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Old September 26th, 2013 #1
Alex Linder
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For someone with great grammatical knowledge: is this (first) sentence I contrived, which says exactly and precisely what I intend, grammatically wrong?

(tweet)

Like every other fortysomething, I feel I music was better 20 years ago. <---------------the sentence in question


This is not proof. This is a Divinyls video.

Last edited by Alex Linder; September 26th, 2013 at 12:53 AM.
 
Old September 26th, 2013 #2
Donnie in Ohio
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Dude, music was better 40 years ago. Someone hand me my cane. I don't have any grammatical knowledge, but I'm a giver none the less.
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Old September 26th, 2013 #3
Alex Linder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie in Ohio View Post
Dude, music was better 40 years ago. Someone hand me my cane. I don't have any grammatical knowledge, but I'm a giver none the less.
That's my point. EVERYONE thinks music was best in his coming of age years, roughly 12-25. And they think that because THEY were better then. Which is what I tried to express concisely elegantly, without falling into poetry. So you stumble over what I said, but it's written to cause that. It appears to be a typo or a missed edit, but it's not, and you see that when you read it the second time. That's the idea anyway.

Last edited by Alex Linder; September 27th, 2013 at 12:42 AM.
 
Old September 26th, 2013 #4
Donnie in Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Linder View Post
That's my point. EVERYONE thinks music was best in his coming of age years, roughly 12-25. And they think that because THEY were better then.
That's approaching profound, Alex.
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Old September 26th, 2013 #5
M.N. Dalvez
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Why do you ask, Alex? Did someone, elsewhere, 'take issue' with that sentence on grammatical grounds?

Quote:
Like every other fortysomething, I feel I music was better 20 years ago.
Quote:
I would have added 'that' before 'music', to indicate that 'music was better...' is a subordinate clause, dependent upon the main clause in that sentence - that you are stating your opinion, not an absolute fact.
Don't agree, it's self evident and irrelevant that it's an opinion. It's a statement of feeling as you can tell from 'feel.' Generally there unless rhythm requires it that is like a comma, better discarded. Get me to the thing I'm saying, discard the clothes and let's fuck. I don't need thats hanging around peeping on my main point like perverts of slat.

Quote:
Whether you genuinely feel that music was better 20 years ago or not is not relevant, because you're obviously stating your opinion, not making an effort to prove that music was objectively better 20 years ago. After all, it's just a short sentence in which you state your opinion.

Main clause: 'I feel'.
Subordinate clause: 'music was better 20 years ago'.
My question is whether the 'I music' part is ungrammatical (1), and if not then (2) what is the name for that double object, I guess it would be.


Other than that, I don't see any grammatical problems with that sentence.

I also would have hyphenated 'forty-something', [/quote]

If you're using it as a noun, as I was, it's better not to hyphenate it. I would hyphenate it as an adjective. The term originated with the show Thirtysomething, which I don't think was hyphenated.

Quote:
but that's not really a grammatical issue. And I am assuming that the 'I' that you wrote before music was a typo.
It's not. That's the whole point of this whole question!

I SAID: the sentence reads exactly the way I want it. My question is whether the 'I music' part is ungrammatical. I don't think so. And if not, if legitimate, what the term is for two nouns together like that.

OOPS MY APOLOGIES I EDITED THIS POST RATHER THAN RESPONDED TO IT, SORRY MN DALVEZ.

Last edited by Alex Linder; September 27th, 2013 at 01:08 AM.
 
Old September 26th, 2013 #6
Donnie in Ohio
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I tend to over-hyphenate.

There. I said it.
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Old September 27th, 2013 #7
Alex Linder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M.N. Dalvez View Post
Why do you ask, Alex? Did someone, elsewhere, 'take issue' with that sentence on grammatical grounds?
No. I'm trying to find if there's a name for what I did. Almost all rhetorical techniques have some Greek name. These names I have seen but don't know by heart, I just know how to do them by instinct, basically. This particular one is one I have not seen or used much. I'm trying to recreate with words the actual thought pattern people have when they are making the pedestrian point that "music was better back then." My point is what they really mean is "_I_ was better back then." Once the basic idea(s) are settled, it is a question of how to phrase them...best. I phrased it in a deliberately unsual way. Such that 99/100 readers would blip over it and assume it was a typo, but in fact it was not a typo, it was a deliberate attempt to produce an effect, the one described: you read it slowly thinking about it and you see the psychology of the speaker reflected in the words. Which makes the point.

I don't THINK the way I did it is ungrammatical. Even if it were, I wouldn't care because it's an artistic formulation, and grammar yields to production values where it must, as decided by the writer, the effects producer. It's just an interesting question to me. Then also I wonder, as said, if there's a name for this technique. It may not technically be a technique at all, merely an elision, in that I could have said: I really think I -- I mean, I really think music -- was better back then. I'm saying the same thing but oddly. To produce an effect, stimulate a sensation and recognition - of the psychology and true meaning behind the commonplace.
 
Old September 27th, 2013 #8
Alex Linder
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Originally Posted by Donnie in Ohio View Post
That's approaching profound, Alex.
Not at all, but I'm pretty sure it's true.
 
Old September 27th, 2013 #9
Randal Goode
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Linder View Post
It appears to be a typo or a missed edit, but it's not, and you see that when you read it the second time.
Do you mean the second "I" in "I feel I" is not a typo? If not, then you need commas: I feel, I, music was better 20 years ago. There is a pause present when you say it aloud the way you intend.

"Fortysomething" does not seem to be hyphenated in usage, as far as I can tell.

There is no need for "that" to precede "music." It should always be edited out. You are correct.
 
Old September 27th, 2013 #10
Alex Linder
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Originally Posted by Randal Goode View Post
Do you mean the second "I" in "I feel I" is not a typo? If not, then you need commas: I feel, I, music was better 20 years ago. There is a pause present when you say it aloud the way you intend.
No. That would be valid, but that's not what I mean. I wasn't emphasizing that "I" feel this way, I worded it that odd way to make the point that I feel I was better back then, as well as that the music was better then. The second I and the music are on the same level, like dual barrels of a shotgun. The rest of the sentence pertains to both of them, as though there were two full clauses or sentences. But there aren't, just th one noun and the other, bare. I kind of like that effect, it has interested me more in recent years. Way to pack more meaning and efficiency into shorter space.

Quote:
"Fortysomething" does not seem to be hyphenated in usage, as far as I can tell.
It's used a noun. One would hyphenate it as an adjective.

Last edited by Alex Linder; September 27th, 2013 at 01:29 AM.
 
Old September 27th, 2013 #11
Randal Goode
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Linder View Post
No. That would be valid, but that's not what I mean. I wasn't emphasizing that "I" feel this way, I worded it that odd way to make the point that I feel I was better back then, as well as that the music was better then.
I understand. I thought you meant to emphasize yourself. But I don't think you are managing to convey your intended meaning. You're making a good try, though. I just don't think you succeeded here. But it is indeed no small part of a writer's ambition to always convey a thought, or particular feeling, in a unique way or style. We like getting it down just so in just so few words. Then we stand back and smile at our singular creation, swollen with pride. John MacDonald said it best. We either read other writers with weary contempt or grinding envy.

I actually didn't even see the second I when I first read it. Funny how that happens; words and sentences flow such a way, sometimes. Preconception takes over often in our reading. Our eyes actually only scan over words and sentences, our minds already processing and registering the rest. And sometimes there are mistakes.
 
Old September 27th, 2013 #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Linder View Post
That's my point. EVERYONE thinks music was best in his coming of age years, roughly 12-25. And they think that because THEY were better then. Which is what I tried to express concisely elegantly, without falling into poetry. So you stumble over what I said, but it's written to cause that. It appears to be a typo or a missed edit, but it's not, and you see that when you read it the second time. That's the idea anyway.


This may be the case, and I acknowledge the truth. But isn't it fair to say there are a lot of peer-recognised truths as to when music WAS in fact better? When you find comments on YouTube of young people arguing that originality isn't that proof that it isn't just about when we were at our best that there was specialness to that time that allowed for creative uniqueness? Can these not be judged by an identifiable originality in the composition, in the energy, in the lyricism and the unifying vibe? We can all agree that much of the 1960s was an undeniable energy, and those of my age (40 something) can look to punk and post-punk as an era [known as the blank generation to X generation] of highly emulated and admired genre? It is not a fuddy duddy thing to say that since Hip-Hop has become an unshakeable stalwart and the negrofication of music in general as a kind of lift music for background sounds in gymnasiums; the watering-down of punk (Blink182 and Green Day, no oldies anyway), that there is definitely a creative gap. And do you like that Divinylsí song you uploaded, Alex? Chrissie Amphlett is dead now, and she WAS a race traitor, but that was an energetic song and a good one. I like it anyway.
 
Old March 2nd, 2014 #13
Alex Linder
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Originally Posted by NathanSykes View Post
This may be the case, and I acknowledge the truth. But isn't it fair to say there are a lot of peer-recognised truths as to when music WAS in fact better? When you find comments on YouTube of young people arguing that originality isn't that proof that it isn't just about when we were at our best that there was specialness to that time that allowed for creative uniqueness? Can these not be judged by an identifiable originality in the composition, in the energy, in the lyricism and the unifying vibe? We can all agree that much of the 1960s was an undeniable energy, and those of my age (40 something) can look to punk and post-punk as an era [known as the blank generation to X generation] of highly emulated and admired genre? It is not a fuddy duddy thing to say that since Hip-Hop has become an unshakeable stalwart and the negrofication of music in general as a kind of lift music for background sounds in gymnasiums; the watering-down of punk (Blink182 and Green Day, no oldies anyway), that there is definitely a creative gap. And do you like that Divinylsí song you uploaded, Alex? Chrissie Amphlett is dead now, and she WAS a race traitor, but that was an energetic song and a good one. I like it anyway.
You're missing the whole point. I'm not arguing music was better then or now or anytime, I'm making a point about why people almost always feel it was better when they were young, 15-25. It's because THEY were better then, not music, necessarily. You can argue about when the best music was made but that doesn't interest me and is not what I was talking about.
 
Old September 27th, 2013 #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie in Ohio View Post
Dude, music was better 40 years ago.
Strange comment.

Pitcavage would only have been 7 years old at that time.
 
Old September 28th, 2013 #15
Donnie in Ohio
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Marr View Post
Strange comment.

Pitcavage would only have been 7 years old at that time.
Probably already shopping in the "husky" section.
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Old September 28th, 2013 #16
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Quote:
Like every other fortysomething, I feel I music was better 20 years ago
Having considered it for a couple of days, I understand the meaning you're trying to put across but the more I think about it, the more I dislike "was".

"I" and "music" are two different topics so I think if I'd been going for that linguistic effect, I might have used were. Either that or I'd transpose I and music to read:

Like every other fortysomething, I feel music I was better 20 years ago

so the reader more easily picks up on: (bracketed italics unspoken)

Like every other fortysomething, I feel music (no, screw that, I'm actually talking about ME) I was better 20 years ago.

But really, you're creating a whole new grammatical rule so it's down to you to decide what's correct and what isn't.
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