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Old November 21st, 2005 #1
Antiochus Epiphanes
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http://civic.bev.net/shawnee/gunshows.html

A FIELD GUIDE TO GUN SHOWS
By The Elitist

Quote:
Gun shows are an old and honored American tradition. The basic idea-putting sellers, buyers, and stock in the same room and letting Free Market Forces go to work-is as old as commerce, but the American form of gun show has evolved its own manners, vocabulary, and etiquette.

Gun shows are run by and for dreamers. Every dealer who sets up a table seems to think that the people who attend are half-wits who will happily pay 25% more than manufacturer's suggested retail price for their goods; and all the attendees hold it as an article of faith that the exhibitors are desperate men who have come in the hopes of finally disposing of their stock at 30% less than wholesale cost.

In this environment it helps to have some idea what to expect; so for the benefit of those who are so unfortunate as never to have experienced this distinctively American form of mass entertainment, I offer this guide, the summation of what I've learned from 30 years of show-going. I've included a glossary of terms you'll need to know, and an introduction to some of the people you'll meet.



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GLOSSARY
The following terms apply to items offered for sale:

MINT CONDITION: In original condition as manufactured, unfired, and preferably in the original box with all manufacturer's tags, labels, and paperwork.

NEAR-MINT CONDITION: Has had no more than 5,000 rounds fired through it and it still retains at least 60% of the original finish. Surface pitting is no more than 1/8" deep, and both grip panels are in place. If it is a .22, some of the rifling is still visible.

VERY GOOD: Non-functional when you buy it, but you can probably get it to work if you replace 100% of the parts.

FAIR: Rusted into a solid mass with a shape vaguely reminscent of a firearm.

TIGHT: In revolvers, the cylinder swings out, but you need two hands to close it again. For autoloaders, you must bang the front of the slide on a table to push it back.

REALLY TIGHT: In revolvers you cannot open the cylinder without a lever. Once it's open the extractor rod gets stuck halfway through its travel. On autoloaders, you need a hammer to close the slide.

A LITTLE LOOSE: In revolvers, the cylinder falls out and the chambers are 1/4" out of line when locked up. There is no more than 1/2" of end play. For autoloaders, the barrel falls out when the slide is retracted. If the barrel stays in place, the slide falls off.

GOOD BORE: You can tell it was once rifled and even approximately how many grooves there were.

FAIR BORE: Probably would be similar to GOOD BORE, if you could see through it.

NEEDS A LITTLE WORK: May function sometimes if you have a gunsmith replace minor parts, such as the bolt, cylinder, or barrel.

ARSENAL RECONDITIONED: I cleaned it up with a wire wheel and some stuff I bought at K-Mart.

ANTIQUE: I found it in a barn, and I think it dates from before 1960. Note that ANTIQUE guns are usually found in FAIR condition.

RARE VARIANT: No more than 500,000 of this model were ever made, not counting the ones produced before serial numbers were required. Invariably, RARE VARIANTS command a premium price of 150% of BOOK VALUE.

BOOK VALUE: An ill-defined number that dealers consider insultingly low and buyers ridiculously high. Since no one pays any attention to it, it doesn't matter who is right.

IT BELONGED TO MY GRANDFATHER: I bought it at a flea market or yard sale two weeks ago.

CIVIL WAR RELIC: The vendor's great-grandfather knew a man whose friend once said he had been in the Civil War.

SHOOTS REAL GOOD: For rifles, this means at 100 yards it will put every shot into a 14" circle if there isn't any wind and you're using a machine rest. For handguns, three out of six rounds will impact a silhouette target at seven yards. In shotguns, it means that the full choke tube throws 60% patterns with holes no larger than 8" in them.

ON CONSIGNMENT: The vendor at the show does not own the gun. It belongs to a friend, customer, or business associate, and he has been instructed to sell it, for which he will be paid a commission. He has no authority to discuss price. The price marked is 50% above BOOK VALUE. All used guns offered for sale at gun shows, without exception, are ON CONSIGNMENT, and the dealer is required by his Code of Ethics to tell you this as soon as you ask the price. (A BATF study has proven that since 1934 there has never been a single authenticated case of a used gun being offered for sale at a gun show that was actually owned by the dealer showing it.)

I'LL LET IT GO FOR WHAT I HAVE IN IT: I'll settle for what I paid for it plus a 250% profit.

MAKE ME AN OFFER: How dumb are you?

TELL ME HOW MUCH IT'S WORTH TO YOU: I'll bet you're even dumber than you look.



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PEOPLE YOU WILL MEET AT THE GUN SHOW
RAMBO: He's looking for an Ingram MAC-10, and wants to have it custom chambered in .44 Magnum as a back-up gun. For primary carry he wants a Desert Eagle, provided he can get it custom chambered in .50 BMG. He derides the .50 Action Express as a wimp round designed for ladies' pocket pistols. He has already bought three years' worth of freeze-dried MRE's from MARK, as well as seven knives. He is dressed in camoflage BDU's and a black T-shirt with the 101st AirBorne Division insignia, though he has never been in the Army. He works as a bag boy at Kroger's.

BUBBA: He needs some money, and has reluctantly decided to sell his Daddy's .30-30, a Marlin 336 made in 1961. He indignantly refuses all cash offers below his asking price of $475. Unable to sell it, eventually he trades it plus another $175 for a new-in-box H&R Topper in .219 Zipper. He feels pretty good about the deal.

GORDON: He is walking the aisles with a Remington Model 700 ADL in .30-06 on his shoulder. He's put an Uncle Mike's cordura sling and a Tasco 3x9 variable scope on it. A small stick protrudes from the barrel, bearing the words, "LIKE NEW ONLY THREE BOXES SHELLS FIRED $800." This is his third trip to a show with this particular rifle, which he has never actually used, since he lives in a shotgun-only area for deer.

DAWN: She is here with her boyfriend, DARRYL. At the last show, DARRYL bought her a Taurus Model 66 in .357 Magnum. She fired it twice and is afraid of it, but at DARRYL'S insistence she keeps it in a box on the top shelf of her clothes closet in case someone breaks in. She is dressed in a pair of blue jeans that came out of a spray can, a "Soldier of Fortune" T-shirt two sizes too small, and 4" high heels. DARRYL is ignoring her, but nobody else is.

DARRYL: He has been engaged to DAWN for three years. He likes shotguns for defense, and he's frustrated that he can't get a Street Sweeper anymore. So he's bought a Mossberg 500 with the 18-1/2" barrel, a perforated handguard, and a pistol grip. He plans to use it for squirrel hunting when he isn't sleeping with it. He plans to marry DAWN as soon as he gets a job which pays him enough to take over the payments on her mobile home. His parole officer has no idea where he is at the moment.

ARNOLD: He is a car salesman in Charlottesville, Virginia. He has a passion for Civil War guns, especially cap-and-ball revolvers. He has a reproduction Remington 1858, and is looking for a real one he can afford. He owns two other guns: a S&W Model 60 and a Sauer & Sohn drilling with Luftwaffe markings that his grandfather brought home in 1945. He has no idea what caliber the rifle barrel on his drilling is, and he last fired the Model 60 five years ago.

DICK: He is a gun dealer who makes his overhead selling Jennings J-25's, Lorcin .380's, and H&R top-break revolvers. He buys the J-25's in lots of 1000 direct from the factory at $28.75 each, and sells them for $68.00 to gun show customers. He buys the H&R's for $10 at estate auctions and asks $85 for them, letting you talk him down to $78 when he is feeling generous. His records are meticulously kept: he insists on proper ID and a signature on the 4473, but he doesn't mind if the ID and the signature aren't yours. Other than his stock, he owns no guns and he has no interest in them.

ARLENE: She is DICK's wife. She hates guns and gun shows more than anything in the world. Her husband insists that she accompany him to keep an eye on the table when he's dickering or has to go to the men's room. She refuses to come unless she can bring her SONY portable TV, even though she gets lousy reception in the Civic Center and there isn't any cable. When DICK is away from the table, she has no authority to negotiate, and demands full asking price for everything. She doesn't know the difference between a rifle and a shotgun, and what's more, she doesn't care.

MARK: He doesn't have an FFL. He buys a table at the show to sell nylon holsters, magazines, T-shirts, bumber stickers, fake Nazi regalia, surplus web gear, MRE's and accessories. He makes more money than anyone else in the hall.

ALAN: He's not a dealer, but he had a bunch of odds and ends to dispose of, so he bought a table. On it he displays used loading dies in 7.65 Belgian and .25-20, both in boxes from the original Herter's company. He also has a half-box of .38-55 cartridges, a Western-style gun belt he hasn't been able to wear since 1978, a used cleaning kit, and a nickel-plated Iver Johnson Premier revolver in .32 S&W. He's asking $125 for the gun and $40 for each of the die sets. He paid $35 for the table and figures he needs to get at least that much to cover his expenses and the value of his time.

GERALD: He's a physician specializing in diseases of the rich. He collects Brownings, and specializes in High-Power pistols, Superposed shotguns, and Model 1900's. He has 98% of the known variations of each of these, and now plans to branch out into the 1906 and 1910 pocket pistols. He owns no handguns made after the Germans left Liege in 1944. He regards Japanese-made "Brownings" as a personal insult and is a little contempuous of Inglis-made High-Powers. He does not hunt or shoot. He buys all his gun accessories from Orvis and Dunn's.

KEVIN: He is 13, and this is his first gun show. His eyes are bugged out with amazement, and he wonders what his J.C. Higgins single-shot 20-gauge is worth. His father gives him an advance on his allowance so he can buy a used Remington Nylon 66. He's hooked for life and will end up on the NRA's Board of Directors.
 
Old November 21st, 2005 #2
Sean Martin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes
Gun shows are run by and for dreamers. Every dealer who sets up a table seems to think that the people who attend are half-wits who will happily pay 25% more than manufacturer's suggested retail price for their goods; and all the attendees hold it as an article of faith that the exhibitors are desperate men who have come in the hopes of finally disposing of their stock at 30% less than wholesale cost.

I used to go to gun shows and came to the conclusion that they were nothing more than places for people who canít legally own guns to purchase them. They would sell those raven 25 autos for $125 when you could buy them new at the gun store for $30. They would sell beaten CZís for $250-300 when at the time you could order one in good condition for $75. They would dress up other guns and sell them for $1,000 +, when you could buy the same thing at the gun store around $300.

Overall I would say fairly accurate. Especially about the guy who sold holsters and such making the most money. However from what I have seen of gun shows, most of the gun dealers made their big money deals out behind a building. I would be there and never see a dealer sell a gun, then he would walk away empty handed go behind his vehicle or something else and come back counting a handful of money.

In my opinion gun shows are a waste of time and really serve no purpose to law abiding citizens.

You want a good weapon? Buy it new and keep your warranty. If you know the dealer he wonít rip you if you are unsatisfied with the gun (noting is wrong with the gun but you just donít like it), and you can bring it back and trade it in on something else. Or buy from friends.
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Old November 21st, 2005 #3
T.J. McAllister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
You want a good weapon? Buy it new and keep your warranty. If you know the dealer he wonít rip you if you are unsatisfied with the gun (noting is wrong with the gun but you just donít like it), and you can bring it back and trade it in on something else. Or buy from friends.
The best way, in my opinion, is to look in the local classifieds. There's one in my area, a free rag called the "Little Nickel" and they have an entire section devoted to firearms. Since most of the listings are private citizens there is no paper trail, no waiting period, and they are usually desperate to sell them because they need the money. Good opportunity to haggle. Only thing is there is a chance that some shady folks are selling weapons which are "hot".
 
Old November 21st, 2005 #4
Sean Martin
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We have a paper like that. But when I look in the paper, I see S&Wís priced at $650 when you can go to the local gun store and buy the same gun for $399. In this area all privates sells are inflated, I donít think people know that the weapons ban was lifted. Another problem we have is people who have stocked up on pre-ban weapons and now are trying to sell them (late) for the huge price they thought they would bring if the ban lasted forever.

The only good private gun sales I see in this area are single shotguns or the like. If you are looking for a handgun or an automatic rifle, forget it because people think they are worth $1,000 or more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reusser
The best way, in my opinion, is to look in the local classifieds. There's one in my area, a free rag called the "Little Nickel" and they have an entire section devoted to firearms. Since most of the listings are private citizens there is no paper trail, no waiting period, and they are usually desperate to sell them because they need the money. Good opportunity to haggle. Only thing is there is a chance that some shady folks are selling weapons which are "hot".
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Old November 22nd, 2005 #5
JoeSixPack
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The last two gun shows I went to (Georgia) were not at all as you describe, Doc.

All the sales I saw were through legit dealers; there were some citizens carrying potential trades but most of the guns there were brand new and offered for significantly LESS than MSRP.

What bothered me were the sellers hawking shitty Chinese made "Tactical Gear".
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Old November 22nd, 2005 #6
Steve B
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes
http://civic.bev.net/shawnee/gunshows.html

A FIELD GUIDE TO GUN SHOWS
By The Elitist
Heh! That was good.

This one was my favorite:
Quote:
PEOPLE YOU WILL MEET AT THE GUN SHOW
RAMBO: He's looking for an Ingram MAC-10, and wants to have it custom chambered in .44 Magnum as a back-up gun. For primary carry he wants a Desert Eagle, provided he can get it custom chambered in .50 BMG. He derides the .50 Action Express as a wimp round designed for ladies' pocket pistols. He has already bought three years' worth of freeze-dried MRE's from MARK, as well as seven knives. He is dressed in camoflage BDU's and a black T-shirt with the 101st AirBorne Division insignia, though he has never been in the Army. He works as a bag boy at Kroger's.
 
Old November 22nd, 2005 #7
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If I ever get back in the gun game I may pay a visit there.

The best place around here to buy guns, is the pawn shop. They are usually sold at decent prices and they are checked out by the law so you are not getting a hot gun (or at least no one reported it stolen). The 3 pawnshops here have people that know their guns; one of the guys was an armorer (sp?) for the army for 8 years. There is also a gun store that sells on consignment, so you can get some really good deals there as well. Another one I know is owned by a guy that stocks up on cheap surplus guns and sells them with very little markup. He sells the Russian m-44 7.62x54 (in about 90% condition) for $62.00 out the door. He also stocks up on the cheaper guns such as ravens ($35 and a good gun) and the cheap hi-points for under $100. He makes his money with volume.

Yesterday I saw a mossberg pump 12 gauge on clearance for $154.99. I have seen them drop them as low as $139, I almost bought one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeSixPack
Doc.

All the sales I saw were through legit dealers; there were some citizens carrying potential trades but most of the guns there were brand new and offered for significantly LESS than MSRP.
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Old November 25th, 2005 #8
J.Hartman
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Gun shows in my experience have cleaned up thier act in the last 10 years or so. Increased scrutiny by law enforcement and increases in license fees.

Most dealers are small timers who don't have a retail store or work out of thier basement, keeps the overhead down for them. I have made most of my purchases at shows getting good prices.

I pretty much go to shows now for bulk ammo purchases and accessories and stuff, plus I enjoy the "whiteness" of gun shows.
 
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