]>
Still trying to impose cowardly "rules" that were unknown to me when I accepted the rules stated on the NAFH site in order to make sure that I submit proof in terms that Shermer will never endorse, chickenshit?

I could accept your "rules" provided that neither the term "fraudulently" nor the term "alleged" nor any other term indicating that the graves are not a proven fact is used, and that the fraudulent "National Association of Forensic Historians" and its "challenge" are only referred to in quote marks. Also no deadline for Mr. Shermer, and it must remain up to him how he states his endorsement, for he may consider it below his standing to even exchange a word with a creature like Greg Gerdes.

Here's the submission text I could accept, also and especially because it is what I can expect Mr. Shermer to accept:

* Example for the grave numbered “4” in Prof. Andrzej Kola’s report about archaeological investigations at Sobibór in 2001.



Proof that the Sobibór mass grave numbered “4” in Prof. Andrzej Kola’s archaeological report [name of report] (referred to as “alleged Sobibor grave # [x] / 42” by the “National Association of Forensic Historians” – hereinafter NAFH - , according to their numbering system under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1 ) contains the remains of at least 19 bodies



Opening statement:



The following information is being presented as proof that the Sobibór mass grave numbered “4” in Prof. Andrzej Kola’s archaeological report [name of report] (referred to as “alleged Sobibor grave # [x] / 42” by NAFH, according to their numbering system under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1) contains the remains of at least 19 bodies:



[Proof submitted]



Closing statement:



The preceding information was presented as proof that the Sobibór mass grave numbered “4” in Prof. Andrzej Kola’s archaeological report [name of report] (referred to as “alleged Sobibor grave # [x] / 42” by NAFH, according to their numbering system under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1 ) contains the remains of at least 19 bodies, in my attempt to lay claim to “The National Association of Forensic Historians TM N.A.F.H. Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM” $1,000.00 reward for said grave.



Michael Shermer is requested to, within 60 days from today [posting date]), explicitly and legally certify that he endorses said posted proof.



Michael Shermer can explicitly and legally endorse said posted proof by contacting, via email, Greg Gerdes, “president” of “The National Association of Forensic Historians TM”, (Contact information can be found at the bottom of their website here: http://www.nafcash.com) and state the endorsement to Greg Gerdes, by posting the endorsement on the Skeptics Society Forum, or by stating the endorsement in writing in any other way he may consider appropriate.



The suggested text of the endorsement is the following:



I, Michael Shermer, acting as sole appointed arbiter of “The National Association of Forensic Historians TM N.A.F.H. Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM”, in accordance with skeptical standards, do hereby explicitly and legally certify that I categorically endorse the information in [poster name]’s thread [name of thread] as proof, according to my own, Skeptic Magazine’s and the Skeptics Society’s standards of proof, that the Sobibór mass grave numbered “4” in Prof. Andrzej Kola’s archaeological report [name of report] (referred to as “alleged Sobibor grave # [x] / 42” by NAFH, according to their numbering system under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1 ) contains the remains of at least 19 bodies.


However, Mr. Shermer is free to use any other wording having the same meaning as concerns his endorsement of proof submitted as meeting his, Skeptic Magazine's and the Skeptics Society's standards of proof.


I shall once more post my submission of proof regarding the grave numbered "3" in Prof. Kola's archaeological report , and use this format for all other threads. If you don't respond to this mail, I'll assume you are in agreement with this format. I you respond cussing and fussing and proposing something else, I shall use this format anyway, regardless of whether or not you use that as a pretext for denying the reward.


Ah, and don't give me that "playing by the rules" crap. I play by rules that I agreed to follow in knowledge of such rules, but never by rules that self-projecting chimp brain Gerdes tries to impose afterwards in a panicky attempt to reduce the possibility of a successful reward claim. And if you want to see a Nancy-boy, look in the mirror.



From: Greg Gerdes <[email protected]>
To: Guadalupe Salcedo <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 5:52:25 AM
Subject: Re: NAFH Challenge Rules

Nancy, were you made aware of the N.A.F.H.'s posting rules before you posted on Shermers forum?

Yes or No?

(Note, the rules have been clarified every so slightly - just cleaning up a few typos, etc., so the previous set of rules applied to Belzec grave # 3 only. The following set of rules will apply to the other 59 proofs that the N.A.F.H. is asking for.

Why are you so afraid to play by the rules Nancy boy?



The National Association of Forensic Historians TM



OFFICIAL POSTING RULES



The following posting rules MUST be complied with TO THE LETTER.



* Please pay attention to the bolded print as that is what MUST be included in your posts. *



You MUST post using your real / legal name.



Thread Titles:

Each thread title for each fraudulently alleged “huge mass grave” MUST read like this (Fraudulently alleged Sobibor “grave” # 4 / 42 will be used as an example, as can be seen in this web page here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1 ):



* EXAMPLE FOR FRAUDULENTLY ALLEGED “HUGE MASS GRAVE # 4 / 42:



Proof that alleged Sobibor grave # 4 / 42 contains the remains of at least 19 bodies



NOTE: All posted information MUST coincide with the grave numbering system used by the N.A.F.H. as can be seen in this webpage here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1



Any posted information that obfuscates which fraudulently alleged “huge mass grave” is in question will automatically disqualify said posted information / thread from consideration of entitlement to any reward money. Any questions about which fraudulently alleged “huge mass grave” the N.A.F.H. is referring to MUST be clarified BEFORE a thread is started.



Opening statement:

Each opening statement for each thread MUST read like this (Fraudulently alleged Sobibor “grave” # 4 / 42 will be used as an example, as can be seen in this webpage here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1 ):



* EXAMPLE FOR FRAUDULENTLY ALLEGED “HUGE MASS GRAVE # 4 / 42:



The following information is being presented as proof that alleged Sobibor grave # 4 / 42 contains the remains of at least 19 bodies, in accordance with The National Association of Forensic Historians TM grave numbering system, as can be seen in this webpage here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1



NOTE: There MUST NOT be anything appearing before the opening statement and a WORKING link MUST be provided.



Closing statement:

Each closing statement for each thread MUST read like this (Fraudulently alleged Sobibor “grave” # 4 / 42 will be used as an example, as can be seen in this webpage here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1 ):



* EXAMPLE FOR FRAUDULENTLY ALLEGED “HUGE MASS GRAVE # 4 / 42:



The preceding information was presented as proof that alleged Sobibor grave # 4 / 42 contains the remains of at least 19 bodies in my attempt to lay claim to The National Association of Forensic Historians TM N.A.F.H. Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM $1,000.00 reward for said grave. Michael Shermer now has 60 days from today (insert posting date here) to explicitly and legally certify that he endorses said posted proof. Michael Shermer can explicitly and legally endorse said posted proof by contacting, via email, Greg Gerdes, president of The National Association of Forensic Historians TM, (Contact information can be found at the bottom of their website here: http://www.nafcash.com ) and making the following statement to Greg Gerdes:

I, Michael Shermer, acting as sole appointed arbiter of The National Association of Forensic Historians TM N.A.F.H. Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM, in accordance with skeptical standards, do hereby explicitly and legally certify that I categorically endorse the information in - POSTER’S NAME - Proof that alleged Sobibor grave # 4 / 42 contains the remains of at least 19 bodies - thread, as meeting my own, skeptic magazine’s and the skeptics society’s standards of proof, and that - Sobibor grave # 4 / 42 - does in fact contain the remains of at least 19 bodies.

(Note: What is to be judged and certified by Shermer is all information that is sandwiched between my opening and closing statements.)



NOTE: Once you make your initial post, it CAN NOT be edited and you MUST make a copy and email it to the N.A.F.H. immediately after posting.



Again, failure to comply with the posting rules TO THE LETTER will automatically disqualify any thread from consideration of entitlement to any reward money.



* Additional information: If all the information that you want to post doesn’t fit into one single thread post, then that is ok. You can use more than one post as long as all the information that is posted is done at the same time and the opening and closing statements sandwich your initial posted information. (FYI - links are allowed.)



Greg Gerdes

President

The National Association of Forensic Historians

http://www.nafcash.com/

The vilest form of self-abasement is the subordination of your responsibility to reason to the minds of others.

A true measure of a man's charater is his willingnes to speak the turth - even at the expense of his reputaion.

A hallmark of self-deceiving cowards is their acceptance of authority as their truth, rather than the truth as their authority.



--- On Sun, 2/27/11, Guadalupe Salcedo <[email protected]> wrote:


From: Guadalupe Salcedo <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: NAFH Challenge Rules
To: "Greg Gerdes" <[email protected]>
Date: Sunday, February 27, 2011, 2:53 PM

You know what, Greg?

Fuck you.

Submission of evidence shall be made as stated in my VNN post 2433
http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...postcount=2433

Take it of leave it, chickenshit. I couldn't care less

[Roberto Muehlenkamp]

A PS regarding the thread title:

Fw: NAFH Challenge Rules
...
From:
Guadalupe Salcedo <[email protected]>
...
View Contact
To: Greg Gerdes <[email protected]>
PS: The thread titles will be as follows:

«Proof that “alleged [camp name] # [x] / 42" contains the remains of at least 19 bodies»

Should read «Proof that “alleged [camp name] grave # [x] / 42" contains the remains of at least 19 bodies», of course. But even Gerdes' chimp-brain will undestand that.

[Roberto Muehlenkamp]

Submission of proof regarding Bełżec mass grave numbered "3" in Prof. Andrzej Kola’s archaeological report Bełżec: the Nazi Camp for Jews in Light of Archaeological Sources: Excavations 1997-1999 ("alleged Bełżec grave # 3/3", in NAFH parlance):

Proof that “alleged Bełżec grave # 3/3” contains the remains

The period "of at least 19 bodies" didn't fit into the title space, big deal.

All other submission threads will follow this pattern (except that I will not repeat the whole of part 2 every time but make a link to the first thread for sections 2.1, 2.2 and 2.3), no matter how loudly and hysterically Gerdes squeaks.

If Gerdes wants to use my wording and/or procedure as a cowardly pretext to deny reward payment, that's OK with me.

Now continue cussing and fussing like scared fishwives, ye sockpuppets of Gerdes the chicken. I'll enjoy the show.

[Bill Wassner]

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopi...2d007faa56a5ae


Looks like Nancy boy chickened out because It knew It didn't have a leg to stand on. However, It still seems It can't read the simplest rules.


Hey Nancy boy, what do the words:

The following rules MUST be complied with TO THE LETTER.

mean to you anyway?


Opening statement:

Each opening statement for each thread MUST read like this (I will use fraudulently alleged Sobibor “grave” # 4 / 42 as an example, as can be seen in this forum thread here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1 ):

* EXAMPLE FOR FRAUDULENTLY ALLEGED “HUGE MASS GRAVE # 4 / 42:

The following information is being presented as proof that alleged Sobibor grave # 4 / 42 contains the remains of at least 19 bodies, in accordance with The National Association of Forensic Historians TM grave numbering system found in this link here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1

There MUST NOT be anything appearing before the opening statement and a WORKING link MUST be provided.


Closing statement:

Each closing statement for each thread MUST read like this (I will use fraudulently alleged Sobibor “grave” # 4 / 42 as an example, as can be seen in this forum thread here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1 ):

* EXAMPLE FOR FRAUDULENTLY ALLEGED “HUGE MASS GRAVE # 4 / 42:

The preceding information was presented as proof that alleged Sobibor grave # 4 / 42 contains the remains of at least 19 bodies in my attempt to lay claim to The National Association of Forensic Historians TM N.A.F.H. Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM $1,000.00 reward for said grave. Michael Shermer now has 60 days from today (insert today’s date here) to explicitly and legally certify that he endorses said posted proof. Michael Shermer can explicitly and legally endorse said posted proof by contacting, via email, Greg Gerdes, president of The National Association of Forensic Historians TM, (Contact information can be found at the bottom of their website here: http://www.nafcash.com ) and making the following statement to Greg Gerdes:

I, Michael Shermer, acting as sole appointed arbiter of The National Association of Forensic Historians TM N.A.F.H. Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM, in accordance with skeptical standards, do hereby explicitly and legally certify that I categorically endorse the information in - POSTER’S NAME AND THREAD TITLE – as meeting my own, skeptic magazine’s and the skeptics society’s standards of proof, that – CAMP / GRAVE NUMBER – does in fact contain the remains of at least 19 bodies.

(Note: What is to be judged and certified by Shermer is all information that is sandwiched between the opening and the closing statements in this thread.)




Looks like Nancy boy has shot Itself in foot again.


No use even starting a countdown if the post isn't even going to count.

[Roberto Muehlenkamp]

Must read like this, must read like that, must blah, blah, blah.

Once again, Greg: stick your chickenshit "rules" (which you established after I had agreed to the rules posted on the NAFH site, because you were scared shitless and tried to limit the possibility of successful reward claims by imposing a submission wording with the imbecilic "fraudulently alleged" BS, which you know well will never be endorsed by Shermer) up you yellow ass.

And the money too (assuming you have it), if you want to refuse reward payment on account of my having refused to accept your chickenshit "rules", as becomes a compulsive liar and whimpering coward like you.

As I said before, continue cussing and fussing like scared fishwives, ye sockpuppets of Gerdes the chicken.

Keep on showing how scared you are of what is being posted on the Skeptics Society Forum.

I'm enjoying the show.

[Lagergeld]

I can't help but cackle here how this is one of the few places on the internet that would allow a holocaust debate. All of the mainstream "enlightened" places won't touch it with a 10-foot pole, even while they extol the merits of free expression...

[Roberto Muehlenkamp]

Originally Posted by Lagergeld

I can't help but cackle here how this is one of the few places on the internet that would allow a holocaust debate. All of the mainstream "enlightened" places won't touch it with a 10-foot pole, even while they extol the merits of free expression...

Here you find open debate. The worst that can happen to you if you write to much crap is being sent for a while (or in extreme cases permanently) to the "Siberian Exile" section, which is the equivalent of this forum's "Tard Corral" that Greg Gerdes has been confined to.

Here you find very restrictingly moderated debate (to put it very politely, as every post the moderator doesn't feel comfortable with gets deleted and inconvenient posters like me tend to soon get banned).

Now guess which of the two is a "Revisionist" forum.

[Roberto Muehlenkamp]

Originally Posted by One of Gerdes' sockpuppets, don't care which

14 proofs in strict compliance with the NAFH rules by March 5th?

I call bullshit.

10 proof posts are already online, in compliance with these NAFH rules that I accepted:

$1,000.00 will be awarded for each one of the 54 fraudulently alleged “huge mass graves” that are proven to contain the remains of - at least 19 bodies. To begin the incredibly easy, two-part process of laying claim to the reward: First - a claimant must post their alleged “proof” that each fraudulently alleged “huge mass grave” contains at least 19 bodies on - SHERMER'S OWN FORUM. (Note: Each fraudulently alleged “huge mass grave” must have its own individual thread.) Second - the posted “proof” must then be categorically endorsed by Michael Shermer, explicitly stating that said posted “proof” meets his own, “skeptic” magazine’s and the “skeptics” society’s so-called standards of proof. (I.e. - Shermer, in accordance with “skeptical standards,” has been appointed sole arbiter of what will be accepted as proof.)

(as opposed to the crap that Gerdes the chicken sent me later in his panic, which I nevertheless accommodated as far as acceptable)

These are the threads:

Proof that “alleged Bełżec grave # 3/3” contains the remains

Proof that “alleged Bełżec grave # 13/13” contains the rem.

Proof that “alleged Bełżec grave # 20/20” contains the rem.

Proof that “alleged Bełżec grave # 25/25” contains the rem.

Proof that “alleged Bełżec grave # 27/27” contains the rem.

Proof that “alleged Bełżec grave # 32/32” contains the rem.

Proof that “alleged Bełżec grave # 1/1” contains the remains

Proof that “alleged Bełżec grave # 4/4” contains the remains

Proof that “alleged Bełżec grave # 10/10” contains the rem.

Proof that “alleged Bełżec grave # 28/28” contains the rem.

No, I didn't fully comply with the belated "rules" that Gerdes sent me by e-mail in his panicky fear.

I refused to idiotically refer to the mass graves as "alleged" let alone "fraudulently alleged", I put the name of Gerdes' fraudulent "association" and its "challenge" into quote marks, I didn't set Shermer a deadline but merely requested him to respond within 60 days, I left it up to him whether he wanted to contact Gerdes directly or state the endorsement in another way, and I gave him the endorsement wording as a suggestion and not as something mandatory.

I did this because, elementary considerations of self-respect aside, I want Mr. Shermer to seriously consider endorsing my proof and not just tell me to fuck off, as he certainly would had I followed Gerdes cowardly "rules", especially as concerns the "alleged" and "fraudulently alleged" crap (he may tell me to fuck off anyway, but now at least I have a chance). The hope that Shermer would just tell me to fuck off was, of course, the reason why panic-stricken Gerdes dreamed up his belated "rules".

Now, of course, Gerdes (alternately as "Anders", "Bill Wassner", "Brian Laine" and what other sockpuppets he may create) is going to make a big fuss about my not having followed his cowardly "rules" and thus not being entitled to the money even if Shermer should endorse my proof, as becomes the characterless fishwife presiding over the Non-existing Association of Frauds and Hoaxers.

And I couldn't care less. I did the right thing, as always.

10 done, 4 to go. 5 March you say? Piece of cake.

[Bill Wassner]

One of the very simple rules that Retardo has refused to follow to the letter:

The following rules MUST be complied with TO THE LETTER... There MUST NOT be anything appearing before the opening statement...

Retardo:

Forget it. I don't give a fuck... you can stick that money up your ass... Gerdes will be free to invoke non-compliance... No money then? OK, so be it. I couldn't care less... My submission didn't comply with any of the "posting rules" that Gerdes sent me... If Gerdes wants to use my wording and/or procedure as a pretext to deny reward payment, that's OK with me... No, I didn't fully comply with the rules that Gerdes sent me... of course, Gerdes is going to make a big fuss about my not having followed his rules and thus not being entitled to the money even if Shermer should endorse my proof. And I couldn't care less... I... hope that Shermer would just tell me to fuck off...

Posting something before the opening statement and thus disqualifying yourself from consideration of the reward money is doing "the right thing?"

The only person I can see making a fuss is Retardo. I know a few people who are laughing up their sleeves at how Retardo is shooting Itself in the foot.

What an incredible retard.


Retardo:

I'm enjoying the show.

I most certainly hope so since you are the show.


Retardo:

Of course I’m going to post in strict compliance with the NAFH rules, one thread for each grave and whatever else the rules require.

Anders:

I call bullshit.

You're right again Anders.


"Proof" posted by Retardo on Shermers forum on Feb.28th (which makes today - day 59):


http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=15292

The preceding information was presented as proof that the mass grave numbered "3" in Prof. Andrzej Kola's aforementioned archaeological report (exhibit 2.2.2.11) contains the remains of at least 19 bodies...

Has Shermer sent Gerdes an email endorsing your "proof" yet Retardo?

A simple "YES" or "NO" will do, thanks.

YES or NO, Retardo?

[John Connor]

'Sup Roberto, I'm familiar with your material from holocaust controversies. have you gotten around to watching all the videos at www.holocaustdenialvideos.com yet? Anyway how do you feel about this? I just sort of cooked it up.

(http://health.howstuffworks.com/dise...cremation1.htm)

"An average human body takes from two to three hours to burn completely and will produce an average of 3 to 9 pounds (1.4 to 4.1 kilograms) of ash." - "Industrial cremators can run anywhere from $80,000 for a basic, entry-level model to $250,000 for the latest models. The modern-day incinerators are usually automated or computerized and can be programmed to adjust the temperature as needed.They burn natural gas, propane or diesel instead of the coke and coal that fueled retorts as late as the 1960s, allowing for more efficient and hotter burning while leaving little odor or smoke."

(http://en.auschwitz.org.pl/h/index.p...1&limitstart=2)

"the crematoria could burn 4,416 corpses per day—1,440 each in crematoria II and III, and 768 each in crematoria IV and V. This meant that the crematoria could burn over 1.6 million corpses per year. Prisoners assigned to do the burning stated that the daily capacity of the four crematoria in Birkenau was higher—about 8 thousand corpses."

It's important to note that Auschwitz, a huge camp that registered nearly half a million people at one point had 52 crematory ovens in all of Auschwitz and the sub camps combined that were all fueled by coal. Holocaust scholars claim the ovens were special in some way that made it so that the ovens could easily burn 10 times the amount of mass (20 if, according to the "eyewitnesses" they were really busting their ass that day) in well over 4 times the speed. 4416 corpses in 52 ovens is 85 bodies in a 24 hour period for each oven, or about 4 corpses an hour or 1 every 15 minutes regardless of mass (i.e. 10 theoretical bodies to an oven = 150 minutes)

How was this accomplished, and why are many modern cremation facilities willing to pay for an oven that costs as much or more than an average american home that takes 4 times as long to burn 1 body than it supposedly took an over half century old german model to burn 10?

[Anders]

YET ANOTHER LIE from Roberto Muehlenkamp


Roberta:

I refused to idiotically refer to the mass graves as "alleged" let alone "fraudulently alleged"... I did this because, elementary considerations of self-respect aside, I want Mr. Shermer to seriously consider endorsing my proof and not just tell me to fuck off, as he certainly would had I followed Gerdes cowardly "rules", especially as concerns the "alleged" and "fraudulently alleged" crap (he may tell me to fuck off anyway...

Let's see if the word "fraudulently" is required by the official posting rules to be used in the posters text (Rules that Roberta was aware of and read before she posted on Shermers forum.)

The National Association of Forensic Historians TM



OFFICIAL POSTING RULES



The following posting rules MUST be complied with TO THE LETTER.



* Please pay attention to the bolded print as that is what MUST be included in your posts. *



You MUST post using your real / legal name.



Thread Titles:

Each thread title for each fraudulently alleged “huge mass grave” MUST read like this (Fraudulently alleged Sobibor “grave” # 4 / 42 will be used as an example, as can be seen in this web page here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1 ):



* EXAMPLE FOR FRAUDULENTLY ALLEGED “HUGE MASS GRAVE # 4 / 42:



Proof that alleged Sobibor grave # 4 / 42 contains the remains of at least 19 bodies


NOTE: All posted information MUST coincide with the grave numbering system used by the N.A.F.H. as can be seen in this webpage here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1



Any posted information that obfuscates which fraudulently alleged “huge mass grave” is in question will automatically disqualify said posted information / thread from consideration of entitlement to any reward money. Any questions about which fraudulently alleged “huge mass grave” the N.A.F.H. is referring to MUST be clarified BEFORE a thread is started.



Opening statement:

Each opening statement for each thread MUST read like this (Fraudulently alleged Sobibor “grave” # 4 / 42 will be used as an example, as can be seen in this webpage here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1 ):



* EXAMPLE FOR FRAUDULENTLY ALLEGED “HUGE MASS GRAVE # 4 / 42:



The following information is being presented as proof that alleged Sobibor grave # 4 / 42 contains the remains of at least 19 bodies, in accordance with The National Association of Forensic Historians TM grave numbering system, as can be seen in this webpage here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1



NOTE: There MUST NOT be anything appearing before the opening statement and a WORKING link MUST be provided.



Closing statement:

Each closing statement for each thread MUST read like this (Fraudulently alleged Sobibor “grave” # 4 / 42 will be used as an example, as can be seen in this webpage here: http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...797&postcount1 ):



* EXAMPLE FOR FRAUDULENTLY ALLEGED “HUGE MASS GRAVE # 4 / 42:



The preceding information was presented as proof that alleged Sobibor grave # 4 / 42 contains the remains of at least 19 bodies in my attempt to lay claim to The National Association of Forensic Historians TM N.A.F.H. Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM $1,000.00 reward for said grave. Michael Shermer now has 60 days from today (insert posting date here) to explicitly and legally certify that he endorses said posted proof. Michael Shermer can explicitly and legally endorse said posted proof by contacting, via email, Greg Gerdes, president of The National Association of Forensic Historians TM, (Contact information can be found at the bottom of their website here: http://www.nafcash.com ) and making the following statement to Greg Gerdes:

I, Michael Shermer, acting as sole appointed arbiter of The National Association of Forensic Historians TM N.A.F.H. Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM, in accordance with skeptical standards, do hereby explicitly and legally certify that I categorically endorse the information in - POSTER’S NAME - Proof that alleged Sobibor grave # 4 / 42 contains the remains of at least 19 bodies - thread, as meeting my own, skeptic magazine’s and the skeptics society’s standards of proof, and that - Sobibor grave # 4 / 42 - does in fact contain the remains of at least 19 bodies.

(Note: What is to be judged and certified by Shermer is all information that is sandwiched between my opening and closing statements.)


NOTE: Once you make your initial post, it CAN NOT be edited and you MUST make a copy and email it to the N.A.F.H. immediately after posting.



Again, failure to comply with the posting rules TO THE LETTER will automatically disqualify any thread from consideration of entitlement to any reward money.

Roberta

Is the phrase "fraudulently alleged" required by the official posting rules to be included in the posters text?

A simple "YES" or "NO" will do, thanks.

YES or NO, Roberta?


Roberta

Were you made aware of and did you read the official posting rules prior to posting on Shermers forum?

A simple "YES" or "NO" will do, thanks.

YES or NO, Roberta?

[Roberto Muehlenkamp]

Originally Posted by John Connor

'Sup Roberto, I'm familiar with your material from holocaust controversies. have you gotten around to watching all the videos at www.holocaustdenialvideos.com yet? Anyway how do you feel about this? I just sort of cooked it up.

(http://health.howstuffworks.com/dise...cremation1.htm)

"An average human body takes from two to three hours to burn completely and will produce an average of 3 to 9 pounds (1.4 to 4.1 kilograms) of ash." - "Industrial cremators can run anywhere from $80,000 for a basic, entry-level model to $250,000 for the latest models. The modern-day incinerators are usually automated or computerized and can be programmed to adjust the temperature as needed.They burn natural gas, propane or diesel instead of the coke and coal that fueled retorts as late as the 1960s, allowing for more efficient and hotter burning while leaving little odor or smoke."

(http://en.auschwitz.org.pl/h/index.p...1&limitstart=2)

"the crematoria could burn 4,416 corpses per day—1,440 each in crematoria II and III, and 768 each in crematoria IV and V. This meant that the crematoria could burn over 1.6 million corpses per year. Prisoners assigned to do the burning stated that the daily capacity of the four crematoria in Birkenau was higher—about 8 thousand corpses."

It's important to note that Auschwitz, a huge camp that registered nearly half a million people at one point had 52 crematory ovens in all of Auschwitz and the sub camps combined that were all fueled by coal. Holocaust scholars claim the ovens were special in some way that made it so that the ovens could easily burn 10 times the amount of mass (20 if, according to the "eyewitnesses" they were really busting their ass that day) in well over 4 times the speed. 4416 corpses in 52 ovens is 85 bodies in a 24 hour period for each oven, or about 4 corpses an hour or 1 every 15 minutes regardless of mass (i.e. 10 theoretical bodies to an oven = 150 minutes)

How was this accomplished, and why are many modern cremation facilities willing to pay for an oven that costs as much or more than an average american home that takes 4 times as long to burn 1 body than it supposedly took an over half century old german model to burn 10?

John,

While this is not about Auschwitz-Birkenau and AB is also not my specialty, I shall briefly respond to your message.

First of all, I assume that the crematoria you mention burn the bodies to small fragments that can be easily reduced to what is called ashes in a cremulator. The SS at AB didn't have to burn bodies this fine, but could take remains out of the oven's ash bin as soon as they were small enough to be further crushed with mortars, pestles or hammers. They would not be as easy to crush as the remains coming out of a modern crematorium, but there was no lack of labor force for the crushing and the saving in burning time was surely worth the effort. At a conference of the British cremation society quoted here, a participant stated the following:

After about half an hour, whether the furnace has gotten up to a temperature of 1100°C or whether it is 900°C, there is a rapid fall away, and I think the investigations should be concerned with the last twenty minutes or so of the cremation cycle. At that time you have in the cremator a very small quantity of body material...roughly the size of a rugby football, about twenty minutes from the end of the cremation, and this is the thing which is most difficult to remove.

IoW a considerable part of the burning time is spent reducing a relatively small part of body material ("roughly the size of a rugby football"), which the SS could well remove and crush as soon as it had fallen through the grates into the ash bin instead of waiting for it to be reduced to ashes in the oven. Even larger remains could be removed at an earlier stage for crushing.

Second, burning times are calculated considering a given load, which according to Pressac is 70 to 100 kg. 70 to 100 kg could be the weight of one adult man, or of an adult woman and two children, or of more than three children - mind that those cremated in these ovens were mostly women, children and old folks selected because they were not able to work, while adult males became part of the camp's workforce unless they were too sick or weak. So in the time your oven takes to reduce one body to fine cremation remains (or in the one hour mentioned by the above-quoted participant in the BCS conference), a Birkenau muffle could reduce two, three or more corpses to fine cremation remains. As the SS didn't wait until the corpses had been reduced to fine remains (see above), the number of corpses that could be "processed" within a certain period of time was even higher.

That said, I don't think they ever burned 8,000 corpses per day in the ovens. Eyewitnesses aren't usually good at figures, as every trial judge will tell you, and the observation capacity of people undergoing traumatic experiences is if anything worse than that of eyewitnesses under normal conditions. The 4,416 corpses per day are mentioned in an SS document, but the guys are likely to have overstated their achievements to please their superiors. According to Pressac the Birkenau ovens never managed more than 3,000 corpses within 24 hours, IIRC. More was not necessary during "normal" times, and at times of peak arrivals a large part of the bodies could be and was burned in open-air cremation pits.

However many corpses per day or per year the Birkenau ovens were capable of "processing", they of course never "processed" more people than were deported to AB. According to latest finds of historical research (mentioned here), the total number of people killed at AB was 1 million, of which about 900,000 were Jews. I'd say that half of these at most were burned in the cremation ovens.

I have written about the ovens a long time ago on the RODOH forum, see my post of 5-Oct-2006 11:04. Feel free to give me your opinion about this, here or on RODOH.

As to denierbud's videos, if you're familiar with HC material you must have read our debunking of the "One Third of the Holocaust" series and some other stuff. If not, please follow this link.

[Roberto Muehlenkamp]

Meanwhile the sockpuppets "Anders" and "Bill Wassner" of self-projecting coward and liar Greg Gerdes continue squirming for my amusement, as I predicted.

The best thing Greg can manage is to make a fuss about the term "fraudulently" not having been included in the desired submittal text, contrary to what one might understand from what I wrote. If so, I must have mixed it up with the "fraudulently" used in Gerdes' instructions, which are not exactly easy to tell from the desired wording quotes. Big fucking deal. The "alleged" would be enough for Shermer to call me nuts, with or without the "fraudulently" (which, incidentally, also shows up several times in the post I was required to link to).

"Yet another" lie, as if you had ever caught me lying? That's another of the lies I've caught you in, chimp. And I'm glad to see you put on the self-projecting "yet another lie" - record again. That's what bitching fish-wives do when they're at the end of their rope.

Is that your best shot, Greg?

Pathetic. Truly pathetic.

[Bill Wassner]

Anders:

YET ANOTHER LIE from Roberto Muehlenkamp

Roberta:

I refused to idiotically refer to the mass graves as "alleged" let alone "fraudulently alleged"... I did this because, elementary considerations of self-respect aside, I want Mr. Shermer to seriously consider endorsing my proof and not just tell me to fuck off, as he certainly would had I followed Gerdes "rules", especially as concerns the "alleged" and "fraudulently alleged" crap (he may tell me to fuck off anyway...

Retardo:

The best thing Anders can manage is to make a fuss about the term "fraudulently" not having been included in the desired submittal text... Big fucking deal...

as if you had ever caught me lying? That's another of the lies I've caught you in

So Retardo gets caught telling the lie that It was required to use the phrase - fraudulently alleged:

Retardo: I refused to idiotically refer to the mass graves as "alleged" let alone "fraudulently alleged"... I did this because, elementary considerations of self-respect aside, I want Mr. Shermer to seriously consider endorsing my proof and not just tell me to fuck off, as he certainly would had I followed Gerdes rules, especially as concerns the "alleged" and "fraudulently alleged" crap (he may tell me to fuck off anyway...

Then It admitted that It lied about being required to use the phrase - fraudulently alleged:

Retardo: The best thing Anders can manage is to make a fuss about the term "fraudulently" not having been included in the desired submittal text... Big fucking deal.

Then it lied about being caught lying:

Retardo: "Yet another" lie, as if you had ever caught me lying?

Then It told yet another lie:

Retardo: That's another of the lies I've caught you in.

But that's not all. It also told yet another lie, by saying:

Retardo: I refused to idiotically refer to the mass graves as "alleged"

But how did Retardo refer to the graves in Its posts?

Proof that “alleged Bełżec grave # 28/28” contains the rem.

So Its two major pretexts for not complying with the rules were total bullshit as one of the pretexts It was not required to do and the other which It said it would / did refuse to do It did in fact do.

But that’s not all. There was another pretext that It used to not comply with the rules:

Retardo: Mr. Shermer will accept no deadlines.

But what does It ask Shermer to do in Its posts?:

Retardo: Michael Shermer is requested to, within 60 days from today, 1 March 2011, explicitly and legally certify that he endorses said posted proof.

So again, of Its three pretexts that It used for noncompliance of the rules one was a total lie and the other two it attempted to comply with, though most certainly not with to the letter.

What a fucking retard.

It was as if It didn't want to be eligible for the reward money.

[Bill Wassner]

Retardo:

Of course I’m going to post in strict compliance with the NAFH rules, one thread for each grave and whatever else the rules require.

Anders:

I call bullshit.

You're right again Anders.


"Proof" posted by Retardo on Shermers forum on Feb.28th (which makes today - day 58):


http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=15292

The preceding information was presented as proof that the mass grave numbered "3" in Prof. Andrzej Kola's aforementioned archaeological report (exhibit 2.2.2.11) contains the remains of at least 19 bodies...

Has Shermer sent Gerdes an email endorsing your "proof" yet Retardo?

A simple "YES" or "NO" will do, thanks.

YES or NO, Retardo?