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Old June 24th, 2008 #201
Greg Gerdes
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Please notice that Roberta didn't present the same 12 photos in her last round of drivel as was presented in my previous recap.

So Roberta, please tell us what we are looking at in the SAME 12 photos allegedly from Treblinka that you see in my last post. They are all numbered, so present your explanations for those 12 photos ONLY and in the order that you see them in - 1 -12.

How hard should that be Roberta? (No wonder Roberta is called the dullest of the dull.)
 
Old June 24th, 2008 #202
Greg Gerdes
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Robert:

"Then how did they manage to burn to ash, by the same method (even with the disadvantage that they had less room under the grid for placing flammable substances there than they had at the AR camps) the 6,865 victims of the Dresden bombing on 13/14 February 1945 that were burned to ashes on the Altmarkt, according to the sources quoted in my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...rather_18.html ?

There’s even a photo showing ashes in front of the burning grid at Dresden:"

That photo, for those who don't have their magic glasses on, shows a pile of crushed BONE, interspersed with ash. A blind man can see the bones.

"Burnt to ashes" is the lie that Roberta has to cling to to keep her fantasy alive in her mentally ill / retarded head.

Roberta:

"Ah, and even if you were right about the bones"

"Even if I were right?" LOL!!! Even if you crush bone into very small pieces, it's still bone, not ash. Prove the existence of one pound of crushed bone or one single tooth that was found at Belzec Roberta. Please notice that Godzieszewski nor the coroner never once mentioned crushed bone, or the presence of a single tooth. (Out of an alleged 18 -24 million!)

And of course the answer lies in the alleged "huge mass graves" themselves. All Roberta has to do to prove that the remains of 600,000 to 800,000 jews are buried in Belzec, is to show us the alleged "huge mass graves."

Better yet Roberta, how about you just proving the existence of the largest of all the alleged "huge mass graves" of Belzec? Can you prove that grave #10, the grave that allegedly contains 10 % of the total volume of the alleged "huge mass graves" exists? I'll address that in my next post.

And Roberta's claim / photos allegedly "proving" that a body can be "incinerated" and not have it's hair burnt off is so laughable that I don't even know what to say other than - just what part of "incineration" do you not understand Roberta? How can a cremation process that is worthy of its name not be burn the hair of the cremated individual?
 
Old June 24th, 2008 #203
Greg Gerdes
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OK Roberta, let's try and keep things as simple as possible so others can follow along with what exactly it is you're going to attemt to show us here.


What I want you to present of course is the physical evidence that you have for the "huge mass graves" of Belzec allegedly found by the three "investigations" that I have listed. But I think we can simplify the issue even more. As you know, kola / O'Neil list "33 huge mass graves" allegedly located at Belzec, so rather than talk about all three investigations or all 33 of kolas alleged graves, let's just talk about one - the largest of all the alleged 33. After all, if you can't prove the existence of the largest of the alleged "33 huge mass graves," you certainly can't prove the existence of all 33 of them - correct?

So, to start, let's agree on what is the largest of the alleged "33 huge mass graves." Now by "largest" I mean the grave that allegedly contains the most bodies / remains. So it doesn't necessarily have to be the largest in square meter volume, but it most likely is.

The typical listing of the "33 huge mass graves" that I'm aware of has #10 listed as the largest of all the alleged "huge mass graves" and lists its square meter volume as being - 2,100 m3.

Do you agree with this Roberta?

Would you also say that this 2,100 m3 mass grave holds the largest number of alleged human remains, both cremated / crushed remains and corpses in a "wax-fat transformation?"

And if you agree with that also, then would you please tell us what the total estimated number of human remains are claimed to allegedly be in said grave?

OK Roberta, again, what grave holds the largest number of alleged human remains - what # has been given to that grave? What is the volume in m3 of said grave and what is the total number of alleged remains in said grave.

Pretty simple, huh? I'm guessing that your answer will be:

Grave # 10,- 2,100 m3,- ??? # of remains.
 
Old June 24th, 2008 #204
Greg Gerdes
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BTW Roberta, I did miss another Treblinka photo. Call this one #13:

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp35.jpg
 
Old June 25th, 2008 #205
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EG
Herr Gerdes - I am leaving this thread to you and the faggot Roberta –
Wow, that’s a classy lady we have here. Last time I remember having indulged in this kind of insults (calling someone a faggot or by the female version of his name) was in grade school. But let’s give the girl a break, she’s probably sore about my having pointed out that she’s a bore, even though her looks are not so bad (but the babe in PS’ avatar definitely looks more interesting).

Quote:
Originally Posted by EG
however, little Bobby Mule and I had a rather lengthy discussion about cremation, both modern, and as he alleges, by the foto below.
Don’t remember that one, but maybe it’s recorded on my RODOH thread under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/174...ite-Pride.html . Have a look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EG
Also, he knows NOTHING about how modern cremation is handled - the suggestion of "piety" is b.s as basis for the different "style" of cremation
Thanks for acknowledging that modern cremation (as described, for instance, under http://www.cremate-me.net/process.php ) is something different than burning a corpse on an open fire (as described, for instance, under http://www.cremate-me.net/open.php ). Whether piety is the reason for the difference is a secondary matter; I assumed it is but if you can provide a better reason that’s fine with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EG
Also, back on SF, on the deleted H thread - I had provided extensive evidence re tossing bodies into pits and setting them afire - It's not so simple as little Bobby M would suggest –
Where did I say anything about tossing bodies into pits and setting them afire? At the AR camps bodies were burned on grates, and the grates were either inside a pit or over a pit containing the flammable substances used to light the fire. Read my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...rather_18.html .

Quote:
Originally Posted by EG
for instance, India was near de-forested because one cremation takes up so much wood; until the government stepped in, however it's still a problem - checking for evidence of extensive and heavily de-forested areas around the burn sites Bobby is trying to claim is also necessary.
Should the Indians turn to mass-burning their dead the way diseased cattle has been burned in Great Britain and other countries, they may save a lot of wood. Especially if they use the grate-burning method that Mattogno’s source engineer Heepke considered the most efficient and was apparently further perfected by SS-officer Floss at the AR camps. That method was also successfully applied when they burned 6,865 dead bodies on the Altmarkt after the bombing on 13/14 February 1945. But I don’t think efficiency considerations alone will make the Indians change their funeral habits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EG
Now, I'll butt out Herr Gerdes and let you continue this excellent debate of yours.
If EG considers Gerdes’ boring, repetitive and unimaginative "show me photos" – stance an "excellent debate", she must be very easy to impress. Just tell her what she likes to hear, however idiotic it may be, and she’ll melt away.
 
Old June 25th, 2008 #206
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
OK, first things first, we need to do an updated recap.
Another of Gerdes’ pointless recaps? Strictly for the birds. The only recap worth reading as concerns Treblinka is in my post # 172 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=172 . I’ll do similar recaps for Chelmno, Belzec and Sobibor when I have time, and furthermore a list of all evidence and arguments that Gerdes has ignored and all questions the cowardly prick has run away from. It should be a long list.

But for now, on to another of Gerdes’ repetitive "photos only" recaps (he seems to seriously expect people to accept that physical evidence is the only evidence that matters and photographic records are the only relevant records of that evidence) and more of Gerdes’ equally boring "we’re still waiting" yells for further photographs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The following is all the ALLEGED photographic documentation of the physical evidence for the alleged murder of 2,040,000 jews at the alleged industrial killing centers of Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka:
Poor Gerdes seems to be so scared of a couple of photographs – which really don’t show much due to the limitations inherent to the medium of photography – that he calls in question their authenticity, even hysterically capitalizing the term "alleged". Evidence other than photographs he’s even more afraid of; he doesn’t even dare to address it.

What we have seen is not the photographic documentation of the physical evidence, by the way. It is just the photographic documentation that currently happens to be available online, unless I missed something. Gerdes seems to believe that what is not on the internet does not exist.

And the number of Jews killed at Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka was more like 1,480,000 than 2,040,000, as I have also pointed out several times. But then, bigger numbers make better straw-men, don’t they, Gerdes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Sobibor recap:

The following is all the photographic documentation there is for the existence of the alleged “pure extermination center” of Sobibor, which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), 250,000 jews were killed:

http://www.deathcamps.org/sobibor/photos.html
A photographic documentation I didn’t even include in my record of evidence, as far as I can remember. But then, Gerdes has plainly shown that he feels uncomfortable discussing the evidence his opponent actually provided and the arguments his opponent actually made, which is why he keeps trying to pin straw-men unto his opponent. What a lying piece of shit.

The following photographs of Sobibor I have included in my record as illustrations of the physical evidence:

1. (Articial) teeth
http://www.undersobibor.org/excavation09.jpg

2. A mound of the ashes of victims of the Sobibor extermination camp, at the remembrance site on the grounds of the camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5938_1_web.jpg

3. A mound of the remains of victims of the Sobibor extermination camp, at the remembrance site on the grounds of the camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5964_1_web.jpg

4. A glass display case containing ashes and bones of victims of the Sobibor extermination camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5968_1_web.jpg

5. Hair, bones and ashes found on the grounds of the Sobibor extermination camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...6238_1_web.jpg

6 Hair, bones and ashes in the area of the Sobibor extermination camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...6239_1_web.jpg

Captions are not mine but from the sources featuring these photos, i.e. the Sobibor Archeological Project ( http://www.undersobibor.org/ ) for photo # 1 and the Archives of the Ghetto Fighters House ( http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfheng.htm ) for photos 2 to 6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The following is all the photographic documentation there is of the alleged 7 “huge mass graves,” of Sobibor allegedly located by the Kola archeological investigation which he claims to have located - one grave measuring 70 x 25 x 5 meters and six measuring 20 x 25 x 5 meters:

No known photographs of the alleged “huge mass graves” exist.
None that is known to Gerdes and me, that’s all Gerdes can safely claim. And I still have to understand why an archeologist’s public description of his investigation findings should be taken as a mere allegation, and not as evidentiary documentation of the physical evidence described. Of course Gerdes never even tried to explain that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And of course, we’re still waiting for any photographic proof what-so-ever that Michael Shermer so much as stepped foot into the Sobibor camp during his alleged “firsthand” investigation of / research in the Sobibor camp, in which he claims he proved, by “reviewing the physical evidence,” that 250,000 jews were killed there.
Readers may remember how often I pointed out that I don’t claim Shermer conducted such investigation and couldn’t care less if he did. Readers may also remember that I told Gerdes where he could stick his Shermer investigation crap. Yet here the lying creep is again trying to saddle me with a claim I didn’t make. Guess I’ll start counting the repetitions of his Shermer straw-man from now on.

One thing I’d like to see, though, is the number of the page in Denying History where Shermer supposedly claimed to have conducted a firsthand investigation of/research in the Sobibor camp and namely reviewed the physical evidence that a certain number of Jews were killed there. Not because I care about what Shermer did or not, but because my friend Gerdes seems to be putting words in this author’s mouth, one of his favorite tricks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Chelmno recap:

The following is all the photographic documentation there is for the existence of the alleged “pure extermination center” of Chelmno, which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), 320,000 jews were killed:

http://www.death-camps.org/occupatio...gchelmnohq.jpg

The following is all the photographic documentation there is of the alleged “huge mass graves,” of Chelmno allegedly located by the Gorczyca archeological investigation. No specific number has been given for the “huge mass graves” allegedly located, but we are told that, in - “a large field of open excavations” there are - “some over a hundred feet long.” (Scroll down to the bottom photo):

http://www.zchor.org/extermination/pits.htm

And:

http://www.thejewishpress.com/Upload.../chelmno-1.gif
Again, just because a photo is not on the internet doesn’t mean it don’t exist, as even dumb-as-a-door photo freak Gerdes should understand.

And I’m still looking forward to Gerdes’ explanation why the following descriptions of the Chelmno physical evidence, quoted in my post # 182 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=182, should be considered mere allegations and not evidentiary documentation of the physical evidence at Chelmno :

1. The quote from Juliet Golden’s article in Archeology magazine that Gerdes stupidly provided in Topix post # 648 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p32#c648 :

Quote:
"Between 1941 and 1945, as many as 300,000 adults and children, mostly Polish jews, were executed and cremated here... People said that the Germans had liquidated all traces of the camp and that nothing was left... There is obviously an emotional dimension to the work at Chelmno that is seldom encountered in archaeology. Small fragments of bone catch the sunlight at the forest site where the crematories once stood. "It's one thing to hear about the crematory, it's another to stand inside an enormous pit that is filled with human bones," says Krzysztof Gorczyca, an archaeologist who directed last summer's excavation. "Only then did it occur to me just how many people were murdered here." ...The research at Chelmno is carried out with the absolute agreement and cooperation of the jewish community... Human remains found during the excavations are interred in a jewish cemetery established in the forest."
2. The following quote, included in my post # 655 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p32#c655 (together with the more important eyewitness and documentary evidence to the Chelmno mass murder, which Gerdes the coward prefers to ignore) from an article under http://www.thejewishpress.com/displa..._Camp&recnum=1 , written by people who were outraged by the perceived desecration of human remains through the excavations at Chelmno and expressed their protest against these excavations:

Quote:
During a cursory search we saw many bone fragments easily visible on the surface of the site.

The museum worker told us that digging had only been stopped due to lack of money, and that the excavations would resume as soon, "as money is made available."

It seemed the man was asking for a donation, thinking that we wanted the work to continue. He was surprised to learn that we were upset about the conditions.

We then went to the forest area, driving along the same route on which the Nazis took their victims.

The forest area also has two sections. One is a beautiful area covered with flowers, with a sign in Polish commemorating the non-Jews who were killed there. In the back is a Jewish monument and a gate leading to the area where the crematoria were and where the remains were dumped into large pits.

The surrounding area is covered with grayish-to-black earth where the ashes were mixed with the earth and after many years are coming to the surface.

What lay before us was a large field of open excavations – some over a hundred feet long. Many of them had protective black plastic sheeting. Some looked old, with grass growing in the pits, but many looked almost brand new. The mayor was in shock and speechless, as were we.

Mielczarek had obviously been lied to by the museum director.

We went from pit to pit, and in some we found easily recognizable human remains such as bone fragments and even a knuckle joint.

The mayor promised to get to the bottom of the situation and get back to us.
Especially as what these sources describe is perfectly in line with what becomes apparent from the physical evidence I entered in my Topix post # 655 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p32#c655. The numbering hereafter follows the numbering of the above-quoted descriptions of the physical evidence, as the following are of course also relevant exhibits of evidence:

3. Letter by Willy Just to Walter Rauff dated 5 June 1942, regarding gas van operations at Chelmno extermination camp:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/194...-spezialwagen/

4. Letter by Gauleiter Arthur Greiser to Himmler dated 1 May 1942, mentioning the “special treatment” of 100,000 Jews from his district about to be completed, and requesting permission to treat 35,000 Poles with open tuberculosis in the same manner:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...r-greiser.html

5. Further documents about the murderous purpose of "Sonderkommando Lange":
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...urpose-of.html

6. Eyewitness testimonies about the use of gas vans at Chelmno: http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/384...ml#reply-38440

7. Excerpt from the judgment at the trial against former members of the Chelmno staff before District Court of Bonn, German Federal Republic, mentioning the documentary evidence used by the court to establish the number of people killed at Chelmno:
http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/384...ml#reply-38440

So here we have 7 exhibits of evidence, or collections/assessments of such exhibits, that lying coward Greg "Photos Only" Gerdes either has unreasonably dismissed as mere allegations (numbers 1 and 2) or not even said a word about because he knows he has nothing to say (numbers 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
BTW Roberta, just how many "huge mass graves" have been discovered at Chelmno?
Try finding the information in the above-quoted descriptions of the physical evidence at Chelmno. If it’s not there, I also don’t know, at least for the time being.

The rest of Gerdes’ posts # 198 and # 200 seems to be copy-and-paste of crap I already replied to in my posts # 181, and as I don’t like to repeat myself (unlike Gerdes, the repetitive bore), I refer our readers to what I wrote in that post. The link is http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=181 .
 
Old June 25th, 2008 #207
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Please notice that Roberta didn't present the same 12 photos in her last round of drivel as was presented in my previous recap.
So Roberta, please tell us what we are looking at in the SAME 12 photos allegedly from Treblinka that you see in my last post. They are all numbered, so present your explanations for those 12 photos ONLY and in the order that you see them in - 1 -12.

How hard should that be Roberta? (No wonder Roberta is called the dullest of the dull.)[/quote]

I’m not here to accommodate Gerdes’ silly requests, therefore didn’t give a fuck about this one either and still don’t. So I’ll just repeat the list included in my post # 195, this time with numbers instead of a), b) c) and so. Gerdes may enjoy himself pointing out the discrepancies between our lists (there must be some, as his list is shorter). Small things worry the minds of small people like Gerdes.

These photos were taken by Jacob Byk/Byck, a member of the investigation commission headed by examining judge Lukaszkiewicz, between 6 and 13 November 1945:

1. Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg

2. Heaps of ashes on the grounds of the Treblinka camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5809_1_web.jpg

These photos look like they were taken with the same camera as the two above, hence by the same photographer:

3. Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5807_1_web.jpg

4. Human skeletal remains in the Treblinka camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5810_1_web.jpg

5. A heap of ashes in the Treblinka camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5814_1_web.jpg

(Photos b) and e) are captioned «TURNED UP EARTH» on the ARC site under http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html )

6. HUMAN REMNANTS AND BELONGINGS #1
The photo was taken in 1945.
http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp41.jpg

7. HUMAN REMNANTS AND BELONGINGS #2
The photo was taken in 1945.
http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp43.jpg

8. HUMAN REMNANTS AND BELONGINGS #3
The photo was taken in 1945.
http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp42.jpg

These photos look like they have not been taken with the same camera, but as they are captioned as having been taken in 1945 (the Soviet investigation was in 1944) it is possible that they are low-quality copies of photos from the aforementioned site Polish investigation, a further indication in this sense being the presence of civilians and not Red Army soldiers on the last photo of this list:

9. DITCH
The photo was taken in 1945. Remnants of wooden posts in the ditch.
http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp46.jpg

10. SW CORNER
The photo was taken in 1945. The ground is covered with broken china and other remnants of diches. Here was the sorting place.
http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp47.jpg

11. HOLES #1
The photo was taken in 1945. Holes and remnants of human bones, unearthed in course of the period when people searched for gold and valuables.
http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp48.jpg

12. HOLES #2
The photo was taken in 1945, at the former gas chambers site.
http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp49.jpg

13. HOLES #3
The photo was taken in 1945, at the former gas chambers site
http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp50.jpg

14. INSPECTING A MASS GRAVE
The photo was taken in 1945. Investigation team, inspecting a mass grave
http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp51.jpg[/quote]

15. Bones, pieces of clothes and thousands of personal belongings of the victims were digged out by the local population when they searched for valuables.
The photo was taken in 1945.
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp35.jpg
 
Old June 25th, 2008 #208
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Robert:

"Then how did they manage to burn to ash, by the same method (even with the disadvantage that they had less room under the grid for placing flammable substances there than they had at the AR camps) the 6,865 victims of the Dresden bombing on 13/14 February 1945 that were burned to ashes on the Altmarkt, according to the sources quoted in my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...rather_18.html ?

There’s even a photo showing ashes in front of the burning grid at Dresden:"

That photo, for those who don't have their magic glasses on, shows a pile of crushed BONE, interspersed with ash. A blind man can see the bones.
And even Gerdes sees the ashes, wow! Note that the lying prick previously claimed bones alone and is now trying to shift the goalposts. From Gerdes’ post # 192, before he edits it (emphases added):

Quote:
NOTE: It must be noted that in the "incineration" of corpses under the conditions specified by the alleged "eyewitnesses" and the alleged "human ash" alleged;u found by the alleged "investigators," the bones would not have turned to ash, but would have remained as bones.

You do understand that even modern cremation techniques don’t reduce bodies to ashes, but rather to BONES, right? Disingenuously referring to the alleged cremated remains as “ashes” rather than correctly referring to them as bones is a crucial component of this big-lie / cognitive illusion.
The pile of «crushed BONE interspersed with ashes» (or ashes interspersed with crushed bone) in the Dresden photo looks like what I figure the remains described by examining judge Godzieszewski looked like (emphases mine):

Quote:
On October 12, 1945, the Regional Investigative Judge of the district court of Zamosc, Czeslaw Godzieszewski, presented an “Account of the diggings in the cemetery of the Belzec extermination camp,” in which he set down the findings from the inspection of the Belzec camp he had made that day, aided by 12 workers. In this context, he wrote: "The opening labeled No. 1 was taken down to a depth of 8 m and a width of 10 m and attained the bottom level of the graves. During the operation, at a depth of about 2 m, we struck the first layer of ash stemming from incinerated human bodies, mixed with sand. This layer was about 1 m thick. The next layer of ash was discovered at a depth of 4 – 6 meters. In the ash removed, some charred remains of human bodies were found, such as hands and arms, women’s hair, as well as human bones not totally burnt. We also recovered pieces of burnt wood. In trench No. 1, the layer of human ash stopped at a depth of 6 meters. The opening labeled No. 2 was taken down to a depth of 6 meters. In this trench, the layer of human ash began at a depth of 1.5 m and continued down to a depth of some 5 m, with occasional breaks. Here, too, the ash contained human hair, part of a human body, pieces of clothing, and remnants of incompletely burnt bones. Openings labeled Nos. 3 and 4 were freed to a depth of 3 meters. In hole No. 4, at a depth of 80 cm, we found a human skull with remnants of skin and hair, as well as two shinbones and a rib. Furthermore, at a level of between one and three meters, these holes yielded human ash mixed with sand and fragments of incompletely burnt human bones. Openings labeled Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 were dug to a depth of 2 m, but showed only human ash mixed with sand and human bones, such as jawbones and shinbones. Throughout all the excavations it was observed that the camp cemetery had already been disturbed by wildcat diggings; this is borne out by the fact that the layers of human ash are not uniform but mixed with sand. The recovered human bones; the bodily remains, which where in a state of complete decomposition; and the ash were collected in a common location to await the arrival of the district surgeon. Work was stopped at 17:30 hours."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
"Burnt to ashes" is the lie that Roberta has to cling to to keep her fantasy alive in her mentally ill / retarded head.
No, I have no problem at all with the presence of bones or bone fragments in the ash, as described by examining judge Godzieszewski or as visible on the Dresden photo. Lying prick Gerdes is very lamely trying to scrounge up another straw-man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Roberta:

"Ah, and even if you were right about the bones"

"Even if I were right?" LOL!!! Even if you crush bone into very small pieces, it's still bone, not ash.
That would explain the "fragments of incompletely burnt human bones" mentioned by examining judge Godzieszewski. But I’m looking forward to Gerdes’ demonstration that burnt bones cannot be crushed into something so small that it may be perceived as ashes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Prove the existence of one pound of crushed bone or one single tooth that was found at Belzec Roberta. Please notice that Godzieszewski nor the coroner never once mentioned crushed bone, or the presence of a single tooth. (Out of an alleged 18 -24 million!)
How did 434,508 Jews minus a handful of survivors and including babies and toothless old folks have 18 to 24 million teeth, Gerdes? Let’s see your calculations.

And why would all teeth have survived a) incineration and b) subsequent crushing of the remains? I’m sure that some did, hence the findings described by investigators.

As to supposed absence of crushed bone and teeth in Godzieszewski’s or the coroner’s report, it seems that Gerdes cannot read. The examining judge’s and the coroner’s report once again, with my emphases on the parts mentioning bone fragments or teeth artificial or natural:

Quote:
On October 12, 1945, the Regional Investigative Judge of the district court of Zamosc, Czeslaw Godzieszewski, presented an “Account of the diggings in the cemetery of the Belzec extermination camp,” in which he set down the findings from the inspection of the Belzec camp he had made that day, aided by 12 workers. In this context, he wrote: "The opening labeled No. 1 was taken down to a depth of 8 m and a width of 10 m and attained the bottom level of the graves. During the operation, at a depth of about 2 m, we struck the first layer of ash stemming from incinerated human bodies, mixed with sand. This layer was about 1 m thick. The next layer of ash was discovered at a depth of 4 – 6 meters. In the ash removed, some charred remains of human bodies were found, such as hands and arms, women’s hair, as well as human bones not totally burnt. We also recovered pieces of burnt wood. In trench No. 1, the layer of human ash stopped at a depth of 6 meters. The opening labeled No. 2 was taken down to a depth of 6 meters. In this trench, the layer of human ash began at a depth of 1.5 m and continued down to a depth of some 5 m, with occasional breaks. Here, too, the ash contained human hair, part of a human body, pieces of clothing, and remnants of incompletely burnt bones. Openings labeled Nos. 3 and 4 were freed to a depth of 3 meters. In hole No. 4, at a depth of 80 cm, we found a human skull with remnants of skin and hair, as well as two shinbones and a rib. Furthermore, at a level of between one and three meters, these holes yielded human ash mixed with sand and fragments of incompletely burnt human bones. Openings labeled Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 were dug to a depth of 2 m, but showed only human ash mixed with sand and human bones, such as jawbones and shinbones. Throughout all the excavations it was observed that the camp cemetery had already been disturbed by wildcat diggings; this is borne out by the fact that the layers of human ash are not uniform but mixed with sand. The recovered human bones; the bodily remains, which where in a state of complete decomposition; and the ash were collected in a common location to await the arrival of the district surgeon. Work was stopped at 17:30 hours."

The next day, October 13, 1945, the findings were inspected by the coroner. The subsequent report describes primarily the results of the examination performed by the judge and the coroner: "During the inspection of the area of the extermination camp, particularly during the excavations at the place of the cemetery on October 12, 1945, a large number of human bones were found, such as skulls, parts of skulls, vertebrae, ribs, collarbones, shoulder blades, arm bones, lower legs, wrists, fingers, pelvic bones, thigh bones, lower legs, and foot bones. Some of the bones mentioned are either partly burnt or had not been burnt at all. Except for a few skulls showing rotting scalp and hair, the majority of the bones are free from soft tissue. Among the remains of human bodies recovered on October 12, 1945, we identified two forearms and a lumbar portion of the backbone with some soft tissue and traces of carbonization. The lumbar section belongs to an adult, whereas the forearms come from a child a few years old. From the size of the various bones one can conclude that they belong to persons of different age groups, from two-year-olds up to very old people, as borne out by toothless jaws and numerous dentures. Among the jawbones found there was one partially burnt specimen containing milk teeth as well as incipient permanent teeth, which indicates that it belongs to a person 7 to 8 years of age. No traces of bullet holes or other mechanical wounds were found on the skulls. The long bones show no traces either of gunshot wounds or fractures. Because of the advanced state of decomposition it was very difficult to say to what organs the recovered shapeless portions of soft tissue from human bodies might belong. In a hole dug by the local population in a search for gold and valuables, two lower legs belonging to a two-year-old child were discovered. These members are partly decomposed, partly mummified. The area of the cemetery, in particular the wildcat holes, is covered with layers of human ash of varying breadth, which stem from the incineration of human corpses and wood; they are intermingled with sand in varying proportions. The color of the ash varies between light-ash and dark gray; the ash has a heavy consistency and smells of decomposing human bodies. In the ash, charred human bones as well as pieces of charcoal are clearly visible. In the lower strata of the ash the smell of decomposition is more pronounced than in the layers nearer the surface. The hair discovered belongs mainly to women, as shown by their length and by the type of arrangement (braids and buns fixed with hairpins). In addition to natural hair, we encountered ladies’ wigs as well. With this, the inspection was terminated."
Take the tomato slices off your eyes when reading, Gerdes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And of course the answer lies in the alleged "huge mass graves" themselves. All Roberta has to do to prove that the remains of 600,000 to 800,000 jews are buried in Belzec, is to show us the alleged "huge mass graves."
No, all I have to do to prove the murder of 434,508 deportees (drop the straw-man, Gerdes) minus a handful of survivors at Belzec is to present the eyewitness and documentary evidence, and I can also present physical evidence through the descriptions contained in the above-quoted site investigation report and in Prof. Kola’s report discussed in my article starting under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...on-belzec.html .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Better yet Roberta, how about you just proving the existence of the largest of all the alleged "huge mass graves" of Belzec? Can you prove that grave #10, the grave that allegedly contains 10 % of the total volume of the alleged "huge mass graves" exists? I'll address that in my next post.
The existence of this grave can be easily proven by reference to the description and plan and section thereof that are included in Prof. Kola’s archeological report about Belzec. What percentage of the remains lying inside all Belzec mass graves or scattered around the area are contained in this particular grave is a matter of pointless conjecture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And Roberta's claim / photos allegedly "proving" that a body can be "incinerated" and not have it's hair burnt off is so laughable that I don't even know what to say other than - just what part of "incineration" do you not understand Roberta? How can a cremation process that is worthy of its name not be burn the hair of the cremated individual?
Who said the incineration/cremation or whatever-you-want-to-call-it process was "worthy of its name", whatever you mean by that? The remains found by examining judge Godzieszewski clearly show that the process was far from perfect and the result far from a complete incineration/cremation or whatever-you-want-to-call-it of all corpses.
 
Old June 25th, 2008 #209
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
OK Roberta, let's try and keep things as simple as possible so others can follow along with what exactly it is you're going to attemt to show us here.

What I want you to present of course is the physical evidence that you have for the "huge mass graves" of Belzec allegedly found by the three "investigations" that I have listed. But I think we can simplify the issue even more. As you know, kola / O'Neil list "33 huge mass graves" allegedly located at Belzec, so rather than talk about all three investigations or all 33 of kolas alleged graves, let's just talk about one - the largest of all the alleged 33. After all, if you can't prove the existence of the largest of the alleged "33 huge mass graves," you certainly can't prove the existence of all 33 of them - correct?

So, to start, let's agree on what is the largest of the alleged "33 huge mass graves." Now by "largest" I mean the grave that allegedly contains the most bodies / remains. So it doesn't necessarily have to be the largest in square meter volume, but it most likely is.

The typical listing of the "33 huge mass graves" that I'm aware of has #10 listed as the largest of all the alleged "huge mass graves" and lists its square meter volume as being - 2,100 m3.

Do you agree with this Roberta?

Would you also say that this 2,100 m3 mass grave holds the largest number of alleged human remains, both cremated / crushed remains and corpses in a "wax-fat transformation?"

And if you agree with that also, then would you please tell us what the total estimated number of human remains are claimed to allegedly be in said grave?

OK Roberta, again, what grave holds the largest number of alleged human remains - what # has been given to that grave? What is the volume in m3 of said grave and what is the total number of alleged remains in said grave.

Pretty simple, huh? I'm guessing that your answer will be:

Grave # 10,- 2,100 m3,- ??? # of remains.
I see Gerdes is regurgitating old crap he produced on Topix. The above babbling looks like what he produced in Topix post # 689 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p34#c689 . My response to this horseshit (largely repeated, as Gerdes likes to repeat himself, in Topix post # 696 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p34#c696 ) is in Topix posts # 691 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p34#c691, # 692 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p34#c692, # 704 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p35#c704, # 705 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p35#c705, # 707 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p35#c707 and # 708 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p35#c708 . I’ll copy over the last two as they specifically refer to grave # 10:

Quote:
>Roberta,

>Show me the physical evidence that proves the claim that kola's grave # 10 really does have a >volume of 2,100 m3, and that it contains the remains of at least 80,000 jews.

>How about just one percent of the alleged remains?

>Just one percent Roberta.

>What we're looking for Roberta, is just one grave that you can prove exists that contains just one percent of the alleged mass murder at Belzec.

>Just one grave Roberta.

>Just one percent.

>One.

>Roberta:

>"Finally, Part 5... thrashes Mattogno’s ridiculous attempts to put together another explanation >for the mass graves found by Kola and his team than the mass murder of hundreds of >thousands of people."

>What "huge mass graves" Roberta?

>Better yet, just prove that grave # 10 exists. Tell us the EXACT dimensions and EXACT volume >M3 and tell us EXACTLY how you came to these EXACT FIGURES. Then tell us EXACTLY how >many jews are buried in grave # 10 and tell us EXACTLY how you came to that number.

>Pretty simple archeological stuff Roberta.

>REAL SIMPLE.

The one more or less reasonable request in all this babbling is that for information about the dimensions and volume of grave # 10, so I'll quote Prof. Kola’s description of this grave in his report, as I already did in Part 3 of my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...007754580.html :

«The grave pit No 10 (Fig 27)
One of the biggest graves, in bottom view of a rectangular shape with the size of about 24,00 x 18,00 m. Situated in the north-central part of ha XV, basing on 16 deep drills (No 482-490, 494, 496-499, 501, 520); in some neighbourhood, much more shallow drills (with the ground bottom of about 1,50 m) crematory remains were reported. The grave was very deep (the drills in particular places were stopped at the depth of 4,25 to 5,20 m, because of bodies in wax-fat transformation and underground waters presence). One drill (No 483) at the depth of 4,40 m revealed the appearance of several cm layer of white sand mixed with rich lime. Over body layers there were some levels of crematory remains mixed with charcoal in turn with layers of sandy soil (20 cm). The edge parts of the pit are filled shallow, to the depth of about 1,50 m, probably because of getting some soil to make next layers between the bodies. That fact caused widening of the grave which was filled with next body remains. The estimated volume of the grave amounts about 2100 m3.»

The plan and section of grave # 10 is in part 2 of my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...belzec_23.html :

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...e27Grave10.jpg

If Gerdes wants more than the above information, he should first of all explain why he wants more.

Are there any rules or standards of evidence he can show us whereby an archaeologist's description of a mass grave and its contents, and his plan and section of that grave, are not acceptable or not sufficient documentation for evidentiary purposes in criminal investigation or historical research?

Are there any reasons to doubt the accuracy of Prof. Kola’s description and of his plan and section?

If neither of both, why should anyone give a flying fuck about what more spoilt little brat Gerdes claims he wants to see?(Actually he doesn’t want to see anything, as should have become clear from his behavior throughout this discussion.)
Quote:
The question how many Jews "EXACTLY" "are buried in grave # 10" is a perfectly idiotic one even by Gerdes' high standards of idiocy, apart from Gerdes not being able to explain what the relevance of this question is supposed to be (some part of the word "relevance" must be too hard for his tiny brain to understand).

It is idiotic because, as Gerdes well knows, nobody ever counted the number of Jews dropped into a specific mass grave, and neither the Polish investigators in 1945 (mentioned in Carlo Mattogno’s Belzec book) nor Prof. Kola quantified the partial remains they found in any of the graves (there would have been no point in doing so anyway, as the human remains were mixed with wood ashes and soil and any calculation of how many burned human bodies corresponded to the remains found in a specific grave would have been but a wild guess).

What can be done is to establish how many dead bodies could have fit into a given mass grave before the bodies were extracted and burned. In part 4.1 of my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...belzec_27.html I concluded that the 21,310 cubic meters of burial space estimated by Kola could, considering the expectable age and sex composition of the deportees to Belzec and their malnourished state, have taken in 319,650 corpses – if they had been thrown in there all at once. That would be about 31,500 corpses for the 2100 m3 of grave # 10.

Of course the corpses were not all thrown in at once, but a grave took several days or weeks to be filled, depending on how many deportees arrived in a given period. So by the time the upper layers of corpses were introduced into the grave, the lower layers would already have considerably shrunk in volume due to natural decomposition and the effect of quicklime that was poured onto each layer of bodies.

Furthermore, as mentioned in part 4.1 of my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...belzec_27.html , there is evidence to the SS having practiced "top down" – burning of the corpses in the mass graves, the obvious purpose of which would have been to stretch each grave's capacity and make the most of the available grave space.

So a higher concentration of bodies in each mass grave was possible – and, as the documentary eyewitness about the number of deportees shows, actually achieved. The 21,310 cubic meters of grave space estimated by Kola could hold the bodies of 434,000 people, thereof ca. 42,800 in the 2,100 cubic meters of grave # 10.

This is not to say that the partial remains of 42,800 people are currently contained in grave # 10, because the SS need not have returned to each grave the amount of human remains corresponding to the number of bodies exhumed from that grave – some of the emptied graves may have received relatively more cremation remains, others relatively less, and a part of the cremation remains, as mentioned by Prof. Kola, was also scattered all over the camp.

So there’s no way of telling, based on the available data, to how many dead bodies the partial remains contained in grave # 10 – or in any other of the 33 Belzec mass graves, for that matter – actually correspond. Any conjecture in this sense is but a wild guess.

And that, again, is the reason why Gerdes question how many Jews "EXACTLY" "are buried in grave # 10", apart from being irrelevant, is a showpiece of Gerdian imbecility.
Of course this showpiece of Gerdian imbecility is now being moved over to the present thread. Redundant bore Gerdes likes to repeat himself.
 
Old June 25th, 2008 #210
ced smythe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberto Muehlenkamp View Post
And I’m still looking forward to Gerdes’ explanation why the following descriptions of the Chelmno physical evidence, quoted in my post # 182 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=182, should be considered mere allegations and not evidentiary documentation of the physical evidence at Chelmno :
... He even promised to override the museum staff and contact Rabbi Gluck or Rabbi Schudrich in Warsaw if he heard of anything happening at the site that might be questionable.

... Jews and other Poles were first taken to the castle, where they were gathered in groups and put onto trucks, supposedly for transport. Once they were in the trucks the doors were sealed and the exhaust was pumped into the truck cabin, killing all the occupants during the drive to the forest area.

In a 2003 article in Archaeology magazine author Krzysztof Gorczycae described the excavations at Chelmno: "It’s one thing to hear about the crematory, it’s another to stand inside an enormous pit that is filled with human bones."

Rabbi Chaim Baruch Gluck (right) and assistant examine new excavations at Chelmno with local official (facing rear).



During a cursory search we saw many bone fragments easily visible on the surface of the site.

We then went to the forest area, driving along the same route on which the Nazis took their victims.

The forest area also has two sections. One is a beautiful area covered with flowers, with a sign in Polish commemorating the non-Jews who were killed there. In the back is a Jewish monument and a gate leading to the area where the crematoria were and where the remains were dumped into large pits.

The surrounding area is covered with grayish-to-black earth where the ashes were mixed with the earth and after many years are coming to the surface.

What lay before us was a large field of open excavations – some over a hundred feet long. Many of them had protective black plastic sheeting. Some looked old, with grass growing in the pits, but many looked almost brand new. The mayor was in shock and speechless, as were we.

We went from pit to pit, and in some we found easily recognizable human remains such as bone fragments and even a knuckle joint.

While we were at Chelmno we called Rabbi Michael Schudrich in Warsaw and made plans to go directly to see him and show him the video and photographic evidence from Chelmno. Rabbi Shlesinger of London was also contacted, as he is considered one of the leading experts on cemeteries and Jewish law.

In Warsaw, Rabbi Shudrich told us, "We are now only beginning to understand the bestiality of the Nazi regime. We are now waking up to the fact that there are still a lot of things that have to be done to preserve the dignity and holiness of the remains of the victims. The Polish government is a lot more sensitive to the issue of the Holocaust and cemeteries, and has passed laws to protect these sites, but not everyone knows or respects these laws.

"We have to find out what went wrong here and how to fix it so that it won’t occur in another place at another time."

Rabbi Gluck said that after having seen Chelmno with his own eyes he was still in shock, and that he would do everything possible in his capacity as chief rabbi of Galicia and as a member of the Presidential Commission for Preservation of American Heritage Abroad to help correct the situation and ensure that mass graves and Holocaust sites are not disturbed in the future.




All of your impressive verbiage amounts to circumlocution as this is the foundation of your argument. Your standards of documentation and physical evidence are emotional and wholly Jewish:

Krzysztof Gorczycae described the excavations at Chelmno: "It’s one thing to hear about the crematory, it’s another to stand inside an enormous pit that is filled with human bones."

This is more of the same neurotic titillation that works so well on the Jew psyche; Gorczycae is either a blithering idiot who somehow missed a photo opportunity or he understands Jewish credulity; I'm for the latter.

Note the wise rabbi's concern that genuine investigation will destroy the legend. Jews will use their power to supervise and disseminate the meaning of future investigations.

Your "not that it matters" notion that all of the prosecuting evidence is from Jews cannot be reconciled with your claim to being a proud German. Your mannerisms are those of a Jew.
 
Old June 25th, 2008 #211
EireannGoddess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ced smythe View Post
... He even promised to override the museum staff and contact Rabbi Gluck or Rabbi Schudrich in ....

This is more of the same neurotic titillation that works so well on the Jew psyche; Gorczycae is either a blithering idiot who somehow missed a photo opportunity or he understands Jewish credulity; I'm for the latter.

Note the wise rabbi's concern that genuine investigation will destroy the legend. Jews will use their power to supervise and disseminate the meaning of future investigations.

Your "not that it matters" notion that all of the prosecuting evidence is from Jews cannot be reconciled with your claim to being a proud German. Your mannerisms are those of a Jew.
Bobby Mule is not a "proud German"; he is a proud mischling- ie, a jew that may or may not be "from Germany"

Last edited by EireannGoddess; June 25th, 2008 at 10:56 AM.
 
Old June 25th, 2008 #212
Greg Gerdes
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OK, boiling this down even further...

* * * * *

The following is all the photographic documentation there is of the alleged archeological / forensic investigations allegedly conducted at the alleged industrial killing centers of Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), a total of 2,040,000 jews were killed and buried in “huge mass graves” at said sites.

*

Sobibor:

The following is all the photographic documentation there is for the existence of the alleged “huge mass graves” of Sobibor which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), 250,000 jews were killed and, according to the alleged Kola archeological investigation, were buried in “7 huge mass graves” - one grave measuring 70 x 25 x 5 meters and six measuring 20 x 25 x 5 meters:

No known photographs of these alleged “huge mass graves” exist.

(Nor do any photos exist of Kola's alleged core samples allegedly taken from said graves.)


The following is all the photographic evidence there is of the human remains alleged to have been located in Sobibors “huge mass graves:”

http://www.undersobibor.org/excavation09.jpg


And:

The alleged Shermer investigation:

There is no photographic proof what-so-ever that Michael Shermer so much as stepped foot into the Sobibor camp during his alleged “firsthand” investigation of / research in the Sobibor camp, in which he claims he proved, by “reviewing the physical evidence,” that 250,000 jews were killed there.


*

Chelmno:

The following is all the photographic documentation there is for the existence of the alleged “huge mass graves” of Chelmno which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), 320,000 jews were killed and, according to the alleged Gorczyca archeological investigation, were buried in “huge mass graves.”

Note: Though no specific figure has been given for the number of “huge mass graves” allegedly located at Chelmno, we are told that – “in a large field of open excavations,” there are - “some over a hundred feet long.” (Scroll down to the bottom photo):

http://www.zchor.org/extermination/pits.htm

And:

http://www.thejewishpress.com/Upload.../chelmno-1.gif


The following is all the photographic evidence there is of the human remains alleged to have been located in Chelmnos “huge mass graves:”

http://www.death-camps.org/occupatio...gchelmno06.jpg


*

Belzec:

The following is all the photographic documentation there is for the existence of the alleged “huge mass graves” of Belzec which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), 600,000 jews were killed and, according to the alleged investigations of:

1 – The alleged investigation of Regional Investigative Judge of the district court of Zamosc - Judge Czeslaw Godzieszewski, in which he claims to have proven the existence of human remains in 9 excavated pits - the largest excavated pit allegedly being - 10 x 10 x 8 meters:

No known photographs of the alleged 9 excavated pits exist.

However, it has long been claimed that the following photos were taken at Belzec:

A - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5250_1_web.jpg

B - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5276_1_web.jpg

C - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5275_1_web.jpg

D - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5252_1_web.jpg


Are the above photos those that show the results of Godzieszewski's "investigation?"

Note: In summarizing his alleged investigation, Judge Czeslaw Godzieszewski claimed that the number of jews murdered and buried in the “huge mass graves” of Belzec was 1.8 million!


2 – The alleged kola investigation, in which he claims to have proven the existence of 33 “huge mass graves” - the largest allegedly being “grave # 10” at - 24 x 18 x 5 meters:

No known photographs of the alleged 33 “huge mass graves” exist.

(Nor do any photos exist of Kola's alleged core samples allegedly taken from said graves.)


3 - The alleged Shermer investigation, in which he claims to have proven the existence of 30 “huge mass graves” - all 100 x 25 x 15 meters:

No known photographs of the alleged 30 “huge mass graves” exist.

Note: Each of the 30 “huge mass graves” allegedly proven to exist by Shermer, were once claimed to have held 100,000 dead jews each.


The following is all the photographic documentation there is of the claims of Rabbis Avi Weiss and Shmuel Herzfeld who allegedly saw human remains “strewn throughout” the camp and “literally everywhere” in an adjacent “large field.” (Scroll down to the photo captioned “Remnants.”):

http://www.death-camps.org/belzec/buildingsite.html


Please note: Robin O’Neil (who claims 800,000 jews are buried at Belzec) has yet to release the alleged videos which he claims he took while participating in the Kola “investigation.”

*

Treblinka:

The following is all the alleged photographic documentation there is for the existence of the alleged “huge mass graves” of Treblinka which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), 870,000 jews were killed and, according to the alleged investigations of:

1 - The Aug 22 and 23, 1944 Soviet investigation:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp44.jpg

(Where are all the other photos?)

The following aerial photo was taken about a month after the Soviet “investigation:”

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap8.jpg

(Why didn’t the Soviets do any digging in the alleged burial area, where the vast majority of the alleged 870,000 dead jews were allegedly buried? They allegedly “relentlessly interviewed” 12 “eyewitnesses” before they commenced their “investigation.” Why did they have to resort to digging in the cemetery a mile away in order to locate any corpses? – And only 318 at that!)


2 - The Nov 9 - 13, 1945 Polish / jewish investigation:

A – Photos of the "huge mass grave:"

1 - http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp35.jpg

2 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp41.jpg

3 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp43.jpg

4 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp42.jpg


B - Photos of the "huge mass grave's" excavation:

1 - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5809_1_web.jpg

2 - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5814_1_web.jpg

3 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp51.jpg

4 - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg


C - miscellaneous photos that show nothing at all:

1 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp46.jpg

2 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp47.jpg

3 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp48.jpg

4 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp49.jpg

5 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp50.jpg


(That's supposed to be photographic "proof" of the murder of 870,000 jews? Where are all the other photos? No wonder they didn’t want any international observers present during the “investigation.”)


3 - The "commission from Warsaw" investigation:

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_3.jpg

(Where are all the other photos?)


4 – The alleged Shermer “investigation:”

There is no photographic proof what-so-ever that Michael Shermer so much as stepped foot into the Treblinka camp during his alleged “firsthand” investigation of / research, in which he claims he proved, by “reviewing the physical evidence,” that 900,000 jews were killed there.


5 – The photos of the alleged "huge craters" from "the time when the "grave robbers" allegedly used bombs for "extraction." Remember this quote from Martyna Rusiniak: "The young historian shows us photos of the largest postwar excavation sites. The pits have a length of ten meters, one of them looks like the construction pit of a several-story building."):

These allegedly known photographs, for some inexplicable reason, have never been published. (Why haven’t these alleged photos been scanned and uploaded onto the WWW?)


6 -The following is all the photographic documentation there is for the claim of Martin Gilbert who allegedly, in a 1959 visit to the Treblinka site - “driven by I know not what impulse, I ran my hand through that soil, again and again. The earth beneath my feet was coarse and sharp: filled with the fragments of human bone:"

No known photographs of the alleged field “filled with the fragments of human bone" exist.

* * * * *

Yes folks, that is all the physical evidence there is for the alleged murder of 2,040,000 jews and the fraudulent claims that this alleged murder has been proven via archeological "investigations." The "investigations" and the "investigators" are as fraudulent as the original claims of mass murder.
 
Old June 25th, 2008 #213
Greg Gerdes
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And this is as far as I can boil down the issue of the fraudulent archeological “investigations” of the alleged “pure extermination centers” at the moment. (Because of Roberta’s relentless whining and to be as fair and balance as I possibley can, I did relent and include some photos that I had stricken earlier.)

* * * * *

The following is all the photographic documentation there is of the alleged archeological / forensic investigations allegedly conducted at the alleged industrial killing centers of Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), a total of 2,040,000 jews were killed and buried in “huge mass graves” at said sites.

*

Sobibor:

The following is all the photographic documentation there is for the existence of the alleged “huge mass graves” of Sobibor which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), 250,000 jews were killed and, according to the alleged Kola archeological investigation, were buried in “7 huge mass graves” - one grave measuring 70 x 25 x 5 meters and six measuring 20 x 25 x 5 meters:

No known photographs of these alleged “huge mass graves” exist.

(Nor do any photos exist of Kola's alleged core samples allegedly taken from said graves.)


The following is all the photographic evidence there is of the human remains alleged to have been located in Sobibors “huge mass graves:”

http://www.undersobibor.org/excavation09.jpg


And:

The alleged Shermer investigation:

There is no photographic proof what-so-ever that Michael Shermer so much as stepped foot into the Sobibor camp during his alleged “firsthand” investigation of / research in the Sobibor camp, in which he claims he proved, by “reviewing the physical evidence,” that 250,000 jews were killed there.


*

Chelmno:

The following is all the photographic documentation there is for the existence of the alleged “huge mass graves” of Chelmno which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), 320,000 jews were killed and, according to the alleged Gorczyca archeological investigation, were buried in “huge mass graves.”

Note: Though no specific figure has been given for the number of “huge mass graves” allegedly located at Chelmno, we are told that – “in a large field of open excavations,” there are - “some over a hundred feet long.” (Scroll down to the bottom photo):

http://www.zchor.org/extermination/pits.htm

And:

http://www.thejewishpress.com/Upload.../chelmno-1.gif


The following is all the photographic evidence there is of the human remains alleged to have been located in Chelmnos “huge mass graves:”

http://www.death-camps.org/occupatio...gchelmno06.jpg


*

Belzec:

The following is all the photographic documentation there is for the existence of the alleged “huge mass graves” of Belzec which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), 600,000 jews were killed and, according to the alleged investigations of:

1 – The alleged investigation of Regional Investigative Judge of the district court of Zamosc - Judge Czeslaw Godzieszewski, in which he claims to have proven the existence of human remains in 9 excavated pits - the largest excavated pit allegedly being - 10 x 10 x 8 meters:

No known photographs of the alleged 9 excavated pits exist.

However, it has long been claimed that the following photos were taken at Belzec:

A - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5250_1_web.jpg

B - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5276_1_web.jpg

C - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5275_1_web.jpg

D - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5252_1_web.jpg


Are the above photos those that show the results of Godzieszewski's "investigation?"

Note: In summarizing his alleged investigation, Judge Czeslaw Godzieszewski claimed that the number of jews murdered and buried in the “huge mass graves” of Belzec was 1.8 million!


2 – The alleged kola investigation, in which he claims to have proven the existence of 33 “huge mass graves” - the largest allegedly being “grave # 10” at - 24 x 18 x 5 meters:

No known photographs of the alleged 33 “huge mass graves” exist.

(Nor do any photos exist of Kola's alleged core samples allegedly taken from said graves.)


3 - The alleged Shermer investigation, in which he claims to have proven the existence of 30 “huge mass graves” - all 100 x 25 x 15 meters:

No known photographs of the alleged 30 “huge mass graves” exist.

Note: Each of the 30 “huge mass graves” allegedly proven to exist by Shermer, were once claimed to have held 100,000 dead jews each.


Please note: Robin O’Neil (who claims 800,000 jews are buried at Belzec) has yet to release the alleged videos which he claims he took while participating in the Kola “investigation.”

*

Treblinka:

The following is all the alleged photographic documentation there is for the existence of the alleged “huge mass graves” of Treblinka which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), 870,000 jews were killed and, according to the alleged investigations of:

1 - The Aug 22 and 23, 1944 Soviet investigation:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp44.jpg

(Where are all the other photos?)

The following aerial photo was taken about a month after the Soviet “investigation:”

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap8.jpg

(Why didn’t the Soviets do any digging in the alleged burial area, where the vast majority of the alleged 870,000 dead jews were allegedly buried? They allegedly “relentlessly interviewed” 12 “eyewitnesses” before they commenced their “investigation.” Why did they have to resort to digging in the cemetery a mile away in order to locate any corpses? – And only 318 at that!)


2 - The Nov 9 - 13, 1945 Polish / jewish investigation:

A – Photos of the "huge mass grave:"

1 - http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp35.jpg

2 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp41.jpg

3 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp43.jpg

4 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp42.jpg


B - Photos of the "huge mass grave's" excavation:

1 - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5809_1_web.jpg

2 - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5814_1_web.jpg

3 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp51.jpg

4 - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg


C - Miscellaneous photos of trash strewn about the site:

1 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp46.jpg

2 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp47.jpg

3 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp48.jpg

4 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp49.jpg

5 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp50.jpg


(That's supposed to be photographic "proof" of the murder of 870,000 jews? Where are all the other photos? No wonder they didn’t want any international observers present during the “investigation.”)


3 - The "commission from Warsaw" investigation:

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_3.jpg

(Where are all the other photos?)


4 – The alleged Shermer “investigation:”

There is no photographic proof what-so-ever that Michael Shermer so much as stepped foot into the Treblinka camp during his alleged “firsthand” investigation of / research, in which he claims he proved, by “reviewing the physical evidence,” that 900,000 jews were killed there.


* * * * *

Yes folks, that is all the physical evidence there is for the alleged mass murder of 2,040,000 jews and the fraudulent claims that this alleged murder has been proven via archeological "investigations." The "investigations" and the "investigators" are as fraudulent as the original claims of mass murder.

The “pure extermination centers” were simply the WMD’s of WW II. Get used to the fact.
 
Old June 26th, 2008 #214
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ced smythe View Post
... He even promised to override the museum staff and contact Rabbi Gluck or Rabbi Schudrich in Warsaw if he heard of anything happening at the site that might be questionable.

... Jews and other Poles were first taken to the castle, where they were gathered in groups and put onto trucks, supposedly for transport. Once they were in the trucks the doors were sealed and the exhaust was pumped into the truck cabin, killing all the occupants during the drive to the forest area.

In a 2003 article in Archaeology magazine author Krzysztof Gorczycae described the excavations at Chelmno: "It’s one thing to hear about the crematory, it’s another to stand inside an enormous pit that is filled with human bones."

Rabbi Chaim Baruch Gluck (right) and assistant examine new excavations at Chelmno with local official (facing rear).



During a cursory search we saw many bone fragments easily visible on the surface of the site.

We then went to the forest area, driving along the same route on which the Nazis took their victims.

The forest area also has two sections. One is a beautiful area covered with flowers, with a sign in Polish commemorating the non-Jews who were killed there. In the back is a Jewish monument and a gate leading to the area where the crematoria were and where the remains were dumped into large pits.

The surrounding area is covered with grayish-to-black earth where the ashes were mixed with the earth and after many years are coming to the surface.

What lay before us was a large field of open excavations – some over a hundred feet long. Many of them had protective black plastic sheeting. Some looked old, with grass growing in the pits, but many looked almost brand new. The mayor was in shock and speechless, as were we.

We went from pit to pit, and in some we found easily recognizable human remains such as bone fragments and even a knuckle joint.

While we were at Chelmno we called Rabbi Michael Schudrich in Warsaw and made plans to go directly to see him and show him the video and photographic evidence from Chelmno. Rabbi Shlesinger of London was also contacted, as he is considered one of the leading experts on cemeteries and Jewish law.

In Warsaw, Rabbi Shudrich told us, "We are now only beginning to understand the bestiality of the Nazi regime. We are now waking up to the fact that there are still a lot of things that have to be done to preserve the dignity and holiness of the remains of the victims. The Polish government is a lot more sensitive to the issue of the Holocaust and cemeteries, and has passed laws to protect these sites, but not everyone knows or respects these laws.

"We have to find out what went wrong here and how to fix it so that it won’t occur in another place at another time."

Rabbi Gluck said that after having seen Chelmno with his own eyes he was still in shock, and that he would do everything possible in his capacity as chief rabbi of Galicia and as a member of the Presidential Commission for Preservation of American Heritage Abroad to help correct the situation and ensure that mass graves and Holocaust sites are not disturbed in the future.




All of your impressive verbiage amounts to circumlocution as this is the foundation of your argument. Your standards of documentation and physical evidence are emotional and wholly Jewish:

Krzysztof Gorczycae described the excavations at Chelmno: "It’s one thing to hear about the crematory, it’s another to stand inside an enormous pit that is filled with human bones."

This is more of the same neurotic titillation that works so well on the Jew psyche; Gorczycae is either a blithering idiot who somehow missed a photo opportunity or he understands Jewish credulity; I'm for the latter.

Note the wise rabbi's concern that genuine investigation will destroy the legend. Jews will use their power to supervise and disseminate the meaning of future investigations.

Your "not that it matters" notion that all of the prosecuting evidence is from Jews cannot be reconciled with your claim to being a proud German. Your mannerisms are those of a Jew.
Is this hollow speculative gibberish and furious invective supposed to be an argument against the reliability of this source's description of the physical evidence, CS?

Or are you just trying to let off steam?

I'd say it's the latter.

And if you claim that all prosecution evidence I have shown is from Jews you're not a very attentive reader. These exhibits listed in my post # 206 are mostly if not exclusively contemporary Nazi documents or assessments thereof by a West German court, or testimonies of participants in the killing, mostly before West German criminal justice authorities:

3. Letter by Willy Just to Walter Rauff dated 5 June 1942, regarding gas van operations at Chelmno extermination camp:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/194...-spezialwagen/

4. Letter by Gauleiter Arthur Greiser to Himmler dated 1 May 1942, mentioning the "special treatment" of 100,000 Jews from his district about to be completed, and requesting permission to treat 35,000 Poles with open tuberculosis in the same manner:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...r-greiser.html

5. Further documents about the murderous purpose of "Sonderkommando Lange":
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...urpose-of.html

6. Eyewitness testimonies about the use of gas vans at Chelmno: http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/384...ml#reply-38440

7. Excerpt from the judgment at the trial against former members of the Chelmno staff before District Court of Bonn, German Federal Republic, mentioning the documentary evidence used by the court to establish the number of people killed at Chelmno:
http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/384...ml#reply-38440
 
Old June 26th, 2008 #215
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EireannGoddess View Post
Bobby Mule is not a "proud German"; he is a proud mischling- ie, a jew that may or may not be "from Germany"
No, darling, I'm not Jewish. An uncle of mine, to whom I dedicated a feature under http://www.geocities.com/orion47.geo...uhlenkamp.html , fought and died for your beloved Führer in the Wehrmacht.

You should get used to the idea that one doesn't have to be Jewish to dislike your Nazi BS. All it takes is a little common sense and humanity.
 
Old June 26th, 2008 #216
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
OK, boiling this down even further...
… Gerdes’ posts # 212 and # 213 are essentially repetititions of the trash that he wrote in previous posts and has been commented before, last time in the following posts:

# 206 http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=206

# 207 http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=207

# 208 http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=208

# 209 http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=209

In the following I shall therefore only address what new "arguments" Gerdes has provided or what repeated BS I feel like addressing again, and for the rest refer our readers to my above-mentioned posts. Should Gerdes have "stricken" anything without having provided evidence that the exhibit in question was manipulated or is not related to any of the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps, his "striking" that exhibit is arbitrary and therefore not accepted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Sobibor:

The following is all the photographic documentation there is for the existence of the alleged “huge mass graves” of Sobibor which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), 250,000 jews were killed and, according to the alleged Kola archeological investigation, were buried in “7 huge mass graves” - one grave measuring 70 x 25 x 5 meters and six measuring 20 x 25 x 5 meters:

No known photographs of these alleged “huge mass graves” exist.
Comment on repeated Gerdian BS: Gerdes has not yet explained why an archeologist’s public description of his findings should be considered a mere allegation rather than an evidentiary documentation of evidence. And he still seems to think that something must have been published (preferably on the internet) in order to be in existence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
(Nor do any photos exist of Kola's alleged core samples allegedly taken from said graves.)
Comment on new Gerdian BS: If photos have not been published, this doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The following is all the photographic evidence there is of the human remains alleged to have been located in Sobibors “huge mass graves:”

http://www.undersobibor.org/excavation09.jpg
Comment on repeated Gerdian BS: for some reason (maybe because one of them shows too many human remains for his comfort), Gerdes has chosen to ignore the following Sobibor photographs:

2. A mound of the ashes of victims of the Sobibor extermination camp, at the remembrance site on the grounds of the camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5938_1_web.jpg

3. A mound of the remains of victims of the Sobibor extermination camp, at the remembrance site on the grounds of the camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5964_1_web.jpg

4. A glass display case containing ashes and bones of victims of the Sobibor extermination camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5968_1_web.jpg

5. Hair, bones and ashes found on the grounds of the Sobibor extermination camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...6238_1_web.jpg

6 Hair, bones and ashes in the area of the Sobibor extermination camp.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...6239_1_web.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And:

The alleged Shermer investigation:

There is no photographic proof what-so-ever that Michael Shermer so much as stepped foot into the Sobibor camp during his alleged “firsthand” investigation of / research in the Sobibor camp, in which he claims he proved, by “reviewing the physical evidence,” that 250,000 jews were killed there.
Comment on repeated Gerdian BS: Poor Gerdes seems to have an obsession with Mr. Shermer, for he keeps bringing up the fellow after I told him several times that I don’t care whether or not Shermer did such investigation, and even after I told him at least once where he could stick his "alleged Shermer investigation" crap. What he hasn’t yet done is identify the page of Shermer’s Denying History where Shermer is supposed to have claimed that «he proved, by "reviewing the physical evidence," that 250,000 jews were killed» at Sobibor. The only remote candidate for this claim I have found is the following excerpt from page 127:

Quote:
How can we distinguish between gas chambers used for delousing and gas chambers used for mass murder? How can we prove that the bodies disposed of in crematoria were murdered and had not just died of so-called natural causes like disease, starvation and overwork?
To find out, we went to Europe to conduct research at the camps, in particular at Mauthausen, Majdanek, Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, Dachau, Auschwitz, and Auschwitz-Birkenau. We wanted to see for ourselves just what evidence there is at the camps and to take the opportunity to examine firsthand the claims of David Cole, Robert Faurisson, and other deniers who specialize in this area. As we discovered, there is far more to the story than meets the eye through books and films alone.
Before we look at the evidence from the camps, consider in general how we might prove through a convergence of evidence from various sources that the Nazis used gas chambers and crematoria for mass murder:

1. Written documents – Orders for Zyklon B (the trade name of hydrocyanic acid, which is embedded in diatomaceous earth pellets), architectural blueprints, and orders for building materials for gas chambers and crematoria
2. Zyklon B traces – on the walls of the gas chambers at several camps
3. Eyewitness testimony – survivor testimonies, Jewish Sonderkommando diaries, and confessions of guards and commandants
4. Ground photographs – not only of the camps, but also of bodies burning (photos taken secretly and smuggled out of Auschwitz)
5. Aerial photographs – indicating prisoners being moved to the gas chamber/crematorium complexes, and matching those of ground photographs corroborating the structure of the gas chambers and crematoria
6. The extant ruins of the camps – examined in light of the above sources of evidence

In presenting these six lines of evidence, we are not saying that each or even any particular proves that gas chambers and crematoria were used for genocide. Rather, we are arguing that these lines of evidence converge on this conclusion. As we shall see, there were six extermination camps – with gas chambers and crematoria – involved in the Final Solution, resulting in a total of approximately 3,062,000 killed (see table I)
[…]
What the Nazis learned in the T4 program, along with subterfuge and secrecy and the methods of mass murder, was that the public would not tolerate such activities on German soil – for example, on August 3, 1941, Bishop Clemens Galen delivered a sermon in Münster in which he spoke out against the euthanasia program. As a result of public outcry, the Nazis located these six camps in the East, far from the watchful eyes of the German public and press. But the evidence to convict the murderers has not escaped history.
Are we asked to believe that Shermer here claims that «he proved, by "reviewing the physical evidence," that 250,000 jews were killed» at Sobibor?

Or did you have another page of Shermer’s Denying History in mind, Mr. Gerdes? If so, which?

Snip Chelmno BS, already addressed.

Snip Belzec BS, already addressed, up to the following silly question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
However, it has long been claimed that the following photos were taken at Belzec:

A - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5250_1_web.jpg

B - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5276_1_web.jpg

C - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5275_1_web.jpg

D - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5252_1_web.jpg

Are the above photos those that show the results of Godzieszewski's "investigation?"
I have no idea, but Gerdes is encouraged to contact the Ghetto Fighters House and asked them if this issue deprives him of sleep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Note: In summarizing his alleged investigation, Judge Czeslaw Godzieszewski claimed that the number of jews murdered and buried in the “huge mass graves” of Belzec was 1.8 million!
If so, the judge obviously overestimated the number of victims, which has no bearing on the accuracy of this description of the physical evidence found. But a source for Gerdes’ claim would nevertheless be in order, for he seems to be mixing up something here. On page 47 of his Belzec book, Mattogno wrote the following:

Quote:
On April 11, 1946, the Polish prosecutor at Zamosc, T. Chrósciewicz, summarized in a report the results of his investigations on the Belzec camp and wrote on the subject of the number of victims:114

“The total number of transports of Jews taken to Belzec amounted to some 500, with 439 having come from the direction of Rawa Ruska and 57 from the direction of Zawada. The average number of persons in one transport was 3,500. Multiplying this figure by the number of transports, i.e. 500, and adding the 100,000 persons taken to the Belzec camp by trucks, one can arrive at a total number of some 1,800,000 persons who were murdered at Belzec.”
Looks like it was not Examining Judge Czeslaw Godzieszewski who made this overestimate, put Public Prosecutor T. Chrósciewicz.

Snip BS about Prof. Kola’s archeological investigation, already addressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
3 - The alleged Shermer investigation, in which he claims to have proven the existence of 30 “huge mass graves” - all 100 x 25 x 15 meters:

No known photographs of the alleged 30 “huge mass graves” exist.

Note: Each of the 30 “huge mass graves” allegedly proven to exist by Shermer, were once claimed to have held 100,000 dead jews each.
Particularly amusing repeated BS, with a new big fat straw-man.

The new big fat straw-man is Gerdes’ reference to the wildly overblown estimate made by eyewitness Rudolf Reder, which not even prosecutor Chrósciewicz (see above) seem to have taken seriously. Even Mattogno was honest enough to mention the documented number of deportees to Belzec, though he only dedicated a single sentence to it after making a big fuss about higher numbers. On page 50 of Mattogno’s Belzec book, we read the following:

Quote:
According to German sources, the number of Jews deported to Belzec was 434,508.
This figure, which comes from Höfle’s report to Heim of 11 January 1943 (see under http://www.death-camps.org/reinhard/prodecodes.html ) , has been pointed out to Gerdes more than once. Yet our straw-men-loving friend keeps bringing up obvious overestimates, because they are better to make a fuss about. What a charlatan.

As to the Shermer baloney, see the above quote from Shermer's book and related questions, which of course apply to Belzec as well.

Snip BS about Avi Weiss’s article under http://www.hir.org/amcha/belzec.html , already addressed.

Snip the O’Neill video BS, already addressed.

Snip Treblinka BS, already addressed, up to the following silly questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Why didn’t the Soviets do any digging in the alleged burial area, where the vast majority of the alleged 870,000 dead jews were allegedly buried?
Probably because the eyewitnesses they questioned, whose testimonies in this respect were corroborated by the aspect of the site (relevant parts of the Soviet investigation report quoted in post # 172 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=172 , exhibit A.3.1.2), told them that what they would find underground would be not much different from what they saw above ground, and they saw no point in digging for ashes, bone fragments and other partial remains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
They allegedly “relentlessly interviewed” 12 “eyewitnesses” before they commenced their “investigation.”
Exactly, see above. And it’s amusing to note how afraid Gerdes is of eyewitness testimonies. Why else would he introduce the caveat that the Soviets "allegedly" interrogated eyewitnesses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Why did they have to resort to digging in the cemetery a mile away in order to locate any corpses? – And only 318 at that!)
They didn’t "resort" to anything, they just dug where other evidence suggested that they would find whole dead bodies. And that was not in the area of Treblinka II, where they expected to find only ashes, bone fragments and other partial remains. It was in the area of Treblinka I labor camp, as I explained in my post # 132 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=132 .

Snip list of photographs confirmed or presumed to belong to the investigation headed by Examining Judge Lukaszkiewicz that was carried out between 9 and 13 November 1945.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
That's supposed to be photographic "proof" of the murder of 870,000 jews?
No, asshole. Nobody said that photographs prove mass murder. They cannot possibly do so, already because they can capture but a fraction of the physical evidence, at least when it comes to massacres of this size and there has furthemore been a concerted effort to destroy as much of the evidence as possible. Neither did anyone say that the physical evidence described in site investigation reports proves mass murder, at least not on its own. The Poles were more reasonable than trying to quantify the number of victims based on the ashes, bone fragments, bones, skulls and other partial remains they found on site. They looked at what documentary and eyewitness evidence could serve as a basis for estimating the number of dead. From the Report about the Treblinka Extermination Camp by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland, online under http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gcpoltreb1.htm:

Quote:
An accurate calculation of the number of victims is at present impossible. It will be remembered that Treblinka

p.103

ceased its activities in the autumn of 1943, so that the German authorities had enough time to wipe out the traces of their crimes. The most reliable method of counting the number of victims is by counting the number of train-loads. The figures based on the dimensions of the gas chambers give no guarantee whatever of accuracy, as we do not know, firstly, how often the gas-chambers were used, and, secondly, the number of people who, on an average, were gassed at any one time. In establishing the number of train-loads, the commission based its findings on the evidence given by the witnesses, laying special stress on the statements of the railway workers and on the railway records from Treblinka station, which are in the possession of the commission of enquiry.

The most active period seems to have been from August to the middle of December, 1942. During that time we may assume one daily train-load as unquestionable according to the evidence of the railway-workers. Indeed four witnesses put the figure at two per day. After that, from the middle of January to the middle of May, 1943, the average was probably one a week. Some of the witnesses put the figure at three.

The average number of wagons in a transport was 50 through sometimes, as the railway records showed, it was as many as 58.

The total number of wagon-loads of victimls from August 1, 1942, to May 15, 1943, may be taken, with some certainty, to have been 7,550.

In the later period, from the railway records; the list of the wagons for August 17, 1943; a telegram of August 18, 1943; and a document entitled Fahrplanordnung Nr. 290 sent from Treblinka station by the Reichsbahndirektion Königsberg, the number of train-loads could be established quite accurately.

In the above-mentioned Fahrplanordnung we read among ather things: Zur Abbeförderung von Aussledlern verkehren

p.104

folgende Sonderzüge von Bialystok nach Malkinia. Ziel Treblinka, from which it may be concluded that after the revolt the following train-loads, were brought in: on Aug. 27, 1943, 41 wagons; on Aug. 19, 35 wagons; on Aug. 21, two transports of 38 wagons each; on Aug. 22, two transports of 39 wagons each; and on Aug. 23, one transport of 38 wagons; i. e. a total of 266 wagons.

As an average number of persons per wagon we may take 100 (the majority of witnesses deposed that it was more than 150).

According to this calculation the number of victims murdered at Treblinka amounts to at least 731,600. Taking into consideration the great caution with which the investigators assessed the number of train-loads and the average number of persons per wagon, this must be accepted as probable, that in actual fact the number of victims was even larger1. (1It should be pointed out that from pertinent documents such as telegrams, time-tables and way-bills it appears absolutely certain that more than two thousand wagon-loads of Jews were brought to Treblinka; yet these documents constituted but a small part of all the railway documentary evidence, the greater part of which is lost.)
The Central Commission’s estimate of at least 731,600 victims is remarkably accurate, even conservative if we consider that, according to Höfle’s report to Heim of 11 January 1943, no less than 713,555 Jews had been delivered at Treblinka by the end of 1942 already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Where are all the other photos?
How am I supposed to know?

And assuming there are no other photographs, so what? The ones available to us match the site description in Lukaszkiewicz reports of 13 November and 29 December 1945, relevant excerpts quoted in my post # 172 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=172 (exhibit A.3.1.4). So also under this aspect there’s no reason to doubt the accuracy of these site investigation reports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
No wonder they didn’t want any international observers present during the “investigation.”
Why, did intenational observers apply, and were they rejected? I didn’t know that. Your source, Gerdes?

And as to a crime committed on Polish soil being investigated by Polish criminal justice authorities, who does the investigation when they bump someone off in Missoula, Ma., Mr. Gerdes?

Snip BS about the site investigation in 1947 by a commission in Warsaw including Mr. Karol Ogrodowczyk, whose description of the site and the robbery digging is quoted in my post # 172 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=172 (exhibit A.1.3.5).

Also snip more horseshit about Shermer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
5 – The photos of the alleged "huge craters" from "the time when the "grave robbers" allegedly used bombs for "extraction." Remember this quote from Martyna Rusiniak: "The young historian shows us photos of the largest postwar excavation sites. The pits have a length of ten meters, one of them looks like the construction pit of a several-story building."):
Not that I think there is a reason to doubt the well-documented fact of robbery-digging or the above-quoted description of the photographs mentioned, but I’d also like to see these photographs. That’s why I’ll try to contact Mrs. Martyna Rusiniak herself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
These allegedly known photographs, for some inexplicable reason, have never been published. (Why haven’t these alleged photos been scanned and uploaded onto the WWW?)
An amazing load of crap, even considering who it comes from.

Not every photo that is known to Polish historians is also necessarily published (especially when it comes to a subject as sensitive in Poland as robbery-digging on extermination camp sites).

Not every photo that is published in Poland is also necessarily published outside Poland.

And not every photo that is published anywhere in the world is also necessarily available on the Internet.

These two photos, for instance, would probably not be on the internet and not even be known outside Poland if I had not become interested in the Polish newspaper article featuring them:





Get a brain, Gerdes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
6 -The following is all the photographic documentation there is for the claim of Martin Gilbert who allegedly, in a 1959 visit to the Treblinka site - “driven by I know not what impulse, I ran my hand through that soil, again and again. The earth beneath my feet was coarse and sharp: filled with the fragments of human bone:"
Thanks for introducing a new element of evidence on my behalf, Gerdes. The consistency of the soil described by Gilbert seems to be just as described in the Polish site investigation report of 13.11.1945:

Quote:
The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form.
and of 29.12.1945:

Quote:
In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition.
and as what these photographs suggest it was like:





Doesn’t especially the last photograph look just like what Mr. Gilbert ran his hand through, Gerdes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
No known photographs of the alleged field “filled with the fragments of human bone" exist.
Maybe none by Gilbert, but see those above.

As we’re at it, let’s have a complete and sourced quote of Gilbert’s description:

From Alex Bay’s The Reconstruction of Treblinka, section link http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...graphyp2.shtml :

Quote:
In 1959 Martin Gilbert and a Polish friend drove by car to Malkinia Junction. They could not cross the Bug River Bridge. It had been destroyed in 1944 and not rebuilt. A peasant was hailed who ferried them across and then carried them by horse cart to the camp. Gilbert describes the trip: "From Treblinka village we proceeded for another mile or two, along the line of an abandoned railway through a forest of tall trees. Finally we reached an enormous clearing, bounded on all sides by dense woodland. Darkness was falling, and with it, the chill of night and a cold dew. I stepped down from the cart on to the sandy soil: a soil that was gray rather than brown. Driven by I know not what impulse, I ran my hand through that soil, again and again. The earth beneath my feet was coarse and sharp: filled with the fragments of human bone." (Reference 10, p17)
Reference 10 is the following:

Quote:
10. Gilbert, Martin, The Holocaust. Henry Holt and Company, 118 West 18th Street, NY, NY 10011
How about learning to provide the sources of your quotes, Mr. Gerdes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Yes folks, that is all the physical evidence there is for the alleged murder of 2,040,000 jews and the fraudulent claims that this alleged murder has been proven via archeological "investigations."
No, those are just photographic records showing a fraction of the physical evidence that is comprehensively described in site investigation reports and archeological reports you either ignore or baselessly call "fraudulent" because you have no arguments against their accuracy. And only a dumb fuck like Gerdes would claim that mass murder, especially on this scale, can be proven on hand of physical evidence alone, without looking at documentary and eyewitness evidence such as listed in my post # 172 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=172 .

Ah, and the figure is not 2,040,000. The documented death toll of Chelmno (ca. 150,000), Belzec (ca. 430,000), Sobibor (ca. 150,000) and Treblinka (ca. 750,000) adds up to about 1,480,000 victims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The "investigations" and the "investigators" are as fraudulent as the original claims of mass murder.
Where are we supposed to see fraudulence here, Mr. Gerdes? You haven’t shown any. Are the forensic and archeological investigations conducted supposed to be fraudulent just because related photography has not or not wholly been published, or because photographs show only a fraction of the physical evidence described in the respective reports? Bullshit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And this is as far as I can boil down the issue of the fraudulent archeological “investigations” of the alleged “pure extermination centers” at the moment. (Because of Roberta’s relentless whining and to be as fair and balance as I possibley can, I did relent and include some photos that I had stricken earlier.)
Cut the crap, asshole. As you well know, my case is not built on photographs, which I consider essentially nothing more than illustrations of the physical evidence. And as even a dumb fuck like Gerdes should have understood by now, you don't get to arbitrarily "strike" anything. The only exhibits you may exclude are such that have been demonstrably manipulated or are demonstrably not related to any of the camps we are talking about.

Gerdes’ post # 213 seems to be a copy-and-paste repetition of # 212, except for the last piece of Gerdian wisdom:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The “pure extermination centers” were simply the WMD’s of WW II. Get used to the fact.
I didn’t know there’s unequivocal Iraqi documentation of the WMD’s like there is German documentation of deportations to the AR camps, of what these camps were for (see the quotes from Goebbels’ diary entry of 27 March 1942 and from the Stroop Report in my post # 172 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=172 ) and of what it was like to live near one of them (see in the same post the quote of the Wehrmacht OK Ostrow’s complaint about the unbearable stench of corpses emanating from Treblinka).

I also didn’t know there were dozens of eyewitnesses to the existence of these WMD’s, largely including the fellows responsible for their construction and/or deployment, like there are dozens of eyewitness testimonies to the mass killing at the AR camps, including such that were subject to cross-examinaton before West German courts and such from participants in the mass killing sentenced by West German courts.

I also didn’t know there were post-US invasion descriptions of Iraqi WMDs by site investigators, archeologists and others, such as the Treblinka reports I mentioned in my post # 172 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=172 (exhibits A.3.1.1 to A.3.1.6), the report of Prof. Kola’s archeological investigation at Belzec, discussed in my article starting under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...on-belzec.html , and examining judge Czeslaw Godzieszewski’s Belzec site investigation report discussed in, among others, my post # 208 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=208 .

I didn’t know there were photographs of traces or leftovers of the Iraqi WMDs, like there are photographs of the AR killing sites and of ashes, bones and other remains thereon.

I furthermore didn’t know there’s an absence of evidence pointing to a scenario other than the actual existence of the WMD’s, like there’s a total lack of evidence suggesting that the camps in question were the "transit camps" you would like them to have been.

And, last but not least, I didn’t know anyone, especially criminal investigators and historians, concluded that the Iraqi WMDs were a proven fact, or for that matter that anyone still believed in the WMD’s existence after, say, one year following the start of the US invasion of Iraq. The WMD hoax was rather quickly and clearly exposed as such.

So I’d say your comparison sucks, my friend.

But then, what of all you have produced in this discussion does not suck?
 
Old June 26th, 2008 #217
EireannGoddess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberto Muehlenkamp View Post
No, darling, I'm not Jewish. An uncle of mine, to whom I dedicated a feature under http://www.geocities.com/orion47.geo...uhlenkamp.html , fought and died for your beloved Führer in the Wehrmacht.

You should get used to the idea that one doesn't have to be Jewish to dislike your Nazi BS. All it takes is a little common sense and humanity.
I then formally rescind I suppose the mischling claim - you are something much worse, a disgrace to the German Folk; particularly your Uncle. Also, I would like to take opportunity to make a correction - Bobby Mule and I did not debate krematoria, ect - I've just remembered that was between myself and the erstwhile "Jango Reinhart" and the rather forgettable "Liesandshite"

Bobby Mule's posts on Sf were as they are here, lengthy; rote, bellicose, full of meaningless verbiage - decadent intellectual masturbation; and in the end self-absorbed.

Worse than a mischling, he is -apparently- if one is to believe and take at face value that he is related to the man he claims as Uncle, a spiritual jew - and an example of the excellent propaganda perpetrated against Germans of The Reich as well as their descendants. Bobby Mule is quite the jewish success story! A poster boy for juden of sorts.
 
Old June 26th, 2008 #218
ced smythe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberto Muehlenkamp View Post
Is this hollow speculative gibberish and furious invective supposed to be an argument against the reliability of this source's description of the physical evidence, CS?

Or are you just trying to let off steam?

I'd say it's the latter.
A rabbi's sentimental description of what he claims to have seen is not physical evidence.

Gibberish... furious invective...let off steam? It's your feelings on parade in this thread, Berty.

Quote:
And if you claim that all prosecution evidence I have shown is from Jews you're not a very attentive reader. These exhibits listed in my post # 206 are mostly if not exclusively contemporary Nazi documents or assessments thereof by a West German court, or testimonies of participants in the killing, mostly before West German criminal justice authorities:

3. Letter by Willy Just to Walter Rauff dated 5 June 1942, regarding gas van operations at Chelmno extermination camp:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/194...-spezialwagen/

4. Letter by Gauleiter Arthur Greiser to Himmler dated 1 May 1942, mentioning the "special treatment" of 100,000 Jews from his district about to be completed, and requesting permission to treat 35,000 Poles with open tuberculosis in the same manner:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...r-greiser.html

5. Further documents about the murderous purpose of "Sonderkommando Lange":
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...urpose-of.html

6. Eyewitness testimonies about the use of gas vans at Chelmno: http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/384...ml#reply-38440

7. Excerpt from the judgment at the trial against former members of the Chelmno staff before District Court of Bonn, German Federal Republic, mentioning the documentary evidence used by the court to establish the number of people killed at Chelmno:
http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/384...ml#reply-38440
The only place where killing or murder is implied in these articles is in the neurotic annotations of the Jew presenting them.
 
Old June 26th, 2008 #219
Greg Gerdes
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OK folks, I think you can all see what I'm doing and how I'm doing it. I included the Belzec, Chelmno & Sobibor recaps so everyone could see how this all fits together.

BUT - We need to get back to Treblinka alone because we have now boiled this down to the two most important ALLEGED archeological / forensic investigations of Treblinka - The Soviet and Polish "investigations." (We will also set aside for the moment the Shermer and Warsaw comminsion "investigations.")

So, I will do a final recap for Belzec, Chelmno and Sobibor, then move back to talking about Treblinka alone.

* * * * *

The following is all the photographic documentation there is of the alleged archeological / forensic investigations allegedly conducted at the alleged industrial killing centers of:

*

Sobibor:

The following is all the photographic documentation there is for the existence of the alleged “huge mass graves” of Sobibor which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), 250,000 jews were killed and, according to the alleged Kola archeological investigation, were buried in “7 huge mass graves” - one grave measuring 70 x 25 x 5 meters and six measuring 20 x 25 x 5 meters:

No known photographs of these alleged “huge mass graves” exist.

(Nor do any photos exist of Kola's alleged core samples allegedly taken from said graves.)


The following is all the photographic evidence there is of the human remains alleged to have been located in Sobibors “huge mass graves:”

http://www.undersobibor.org/excavation09.jpg

And:

The alleged Shermer investigation:

There is no photographic proof what-so-ever that Michael Shermer so much as stepped foot in the Sobibor camp during his alleged “firsthand” investigation of / research in the Sobibor camp, in which he claims he proved, by “reviewing the physical evidence,” that 250,000 jews were killed there.


*

Chelmno:

The following is all the photographic documentation there is for the existence of the alleged “huge mass graves” of Chelmno which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), 320,000 jews were killed and, according to the alleged Gorczyca archeological investigation, were buried in “huge mass graves.”

Note: Though no specific figure has been given for the number of “huge mass graves” allegedly located at Chelmno, we are told that – “in a large field of open excavations,” there are - “some over a hundred feet long.” (Scroll down to the bottom photo):

http://www.zchor.org/extermination/pits.htm

And:

http://www.thejewishpress.com/Upload.../chelmno-1.gif


The following is all the photographic evidence there is of the human remains alleged to have been located in Chelmnos “huge mass graves:”
http://www.death-camps.org/occupatio...gchelmno06.jpg


*

Belzec:

The following is all the photographic documentation there is for the existence of the alleged “huge mass graves” of Belzec which, according to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), 600,000 jews were killed and, according to the alleged investigations of:

1 – The alleged investigation of Czeslaw Godzieszewski, in which he claims to have excavated 9 pits - the largest allegedly being - 10 x 10 x 8 meters:

No known photographs of the alleged 9 excavated pits exist.

However, it has long been claimed that the following photos were taken at Belzec:

A – http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5250_1_web.jpg

B – http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5276_1_web.jpg

C – http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5275_1_web.jpg

D – http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5252_1_web.jpg

Are the above photos those that show the results of Godzieszewski's "investigation?"

Note: At the time of Godzieszewski's “investigation,” it was being claimed by the Soviets / jews that 3 million jews had been murdered and buried at Belzec – THREE MILLION!


2 – The alleged kola investigation, in which he claims to have proven the existence of 33 “huge mass graves” - the largest allegedly being “grave # 10” at - 24 x 18 x 5 meters:

No known photographs of the alleged 33 “huge mass graves” exist.

(Nor do any photos exist of Kola's alleged core samples allegedly taken from said graves.)


3 - The alleged Shermer investigation, in which he claims to have proven the existence of 30 “huge mass graves” - all 100 x 25 x 15 meters:

No known photographs of the alleged 30 “huge mass graves” exist.

Note: Each of the 30 “huge mass graves” allegedly proven to exist by Shermer, were once claimed by the Soviets / jews to have held 100,000 dead jews each.


Also note: Robin O’Neil (who claims 800,000 jews are buried at Belzec) has yet to release the alleged videos which he claims he took while participating in the Kola “investigation.”

There “pure extermination centers” were simply the WMDs of WWII. Get used to the fact.
 
Old June 26th, 2008 #220
Greg Gerdes
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OK, now back to Treblinka only and, more specifically, the ALLEGED archeological / forensic investigations of the Soviets / Poles and Poles / jews. Everything that needs to be discussed at this point, to the best of my present knowledge, can be found in the following from this site: http://vho.org/GB/Books/t/

Specifically, these portions of this chapter (I've edited some out for brevity, but that doesn't mean that we aren't discussing all of parts 1,2 &3):

Chapter III:
Investigations - parts one, two and three

1. Soviet Investigations and Forensic Examinations

In the middle of August 1944, the 65th Soviet Army conquered the region around Treblinka. The Military Examining Judge of the Military Office of Prosecution First Lieutenant of Justice Jurowski went to work immediately, supported by other officers - Major Kononjuk, Major V.S. Apresjan, First Lieutenant F.A. Rodionov, Major M.E. Golovan, and Lieutenant N.V. Kadalo - and carried out investigations between August 15 and 23 on the grounds of the camps Treblinka I and Treblinka II. He furthermore questioned witnesses: Samuel Rajzman, Lucjan Puchała, Marianna Kobus, Stanisław Zdonek, Barbara Zemkiewicz, Józef Pukaszek, Stanisław Kon, Mieczysław Anyszkiewicz, Tadeusz Kann, Franciszek Wesolowski, Max Lewit, and Kazimierz Skarzyński.


On August 24, 1944, a commission composed of the Soviet officers previously named as well as representatives of the local Polish authorities produced the first official report concerning the camps Treblinka I and II. With respect to Treblinka II it says there:

"The camp Treblinka II was an enormous death combine. The death factory, in which the SS-men ruthlessly and zealously exterminated millions of people, was in operation around the clock for 13 months, from July 1942 until September 1943.

Martyrs of the camp who were left with their lives tell that... While traveling they were dying of hunger. There was no water. They drank urine.

The statements of the witnesses, the book 'One Year in Treblinka' [by Jankiel Wiernik], the presence of a large quantity of ashes and cinders, the presence of personal commodities and documents strewn on the grounds as well as excavated from the pits confirm that there were ovens in the camp where people were cremated. In the beginning, the Germans buried the bodies of the murdered. After Himmler had visited the camp, the bodies were dug up with an excavator and cremated.

At the present it is difficult to uncover the traces and secrets of this oven for the cremation of people, but based upon the available data, one can picture it.

The oven - this was a large trench 250-300 m in length, 20-25 m in width and 5-6 m deep, excavated by an excavator. Driven into the bottom of the ditch were three rows of reinforced concrete posts, one-and-a-half m in height each. The posts were connected to one another by cross-beams. On these cross-beams rails were placed at intervals of 5 to 7 cm. That was a gigantic oven grill.

The Germans attempted to delete the traces of their atrocities. Remaining as marks of the existence of the camp are: an abatis of barbed wire, ashes, cinders, and a great number of pits, where household objects of the cremated Jews have been buried."

The report ends with six "conclusions," of which the most important is the first:

"On the basis of the preliminary facts, the cremation of people has been determined with no doubt. The extent of the extermination of people was monstrous: about three million."

On September 11, a "Report of the front-line press TASS" was compiled, which bore the title "The Death Camp in Tremblinka" (sic). We reproduce the most significant excerpts: "Tremblinka! At this word people tremble and look fearfully sideways. People who lived in the vicinity of Tremblinka could not sleep at night: the screams of men, women, and children whom they were murdering ripped through the darkness. The stench penetrated from there. They were burning people there.

On the 15th of September, a Polish-Soviet commission, consisting of Magister P. Sobolevski, the Secretary of the Polish-Soviet Commission for the Revelation of German Crimes, M. Chodzko, the representative of the information and propaganda department of a Polish institute, as well as G.E. Levakov, the representative of the War Soviet of the 2nd Byelorussian Front, composed a "protocol of a provisional preliminary investigation and reconnaissance in the former concentration camp Tremblinka," in which the recent investigations of Soviet military justice were summarized, and from which we cite some excerpts:

The concentration camp Tremblinka consisted of two sections, which were at a distance of one-and-a-half kilometers from each other. The first section was named 'Death Camp No. 2.' This camp itself, on whose grounds two burned-down farm buildings can now be found, broke down into two parts, and a railroad track led to this Camp No. 2. Here, something along the lines of a train station was constructed in order to disguise the actual mission - the extermination. A three-fold barbed wire abatis was camouflaged with tree branches. For this reason the people taken here believed initially that they were at a transit point on their journey to the east.

In the winter of 1943, the German murderers proceeded to exhume and burn the corpses. For this purpose they also used an excavator. The personal documents found here, torn into pieces and thrown away, prove that citizens of Poland, of the Soviet Union, of Czechoslovakia and other nations, members of the intelligentsia as well as simple workers, were killed here.

The objects found bear witness to the fact that here men, women, and children of every age were interned in entire families. The things found, like, for example, violin parts, children's toys, devices for waving the hair [hair curlers], books and the like, show that many came to this place who did not suspect the destination of their journey. Pieces of burned and destroyed passports confirm that citizens from Poland, the USSR, Czechoslovakia, and other nations occupied by the Germans were interned here."

2. Polish Investigations and Forensic Examinations

After the conclusion of the previously described investigations, the Treblinka matter was allowed to rest for more than a year. But the preparations for the Nuremberg Trial awakened the interest of the Jewish Central Historical Commission as well as of the Polish State Prosecutor's office for that camp. On November 6, 1945, the latter carried out an inspection trip to Treblinka, in which participated: Rachel Auerbach and Józef Kermisz as representatives of the said Jewish Commission, Judge Zdzisław Łukaszkiewicz, State Prosecutor J. Maciejewski, land surveyor K. Trautsolt, the witnesses Samuel Rajzman, Tanhum Grinberg, Szimon Friedman, and M. Mittelberg - all members of the Association of Former Treblinka Inmates - J. Slebczak, President of the district council of Siedlce, Major Jucharek from the neighboring village of Wólka Okrąglik, and finally photographer Jakob Byk.[204] In January 1946, R. Auerbach described the inspection as follows:[205]

"Our car came to a stop. We got out: this was where the camp area began. According to our measurements, it is 15 hectares. A well-paved road runs parallel to the railroad tracks for about 11/2 kilometers and then comes to a dead end. Another road branches out from it and comes to an end even sooner. The surface of both roads contains a weird mixture of coal and ashes from the pyres where the corpses of the inmates were cremated.

While the Germans were still here, the whole area had been plowed up and sown with lupine grass. And the lupine grass really grew and covered the whole surface with a green mask. It looked as if all the traces of crime had been wiped away. But since then, during the past year, the human jackals and hyenas have been coming to the burial ground and here is the picture that we saw:

Here and there, like patches of grass near the seashore, half-covered by the shifting sands, there were still little clumps of withered lupine. Not one level place in the whole area. Everything had been torn up and dug up, little hills and holes. And upon them, beneath them and among them, all sorts of objects. Aluminum kettles and pans, enameled tin pots - blackened, dented, full of holes. Combs with teeth broken off, half-rotted soles from ladies' summer sandals, broken mirrors, leather briefcases. All this is near the station platform where the camp's first barbed wire fences had been.

We began our tour at the place where the transports had been unloaded and we continued on the road which the Jews who were brought here had followed. What we saw here was the remnants of the Treblinka 'Werterfassung'. Remnants of the huge piles of Jewish property, which had been packed up and sent away, incinerated, cleared off, and yet still could not be completely cleared away. It was not possible to clear away every trace of what the hundreds of thousands of people who had passed through here had experienced. Here was the physical evidence, here were the corpora delicti

But the physical evidence was not limited to objects. As we moved farther into the grounds, we walked over a field which was sown with human bones.

The bombs had revealed the contents of the desecrated soil. Leg bones, ribs, pieces of the spine, skulls big and small, short and long, round and flat.

Skulls!... If only we could get an ethnologist to come here!

We were now standing where the gas chambers had been, the huge mass graves and the pyres. In some places, the smell of death was still mingled with the odor of fire. Indeed, here and there we could see little piles of white ashes along with blackened bones, heaps of soot. All this had been buried several meters deep in the soil, mixed with sand and covered with more sand, but the explosions had brought it to the surface again. In one place the simultaneous explosion of several bombs had created a huge crater. Deep down in the hole, some outlines could be dimly seen through the fog.

'Those aren't just bones,' explained the District Attorney. 'There are still pieces of half-rotted corpses lying there, bunches of intestines.'

By now, the district attorney and the judge knew every nook and cranny here. They had been conducting their investigations for some time. They had examined both Jewish and non-Jewish witnesses, taken measurements and carried out minor excavations."

For the purpose of performing an official investigation of the scene of the crime, Judge Łukaszkiewicz had gone to Treblinka. As he later explained, he acted:

"[...] at the request of the State Prosecutor of the District Court in Siedlce of September 24, 1945, further induced by a letter of September 18, 1945, of the Main Commission for the Investigation of the German Murders in Poland."

Between November 9 and 13, he undertook a thorough examination of the grounds as well as a series of excavations. Afterwards he composed an official protocol, which we reproduce in full in view of its significance:[207]

"Protocol of the tasks performed on the grounds of the death camp Treblinka, which forms the object of the judicial examination.

From November 9 to 13, 1945, the examining magistrate of Siedlce, Z. Łukaszkiewicz, together with the State Attorney for the District Court of Siedlce, J. Maciejewski, performed the following tasks on the camp grounds:

November 9, 1945

Excavations were begun on the grounds using the services of 20 workers who had been mustered by the village administration for carrying out roadwork. The excavations began at the location described by the witness Rajzman on November 6, where the so-called 'camp hospital' had stood and where, according to the witness, a mass grave is supposed to exist.

* Note - This is the alleged "lazarette," where every "eyewitness" has claimed that tens and tens of thousands of jews were allegedly shot and "burned" in the pit.

Since a bomb crater 4 to 5-meter deep is present at the said location - two bombs still lie at a slight distance from this crater - the digging was begun in this crater. In the course of this work numerous Polish, as well as Russian, German, Austrian, and Czech coins as well as broken pieces of various kinds of containers were discovered. At the end of the work, at approximately 3 pm, at a depth of 6 meters, we encountered a layer which had not been reached previously. There were no human remains found.

November 10, 1945

The work was continued, with 36 workers assigned who had been commandeered for roadwork. At a depth of 6 meters begins a layer which has never before been uncovered by anyone. It consists partly of all sorts of kitchen utensils and different kinds of household objects; there are also pieces of clothing. At a depth of 7 meters, we reached the floor of the pit - a layer of yellow sand which is not mixed with gravel. By means of expansion of the excavation we succeeded in determining the shape of the pit. It has sloping walls, and the bottom measures about 1.5 meters [sic!]. The pit was presumably excavated with an excavator. During the course of the excavations, numerous more or less badly damaged Polish documents were discovered, further a badly damaged personal identity card of a German Jew, as well as several more coins: Polish, German, Russian, Belgian, and even American. After we had made certain that this pit, filled with broken pieces of the containers mentioned, ran in a north-south direction on the grounds of the camp area - 2 meters more [in a northerly direction] had been excavated - the workers started work at this location.

* Note - Not one mention of a single bullet, a single shell casing, a single bone, a single pound of crushed bone, not mention of so much as a single tooth in a pit that was alleged to have been the final resting place of what? 50 - 100 thousand jews?

November 11, 1945

A series of test excavations were performed at the place where the [gas] chambers had to have been located, in order to find their foundation walls if possible. Pits 10 - 15 meters in length and 1.5 meters deep were dug. Undisturbed layers of earth were uncovered by this.

The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters - its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains - was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.

November 13, 1945

With the assistance of 30 workers employed for roadwork, the opening of a pit was begun - a site where refuse was deposited in the northeastern section of the camp. In this location, as the workers from the nearby hamlets explained, a very large number of documents were found up till now. Work was begun at this location where the people [of that area] had dug a three-meter-deep pit in a search for gold. During the course of the digging, broken pieces of all sorts of kitchen containers as well as a large number of rags were continually found. Aside from the coins discovered so far, Greek, Slovakian, and French ones were found, as well as documents in Hebrew and Polish and remnants of a Soviet passport. At a depth of 5 meters the work was stopped due to the steadily worsening weather conditions.

The Examining Judge The State Attorney

Łukaszkiewicz Maciejewski

Decision:

The Examining Judge of Siedlce, on November 13, 1945, rules in consideration of the fact that with great probability no mass graves are any longer to be found on the grounds of the former camp today, as is to be concluded from the witness testimonies examined so far and from the results of the works carried out at the site, and in consideration of the oncoming autumn, the present rainfall and the necessity of a rapid conclusion of the judicial preliminary investigations, in view of all these facts to stop the work on the territory of the former death camp Treblinka.

The Examining Judge

Łukaszkiewicz."

On December 29, 1945, after the conclusion of his preliminary investigations, Łukaszkiewicz issued a protocol with 14 paragraphs, which - as already mentioned - was presented by the Soviets at the Nuremberg Trial as Document USSR-344. In the third paragraph, which bears the title "Current condition of the camp terrain", it says the following:

"With the assistance of an expert land surveyor and witnesses, I made an exact inspection of the terrain. According to the measurements, the area of the camp is approximately 13.45 hectares and had the shape of an irregular quadrilateral. No remnants of facilities of the former death camp exist any longer. The only things that remain of the structures are: a ditch with remains of burned wooden poles protruding up, which lead into the cellar, wall bricks from the foundations of the camp's domestic economics building and the site of the well. Here and there one finds traces of the burned-out wooden poles of the fence and remains of barbed wire. There are also some sections of paved walks that remain. Nonetheless, there are still other traces that hint at the existence and functions of the camp. In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay. In the southwestern direction, a portion of the camp terrain is covered by aluminum - enamel - glass and porcelain dishes - kitchen utensils - hand luggage - rucksacks - pieces of clothing, etc. There are innumerable holes and craters on the property."

Łukaszkiewicz summarized the investigations carried out a month earlier at that location as follows:

"During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves, which, in connection with the statements by the witnesses Romanowski and Wiernik, leads to the conclusion that nearly all of the bodies of the victims were burned, all the more so since the camp was liquidated early and the murderers had much time.

On August 9 and 10, 1946, Łukaszkiewicz, along with the surveyor Trautsolt and the court physician Wakulicz, searched for mass graves in the area of the camp Treblinka I. In the forest by the village of Maliszewa, about 500 m south of the camp, a total of 41 mass graves were found, of which 40 had been desecrated; many bodies were strewn around them. One grave was only partially violated, and from it 10 corpses were able to be recovered. The court physician examined 112 skulls and determined that only in two cases a shot in the head had been the cause of death. The entire surface of the graves amounted to 1,607 m2. Concerning the number of the bodies discovered, Łukaszkiewicz wrote:

"Due to the destruction of the graves, it is not possible to count the bodies which have been there. The medical expert Mieczysław Piotrowski affirms, however, that one grave of 2 × 1 × 1 m (without taking into consideration the upper level of earth which covers the bodies) contains at least 6 nude bodies. Considering the size of all 41 graves, and under the assumption that the levels of corpses reach only up to 1.5 m in depth (the depth of the graves is up to 3 m), one can calculate that at least 6,500 people were buried there."

Note: Are there any photos of this?

On this occasion, the surveyor Trautsolt drew a map of the area of Treblinka I, on which he indicated the exact position of the graves.[[212]] Of these, 17 were aligned in a row in a north-south direction; their total length was approximately 510 m.

This report provokes the following reflections:

It may well be that a grave of 2 m × 1 m × 1 m can hold up to six bodies, but these measurements correspond to an entirely normal single grave. If one wished to dig mass graves, these would not have been merely one meter wide. Until evidence to the contrary, it is therefore to be assumed that such a grave contained only one body.

These (mass-)graves could have been violated only in the period between October 1944 and August 1946, thus by the Poles, the Soviets, or by both simultaneously - but for what reason?

If merely the remains of 122 people were found there, as the Polish judge remarks, where, then, were those of the other ca. 6,400?

The likeliest supposition would be that the bodies were dug up by the local authorities and buried at the cemetery of the nearby village, possibly also in the vicinity of the camp, where there is still a cemetery today. In this case, it would of course have been strange that Łukaszkiewicz had heard nothing of it. But there is yet another, more disturbing explanation, to which we shall later return: the alleged violation was presumably done in order to be able to exaggerate the number of victims of Treblinka I. If one takes the three mass graves found by the Soviets in August 1944 as a comparison, then the 41 graves, at the same density, would have been able to hold at most 3,000 bodies. On the other hand, Łukaszkiewicz had carelessly written in his report of December 29, 1945, that

"in this camp [Treblinka I] approximately 50,000 Poles and Jews were killed."

One further question suggests itself: Who were the dead in Treblinka I? One knows with certainty that a typhus epidemic was raging in that camp in the fall of 1943. In fact, a list was kept with the names of 148 prisoners who for the most part had succumbed to this illness from November 12 to December 20, 1943.[214] The epidemic had broken out some months before, and for this reason a car with 11 tons of calcium hypochlorite was sent to Treblinka I on September 20 from the concentration camp at Lublin (Majdanek), which obviously was supposed to be scattered on the layers of bodies.[215]

Since around 10,000 prisoners were interned in Treblinka I during the time of its existence,[216] one can assume that the mass graves uncovered by the Soviets and Poles contained the bodies of all - or nearly all - who died there. That is, further graves or traces of mass cremations were not found.

3. Assessment of the Investigations

In her previously cited report, Rachel Auerbach spoke pompously of "physical evidence" and "corpora delicti." But actually neither the Soviets nor the Poles uncovered even the slightest scrap of proof that Treblinka II operated as an extermination camp. The Soviets, in their report of August 24, 1944 - cited in section 1 of this chapter - saw themselves compelled to make the following admission:

"At the present it is difficult to uncover the traces and secrets of this oven for the cremation of people, but based upon the available data, one can picture it."

Even the investigations performed by Łukaszkiewicz proved to be a complete failure in terms of this central question. He arranged excavation at a quite definite spot in the camp where, according to the witness S. Rajzman, a mass grave was located, but discovered nothing of the kind. He had trenches dug, 10-15 m long and 1.5 m deep, at the places where, according to witnesses, the two alleged buildings for gassing had stood, yet merely encountered "undisturbed layers of earth." To be sure, he did find skulls, but without wounds from shooting. All the evidence examined by him (coins, documents, rags, containers, remnants of various objects) show merely that there was a camp at that place, and the human remains as well as the ashes prove only that bodies were buried or cremated in the camp. Nothing produced even the trace of evidence for a mass murder, to say nothing of such a crime committed against several hundred thousand people.

Among the objects discovered, the skulls as well as the human body parts found in a state of decomposition deserve particular attention. From whom did they come? If we hold to the official historiography, this question remains unanswered. According to this, the cremation of the bodies exhumed from the mass graves was finished by August 2, 1943, the day of the prisoner revolt. During this revolt, at least 300 to 400 prisoners are supposed to have been killed within the camp or in the vicinity of the wire fence,[217] and in the following three weeks, allegedly more than 30,000 Jews from the ghetto of Białystok were gassed, whose bodies neither the Soviets nor the Poles discovered. If there were such killings, these victims therefore must have been cremated. The same is true for the bodies of those killed in the revolt. The surviving prisoners were not, say, killed on the spot, rather they were transferred to Sobibór on December 20, 1943, as can be gathered from a corresponding Wehrmacht bill of lading.[218] If decomposing body parts were found in November 1945, this discovery is also inconsistent with the thesis that the victims involved were murdered more than two years before. Finally, it is strikingly problematic that no single complete body was discovered.

From whom, therefore, did the skulls and body parts come? Were they perhaps taken from the mass graves of Treblinka I? Could these have been the remains of victims of the typhus epidemic, which had raged in the camp at the end of 1943? This hypothesis seems all the more plausible as none of the skulls exhibited gunshot wounds. It could also furnish an explanation for the odd circumstance that Treblinka II was bombed: the bombs destroyed not only the two buildings, which in all probability were left intact by the Germans,[219] but also scattered the rotted body parts over a wide area and thus increased the horrible effect of the 'extermination camp'. In fact, the discovered body parts were thoroughly exploited in propaganda.

* * * * *

Now remember this very important fact for the next part of this "debate" - Both the Soviets and the Poles brought along photographers to document and "fully exploit in propaganda" the gruesome images that of course would have to be found at the alleged - largest single mass murder site in the history of mankind.

So there must be tons of photos documenting these three "investigations" then - right?

One last note: The TOTAL number of bodies discovered by all three of these "investigations" amounts ot only 440 people.
 
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