Vanguard News Network
VNN Media
VNN Digital Library
VNN Reader Mail
VNN Broadcasts

Old September 6th, 2008 #1121
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo:

I haven’t yet come across a criminal site investigation report for Sobibor but there is an archaeological report (in a broader sense) in the form of Prof. Kola’s public statements quoted in a Reuters press release kindly provided by Gerdes:

Quote:

"Polish archaeologists excavating the Nazi death camp in Sobibor said on Friday they had found mass graves at the site, which was evacuated by German occupying forces in October 1943 after a prisoner uprising. The excavations were the first since World War Two at the former camp, which was subsequently forested over. They could provide valuable new evidence on the number of victims, mainly Jews, who died in the Sobibor gas chambers. According to official Polish accounts, 250,000 people were killed in Sobibor, which was opened in May 1942 and lies close to the eastern border with Ukraine.''We uncovered seven mass graves with an average depth of five meters. In them there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay. That means that in the final stage the victims were burned,'' archaeologist Andrzej Kola was quoted by the Polish PAP news agency telling a news conference. He said the largest grave measured 70 meters by 25 meters, the others 20 by 25 meters.'

Oh thank you dull one. (Have I ever told you that you're priceless?)

1 -Let's see proof that there have been any "excavations" of any alleged mass grave at Sobibor.
What would you accept as proof, Mr. Gerdes?

What rules and standards of evidence are your demands based on?

And where do those rules and standards say that an archaeologist’s public description of his findings on site is not proof that he made those findings, bar evidence of manipulation?

Let’s hear, Mr. Gerdes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
2 - Let's see the exact location - photo with accurate descripion and plotted on a map - of ALL 7 alleged "huge mass graves."
I cannot yet show you a photo of all 7 mass graves, but I can show you a photo of some of them (which you already know) and an archaeologist’s map plotting the mass graves at the places where the photos show ground coloration patterns compatible with mass graves.

Would you accept this as proof that there are mass graves in the areas where the ground coloration patterns on the photo match the plotting on the archaeologist’s map, Mr. Gerdes?

Yes or No?

If "No", why not? What logical reasoning, or what rules or standards of evidence that you can show us, would still be in the way of your accepting the photo, in conjunction with the map, as proof of the existence of the mass graves shown on both?

Let’s hear, Mr. Gerdes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
3 - Let's see proof that there has been - "Charred human remians / remains in a state of decay / burned" - bodies found at Sobibor.
An archaeologist’s public statement is proof enough, as far as I’m concerned. If it’s not proof enough for you, please specify what exactly you would accept as proof and what rules or standards of evidence your demands are based on.

Let’s hear, Mr. Gerdes. Make a wish-list, and convince me that it’s a reasonable one.

Or shall we assume that you don't know what you're talking about when you yell for "proof"?

That would be no surprise, of course.
 
Old September 6th, 2008 #1122
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cillian View Post
Roberto: just tell him there are no teeth because the nazi's used them to make mattresses for German women.
Who said there are no teeth?
 
Old September 6th, 2008 #1123
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Regardo:

"These photos show but a small fraction of the human remains found at the camps in question."

Liar. They show virtually all the human remains found at the camps in question.
Little birdie told you, or did you smoke something weird? Your claim is at odds with all known evidence and makes no sense whatsoever. Try again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
In fact, for most of them, you can't prove that they were taken at the claimed locations.
What would you accept as proof that the photos were taken at the "claimed" locations, Mr. Gerdes? I’m curious to read that, it should be funny.

The source captions are proof of the locations bar evidence to the contrary, which is for you to provide. It may be comfortable to shift the burden of proof to your opponent the way you try to do, but it also sucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Of course, you're free to show us EXACTLY were the rest of the remians are. What are you waiting for dull one?
I’m waiting for Gerdes to tell us what the relevance of his "EXACTLY" demand is supposed to be, first of all.

Then he can make a wish list of what he would accept as proof of the "EXACT" location of the remains in question, if documentary and eyewitness evidence to mass murder and documentation of the physical evidence by criminal investigators or archaeologists is not good enough for him.

And then he can try convincing me that his wish list is a reasonable one and not just a miserable coward's attempt to hide from facts incompatible with his ideological articles of faith.

The last part should be particularly entertaining.
 
Old September 6th, 2008 #1124
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo:

"...the number of dead bodies that could be buried in those mass graves before the body disposal method at Sobibor was changed to open-air cremation."

You mean the open-air "cremations" as described by the "eyewitnesses" in post ##1064?

Thank you Roberta. Have I ever told you that you're priceless?
I mean open-air cremations like were successfully conducted on a smaller scale after the bombing of Dresden on 13/14 February 1945. Nothing implausible about that, see my post # 1113 and the sources referred to therein. Eyewitness descriptions of the process are essentially correct, however much you kick and scream.
 
Old September 6th, 2008 #1125
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo:

"Always glad to help, Mr. Gerdes"

Please notice that the lying jewbitch did not get the photo from me.
If lying makes one a "jewbitch", our White members would be well advised to check Gerdes’ Aryan background.

I got the photo from the same source that you got it from, Mr. Gerdes. So?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
How long have you been sitting on it dull one?
I got it after you got it, my dear friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
For as long as you've been sitting on the alleged map that you have?
No, that one I got even later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Thanks for proving yet again what a fraud you are Retardo.
If I decided to save exhibits for a proper occasion (which I did not do regarding these two), why would that make me a "fraud", Mr. Gerdes? Because it pisses you off? Try giving a better reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo:

"Now, what do we see on this air photo?"

Well, it's easier to tell you what we don't see:

No mass graves.

No human remains.

NO proof of mass murder.

Nothing.

Any other questions?
Sure.

How do you know the photo shows no mass graves?

How do you know the lush green areas are not mass graves, being as they are at a place where all known evidence shows mass murder to have happened, and explainable as they are by the fertilizing effect of human remains underground?

What alternative explanation do you have for those lush green areas, Mr. Gerdes (one of your fellow retards already tried and failed miserably, as I shall show in an upcoming article on HC)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo:

"The grass is greener over the graves, a phenomenon that is easily explained by the fertilizing effects of the Scotts turf builder applied to the greener areas."

Yes dull one, that can be easily seen.
Reduced to messing with my statements again, Gerdes? Boy, what a sorry show you’re putting up. What I wrote in post # 1097 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...postcount=1097 was the following:

Quote:
The grass is greener over the graves, a phenomenon that is easily explained by the fertilizing effects of the human remains inside the graves. These remains apparently act as a sort of dung, and therefore grass and weeds grow more thickly over the mass graves than in the surrounding area. This phenomenon has also been observed at Chelmno, according to Dr. Nowak’s article quoted in my post # 1040 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...postcount=1040 (emphasis added):

Quote:
The fifth grave
The last grave, or rather a line of pits filled with ashes, was not commemorated with any walls; in the 1960s it was already not discernible on the surface. On the basis of the description by Judge W. Bednarz it appears that in 1945 the pits were examined by him.
The total length of these pits equals 161 m. The stretch is made up of 11 pits, each located about 2-3 m from another. The dimensions of the pits vary from 9x7.5 m to 15.50x8.50 m. They are filled with gray soil with a significant mixture of burn waste and crushed human bones. In the southern (SE) part of the grave the bones found in the pits used to be ground; those in further parts - crushed. According to W. Bednarz, the depth of the pits was about 4 m, and the width 8-10 m. Even now the flora on the pits is more luxuriant, making this stretch more visible on the surface.
Any alternative explanation you wish to propose, Mr. Gerdes?

Please answer the question.

Or are you going to run away from it like you’re been running away from my questions about the core samples, among many others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo:

"Now, how do we know that the greener areas are mass graves? We also know it because the greener places happen to coincide with the places where Prof. Kola identified the mass graves in 2001. Care to know why I've been such a fraud and not shared this information, Mr. Gerdes?"

You said it yourself dull one - because you're a liar and a coward and a fraud.
Projecting you own defects (mendacity, cowardice and fraudulence) onto your opponent again, Mr. Gerdes?

I received this exhibit after I received the photo, which I received after you did. And even if I had held it back for a proper occasion, that wouldn’t make me what you are (i.e. a liar, coward and fraud), so cut the crap.

Care to see that exhibit, Mr. Gerdes?

All you have to do is ask politely.
 
Old September 6th, 2008 #1126
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Please notice that the dull one has also yet to show the locations of the 7 alleged "huge mass graves" allegedly "excavated" by Kola.

Where are they dull one?
Not that I have a problem with what you’re demanding, but please tell me, Mr. Gerdes:

Why would I have to show everything you yell for?

Just because you yell for it?

Give me a better reason.
 
Old September 6th, 2008 #1127
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo:

"Certainly, especially his [Kola's] report about Belzec, which you seem to be so scared of that you chose to remove Belzec from the NAFCASH challenge."

Really? Perhaps you can tell us all then, when exactly are you going to accept my new challenge to you - coward?

My latest CODOH post (Gerdes pledges to pay Kola's Sobibor bill):

Well, RM has been caught in yet another lie.

But don't worry, he's just told another lie to cover up his old lie:

Quote:
Quote:
Not yet, my friend. The supposed contradiction between the information I provided and Yoram Haimi's e-mail is easy to explain.

As I learned from Yoram Haimi during a conversation this week, he heard about Prof. Kola’s funding problems not from Prof. Kola himself (I misunderstood him in this respect during our first conversation), but from a third source. Yoram Haimi, as I gathered during our recent conversation, is skeptical of whether the information given to him by this third source, about Prof. Kola having refused publication of a report due to funding problems, is accurate information. As a professional archaeologist, he has some problem believing that money is the problem, or the only problem, that Prof. Kola has with the Polish government. Hence his careful statement that he doesn’t know what Prof. Kola’s problem is. That’s all.
That's funny - I think everyone here knows "what his problem is!" LOL!!!

So what should I do with this thread?


I have an idea. If any one of the holocaust controversies freaks can prove that Belzecs grave #10, the largest of all the alleged "huge mass graves" allegedly found at Belzec by Kola himself, contains the remains - of just 600 jews - (Yes, that hundred, not thousand), I will pledge $5,000.00 myself to The Sobibor Archaeology Project in said freaks name.


They have till the end of this month and the "proof" has to be posted here or on VNN.


* For this site, that should read:

and the "proof" has to be posted here or on CODOH



Now how hard should that be?

Remember, grave #10 contains 10% of all the volume of the alleged "huge mass graves" allegedly found at Belzec, so according to Kola's "findings," it should contain the remains of at least 60,000 jews.

Isn't it funny how Kolas own alleged "evidence" for the alleged "huge mass graves" of Belzec is so fraudulent, that it can't even be used to help raise $5,000.00 for The Sobibor Archaeology Project?"

OH THE IRONY!

Ha ha ha!!!

26 days left boys - get crackin faggots!
Why didn’t you read my blog article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...attention.html , as I twice asked you to do, Mr. Gerdes?

The response to the first redux version of what used to be a $ 100,000 challenge (for Belzec used to be included in the NAFCASH challenge), is contained in that article and will be quoted hereafter:

Quote:
Belzec grave # 10 is described as follows in Prof. Andrzej Kola’s book BEŁŻEC The Nazi Camp for Jews in the Light of Archaeological Sources, quoted in Part 3 of my article Carlo Mattogno on Belzec Archaeological Research:
The grave pit No 10 (Fig 27)
One of the biggest graves, in bottom view of a rectangular shape with the size of about 24,00 x 18,00 m. Situated in the north-central part of ha XV, basing on 16 deep drills (No 482-490, 494, 496-499, 501, 520); in some neighbourhood, much more shallow drills (with the ground bottom of about 1,50 m) crematory remains were reported. The grave was very deep (the drills in particular places were stopped at the depth of 4,25 to 5,20 m, because of bodies in wax-fat transformation and underground waters presence). One drill (No 483) at the depth of 4,40 m revealed the appearance of several cm layer of white sand mixed with rich lime. Over body layers there were some levels of crematory remains mixed with charcoal in turn with layers of sandy soil (20 cm). The edge parts of the pit are filled shallow, to the depth of about 1,50 m, probably because of getting some soil to make next layers between the bodies. That fact caused widening of the grave which was filled with next body remains. The estimated volume of the grave amounts about 2100 m3.
.
The total estimated volume of the 33 mass graves at Belzec is 21,310 cubic meters – room enough, according to the considerations in Section 4.1 of my Mattogno-Belzec article, to bury the corpses of over 434,000 people, known through documentary evidence to have been transported to Belzec and through documentary and eyewitness evidence to have been murdered there, before the mass graves were emptied and the corpses were burned. If Prof. Kola's team managed to identify all mass graves of the Belzec extermination camp during the archaeological investigations conducted between 1997 and 1999, this means that the 434,508 people known to have been transported to Belzec minus a handful of survivors were buried in these 21,310 cubic meters of mass grave before the general exhumation and burning of the bodies started. A mass grave with a volume of 2,100 cubic meters would thus have contained almost one-tenth of the total of corpses, roughly 42,800 of them.

Between November 1942 and March 1943, the bodies were removed from the mass graves and burned at first one and then two fireplaces – see the testimony of former SS-man Heinrich Gley, quoted in Section 4.2 of my Mattogno-Belzec article. The ash, bone fragments and other partial remains left over by cremation were returned to the mass graves, where they were found by Prof. Kola's team decades later – insofar as they had not been projected to the surface and scattered by subsequent leveling of and robbery digging in the area. On page 20 of his Belzec book, Prof. Kola wrote the following:
The excavations proved many layers of body ashes mixed with sand in turn, which indicated that the pits were used in many stages, each time covered with a new sand layer. One can suppose that the ashes filled the pits completely, and only a very thin layer of surface soil was used as a cover. Therefore during the camp closing in 1943 year and levelling works taken up at that time, as well as robbery digs around the camp area directly after the war, the most part of body ashes was placed over the surface, and even now the presence of burnt bodies' traces is quite clear in the surface structures, particularly in the western and northern part of the camp. In those very parts the zone of graves was located.

Assuming that the cremation remains of two-thirds of the 434,500 people murdered at Belzec were brought to the surface and scattered during the dismantling of the camp and posterior robbery digging, the remains of about 144,800 people would still be inside the graves. Assuming that the backfilling of the graves with cremation remains by the SS was done evenly and every mass grave thus received an amount of such remains more or less corresponding to the amount of bodies that had once been buried in it, this would mean that grave # 10, with almost 10 % of the total burial volume, still contains the remains of about 14,270 human beings – more than twice the number required by Gerdes.

Another way of estimating the contents of grave # 10 is to consider the height of the layers of human remains found therein, according to the above-quoted description of this grave in Kola's book. While there’s no information about the thickness of the layer of corpses in wax-fat transformation inside this grave – on page 20 of his book, Kola wrote that in some graves "the layer of corpses reached the thickness of ca 2,00"), the description suggests that the grave contains several layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal", alternating at intervals of 20 cm with "layers of sandy soil".

A layer of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" 20 cm thick would, considering the area of the mass grave (24 x 18 = 432 square meters), have a volume of 432 x 0.20 = 86.40 cubic meters. In Section 4.5 of my Mattogno-Belzec article, I calculated that the cremation of 434,000 people would leave the following volume of human and wood ashes, according to data from cremation experiments conducted by Carlo Mattogno:
Therefore – and this, as pointed out, is a maximum calculation knowingly based on exaggerated assumptions regarding the weight of the corpses to be incinerated – the victims’ ash and the wood ash together would have taken up 1,519 + 3,574 = 5,093 or 1,519 + 7,148 = 8,667 cubic meters of volume, i.e. less than 24 % or less than 41 % of the grave volume of 21,310 cubic meters.

Human ashes would thus make up at least 17.53 % (1,519 ÷ 8,667) and at most 29.83 % (1,519 ÷ 5,093) of the mass of human plus wood ashes. Applied to 86.40 cubic meters of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal", this means that each such layer in Belzec grave # 10 contains at least 15.14 cubic meters, but possibly as much as 25.77cubic meters, of "crematory remains". 15.14 cubic meters of human ashes, according to Mattogno’s calculations used in Section 4.5 of my Mattogno-Belzec article, correspond to 7.57 tons of the same, which in turn correspond to a life or pre-cremation weight of 151,43 tons or 151,430 kilograms. Assuming – as I did in my aforementioned article – an average of 35 kg of pre-cremation weight per dead body, this would correspond to 151,430 ÷ 35 = 4,327 dead bodies. Assuming, as Mattogno did, an exaggerated average (considering that the Jews deported to Belzec were mostly women and children) of 45 kg of pre-cremation weight per dead body, we would have the remains of 3,365 people in each 20 cm layer of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" in Belzec grave # 10. Assuming a ridiculously unrealistic 60 kg per dead body, the amount of human ashes in such layer would still correspond to 2,524 dead bodies. If the proportion of human ashes was 29.93 %, the respective numbers would be 7,363 (35 kg), 5,726 (45 kg) and 4,295 (60 kg) bodies per layer.

How many such layers are inside grave # 10 we do not know, but even if the soil cover on top of the grave were two meters thick (which is unlikely, as Kola reports having found crematory remains in drills only 1.50 meters deep "in some neighbourhood") and bodies in wax-fat transformation or layers of "white sand mixed with rich lime" started at a depth of 4 meters (actually bodies in wax-fat transformation were encountered at 4.25 meters in some parts of the grave while sand and lime was found at 4.40 meters in others), the two meters in between would still contain 5 layers of 20 cm each containing "crematory remains mixed with charcoal", alternated with 5 equally thick layers of sand. This would mean that grave # 10 contains the remains of the following number of human beings, not counting the bodies in wax-fat transformation at the bottom of the grave:

a) Assuming 15.14 cubic meters of human ashes in each layer containing 86.40 cubic meters of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" and 5 such layers

• At average body weight of 35 kg: 5 x 4,327 = 21,633 bodies
• At average body weight of 45 kg: 5 x 3,365 = 16,826 bodies
• At average body weight of 60 kg: 5 x 2,524 = 12,619 bodies

b) Assuming 25.77 cubic meters of human ashes in each layer containing 86.40 cubic meters of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" and 5 such layers

• At average body weight of 35 kg: 5 x 7,363 = 36,813 bodies
• At average body weight of 45 kg: 5 x 5,726 = 28,632 bodies
• At average body weight of 60 kg: 5 x 4,295 = 21,474 bodies

The minimum number of dead bodies that these calculations turn out is 12,619, more than double the number Gerdes wants to see proven. That's assuming an average pre-cremation weight of 60 kg per body, which is ridiculously exaggerated considering that deportees to Belzec were mostly malnourished women and children from miserable Polish ghettos. And it only considers the layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" mentioned by Prof. Kola, not the bodies in wax-fat transformation at the bottom of grave # 10.

This means that, if Gerdes were reasonably prepared to accept reasonable, evidence-backed estimates like the above as proof that Belzec grave # 10 contains human remains corresponding to at least 6,000 dead bodies, he should now go about making good his pledge to donate $5,000.00 to "Kola's Sobibor report fund".

If, on the other hand, what Gerdes wants to see is a physical quantification of human remains contained in grave # 10 at Belzec and an expert's confirmation that the remains so quantified correspond to at least 6,000 human bodies, his requirements are at least very difficult to meet. For they would imply the following:

i) Excavating this mass grave (something that Prof. Kola did not do due to considerations of respect for the dead he had to comply with, see Part 1 of my Mattogno-Belzec article),
ii) Extracting the layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" contained therein,
iii) Separating the crematory remains from the charcoal,
iv) Establishing the weight and volume of the crematory remains thus separated and
v) Having an expert provide an assessment of the number of human bodies to which these crematory remains correspond.

First of all, it is unlikely that anyone will obtain permission to excavate any of the Belzec mass graves, already because the area has been turned into an elaborate memorial.

Second, even if excavations were to be authorized, despite the disturbances of the memorial area they would presumably imply, long and arduous archaeological work would be required to remove the aforementioned layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" from the mass grave.

Third, once the layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" had been extracted from the grave, how would one separate the charcoal from the crematory remains in a manner that allows for accurately quantifying the latter? I strongly doubt that this is possible. But maybe Gerdes can tell us how he would do it.

Fourth, assuming that the crematory remains can be separated from the charcoal in a manner allowing for reliably quantifying the crematory remains, could an expert in matters of cremation accurately establish to how many human beings these remains belonged? One doesn’t have to be a cremation expert to realize that this is impossible, considering the variables involved, and that the most an expert can provide is an estimate based on assumptions that, however reasonable and realisitic they may be, cannot be empirically confirmed.

So if Gerdes were only to accept as proof an exact physical quantification in the sense described above, he would be asking for something that is very hard if not impossible to accomplish.

This, in turn, would make his "pledge" into yet another of Gerdes fraudulent publicity stunts, and the derisive howling in his CODOH post Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:02 pm:
Remember, grave #10 contains 10% of all the volume of the alleged "huge mass graves" allegedly found at Belzec, so according to Kola's findings, it should contain the remains of at least 60,000 jews.

Isn't it funny how Kolas own alleged "evidence" for the alleged "huge mass graves" of Belzec is so fraudulent, that it can't even be used to help him raise $5,000.00 so he will release / publish his alleged Sobibor "evidence" of "huge mass graves?"

OH THE IRONY! Ha ha ha!!!

Or are the holocaust controversies freaks going to prove me wrong?

You've got til the end of the month boys - get cracking.

Ya just gotta laugh.


a particularly instructive example of idiocy and dishonesty even by Gerdian standards.

So which of them is it, Mr. Gerdes?

Will you accept a reasonable, evidence-backed estimate, like those presented above, as proof that Belzec grave # 10 contains the remains of at least 6,000 dead people?

If so, better go get your money.

Or will you require a precise physical quantification that, for the reasons described above, is very difficult if not impossible to accomplish?

If so, thanks a lot for once more exposing your utter fraudulence..
If the number of dead bodies is now down to 600, I don’t even need to count the layers of crematory remains mixed with charcoal in grave # 10. One layer has more than four times that many (2,524) under the most generously unrealistic of assumptions as concerns the victims’ average pre-cremation weight.

So which of them is it, Mr. Gerdes?

Will you accept a reasonable, evidence-backed estimate, like those presented above, as proof that Belzec grave # 10 contains the remains of at least 6,000 dead people (or at least 600, if you prefer)?

If so, better go get your money.

Or will you require a precise physical quantification that, for the reasons described above, is very difficult if not impossible to accomplish?

If so, thanks a lot for once more exposing your utter fraudulence.

Disburse $ 5,000 or admit that you’re a coward and your challenge is as fraudulent as the challenge on your stinking website, the only difference being the reward amount.

Which of them shall it be, Mr. Gerdes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
* Edit addition:

Since RM is such a big fan of the "eyewitnesses," I thought I would help him out a bit with the following from Mattogno's Belzec book:

2.1. Testimonies

As we have explained above, Kurt Gerstein and Rudolf Reder are the two
principal witnesses regarding the camp at Belzec. Both of them give a detailed description of the mass graves. In a declaration made before the Jewish historical commission in 1945, Reder stated:

“A grave was 100 m long and 25 m wide. A single grave contained
about 100,000 persons. In November 1942 there were 30 graves, i.e. 3 million corpses.”

During the interrogation, which was conducted by the investigative judge
Jan Sehn on December 29, 1945, the witness strengthened his declaration further:

“The graves were all dug to the same dimensions and measured 100 m
in length, 25 m in width and 15 m in depth.”

In his famous report of April 26, 1945, Gerstein wrote:

“Then the naked bodies were thrown into large trenches about 100 by
20 by 12 m, situated near the death chambers.”

And in the report he wrote on May 6, 1945, he affirmed:

“The naked corpses were thrown onto wooden carts [and then] into pits
only a short distance away and measuring 100 by 12 by 20 meters.”

2.2. First Judicial Findings

...the Zamosc prosecutor, who, in his report of April 11, 1946, wrote:

“All mass graves had the same dimensions: 100 m in length, 25 m in
width, and 15 m in depth... There may well have been thirty, forty, and even more graves of this kind in the camp.”

And let's not forget that Shermer himself used Readers "eyewitness testimony" in "proving" the Belzec holocaust story.
This is from the continuation of my above-mentioned article, which you find under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...ntion-1st.html and where I also comment on yet another of your lame and self-projecting "lie" accusations:

Quote:
Having received no feedback to his CODOH post of Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:29 pm more than four hours later, Gerdes tried to get his fellow believers' attention with a classic "Revisionist" fuss about eyewitness testimonies, quoting Mattogno's rant about oh-so-outrageously exaggerated figures in the testimonies of Rudolf Reder and Kurt Gerstein.

What is one supposed to conclude from these exaggerations, other than that Reder and Gerstein were not too good at figures and maybe prone to exaggerate, and that therefore the information they provided should be used only insofar as corroborated by other evidence independent of them? Nothing, I would say.

One thing that neither Gerdes nor the more intelligent Mattogno seem to have realized or given any importance to is the fact that Reder and Gerstein provided their testimonies independently of each other, at different times and before different entities that did not communicate. So however obviously wrong certain details in the testimonies of these two eyewitnesses may be, they corroborate each other regarding the essential facts of mass murder at Belzec extermination camp that become apparent from the narrative of both.

The inability – or unwillingness – to grasp this simple logic is, like many other fallacies of "Revisionist" argumentation, due to the fact that "Revisionists" can’t help being themselves.
Thanks for an opportunity to show that even the most intelligent of "Revisionist" gurus (Mattogno) can be as dumb as Gerdes on occasion, Mr. Gerdes.
 
Old September 6th, 2008 #1128
Greg Gerdes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,129
Greg Gerdes
Default

Retardo:

"Of course we don’t even need the above site investigation report to consider it proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that hundreds of thousands of people were murdered at Treblinka, that their bodies were burned and that the bones left over from the burning were ground. All it takes to prove that is the documentary evidence showing the minimum number of people who disappeared from the face of the earth at Treblinka and the many eyewitnesses testimonies, including such from participants in the killing, that describe the killing and body disposal procedure."

Then submitt your evidence to "skeptic' magazine coward.

How about just one pound of crushed bone out of millions and just one tooth out ouf tens of millions?

Let's see just one Retardo.

ONE.


Retardo:

"The same applies to Sobibor. There we have information, from Prof. Kola’s archaeological investigation in 2001, that gives an idea of the amount of human remains, be it crushed bones, ashes of human tissue or human remains only partially burned or not burned at all. This statement by Prof. Kol, contains data that allow for establishing the size of the graves:

Quote:
"We uncovered seven mass graves with an average depth of 15ft. In them there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay. That means that in the final stage the victims were burned," said Andrzej Kola, an archaeologist. He said the largest grave measured 210ft by 75ft, the others 60ft by 75ft.


What human remians Retardo? What crushed bone? What human ashes? And what about real teeth? And what mass graves?

Can you show us ONE:

pound of crushed bones?

real human tooth?

burned body?

I didn't think so.

Oh, and we're still waiting for you to show us where the 7 alleged "huge mass graves" are. - All 7. We have 3 or 5. We're waiting for a visual with a description of all 7 graves. What are you waiting for liar?


Retardo:

"The size of the graves, in turn, leads to the conclusion that, if human remains could be detected by core drilling and some excavation in graves of this size, there must be rather large amounts of human remains inside these graves."

What graves Retardo? Let's see all 7.

What human remains Retardo? Let's see proof of human remains found at Sobibor (just wait folks, we get to see the partial skeleton in the glass case again! LOL!!! Have I ever told you that you're priceless Retardo?)

What excavations Retardo? Show us one single "huge mass grave" that has been excavated.

What "rather large amounts of human remains inside these graves" Retado? If that is so, then it should be real easy for you to show us just a small amount. What are you waiting for dull one?

Retardo:


"So your claim that I can’t prove "one single pound" of any type of human remains is utter bullshit."


Really? Then let's see it. (And please notice how she's trying to obfuscate with the "any type" nonsense.

Show us one pound of crushed bone dull one.

Not bones, not "ashes" (yet you've yet to prove that there is a single pound of that either), but crushed bone.

ONE SINGLE POUND - out of the alleged 1.825 million.


Retardo:

"I can prove any amount of any type of human remains."


Really? Let's see it.

Lets see all evidence of all types of human remains.

Break it down for us and show us every bit of evidence that you have.

Let's see all 7 graves allegedly found.

Lets see all teeth allegedly found. (real ones stupid)

Lets see all the crushed bone.

Lets see all the human ashes.

And don't forget to show us the proof that what your claiming to be human has actually been proven to be human.

And let's see prove that ONE partial skeleton that can be found at Sobibor is from a greasy jew. (Which you know for a fact it isn't)


Retardo:

"What you may claim is that I cannot visually, photographically show you a given amount of a given type of human remains from a given camp. And my answer to that irrelevant claim is a simple question:

So what?"


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Priceless.
 
Old September 6th, 2008 #1129
Greg Gerdes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,129
Greg Gerdes
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
]Retardo:

"Actually all known evidence suggests that the ashes and bones in the glass display at the foot of the Sobibor monument are what they are stated to be, ashes and bones of Jews murdered at Sobibor."

Liar - Prove it..


Retardo:

You don’t prove logic, you understand (or, as in your case, are unable to understand it).

1. All known eyewitness, documentary and physical evidence (including but not limited to the evidence listed in my post # 777 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...&postcount=777 ) shows that at least about 150,000 Jews were murdered at Sobibor, and that their bodies were cremated resulting in ashes, bone fragments and also bones and other remains that were left over by the cremation procedure.

2. There is a photo of a glass display at Sobibor stated to contain human ashes and bones, and the aspect of this glass display's contents on the photo suggests that they are actually human ashes and bones.

3. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that what you see on the photo of the glass display are the ashes and bones of some of the people murdered at Sobibor.

This is a logical conclusion derived from the aspect of the glass display’s contents on the photo and all known evidence to what happened at Sobibor. It is valid until you provide evidence that what you see on the glass display photo are not actually human ashes and bones, or at least evidence that points to this possibility. Bar such evidence (which is for you to provide), the conclusion stands."

Those remains are not those of a greasy jew, as Yoram and his greasy ilk know very well.
 
Old September 6th, 2008 #1130
Greg Gerdes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,129
Greg Gerdes
Default

Retardo:

"No, Gerdes. You prove that those are not what their aspect and all known evidence about mass murder at Sobibor suggest them to be." The ball is in your court."

Which proves that not one iota from any core sample taken at Sobibor has been proven to be human.

The ball is back in your court dull one.

BTW dull one, have I ever told you that you're priceless?

Retardo:

As to Sobibor, the contents of the glass display visible on the photo alone (ashes that can be assumed to have resulted either directly from cremation or from bone-crushing following cremation) mean you’re full of shit. Unless, of course, you can provide evidence proving that what you see on the glass display photo are not human remains.

Which means, the only remians that can be found at Sobibor that are human - i.e. - the bones in the glass display case, were not cremated or crushed and are known for a fact by the jews to not be from a greasy jew and the alleged "ashes" have never been proven to be human "ashes."

Thank you dull one.

Retardo:

"The archaeologist didn’t mention quantities, but it stands to reason that mass graves of the dimensions he described must have contained a lot more than just a few pounds of the remains he mentioned.

Proving that not so much as a single pound of crushed bone has ever been located at Sobibor.

Oh, and we're still wainting for the map that shows the location of ALL 7 alleged "huge mass graves."

What are you waiting for dull one?

Retardo:

"Yelling for "one" or "one pound" is stupid, because "one" wouldn’t prove much and because proof of any quantity corresponding to what is known about the scale of the killing and the body disposal procedure logically follows from proof of that killing and body disposal procedure, which in turn is contained in the documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence to the killing and body disposal. Whether I am able to visually show you a given amount of physical exhibits is perfectly irrelevant."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Thank you dull one. Have I ever told you that you're priceless?
 
Old September 6th, 2008 #1131
Greg Gerdes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,129
Greg Gerdes
Default

Retardo:

"Ladies & Gentlemen, Mr. Gerdes will now explain why, by what rules or standards other than his own, descriptions of mass graves by eyewitnesses to the events leading to such mass graves, by criminal investigators or by archaeologists are not proof of the existence of such mass graves."


Descriptions of mass graves by eyewitnesses? Really?

That means there are six "huge mass graves" at Treblinka (one of which has already proven to be devoid of any human remains what-so-ever).

Can you prove that there is so much as a single pound of crushed bone in the remaining 5 "huge mass graves" that allegedly contain the crushed bones of 870,000 people? How about a single tooth out of the alleged 27 million?

And 7 "huge mass graves" at Sobibor?

Can you prove that there is so much as a single pound of crushed bone in those alleged "huge mass graves?" BTW, we're still waiting for you to show us EXACTLY where all 7 of these alleged "huge mass graves" are, aren't we dull one?

When you can show us where they are, we can get back to discussing what they allegedly contain.

What are you waiting for dull one?

Which begs the question - In the photo that you uploaded - did it show the location of 3 or 5 "huge mass graves?"
 
Old September 6th, 2008 #1132
Greg Gerdes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,129
Greg Gerdes
Default

Retardo:

"I cannot yet show you a photo of all 7 mass graves, but I can show you... an archaeologist’s map plotting the mass graves at the places where the photos show ground coloration patterns compatible with mass graves."

Let's see it then faggot. Or is this just another one of your countless lies?


Retardo:

"Would you accept this as proof that there are mass graves in the areas where the ground coloration patterns on the photo match the plotting on the archaeologist’s map, Mr. Gerdes?"

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In order for a hole in the ground to be considered a grave, what needs to be proven to exist in said hole in the ground?

Priceless.

Retardo:

"An archaeologist’s public statement is proof enough, as far as I’m concerned. If it’s not proof enough for you, please specify what exactly you would accept as proof and what rules or standards of evidence your demands are based on."

Then what are you waiting for dull one? Sumit your "proof" to "skeptic" magazine and sit back and wait for your hundred grand to magically appear in your mailbox.
 
Old September 6th, 2008 #1133
Greg Gerdes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,129
Greg Gerdes
Default

The challenge:

I have an idea. If any one of the holocaust controversies freaks can prove that Belzecs grave #10, the largest of all the alleged "huge mass graves" allegedly found at Belzec by Kola himself, contains the remains - of just 600 jews - (Yes, that hundred, not thousand), I will pledge $5,000.00 myself to The Sobibor Archaeology Project in said freaks name.

This is the "proof" that Roberto Muehlenkamp has presented (on the VNN forum) that Belzecs grave #10 contains at least 600 bodies and to lay claim to the $5,000.00 peldge challenge:

*

Belzec grave # 10 is described as follows in Prof. Andrzej Kola’s book BEŁŻEC The Nazi Camp for Jews in the Light of Archaeological Sources, quoted in Part 3 of my article Carlo Mattogno on Belzec Archaeological Research:
The grave pit No 10 (Fig 27)

One of the biggest graves, in bottom view of a rectangular shape with the size of about 24,00 x 18,00 m. Situated in the north-central part of ha XV, basing on 16 deep drills (No 482-490, 494, 496-499, 501, 520); in some neighbourhood, much more shallow drills (with the ground bottom of about 1,50 m) crematory remains were reported. The grave was very deep (the drills in particular places were stopped at the depth of 4,25 to 5,20 m, because of bodies in wax-fat transformation and underground waters presence). One drill (No 483) at the depth of 4,40 m revealed the appearance of several cm layer of white sand mixed with rich lime. Over body layers there were some levels of crematory remains mixed with charcoal in turn with layers of sandy soil (20 cm). The edge parts of the pit are filled shallow, to the depth of about 1,50 m, probably because of getting some soil to make next layers between the bodies. That fact caused widening of the grave which was filled with next body remains. The estimated volume of the grave amounts about 2100 m3.
.
The total estimated volume of the 33 mass graves at Belzec is 21,310 cubic meters – room enough, according to the considerations in Section 4.1 of my Mattogno-Belzec article, to bury the corpses of over 434,000 people, known through documentary evidence to have been transported to Belzec and through documentary and eyewitness evidence to have been murdered there, before the mass graves were emptied and the corpses were burned. If Prof. Kola's team managed to identify all mass graves of the Belzec extermination camp during the archaeological investigations conducted between 1997 and 1999, this means that the 434,508 people known to have been transported to Belzec minus a handful of survivors were buried in these 21,310 cubic meters of mass grave before the general exhumation and burning of the bodies started. A mass grave with a volume of 2,100 cubic meters would thus have contained almost one-tenth of the total of corpses, roughly 42,800 of them.

Between November 1942 and March 1943, the bodies were removed from the mass graves and burned at first one and then two fireplaces – see the testimony of former SS-man Heinrich Gley, quoted in Section 4.2 of my Mattogno-Belzec article. The ash, bone fragments and other partial remains left over by cremation were returned to the mass graves, where they were found by Prof. Kola's team decades later – insofar as they had not been projected to the surface and scattered by subsequent leveling of and robbery digging in the area. On page 20 of his Belzec book, Prof. Kola wrote the following:

The excavations proved many layers of body ashes mixed with sand in turn, which indicated that the pits were used in many stages, each time covered with a new sand layer. One can suppose that the ashes filled the pits completely, and only a very thin layer of surface soil was used as a cover. Therefore during the camp closing in 1943 year and levelling works taken up at that time, as well as robbery digs around the camp area directly after the war, the most part of body ashes was placed over the surface, and even now the presence of burnt bodies' traces is quite clear in the surface structures, particularly in the western and northern part of the camp. In those very parts the zone of graves was located.

Assuming that the cremation remains of two-thirds of the 434,500 people murdered at Belzec were brought to the surface and scattered during the dismantling of the camp and posterior robbery digging, the remains of about 144,800 people would still be inside the graves. Assuming that the backfilling of the graves with cremation remains by the SS was done evenly and every mass grave thus received an amount of such remains more or less corresponding to the amount of bodies that had once been buried in it, this would mean that grave # 10, with almost 10 % of the total burial volume, still contains the remains of about 14,270 human beings – more than twice the number required by Gerdes.

Another way of estimating the contents of grave # 10 is to consider the height of the layers of human remains found therein, according to the above-quoted description of this grave in Kola's book. While there’s no information about the thickness of the layer of corpses in wax-fat transformation inside this grave – on page 20 of his book, Kola wrote that in some graves "the layer of corpses reached the thickness of ca 2,00"), the description suggests that the grave contains several layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal", alternating at intervals of 20 cm with "layers of sandy soil".

A layer of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" 20 cm thick would, considering the area of the mass grave (24 x 18 = 432 square meters), have a volume of 432 x 0.20 = 86.40 cubic meters. In Section 4.5 of my Mattogno-Belzec article, I calculated that the cremation of 434,000 people would leave the following volume of human and wood ashes, according to data from cremation experiments conducted by Carlo Mattogno:

Therefore – and this, as pointed out, is a maximum calculation knowingly based on exaggerated assumptions regarding the weight of the corpses to be incinerated – the victims’ ash and the wood ash together would have taken up 1,519 + 3,574 = 5,093 or 1,519 + 7,148 = 8,667 cubic meters of volume, i.e. less than 24 % or less than 41 % of the grave volume of 21,310 cubic meters.

Human ashes would thus make up at least 17.53 % (1,519 ÷ 8,667) and at most 29.83 % (1,519 ÷ 5,093) of the mass of human plus wood ashes. Applied to 86.40 cubic meters of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal", this means that each such layer in Belzec grave # 10 contains at least 15.14 cubic meters, but possibly as much as 25.77cubic meters, of "crematory remains". 15.14 cubic meters of human ashes, according to Mattogno’s calculations used in Section 4.5 of my Mattogno-Belzec article, correspond to 7.57 tons of the same, which in turn correspond to a life or pre-cremation weight of 151,43 tons or 151,430 kilograms. Assuming – as I did in my aforementioned article – an average of 35 kg of pre-cremation weight per dead body, this would correspond to 151,430 ÷ 35 = 4,327 dead bodies. Assuming, as Mattogno did, an exaggerated average (considering that the Jews deported to Belzec were mostly women and children) of 45 kg of pre-cremation weight per dead body, we would have the remains of 3,365 people in each 20 cm layer of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" in Belzec grave # 10. Assuming a ridiculously unrealistic 60 kg per dead body, the amount of human ashes in such layer would still correspond to 2,524 dead bodies. If the proportion of human ashes was 29.93 %, the respective numbers would be 7,363 (35 kg), 5,726 (45 kg) and 4,295 (60 kg) bodies per layer.

How many such layers are inside grave # 10 we do not know, but even if the soil cover on top of the grave were two meters thick (which is unlikely, as Kola reports having found crematory remains in drills only 1.50 meters deep "in some neighbourhood") and bodies in wax-fat transformation or layers of "white sand mixed with rich lime" started at a depth of 4 meters (actually bodies in wax-fat transformation were encountered at 4.25 meters in some parts of the grave while sand and lime was found at 4.40 meters in others), the two meters in between would still contain 5 layers of 20 cm each containing "crematory remains mixed with charcoal", alternated with 5 equally thick layers of sand. This would mean that grave # 10 contains the remains of the following number of human beings, not counting the bodies in wax-fat transformation at the bottom of the grave:

a) Assuming 15.14 cubic meters of human ashes in each layer containing 86.40 cubic meters of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" and 5 such layers

• At average body weight of 35 kg: 5 x 4,327 = 21,633 bodies
• At average body weight of 45 kg: 5 x 3,365 = 16,826 bodies
• At average body weight of 60 kg: 5 x 2,524 = 12,619 bodies

b) Assuming 25.77 cubic meters of human ashes in each layer containing 86.40 cubic meters of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" and 5 such layers

• At average body weight of 35 kg: 5 x 7,363 = 36,813 bodies
• At average body weight of 45 kg: 5 x 5,726 = 28,632 bodies
• At average body weight of 60 kg: 5 x 4,295 = 21,474 bodies

The minimum number of dead bodies that these calculations turn out is 12,619, more than double the number Gerdes wants to see proven. That's assuming an average pre-cremation weight of 60 kg per body, which is ridiculously exaggerated considering that deportees to Belzec were mostly malnourished women and children from miserable Polish ghettos. And it only considers the layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" mentioned by Prof. Kola, not the bodies in wax-fat transformation at the bottom of grave # 10.

This means that, if Gerdes were reasonably prepared to accept reasonable, evidence-backed estimates like the above as proof that Belzec grave # 10 contains human remains corresponding to at least 6,000 dead bodies, he should now go about making good his pledge to donate $5,000.00 to "Kola's Sobibor report fund".

If, on the other hand, what Gerdes wants to see is a physical quantification of human remains contained in grave # 10 at Belzec and an expert's confirmation that the remains so quantified correspond to at least 6,000 human bodies, his requirements are at least very difficult to meet. For they would imply the following:

i) Excavating this mass grave (something that Prof. Kola did not do due to considerations of respect for the dead he had to comply with, see Part 1 of my Mattogno-Belzec article),
ii) Extracting the layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" contained therein,
iii) Separating the crematory remains from the charcoal,
iv) Establishing the weight and volume of the crematory remains thus separated and
v) Having an expert provide an assessment of the number of human bodies to which these crematory remains correspond.

First of all, it is unlikely that anyone will obtain permission to excavate any of the Belzec mass graves, already because the area has been turned into an elaborate memorial.

Second, even if excavations were to be authorized, despite the disturbances of the memorial area they would presumably imply, long and arduous archaeological work would be required to remove the aforementioned layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" from the mass grave.

Third, once the layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" had been extracted from the grave, how would one separate the charcoal from the crematory remains in a manner that allows for accurately quantifying the latter? I strongly doubt that this is possible. But maybe Gerdes can tell us how he would do it.

Fourth, assuming that the crematory remains can be separated from the charcoal in a manner allowing for reliably quantifying the crematory remains, could an expert in matters of cremation accurately establish to how many human beings these remains belonged? One doesn’t have to be a cremation expert to realize that this is impossible, considering the variables involved, and that the most an expert can provide is an estimate based on assumptions that, however reasonable and realisitic they may be, cannot be empirically confirmed.

So if Gerdes were only to accept as proof an exact physical quantification in the sense described above, he would be asking for something that is very hard if not impossible to accomplish.

So which of them is it, Mr. Gerdes?

Will you accepta reasonable, evidence-backed estimate, like those presented above, as proof that Belzec grave # 10 contains the remains of at least 6,000 dead people?

If so, better go get your money.

Or will you require a precise physical quantification that, for the reasons described above, is very difficult if not impossible to accomplish?

*

OMFG, how does one describe such insanity? It even admits that - "How many such layers are inside grave # 10 we do not know."

and what it's presented as "proof" isn't proof, but rather "an estimate."

and:

"If, on the other hand, what Gerdes wants to see is a physical quantification of human remains contained in grave # 10 at Belzec and an expert's confirmation that the remains so quantified correspond to at least 6,000 human bodies, his requirements are at least very difficult to meet."

Proving that the dullest of the dull not only didn't meet the requirements, but it knew that the requirement of "proof" wasn't met.

Yet it still presented such drivel as proof!

Pure, unadulterated insanity. Wow!


I have three follow up questions for the dull one:

1 - How much human remains did Kola actually find in Belzecs grave #10?

2 - Out of the alleged 1,920,000 teeth allegedly in said "huge mass grave," how many teeth did he find?

3 - Just what part of the word proof do you not understand?


Priceless.

* Of course, this begs the question: If the above is "proof" that Belzecs grave #10 contains the remains of 1% of the alleged mass murder at Belzec, then why didn't the dull one submit it to "skeptic" magazine and lay claim to THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC CHALLENGE when it had the chance?

I tell you what dull one, since you want so badly to have your drivel published in Archaeology Magazine, I will let them be the final arbitrator of whether or not what you just presented as "proof" is actually proof. If Archaeology Magazine will publish it, I will consider it proof. The only caveat is - it has to be in the EXACT form as is shown above.

And just to clarify, we are still only talking about 600 (hundred), i.e. - 1/10th of 1% of the total alleged mass murder.

What are you waiting for dull one?
 
Old September 6th, 2008 #1134
Greg Gerdes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,129
Greg Gerdes
Default

Let's recap retardos latest insane drivel:

She has yet to prove that Belzecs grave #10, said to contain the remains of 60,000 jews, contains so much as 600.

She has yet to prove that there exists at Treblinka one single "huge mass grave," or one pound of crushed bone (out of an alleged 6.351 million pounds), or even so much as one single tooth. (Out of an alleged 27 million!)

She has yet to prove the location of the alleged 7 "huge mass graves" allegedly located at Sobibor (7 years ago!) or prove that there exists there a single pound of crushed bone (Out of an alleged 1.825 million pounds!) or so much as a single tooth. (Out of an alleged 8 million!) Further, she has yet to prove that a single soil core sample allegedly taken at Sobibor contains an iota of human remains. Or that any GPR has ever been done at Sobibor. (Please explain why dull one!)

*Please note: The amount of crushed bones I cite is the amount of crushed bones only - not the weight of the ash that the liar is always trying to obfuscate the issue with.

Again - Not one mass grave that contains so much as one percent at Belzec. Not one mass grave period at Treblinka. Not one pound of crushed bone at Sobibor.

And she continues to lie about the 7 alleged mass graves of Sobibor.

The only thing ever proven to exist at Sobibor is some green areas of grass that could have resulted from one bag of Scotts turf builder.

Ya just gotta laugh.
 
Old September 6th, 2008 #1135
Greg Gerdes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,129
Greg Gerdes
Default

Retardo:

"Not that I have a problem with what you’re demanding, but please tell me, Mr. Gerdes: Why would I have to show everything you yell for? Just because you yell for it? Give me a better reason."

Because you're proving to the world what a cowardly liar you are. But then again, that's OK by me.

Just keep showing to world what a liar, coward, hypocrite and fraud you are faggot.

That's why you're so priceless - you do all my work for me!


Oh, just one more question for the dull one today:

Out of the alleged 19.200 million teeth at Belzec that would be there IF the asinine official story is true, how many did kola find during his alleged "investigation?"
 
Old September 7th, 2008 #1136
Greg Gerdes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,129
Greg Gerdes
Default

THIS IS HUGE!!!

Ok folks, this is it - WE'VE GOT AN ANSWER!!!

My last email to Yoram Haimi:


Quote:
Friday, September 5, 2008 10:55 AM

Hello again Yoram,

I'm still waiting for you to explain exactly what the "ahs mountain" of Sobibor contains. How hard should it be for Sobibors so-called resident archeologist to simply explain the contents of said "huge mound of human remains?"

I'm also still waiting for you to show the other two alleged "huge mass graves" located by Kola. Or are you saying that the photo that you sent me shows all the alleged "mass graves / human remains" allegedly found at Sobibor?

Let me phrase that into a very simple yes or no question:

* Does the photo that you sent me show all the alleged "huge mass graves" allegedly found at Sobibor?

Yes or No?


Answer the simple questions Yoram.

And here is Yorams response:


Quote:
Sunday, September 7, 2008 1:21 AM

Hello Greg,

The answer is yes.

Other than that, my apologies but I am really too busy to maintain correspondence with you at this time. If you have any questions in the future I will try to answer them but please try to concentrate your questions as concise way as possible and please do not be offended if you I am unable to get back you as soon as you expect.

yours, Yoram

Please notice that the greasy jew has simply refused to - "explain exactly what the "ahs mountain" of Sobibor contains."

That's because it contains NOTHING but partial skelital remians of a NON jEW in a glass display case in the wall of the monument.
 
Old September 7th, 2008 #1137
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo:

"Of course we don’t even need the above site investigation report to consider it proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that hundreds of thousands of people were murdered at Treblinka, that their bodies were burned and that the bones left over from the burning were ground. All it takes to prove that is the documentary evidence showing the minimum number of people who disappeared from the face of the earth at Treblinka and the many eyewitnesses testimonies, including such from participants in the killing, that describe the killing and body disposal procedure."

Then submitt your evidence to "skeptic' magazine coward.
Wow.

I’ll take this as meaning that Gerdes has finally decided to submit to reasonable standards of evidence, such as applied in criminal investigation and historical research, for the purpose of meeting his NAFCASH challenge requirements.

Do you confirm this, Mr. Gerdes?

If you confirm this, I shall start preparing my submission to SKEPTIC magazine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
How about just one pound of crushed bone out of millions and just one tooth out ouf tens of millions?

Let's see just one Retardo.

ONE.
Gerdes, the "just one"-trick-pony, is again requested to answer the following questions:

1. Can you show us one single bone, tooth or other body part from a victim of the Soviet GuLag or of mass shootings during Stalin’s purges in 1937/38?

2. If not, does this mean there’s a reason to doubt that – as becomes apparent from documentary evidence – about 700,000 people were bumped off by the NKVD in 1937/38 and about 1.6 million or so perished in the GuLag camps during Stalin’s rule?

3. Are you beginning to understand the utter imbecility of your "just one" yelling, yes or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo:

"The same applies to Sobibor. There we have information, from Prof. Kola’s archaeological investigation in 2001, that gives an idea of the amount of human remains, be it crushed bones, ashes of human tissue or human remains only partially burned or not burned at all. This statement by Prof. Kol, contains data that allow for establishing the size of the graves:

Quote:
"We uncovered seven mass graves with an average depth of 15ft. In them there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay. That means that in the final stage the victims were burned," said Andrzej Kola, an archaeologist. He said the largest grave measured 210ft by 75ft, the others 60ft by 75ft.

What human remians Retardo? What crushed bone? What human ashes? And what about real teeth? And what mass graves?

Can you show us ONE:

pound of crushed bones?

real human tooth?

burned body?

I didn't think so.
Gerdes, the "just one"-trick-pony, is again requested to answer the following questions:

1. Can you show us one single bone, tooth or other body part from a victim of the Soviet GuLag or of mass shootings during Stalin’s purges in 1937/38?

2. If not, does this mean there’s a reason to doubt that – as becomes apparent from documentary evidence – about 700,000 people were bumped off by the NKVD in 1937/38 and about 1.6 million or so perished in the GuLag camps during Stalin’s rule?

3. Are you beginning to understand the utter imbecility of your "just one" yelling, yes or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Oh, and we're still waiting for you to show us where the 7 alleged "huge mass graves" are. - All 7. We have 3 or 5. We're waiting for a visual with a description of all 7 graves. What are you waiting for liar?

Retardo:

"The size of the graves, in turn, leads to the conclusion that, if human remains could be detected by core drilling and some excavation in graves of this size, there must be rather large amounts of human remains inside these graves."

What graves Retardo? Let's see all 7.
I’m waiting for an explanation why I should give a flying fuck about complying with every one of the demands that hysterical coward Gerdes hides behind in order to avoid addressing the evidence he is shown, the questions he is asked and the arguments he is confronted with.

Anyway, the seven mass graves are the white areas numbered "81" on this plan:



These areas look so much like the mass grave areas pointed out on the map from Prof. Kola’s 2001 investigation (which I received from Yoram Haimi in a .tif – file attached to an e-mail on September 2, 2008 6:52:18 PM, and which also numbers the mass graves, of which two are in the big area "below" the monument that resembles an inverted "L"), that I presume Prof. Kola’s findings were taken into consideration when drawing this map.

As to Prof. Kola’s map itself, you’ll have to wait a little longer. In an e-mail sent today (September 7, 2008 8:34:50 AM) Yoram Haimi told me the following (after I asked him whether it was OK to publish this map):

Quote:
With regard to Kola's plan, it would probably be wise to ask his permission prior to showing this on the internet since it is not currently public domain.
We don’t want to make Prof. Kola angrier than he is already by publishing this map without his permission, do we, Mr. Gerdes? After all we both want him to publish a detailed report about his findings at Sobibor in 2001.

I have e-mailed the University of Torún requesting Prof. Kola’s contact to talk with him about archaeology matters, by the way. I suggest you do the same, if you haven’t done it yet.

Now, the lush-green areas on this air photo:



have about the same shape and position toward the circular monument as the "81" areas in the part of the camp plan:



that can be seen on the air photo.

Don’t they, Mr. Gerdes?

I’m also waiting for you to answer the question in my post # 1125 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...postcount=1125

Quote:
What I wrote in post # 1097 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...postcount=1097 was the following:

Quote:
The grass is greener over the graves, a phenomenon that is easily explained by the fertilizing effects of the human remains inside the graves. These remains apparently act as a sort of dung, and therefore grass and weeds grow more thickly over the mass graves than in the surrounding area. This phenomenon has also been observed at Chelmno, according to Dr. Nowak’s article quoted in my post # 1040 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...postcount=1040 (emphasis added):

Quote:
The fifth grave
The last grave, or rather a line of pits filled with ashes, was not commemorated with any walls; in the 1960s it was already not discernible on the surface. On the basis of the description by Judge W. Bednarz it appears that in 1945 the pits were examined by him.
The total length of these pits equals 161 m. The stretch is made up of 11 pits, each located about 2-3 m from another. The dimensions of the pits vary from 9x7.5 m to 15.50x8.50 m. They are filled with gray soil with a significant mixture of burn waste and crushed human bones. In the southern (SE) part of the grave the bones found in the pits used to be ground; those in further parts - crushed. According to W. Bednarz, the depth of the pits was about 4 m, and the width 8-10 m. Even now the flora on the pits is more luxuriant, making this stretch more visible on the surface.
Any alternative explanation you wish to propose, Mr. Gerdes?

Please answer the question.

Or are you going to run away from it like you’re been running away from my questions about the core samples, among many others?
… instead of running away from it, as you has from so many other questions before, and hiding behind either new demands or your beaten old "just one" – trick pony act.
 
Old September 7th, 2008 #1138
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
What human remains Retardo? Let's see proof of human remains found at Sobibor (just wait folks, we get to see the partial skeleton in the glass case again! LOL!!! Have I ever told you that you're priceless Retardo?)

What excavations Retardo? Show us one single "huge mass grave" that has been excavated.

What "rather large amounts of human remains inside these graves" Retado? If that is so, then it should be real easy for you to show us just a small amount. What are you waiting for dull one?
Gerdes, the "just one"-trick-pony, is again requested to answer the following questions:

1. Can you show us one single bone, tooth or other body part from a victim of the Soviet GuLag or of mass shootings during Stalin’s purges in 1937/38?

2. If not, does this mean there’s a reason to doubt that – as becomes apparent from documentary evidence – about 700,000 people were bumped off by the NKVD in 1937/38 and about 1.6 million or so perished in the GuLag camps during Stalin’s rule?

3. Are you beginning to understand the utter imbecility of your "just one" yelling, yes or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo:

"So your claim that I can’t prove "one single pound" of any type of human remains is utter bullshit."

Really? Then let's see it. (And please notice how she's trying to obfuscate with the "any type" nonsense.

Show us one pound of crushed bone dull one.

Not bones, not "ashes" (yet you've yet to prove that there is a single pound of that either), but crushed bone.

ONE SINGLE POUND - out of the alleged 1.825 million.
Gerdes, the "just one"-trick-pony, is again requested to answer the following questions:

1. Can you show us one single bone, tooth or other body part from a victim of the Soviet GuLag or of mass shootings during Stalin’s purges in 1937/38?

2. If not, does this mean there’s a reason to doubt that – as becomes apparent from documentary evidence – about 700,000 people were bumped off by the NKVD in 1937/38 and about 1.6 million or so perished in the GuLag camps during Stalin’s rule?

3. Are you beginning to understand the utter imbecility of your "just one" yelling, yes or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo:

"I can prove any amount of any type of human remains."

Really? Let's see it.

Lets see all evidence of all types of human remains.

Break it down for us and show us every bit of evidence that you have.

Let's see all 7 graves allegedly found.

Lets see all teeth allegedly found. (real ones stupid)

Lets see all the crushed bone.

Lets see all the human ashes.
The amounts of all human remains of all types you mention that correspond to at least 150,000 murdered people are proven by the documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence that proves the murder and burning of at least 150,000 people at Sobibor, including but not limited to the Sobibor exhibits mentioned in my post # 777 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...&postcount=777 .

That’s simple logic, Mr. Gerdes. Proof of human remains resulting from a mass murder, in the amounts corresponding to the scale of that mass murder, logically follows from any evidence that conclusively proves the fact and scale of that mass murder. And that is so independently of what part of those human remains are documented in investigation reports or shown on photographs. If you’re still not able to understand this, I’ll have to ask you a few more questions, which someone who has emphatically recommended Solshenizyn’s Gulag Archipelago should honestly answer.

Here are three of Stalin’s killing sites, mentioned under http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/battles.htm#Bykivnia :

Quote:
Bykivnia, near Kiev, USSR (Stalinist burial site, 1930s): 200 000

* Raymond Pearson, The Rise and Fall of the Soviet Empire, 2nd ed. (2002): "near-incredible" 200,000
* Michael Hamm, Kiev: "Perhaps 120,000 victims were buried there; another estimate puts the figure as high as 225,000."
* Taras Kuzio, Ukraine: Perestroika to Independence (2000): "a mass grave reputed to contain over 200 000 bodies."
Questions are the following:

1. Do you accept it as a fact that Stalin’s thugs murdered between 120,000 and 225,000 in the 1930’s at Bykivnia near Kiev?

2. If so, what evidence can you show us that between 120,000 and 225,000 people lie in the Bykivnia mass graves?

3. How many skulls and bones can you show that have been found and documented in writing by criminal investigators or archaeologists? How may teeth (out of roughly between 3,840,000 and 7,200,000, which were not subjected to cremation and should therefore have remained more or less intact to this day)?

4. How many skulls and bones can you show us that have been found and photographically documented by criminal investigators or archaeologists? How may teeth (out of roughly between 3,840,000 and 7,200,000, which were not subjected to cremation and should therefore have remained more or less intact to this day)?

Answer these questions, Mr. Gerdes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And don't forget to show us the proof that what your claiming to be human has actually been proven to be human.
I’d say it’s for you to show us proof that objects stated to be human remains and looking like such on photographs, or stated to be human remains by criminal investigators or archaeologists, and found at a place where all known evidence shows mass murder to have occurred, are not what their aspect, their description and all surrounding evidence show them to be, i.e. human remains. Another of your lame attempts to shift the burden of proof has been duly noted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And let's see prove that ONE partial skeleton that can be found at Sobibor is from a greasy jew. (Which you know for a fact it isn't)
As all known evidence shows the victims of Sobibor were almost entirely Jewish, it is rather unlikely, to say the least, that the partial skeleton in this glass display photo:



is not of one of the Jews murdered at Sobibor.

But please tell me, Mr. Gerdes, how am I supposed to "know" that this partial skeleton is not that of one of the at least about 150,000 Jews murdered at Sobibor?

Is that supposed to become apparent from the aspect of the skeleton?

If so, Mr. Gerdes, please teach us some crackpot anthropology. Please explain how one is supposed to tell that the skeleton on this photo is not that of a Jew. Let Gerdian imbecility reach new depths.
 
Old September 7th, 2008 #1139
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo:

"What you may claim is that I cannot visually, photographically show you a given amount of a given type of human remains from a given camp. And my answer to that irrelevant claim is a simple question:

So what?"

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Priceless.
I knew poor Gerdes wouldn’t be able to answer my question and explain the relevance of his "just one" yelling.

You’re entirely predictable, my friend. It comes with your being a dumb-as-manure one-trick-pony, you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
]Retardo:

"Actually all known evidence suggests that the ashes and bones in the glass display at the foot of the Sobibor monument are what they are stated to be, ashes and bones of Jews murdered at Sobibor."

Liar - Prove it..

Retardo:

You don’t prove logic, you understand (or, as in your case, are unable to understand it).

1. All known eyewitness, documentary and physical evidence (including but not limited to the evidence listed in my post # 777 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...&postcount=777 ) shows that at least about 150,000 Jews were murdered at Sobibor, and that their bodies were cremated resulting in ashes, bone fragments and also bones and other remains that were left over by the cremation procedure.

2. There is a photo of a glass display at Sobibor stated to contain human ashes and bones, and the aspect of this glass display's contents on the photo suggests that they are actually human ashes and bones.

3. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that what you see on the photo of the glass display are the ashes and bones of some of the people murdered at Sobibor.

This is a logical conclusion derived from the aspect of the glass display’s contents on the photo and all known evidence to what happened at Sobibor. It is valid until you provide evidence that what you see on the glass display photo are not actually human ashes and bones, or at least evidence that points to this possibility. Bar such evidence (which is for you to provide), the conclusion stands."

Those remains are not those of a greasy jew, as Yoram and his greasy ilk know very well.
Why, is that your only "argument" against my logical conclusion, Mr. Gerdes?

Not that would have expected anything better, of course.

Again, how is one supposed to tell that this partial skeleton is not that of one of the at least about 150,000 Jews murdered at Treblinka?

Is that supposed to become apparent from the aspect of the skeleton?

If so, Mr. Gerdes, please teach us some crackpot anthropology. Please explain how one is supposed to tell that the skeleton on this photo is not that of a Jew. Let Gerdian imbecility reach new depths.

The skull that Gerdes thinks looks Aryan, once again:

 
Old September 7th, 2008 #1140
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo:

"No, Gerdes. You prove that those are not what their aspect and all known evidence about mass murder at Sobibor suggest them to be." The ball is in your court."

Which proves that not one iota from any core sample taken at Sobibor has been proven to be human.
A rather nonsensical statement, which incidentally gets us back to my questions about those three core samples:







First sample: light-brown soil above, light-grey ash of human tissue and bone below.

Second sample: light-brown soil above, light-grey ash of human tissue and bone below, with some black wood ash in between

Third sample: light-brown soil and a white substance that is either bone ash or lime.

Alternative suggestions, Mr. Gerdes? Let’s hear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The ball is back in your court dull one.
Not until you have provided evidence suggesting that the substances visible on this photo:



are something other than human ashes and bone fragments, some larger bones and a human skull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo:

As to Sobibor, the contents of the glass display visible on the photo alone (ashes that can be assumed to have resulted either directly from cremation or from bone-crushing following cremation) mean you’re full of shit. Unless, of course, you can provide evidence proving that what you see on the glass display photo are not human remains.

Which means, the only remians that can be found at Sobibor that are human - i.e. - the bones in the glass display case, were not cremated or crushed and are known for a fact by the jews to not be from a greasy jew and the alleged "ashes" have never been proven to be human "ashes."

Thank you dull one.
Gratitude is all on my side, as you have again demonstrated you nonsensical non-sequitur conclusions are the best you can come up with by way of argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Retardo:

"The archaeologist didn’t mention quantities, but it stands to reason that mass graves of the dimensions he described must have contained a lot more than just a few pounds of the remains he mentioned.

Proving that not so much as a single pound of crushed bone has ever been located at Sobibor.
No, but Gerdes’ conclusion is further evidence that he has no arguments and very little brain matter, and that wishful thinking is the only thinking he is capable of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Oh, and we're still wainting for the map that shows the location of ALL 7 alleged "huge mass graves."

What are you waiting for dull one?
I’m waiting for an explanation why I should give a flying fuck about complying with every one of the demands that hysterical coward Gerdes hides behind in order to avoid addressing the evidence he is shown, the questions he is asked and the arguments he is confronted with.

Anyway, the seven mass graves are the white areas numbered "81" on this plan:



These areas look so much like the mass grave areas pointed out on the map from Prof. Kola’s 2001 investigation (which I received from Yoram Haimi in a .tif – file attached to an e-mail on September 2, 2008 6:52:18 PM, and which also numbers the mass graves, of which two are in the big area "below" the monument that resembles an inverted "L"), that I presume Prof. Kola’s findings were taken into consideration when drawing this map.

As to Prof. Kola’s map itself, you’ll have to wait a little longer. In an e-mail sent today (September 7, 2008 8:34:50 AM) Yoram Haimi told me the following (after I asked him whether it was OK to publish this map):

Quote:
With regard to Kola's plan, it would probably be wise to ask his permission prior to showing this on the internet since it is not currently public domain.
We don’t want to make Prof. Kola angrier than he is already by publishing this map without his permission, do we, Mr. Gerdes? After all we both want him to publish a detailed report about his findings at Sobibor in 2001.

I have e-mailed the University of Torún requesting Prof. Kola’s contact to talk with him about archaeology matters, by the way. I suggest you do the same, if you haven’t done it yet.

Now, the lush-green areas on this air photo:



have about the same shape and position toward the circular monument as the "81" areas in the part of the camp plan:



that can be seen on the air photo.

Don’t they, Mr. Gerdes?

I’m also waiting for you to answer the question in my post # 1125 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...postcount=1125

Quote:
What I wrote in post # 1097 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...postcount=1097 was the following:

Quote:
The grass is greener over the graves, a phenomenon that is easily explained by the fertilizing effects of the human remains inside the graves. These remains apparently act as a sort of dung, and therefore grass and weeds grow more thickly over the mass graves than in the surrounding area. This phenomenon has also been observed at Chelmno, according to Dr. Nowak’s article quoted in my post # 1040 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p...postcount=1040 (emphasis added):

Quote:
The fifth grave
The last grave, or rather a line of pits filled with ashes, was not commemorated with any walls; in the 1960s it was already not discernible on the surface. On the basis of the description by Judge W. Bednarz it appears that in 1945 the pits were examined by him.
The total length of these pits equals 161 m. The stretch is made up of 11 pits, each located about 2-3 m from another. The dimensions of the pits vary from 9x7.5 m to 15.50x8.50 m. They are filled with gray soil with a significant mixture of burn waste and crushed human bones. In the southern (SE) part of the grave the bones found in the pits used to be ground; those in further parts - crushed. According to W. Bednarz, the depth of the pits was about 4 m, and the width 8-10 m. Even now the flora on the pits is more luxuriant, making this stretch more visible on the surface.
Any alternative explanation you wish to propose, Mr. Gerdes?

Please answer the question.

Or are you going to run away from it like you’re been running away from my questions about the core samples, among many others?
 
Reply

Share


Thread
Display Modes


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:38 AM.
Page generated in 0.35570 seconds.