#1 EU referendum thread. Brexit vote set for June 23rd

[Bev]

A powerful cross-party coalition of MPs plans to put unprecedented pressure on the Government to pull back from Europe – as support grows at Westminster for Britain to leave the EU altogether.

Amid mounting fears over the economic impact on the UK of the deepening eurozone crisis, MPs are putting aside party differences to form an anti-Brussels alliance.

The new drive follows last week’s inaugural meeting of a new group of 120 Conservative MPs, who are pushing David Cameron to set out a ‘clear plan’ for pulling back from the EU.


The group’s convener, George Eustice, plans to hold a summit with the ringleaders of the estimated 50 Labour MPs who are also opposed to integration.

Mr Eustice said: ‘This issue is now far too important to sweep under the carpet. The crisis in the eurozone requires all three parties to work together to negotiate a new relationship between Britain and the EU.’


The move came as Chancellor George Osborne warned that ‘time was running out’ to solve the eurozone crisis.

Mr Osborne, speaking in Poland where he was holding talks with European finance ministers, said there needed to be certainty over how to help Greece with its rapidly deteriorating finances.

‘I think everyone here understands the severity of the situation,’ he said. ‘People know the time is running out, that the eurozone needs to show it can get a grip on the situation’

The Euro-sceptics say a ‘substantial’ core of MPs from both main parties want the UK to leave the EU. Mr Eustice even hopes to recruit several high-profile Liberal Democrats – despite the fact that many senior Conservatives, including Foreign Secretary William Hague, blame their Coalition partners for obstructing efforts to dilute Brussels’ power.

Lib Dem Chief Whip Alistair Carmichael, party president Tim Farron and Deputy Leader of the House David Heath all voted in favour of a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty – the 2009 agreement that accelerated the integration process – but are inhibited by their positions from speaking frankly.

Labour MP John Cryer, a leading member of the party’s Euro-sceptic wing, who is in favour of holding a referendum on leaving the EU, said: ‘There has always been a strong streak of Euro-scepticism running through the Labour Party, which has been obscured by all the attention paid to the Conservatives.

‘There are a lot of Labour MPs who didn’t want to join the single currency who feel the same way about the EU as a whole.’

Labour’s Euro-sceptic ranks include former Ministers such as Frank Field, Kate Hoey and Gisela Stuart, as well as prominent backbenchers Ronnie Campbell, Graham Stringer and Austin Mitchell.

The hopes of anti-EU MPs have been boosted by a 100,000-name petition calling for a vote on EU membership which was delivered to Downing Street this month. Under the new e-petitions scheme, Commons business managers must try to find time for a parliamentary debate on the issue.

Last night Tory MP Douglas Carswell said support was growing for complete withdrawal from the EU, and added that it would be as successful as the battle to keep the UK out of the single currency.

‘There were three distinct stages in the fight to make sure we kept out of the euro,’ he said.

‘First came the stage when we were branded mad for wanting to stay out. Next they said it was OK in theory to stay out – but it was impractical to do so.

‘Finally, we have got to the point where the same people are claiming it was always their idea all along.

‘We are following exactly the same pattern on the idea of quitting the EU completely. Most people have left stage one, and are currently poised somewhere between stage two and three.’

Campaigners see the chaos in the eurozone, triggered by the near certainty of Greece defaulting on its debt, as a once-in-a-lifetime chance to ‘refashion the EU’ and ‘repat¬riate’ key powers to Westminster.

Read more: h t t p://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2038508/Labour-Tory-MPs-unite-devise-plot-Britain-leave-EU.html

[Bev]

A historic vote on growing demands for Britain to leave the European Union will be held in the Commons before Christmas.

MPs will debate whether the Government should give voters a chance to decide the issue once and for all in a referendum.

It will be the first time Parliament has held a major vote on seeking the public’s view since the 1975 referendum confirming the decision to join the Common Market.

A historic vote on growing demands for Britain to leave the European Union will be held in the Commons before Christmas

If MPs vote in favour of a referendum, the result would not be binding on the Government.


But, combined with growing public opposition to the increasing power of the EU, it would put enormous pressure on David Cameron to let the people decide the country’s European fate. The Commons vote has been forced on MPs – and a reluctant Prime Minister – by public demand after the crisis in the eurozone, with desperate attempts to prop up the Greek economy, led to a surge in anti-Brussels feeling.
Prime Minister David Cameron. MPs will debate whether the Government should give voters a chance to decide the Europe issue in a referendum

Prime Minister David Cameron. MPs will debate whether the Government should give voters a chance to decide the Europe issue in a referendum

The decision to hold a debate was made after a petition, signed by more than 100,000 people demanding a referendum, was submitted to a new group of MPs given the job of making sure Parliament does not sweep controversial issues under the carpet.

The Mail on Sunday has learnt that the Commons Backbench Business Committee will agree to grant a one-day debate on a referendum after Parliament returns next week.

Committee chairman Natascha Engel, a Labour MP, said: ‘Given the crisis in the eurozone, this issue has become more relevant than ever. There is a clear majority of backbench MPs who want to debate this and we have to respond to that.

‘The EU today is completely different from the one the British people voted to join in 1975. It is time to examine the position again. For years it has suited successive governments to avoid debating whether Britain should leave the EU. The whole purpose of my committee is to make sure the big issues of the day are aired in Parliament. People in pubs and shops all over Britain are discussing our membership of the EU and it is time MPs openly debated it too.’

The debate will be held before the end of the year. Anti-European campaigners are divided over the question that should be put in a referendum. Some want a simple ‘in or out’ question. But others want to offer the choice of going back to an old- style trading association, along the lines of the Common Market which British voters agreed to 36 years ago.

If the nation voted ‘yes’ to this, the Government could demand that key powers over immigration, health and safety, City regulations and other issues are handed back to Westminster. If the EU refused, Britain could leave altogether.


In recent opinion polls, when asked directly, nearly half of people want Britain to come out of the EU, with about a third in favour of staying in. But when the question was rephrased to give the choice of returning to a Seventies-style trade association, a clear majority chose that option.

Tory MPs plan to use this week’s party conference in Manchester to step up their demand for a referendum.

Withdrawing from the EU has support at the highest level of the party, including from Mr Cameron’s senior No 10 adviser, Steve Hilton.

The Commons vote is a nightmare for the Coalition. Mr Cameron was heavily criticised in Opposition for going back on a pledge to hold a referendum on the 2007 Lisbon Treaty which continued the process of switching sovereignty to the EU.

He fears a referendum would be a distraction from his attempts to solve Britain’s economic problems. But he will face a mass revolt if he orders Tory MPs to vote against it.
Protests in Greece over cut backs. The crisis in the eurozone with desperate attempts to prop up the Greek economy has led to a surge in anti-Brussels feeling

Protests in Greece over cut backs. The crisis in the eurozone with desperate attempts to prop up the Greek economy has led to a surge in anti-Brussels feeling

Although Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg is an avowed Europhile, he made an Election pledge to hold an ‘in or out’ EU referendum. It was seen as a crude Lib Dem ploy to prove that whatever their reservations about the EU, most Britons want to stay in. But with growing hostility to the EU, Mr Clegg may now be hoist with his own petard. A sizeable number of Labour MPs also want a referendum.

The historic Commons debate is set to be agreed after Tory MP David Nuttall approached the Backbench Business Committee on the strength of the petition. The Bury MP said he would defy any attempt by Mr Cameron to silence him. ‘I will vote in favour of a referendum. It is time the people had their say.’

Last night, despite the growing calls for a referendum, Foreign Secretary William Hague insisted the Government would not grant a public vote on leaving the EU altogether – but said he would consider putting any future erosion of sovereignty to the people.

‘The EU does have too much power, in our view,’ he said. ‘But this is a Coalition Government. We have an agreed programme on which the Lib Dems gave a lot of ground.

‘Any large-scale change in the treaties is for future years. Our place is in the European Union.’

Since Britain joined the Common Market, there have been a series of Commons votes on whether there should be referendums on EU treaties such as Maastricht and Lisbon – although none on whether we should remain in the EU. All have been defeated, largely due to Governments ordering MPs to vote them down.

The Government has suffered three defeats as a result of debates ordered by the Backbench Business Committee, including rejecting a European bid to give prisoners the vote.

Read more: h t t p://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2044211/At-We-vote-Europe-MPs-forced-decide-referendum.html

HOWEVER......

It was revealed today that MPs are set to vote on a referendum within the next few months, after a petition with more than 100,000 signatures was submitted calling for the public to be given the chance to decide whether Britain should stay in the EU.

Speaking at the start of the Conservative Party in Manchester, Mr Cameron said he did not believe the UK should quit the EU.

And he played down the prospect of the Government repatriating powers from Brussels in the near future.

The Government's immediate priority on Europe is to get the crisis in the eurozone sorted out and revive the continent's economy, he said.

The Commons Backbench Business Committee is expected to set a date before Christmas for a one-day debate in the House of Commons on a referendum on EU membership. The vote will not be binding on the Government, but if MPs back a referendum, it will put massive pressure on Mr Cameron to put the issue to the country.

The committee's Labour chairman Natascha Engel told the Mail on Sunday: "Given the crisis in the eurozone, this issue has become more relevant than ever. There is a clear majority of backbench MPs who want to debate this and we have to respond to that.

"The EU today is completely different from the one the British people voted to join in 1975. It is time to examine the position again.

"For years it has suited successive governments to avoid debating whether Britain should leave the EU. The whole purpose of my committee is to make sure the big issues of the day are aired in Parliament. People in pubs and shops all over Britain are discussing our membership of the EU and it is time MPs openly debated it too."

But Mr Cameron told BBC1's Andrew Marr Show: "It's not our view that there should be an in/out referendum. I don't want Britain to leave the EU. I think it's the wrong answer for Britain.

"What most people want in this country is not actually to leave the EU, but to reform the EU and make sure that the balance of powers between a country like Britain and Europe is better."

Mr Cameron said that he wanted to use future treaties to negotiate the return of powers from Brussels to Westminster.

But he said that this was an ambition "for the longer term" and there was no immediate prospect of treaty changes to make it possible. It did not form part of the current renegotiation of treaties which will keep Britain out of the eurozone bail-out mechanism, he said.

Mr Cameron left no doubt that he believes the collapse of the European single currency would be highly damaging for Britain.

"Right now, the eurozone is a threat not just to itself but a threat to the British economy and a threat to the worldwide economy, so we have to deal with this," he told the Marr Show.

The break-up of the single currency would be "very bad" for the UK, even though it is not a member of the euro and will not join under his leadership, said the Prime Minister.

"If bad things happen in the eurozone, that affects us," he said. "We can't insure ourselves from the fact that the German and French economies - the two biggest economies in Europe - have stalled. That's a real problem for us.

"I will always defend the British national interest. I think our interest is to be in the EU, because we need that single market. We are a trading nation, it is vital for our economic future.

"But I have always made clear my view that we have given too many powers to Europe and there are some powers I would like back from Europe and there may be future opportunities to bring that about."

Mr Cameron indicated that he was not planning to use the current crisis in Europe to seek a renegotiation of the terms of Britain's membership.

"I have been very clear that I think we have given too many powers to Europe. There are some powers I would like to get back. Any future treaty change would be an opportunity to do that, but right now that is not on the immediate agenda," he said.

And he added: "The eurozone issue is the urgent priority. That is what needs to be dealt with.

"There is a European treaty right now which gets us out of the bailout mechanism that Labour got us into. The prospect for further future treaties is not an immediate prospect.

"What we have got to do is make sure we sort out the eurozone issue in a way that protects British interests for the longer term."

The logic of the single currency means that the 17 members of the eurozone will probably have to move to closer co-ordination of their fiscal policies, said Mr Cameron. But he made clear that this should not be allowed to delay the more urgent action needed to stave off the sovereign debt crisis.

"Action needs to be taken in the next coming weeks to strengthen Europe's banks, to build the defences that the eurozone needs and deal with the problem of debt decisively," he said.

"They have got to do that now and get ahead of the markets now, irrespective of the changes the eurozone might choose to make in the future about having more economic co-operation, which I suspect they will need."

And he added: "The Government's priority right now is to sort out the eurozone, get the European economies growing again.

"Let's get the single market working properly, because there are huge things we could do in Europe to help promote growth in Britain - get the single market in energy, finish the single market in services, open up European markets, make sure that we stop the costs that are being piled onto British business through the EU. Let's stop all of that."

He said: "I'm not a pessimist on Europe, but I do think we can do better."

Meanwhile, Foreign Secretary William Hague said that a referendum on EU membership would not be "sensible" at a time of economic crisis.

Asked about how the Government would approach any Commons debate on a referendum, Mr Hague told Sky News's Murnaghan programme: "Of course we will look at any motion, but we won't be in favour of holding now an in/out referendum on Europe.

"At a time of economic difficulty to actually say to people, instead of getting everything growing in our economy, we are going to spend our time on an in/out referendum which will create uncertainty for businesses in Britain - that wouldn't be a very sensible course of action."

Mr Hague denied that the Conservatives were split on the issue of Europe: "I have meetings with many Conservative backbenchers and I think we are very closely aligned - the party leadership, the Government and the great mass of the Conservative Party - on this."

The Conservative leadership remained keen to repatriate powers from Brussels, but was "constrained" by the fact that they are in coalition with Liberal Democrats, he said.

"This is a party that is committed to the return of powers from the EU to the UK," said Mr Hague. "We are constrained by being in a coalition on that subject, but that is something that I still believe in."

He added: "It may well be one of the dividing lines in the general election."

h t t p://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/8802097/Conservative-party-conference-2011-Cameron-says-UK-should-stay-in-the-EU.html

[Bev]

If you're wondering what benefit we gain from being in Europe, here's one. We find a home for that £43 MILLION pounds a year that would otherwise be....who knows? Nothing, presumably, given that we can afford to sling it away so cheerfully.

CHILD benefit worth £42million is being sent abroad each year – while British families are being squeezed by the cash crisis, we can reveal today.

Most of the cash goes to eastern Europe, with Poland top of the list.

Every month more than *£2million is sent to Polish children, who already enjoy a higher quality of life than those living here.

Of the £42million sent abroad, £30million goes to youngsters in eastern Europe.

Payments are usually far more generous than any government benefits in those countries.

British benefits for Polish children are 515 per cent higher than local workers could claim on their own welfare system – which could explain the huge surge in claims here in recent years.

While the Warsaw government pays £3.30 per week per child, Polish claimants here get £20.30 for one child, a difference of £17 per week.

ì
It seems incredible that our country is once again financing this situation
î

Robert Halfon, Conservative MP for Harlow

The British are paid benefit for every *other child is £14.75 per week, so a Polish family with three children can claim more than £200 per month.

The Government is now being urged to reduce the payments dramatically as the squeezed middle classes here prepare for having their child benefit removed.

Hundreds of *thousands of British families will lose all their child benefits from April 2013 when the Government will stop all payments if any householder earns enough to be taxed at 40 per cent.

Some hard-pressed families face *losing £200 a month.

SEARCH UK NEWS for:


However, this ruling is unlikely to affect most of the Europeans and *foreigners working in Britain and *claiming child benefit for loved ones in their native countries because their earnings *generally fall below the 40 per cent tax threshold.

As more eastern Europeans settle in Britain, the cost of paying child benefit to their families back home is expected to rise to a total of £45million per year by 2015.

Ukip leader Nigel Farage said: “Why should British taxpayers pay for people to have a higher standard of living in other countries than people in this country? The system is *simply unfair and needs to be changed.

“When the Prime Minister says we are all in this together I don’t think he meant *people from *Walsall to Warsaw.

“People are getting fed up with all these millions pouring abroad, *especially when so many more British people are being squeezed.”

The Sunday Express investigation into the escalating costs of child benefit for foreign workers’ families has *galvanised Tory MPs who see it as a key issue for the party conference in *Manchester this week.

As David Cameron arrived yesterday, senior Government figures were *planning a revolt against plans by the European Commission to make benefit tourism even easier.

That could see Britain hit with an extra £2.5billion in welfare payments, a move which threatens to derail our *economic recovery.

Employment Minister Chris Grayling and the equally Euro *sceptic Work and *Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith are preparing for a major battle in *Brussels to stop the European bureaucrats from grabbing yet more power from the British *Parliament.

Last night Robert Halfon, Conservative MP for Harlow, said: “This seems to be yet another case of benefit tourism with thousands of people getting generous benefits which they wouldn’t get in their own countries.

“It seems incredible that our country is once again financing this situation,” he added.

Philip Hollobone, Tory MP for Kettering, added: “There will be widespread outrage and incredulity that so much money is being gifted to EU migrants in child benefit when their children aren’t even living in the UK.

“It just goes to show the absurdity of EU rules that can waste British tax*payers’ money in this way and will strengthen the case for the UK leaving the EU *altogether.”

A spokesman for HM Revenue & Customs said: “Child benefit payments are in line with EU rules which have been in force for more than 30 years.

“We do not pay child benefit for children living in another EU member state until we are sure the claim is legitimate.”

The spokesman added that most of the *payments are made directly into bank accounts in *foreign countries.

h t t p://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/274972/-42m-child-benefit-sent-abroad

[Bev]

Here's another reason to stay in the EU. It's ordered us how to dispose of that pesky spare 2.5 billion notes we find ourselves burdened with each year.

The EU's ruling that Britain should allow all European citizens to claim benefits 'must be vigorously opposed', according to a migration watchdog.

Sir Andrew Green, chairman of Migration Watch UK, has warned that the decision is 'an open invitation to benefit tourism'.

Europe has given Britain two months to scrap its policies which prevent benefit tourists claiming billions of pounds in handouts.


Last night the European Commission said it would take the Government to court unless it draws up plans to axe restrictions on claims by immigrants, saying they are against the law and must be scrapped.

Brussels bureaucrats acted after receiving a complaint that the rules infringed the human rights of EU citizens.

But Sir Andrew warned the EU ruling could be a disaster, adding: 'Clearly this risks blowing the Government's immigration policy out of the water.'


And Employment Secretary Iain Duncan Smith said the move threatened to break the 'vital link' which should exist between taxpayers and their own government.

He added: 'The EU settlement is supposed to protect the right of member states to make their own social security arrangements.

'But we are now seeing a rising tide of judgments from the European institutions using other legal avenues to erode away these rights, and we should be gravely concerned.'

It is feared the change could open the door to tens of thousands of Eastern Europeans who are currently deterred from coming to Britain – costing taxpayers up to £2.5billion a year in extra welfare payments.


At present a ‘habitual residency’ test is used to establish whether EU migrants are eligible for benefits.

To qualify for jobseekers’ allowance, employment support allowance, pension credit and income support, they must demonstrate they have either worked here previously or have a good opportunity to get a job.

But the European Commission said this ‘right to reside’ test indirectly discriminates against nationals from other EU states by enforcing a set of conditions that effectively tests their right to state handouts.

Yesterday members announced they were considering taking the UK to the EU’s Court of Justice if it does not scrap the test.

And they gave the Government two months to inform them of the measures it takes to enforce the rules.

Officials in the Department for Work and Pensions warn it would cost anything from £620million a year to £2.46billion if they have to scrap the test – seriously hampering plans to rein in public spending.

Employment minister Chris Grayling said: ‘This is a very unwelcome development.

‘It’s obviously right that we support those who work and pay their taxes here, but it’s clearly completely unacceptable that we should open our doors to benefit tourism.

‘I’m really surprised the European Commission has chosen to go into battle on this very sensitive issue, when there are clearly far more pressing problems to solve in Europe.’


A source at the DWP added: ‘This could open the doors of the benefits system to anyone from the EU, even if they have no intention of working.

‘That would be bad enough if we were in good economic times, but we are not in good economic times.’

‘We will fight this tooth and nail. This is a battle we will win.’

Nigel Farage, the leader of the UK Independence Party, said: ‘Once again we see the EC telling us how to run our country and people are becoming sick and tired of it.

‘The UK is perfectly within its rights to require EU nationals to fulfil certain conditions before taking advantage of our generous benefits system.

‘If the EC gets its way then there will be a far greater burden on the British taxpayer as more money will need to be found for the social security system.

‘The “right to reside” test should stay. It is not discrimination, but simply a system to ensure that benefits are paid only to those who are entitled to them.’

Stephen Booth, research director of think-tank Open Europe, said: ‘Freedom of movement within the EU has largely been positive for the UK but issues surrounding benefits and social security are understandably very sensitive.

‘For the freedom of movement within the EU to work, governments have to be able to assure their citizens that welfare systems won’t be abused.

‘At a time when people are concerned about the pressures of immigration, the Commission is playing a dangerous game by trying to overrule the UK on its “right to reside” test.’

The European Commission first set out its stall last year when it wrote: ‘EU law leaves it to member states to determine the details of their social security schemes and social assistance schemes, including the conditions on awarding benefits.

‘Having examined the “right to reside” test, it is not compatible with different legal provisions of EU law.’

Read more: h t t p://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2043519/Now-EU-orders-Britain-Let-migrants-claim-benefits-soon-arrive-UK.html#

[Bev]

Is it me, or is Cameron just a total frakking plank? I have yet to meet one person or even to meet one person who knows of a person who thinks that staying in the financial drain that is the EU a good idea. I seem to remember that UKIP claimed it cost somewhere round 40 million a day just to be members. I have no idea of the actual figure and frankly, don't care enough to find out, but even if UKIP blew it out of all proportion and doubled it, it's still a lot to pay.

OK, that figure gives us access to the European Social Fund:

The European Social Fund (ESF) was set up to improve employment opportunities in the European Union and so help raise standards of living. It aims to help people fulfil their potential by giving them better skills and better job prospects.

As one of the EU's Structural Funds, ESF seeks to reduce differences in prosperity across the EU and enhance economic and social cohesion. So although ESF funding is spread across the EU, most money goes to those countries and regions where economic development is less advanced. The other main Structural Fund is the European Regional Development Fund which invests in projects to improve innovation, the environment and infrastructure.

The ESF is a key part of the Europe 2020 strategy for jobs and smart, sustainable and inclusive growth. It supports the EU's goal of increasing employment by giving unemployed and disadvantaged people the training and support they need to enter jobs. ESF also equips the workforce with the skills needed by business in a competitive global economy.

The 2007-2013 England ESF programme is investing £5 billion over seven years of which £2.5 billion is from the ESF and £2.5 billion is national funding.

h t t p://www.dwp.gov.uk/esf/about-esf/

So this has been been increasing employment in England for the past five years, has it? Right-o.

We also get to be members of the European Regional Development Fund. What does that do?

In my region, it claims to:

Priority 1 - Increasing productivity through innovation and sustainable business practice
This priority will focus on increasing commercialisation of innovation of small and medium-sized enterprises in the region's priority sectors: transport equipment, construction, food and drink, health and in businesses with high growth potential to create higher value added products and services. It will include support for small and medium-sized enterprise engagement in Research and Development for emerging technologies and for innovation to improve resource efficiency.


Priority 2 - Increasing sustainable economic and enterprise activity in disadvantaged communities
This priority will focus on stimulating economic and enterprise activity in the most disadvantaged areas whilst exploiting the potential linkages to adjacent areas of economic growth, through a range of actions but with a strong focus on enterprise and start-up activity. It will also aim to create new economic opportunities by building local capacity, resources and support; reviving local infrastructure and environments and stimulating and supporting enterprise.

Can't say I've noticed any of this cracking off. I did hear tell of a factory opening up that advertised for workers who could speak Polish.....

h t t p://www.erdfnw.co.uk/

Can anyone come up with a good reason to stay in Europe?

[Bev]

Originally Posted by Bev

Can anyone come up with a good reason to stay in Europe?

.....and I don't mean cheap fags and booze or being able to use your licence-with-a-c as a passport.

[Charlie-Horse]

The European Social Fund pays for all the crappy courses that places like Working Links offer to the unemployed. When I say crappy, I do mean crappy BTW. It is regarded as a near punishment to be asked to attend, for instance, I was just offered a FREE level 2 qualification in 'Equality and Diversity' guess I couldn't live without that, huh. They are obviously intent on brainwashing the middle-aged now and not content on educating just schoolchildren in such nonsense.

[Bev]

Originally Posted by Charlie-Horse

The European Social Fund pays for all the crappy courses that places like Working Links offer to the unemployed. When I say crappy, I do mean crappy BTW. It is regarded as a near punishment to be asked to attend, for instance, I was just offered a FREE level 2 qualification in 'Equality and Diversity' guess I couldn't live without that, huh. They are obviously intent on brainwashing the middle-aged now and not content on educating just schoolchildren in such nonsense.

You can get a qualification in Equality and Diversity? Wouldn't they be better served sending jobseekers on courses teaching them how to weld, or emulsion, or mend fences or secretarial/book-keeping courses or whatever? I can just see someone walking into an interview for a labourer position or something and telling the prospective employer that they have a qualification in Equality and Diversity. I can see the employer's reaction as well. "Jog on".

[Mr Baker]

Originally Posted by Charlie-Horse

The European Social Fund pays for all the crappy courses that places like Working Links offer to the unemployed. When I say crappy, I do mean crappy BTW. It is regarded as a near punishment to be asked to attend, for instance, I was just offered a FREE level 2 qualification in 'Equality and Diversity' guess I couldn't live without that, huh. They are obviously intent on brainwashing the middle-aged now and not content on educating just schoolchildren in such nonsense.

Have you ever had the displeasure of being forced onto one of those courses?

I used to work in a hospital and during our training course we had to go on an absolutely dreadful equality and diversity course. We had to sit and watch this really shit video that was on the topic of why it is wrong to discriminate against people on the grounds of race, sex, religion, etc and it was that old it had like 1970's type niggers in there with afro haircuts.

Keeping a straight face was no easy task.

[Charlie-Horse]

Originally Posted by Bev

You can get a qualification in Equality and Diversity? Wouldn't they be better served sending jobseekers on courses teaching them how to weld, or emulsion, or mend fences or secretarial/book-keeping courses or whatever? I can just see someone walking into an interview for a labourer position or something and telling the prospective employer that they have a qualification in Equality and Diversity. I can see the employer's reaction as well. "Jog on".

My thoughts exactly, only I said driving and welding, a hard skill. That was my main comment the last time I was sent to do a course. We did a 'Health and Safety' course, and the fact is that no-one had ever failed it, they fiddle the results so you always pass, you could write 'F-OFF' on the answer sheet and still pass. There were some illiterate people on the course who could barely read or write and they always pass, the test is done in pencil, this is so the firm can say they have an excellent pass rate, the tutor even joked about it to me, a bit sick when it's a safety course though. People could be hurt which I did comment about. It's so commonplace that no-one even cares though Bev, and you waste your time complaining, no-body cares about the people who get sent to do the courses, because they are the 1% of society that nobody wants.

[S.G.]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...me/9626276.stm

[Bev]

Worth a try, I suppose.

Referendum on the European Union

Responsible department: Foreign and Commonwealth Office

We, the people of the United Kingdom, are dissatisfied with the result of the EU Referendum Debate on 24 October 2011 and would like the House of Commons to reconsider its decision in light of this petition and grant us an opportunity through a referendum to express our desire on the relationship with the EU.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20133

[Bev]

And whilst you're there.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/8324

Ban Religious Slaughter in the UK

Responsible department: Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Under UK law, all farmed animals have to be stunned to render them unconscious before their throats are cut. However, a special legal exemption (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...ts/made#sdiv12) which applies ONLY to Halal and Kosher slaughter, means that animals slaughtered, “by a religious method” for halal or kosher meat - are exempt. We believe that on animal cruelty grounds, that this exemption should be removed. This method has now been found illegal under the legislation but those in power refuse to change the law or press charges.This group is not racist, is not anti Muslim or anti Jewish. It is concerned over animal welfare in the UK. Pre-stunning of animals is not sufficient to render the animal fully unconscious until it is dead.

I didn't set up this petition so don't start over the wording. If it gets enough signatures, they're forced to hold a debate on it. Therefore, to me, the end justifies the means.

[dunotra]

Originally Posted by Bev

And whilst you're there.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/8324



I didn't set up this petition so don't start over the wording. If it gets enough signatures, they're forced to hold a debate on it. Therefore, to me, the end justifies the means.

The fine print
If you collect 100,000 signatures, your e-petition could be debated in the House of Commons

So that means we will only debate it if it suites us!

[Bev]

MPs who want a referendum on membership of the European Union are “right-wing nationalists” who would bring "disaster" to Britain, Kenneth Clarke has said.


The Justice Secretary, who is regarded as the most "europhile" Conservative Cabinet minister, said calls to consider withdrawing from the EU were "a dangerous irrelevance" to the economic crisis.

Backbench Tories retaliated and warned that most of the party’s MPs were in favour of an “in-out” referendum.

Mr Clarke’s launched his broadside after Ed Miliband signalled that he would consider whether Labour should throw its weight behind calls for the public to be given a vote on Britain’s place in Europe.

In an interview with Sky News, Mr Clarke said a referendum was “dangerous” and “irrelevant” to the task of addressing the eurozone debt crisis.

“I can’t think of anything more irrelevant to the present situation actually, nor personally can I think of anything more disastrous than the British leaving the European Union and deciding that now is the moment to take up splendid isolation alongside Iceland and others.

“I see there are some Tory backbenchers on the nationalist right still demanding a referendum on the EU,” he said. The Labour Party is considering joining the MPs “to embarrass the Government”, he added.

“That’s just one of those things we have to put up with.”

Eurosceptic Conservatives have been calling on David Cameron to agree to a referendum and 81 MPs defied Prime Minister’s orders last year to vote in favour of a plebiscite during a non-binding Commons debate.

Many backbench Tories were delighted by Mr Cameron’s use of Britain’s “veto” last December to block a new European “fiscal treaty”.

However, some have become increasingly dismayed at the turmoil in the eurozone and are believed to be considering fresh moves in Parliament to trigger a referendum on Britain’s EU membership.

Douglas Carswell, the eurosceptic Conservative MP for Clacton, retaliated against Mr Clarke’s criticism.

“Ken Clarke is as wrong about a Europe referendum as he has been about a European single currency. He has been consistently wrong throughout his career,” he said.

“There is nothing vaguely nationalistic about wanting to give the people the final say over whether we remain in the EU.

“The alternative is that we leave those decisions to people like Ken, who stood on a platform with Tony Blair in the late 1990s demanding that we join the euro. Think what a disaster would have befallen us today.”

The Prime Minister is under growing pressure promise a referendum amid signs that he could be out-flanked on the issue by Labour.

Last week, Mr Miliband appointed Jon Cruddas, a Left-wing MP who backs a referendum, to oversee Labour’s sweeping policy review.

Mr Cruddas has promised to use all his influence in power to convince party leaders to support an “in-out” vote, arguing that the public deserve to have the final say.

In an interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Mr Miliband declined to rule out supporting a referendum, arguing that “it’s a question for another day”.

According to a poll for two Sunday newspapers, Britain’s membership of the EU is an increasingly important subject for voters.

Almost half of the electorate – 46 per cent – would vote to leave the EU, compared with 30% who would support remaining in the union.

The ComRes survey, for the Independent on Sunday and the Sunday Mirror, showed that 26 per cent of Tories now say they would consider voting for the UK Independence Party.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9278605/Ken-Clarke-attacks-nationalist-eurosceptic-Tories.html safe

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ic-Tories.html normal

[Reinhard]

Clarke must have swallowed so much of Teddy Heath's cum that he is turning into a clone.

[Bev]

Prime Minister David Cameron has suggested he could call a referendum on the UK's relationship with Europe.

In an article for The Sunday Telegraph, he acknowledged that the country's position within an evolving European Union must have "the full-hearted support of the British people".

But he insisted that the vast majority of the public did not support an immediate referendum on whether Britain should be in or out.

Nearly 100 Conservative MPs have written to Mr Cameron urging him to make it a legal commitment to hold a poll on the EU during the next parliament but Mr Cameron was cautious about how the issue would be put to people.

He said: "There is more to come - further moves, probably further treaties - where we can take forward our interests, safeguard the single market and stay out of a federal Europe.

"How do we take the British people with us on this difficult and complicated journey? How do we avoid the wrong paths of either meekly accepting the status quo or giving up altogether and preparing to leave?

"It will undoubtedly be hard going, but taking the right path in politics often is.

"As we get closer to the end point we will need to consider how best to get the full-hearted support of the British people, whether it is in a general election or a referendum.

"As I have said, for me the two words 'Europe' and 'referendum' can go together, particularly if we really are proposing a change in how our country is governed, but let us get the people a real choice first."

Mr Cameron's article in the newspaper comes after an EU summit called to tackle the eurozone crisis moved the bloc towards closer ties.

After the meeting, he told reporters he was not in favour of an in/out referendum leading some to believe he was ruling out a popular vote altogether.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/cameron-weighs-eu-referendum-214801270.html safe http://uk.news.yahoo.com/cameron-wei...214801270.html normal

Bit early to start dangling this carrot, Dave, we all remember how you stitched up the parliamentary debate on whether to offer one or not. Still, there may be one or two gullibles who fall for it.

My bolding: In others words, another loaded question with no real choice, just like the original one. No chance of an actual "Shall we tell the EU to do one: yes or no" question.

[Dawn Cannon]

Britain must wait for Europe referendum, says William Hague

Britain will not be able to have a referendum on Europe until the debt crisis has been sorted out, William Hague has said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...iam-Hague.html

England is 2 trillion dollars in debt, just below Italy at 2.5

[Bev]

Originally Posted by Dawn Cannon

Britain must wait for Europe referendum, says William Hague

Britain will not be able to have a referendum on Europe until the debt crisis has been sorted out, William Hague has said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...iam-Hague.html

England is 2 trillion dollars in debt, just below Italy at 2.5

Oh, that's fantastic news! I'll keep my head down (but not too far down, I have to keep it above the salty and rancid water of the We'reYou're-All-In-This-Together sea) and keep doggy paddling after that carrot. The quicker we all stop moaning another 1 billion pound bailout bonanza he promised yesterday, wasn't it? and get on with it, the quicker we can hear the excuse as to why we can't have one just yet have our referendum. God Bless The David of Cameron.

I know I'm pretty crap at maths, but wouldn't we get out of the shit quicker if we stopped paying a fortune per day just to be IN the EU and if we stopped chucking the odd £1 billion bailouts at the EU? Just a thought.

(I bet the EU-driven human rights courts appeals ain't cheap, either.)


(or all the EU/Israel/US driven wars)

[joefrombradford]

But he insisted that the vast majority of the public did not support an immediate referendum on whether Britain should be in or out.

That is the most blatant lie he has come out with so far. For what reason would the British public not want a democratic say in our continued membership of the EU, that is bankrupting us?