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Old July 11th, 2012 #61
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Originally Posted by Karl Radl View Post
... and the deportation of 500,000 Jews to the Nazi death camps.
You believe in that?
 
Old July 11th, 2012 #62
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At the same time, he supported ôrevolutionaryö Jewish groups in Russia. Encyclopaedia Judaica called these ôJewish self-defence groupsö. The Provisional Government was later given all possible financial aid from his banking house Kuhn, Loeb & Co and other banks.
I would like to know a solid source for this claim. I've heard it many times but apparently when Father Coughlin was called on it in 1938 he had no source to show.
 
Old July 11th, 2012 #63
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Don't know what to tell you , hadding ; try Czarism and the Revolution" by Arsene de Goulevitch re: Schiff bankrolling
 
Old July 11th, 2012 #64
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Don't know what to tell you , hadding ; try Czarism and the Revolution" by Arsene de Goulevitch re: Schiff bankrolling
Hm, Arsene de Goulevitch. I am reading that his source was Boris Brasol, who translated the Protocols into English.

Brasol's argument in The World at the Crossroads seems to be entirely circumstantial. Basically, because Kuhn, Loeb &co. had financed Japan in the Russo-Japanese War (which is well known) and because Schiff was generally hostile to Russia, it seemed likely that he had financed the Bolsheviks as well. That's an hypothesis, not a proof.

From a business perspective, lending money to the Empire of Japan, which will continue to exist even if it loses the war, is entirely different from shipping gold to some revolutionaries that may not prevail. It's a leap to infer one from the other.

You can't really infer support for Bolshevism from support for the Kerensky government either.

I see Kuhn, Loeb & co. mentioned as financing the first five-year plan, but that only started in 1929, when the Communists had become firmly established as the government of Russia. Again, this is not comparable to financing a revolution.

Last edited by Hadding; July 11th, 2012 at 07:50 PM.
 
Old September 28th, 2012 #65
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Grigori Naumovich Voitinsky aka Zarkhin (Russian: Григорий Наумович Войтинский; 1893-1956) was a Comintern official during its creation, and was sent to China in 1920 as an advisor to contact the prominent Chinese radicals such as Chen Duxiu, just before the formation of the Communist Party of China.
The actual process of forming the infant Party can be mostly attributed to his influence, although his successor advisors had more influence about the official Party line itself, such as allying with the Guomindang


In 1920, the Soviet Union established the Far Eastern Bureau in Siberia, a branch of the Third Communist International, or the Comintern. It was responsible for managing the establishment of a Communist party in China and other countries. Soon after its establishment, the bureau's deputy manager Voitinsky arrived in Beijing and contacted the Communist vanguard Li Dazhao. Li arranged for Voitinsky to meet with another Communist leader, Chen Duxiu, in Shanghai. In August 1920, Voitinsky, Chen Duxiu, Li Hanjun, Shen Xuanlu, Yu Xiusong, Shi Cuntong, and others began to established the Comintern China Branch.

The Shanghai Chronicle was set up in 1919 in Shanghai by Shemeshko and other Russians with socialist leanings, and received financial aid from the Soviet-Russian government in early 1920. In the spring of 1920, Voitinsky and his colleagues came to China on a mission to establish the Communist Party in China.

They not only came to China in the guise of editors and reporters for the newspaper, but also set up the Comintern's East Asia Secretariat in the newspaper office.

From then on, the Shanghai Chronicle became both a propaganda vehicle for the East Asia Secretariat and a cover for Bolshevik activity in China. Because the newspaper staff assisted Soviet Russian and Comintern personnel stationed under cover at the newspaper in activities to establish a communist organization in China, the newspaper as a whole played a special role in the early communist movement in China. Although the Shanghai Chronicle stopped publication at the end of 1922 because Russian aid came to an end, many staff members continued to work for Bolshevism.

Grigori_Voitinsky Grigori_Voitinsky
 
Old September 8th, 2013 #66
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Old October 2nd, 2013 #67
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Originally Posted by Hadding View Post
You believe in that?
Pardon the intrusion, but...

Come on, Hadding; let's get real here. I'm absolutely certain that Karl does not believe for one fucking second that jews, in any number at all, were deported to "death camps." Could it be that he merely forgot to put the term in parentheses? I don't know.

Well, Karl?
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Old October 2nd, 2013 #68
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Originally Posted by Matthaus Hetzenauer View Post
Pardon the intrusion, but...

Come on, Hadding; let's get real here. I'm absolutely certain that Karl does not believe for one fucking second that jews, in any number at all, were deported to "death camps."
I have the paedo-apologist/general fuckwit on ignore for my own general sanity and because I am not interested in reading its attempts at being intelligent.

As to 'death camps' in relation to the NS: no I don't as anyone would know if they read pretty much anything I have written over the years. I haven't believed in the 'holocaust' since at least 2005.

Quote:
Could it be that he merely forgot to put the term in parentheses? I don't know.

Well, Karl?
*shrugs*

I have no idea what I context I quoted or said 'death camps' off the top of my head so not a clue old chap.

Having said that: I did a quick search and if it is what I saw then perhaps paedo missed the fact that it was a quote from a journal article. I am also not a pedant so I don't bother correcting every little thing in a quote from another person's work (per normal academic practice).

If so then he is even moronic and desperate than I had previously believed.
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Old October 2nd, 2013 #69
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Originally Posted by Karl Radl View Post
I have the paedo-apologist/general fuckwit on ignore for my own general sanity and because I am not interested in reading its attempts at being intelligent.

As to 'death camps' in relation to the NS: no I don't as anyone would know if they read pretty much anything I have written over the years. I haven't believed in the 'holocaust' since at least 2005.



*shrugs*

I have no idea what I context I quoted or said 'death camps' off the top of my head so not a clue old chap.

Having said that: I did a quick search and if it is what I saw then perhaps paedo missed the fact that it was a quote from a journal article. I am also not a pedant so I don't bother correcting every little thing in a quote from another person's work (per normal academic practice).

If so then he is even moronic and desperate than I had previously believed.
Well this is not a very nice way to talk. What a cranky little bastard.
 
Old October 2nd, 2013 #70
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Originally Posted by Hadding View Post
I would like to know a solid source for this claim. I've heard it many times but apparently when Father Coughlin was called on it in 1938 he had no source to show.
The gold story is a myth. No gold was ever given to Trotsky to take back to Russia. If gold had been given then the British would have found it when they took him into custody once his ship had docked in Canada.

The bankers' money was channelled through the American Red Cross Mission to Russia. The Utopianist 'Colonel' Raymond Robins was their lead agent and he dealt directly with Lenin, Trotsky et al.

Raymond Robins (second from left I think) standing near the US flag flown by the American Red Cross mission in Russia


The bank used was the National City Bank where an account for assisting the Bolsheviks by issuing credits was opened by the gentile Morgan who also took a major interest in Russia.

Jacob Schiff was for 16 years a director of National City Bank but suddenly resigned from the board in July 1914, citing 'limitations' imposed on him by the recently introduced Federal Reserve Bank legislation.

Before the war, Schiff had organised an issue of $25,000,000 of Austrian Treasury Notes via Kuhn, Loeb and Co, and the aforementioned National City Bank. Of these Notes, $12,500,000 were due to mature and pay out on the 1st July, 1914 - the same day that Schiff rushed off his letter of resignation - the remaining Notes fell due in January 1915.

For Schiff there was serious concern that Austria would not meet it's commitments and so Max Warburg went from Hamburg to Vienna to oversee arrangements. Later Schiff wrote to Warburg:
I must say frankly that we here feel fortunate, not only because we had large holdings ourselves, but even more because the Notes had been placed through us.
Below is Schiff's letter of resignation. I've bolded the part where Schiff mentions how, due to recent change in law, the bank would soon have opportunities to ''branch out into foreign countries''.
July 1 , 1914.

Dear Mr. Vanderlip:

Owing to what appear to be limitations in the Federal Reserve Bank legislation, it is necessary that I resign as a director of the National City Bank. It hardly needs any special assurance on my part that I do so with a feeling of keen regret at being compelled to sever associations which at all times have been a source of much satisfaction and pleasure to me.

Sixteen years ago, when I became a member of the board of the National City Bank, the latter was not so important a concern as it is today, and it is my concern that the great and honourable position that the National City Bank has acquired in the financial and commercial life of the United States is, to no small degree, owing to the prudent and efficient management which the bank has enjoyed under Mr. James Stillman's, and in later years, under your own guidance. Particularly do I regret that it has become necessary that I leave the board just at a time when, under recent legislation, an opportunity is now given to the bank - of which I am glad to note it is promptly availing itself - to branch out into foreign countries, and thus become a further and still more important factor for the promotion of financial and commercial interests of this nation.

May I ask you to present my resignation to the board at the next meeting, and wishing you personally, as well as your associates in the management of the bank, every further success.

Yours most faithfully,

Jacob H. Schiff.
This move allowed Schiff to withdraw into the background but he remained a major shareholder in the National City Bank and enjoyed continuing influence in its operations as a leader of the inter-banking group which was fronted by J.P. (Jack) Morgan, who himself, was the largest shareholder in the National City Bank.

Schiff had for years been the treasurer of the American Red Cross and was the greatest donor to that organisation. This is an important fact that Antony Sutton completely ignores in his book on Wall St and the Bolsheviks; wherein he dismisses Schiff's involvement in both the later revolution and its aftermath. Schiff had certainly involved himself in attempting to destroy the Tsar and he often met in private with Russian revolutionaries at the Henry Street Settlement, which he had purchased for Lillian Wald who on these occasions would cook dinner and act as their host.

Charles_Richard_Crane Charles_Richard_Crane
who knew Schiff and was a close friend of Lillian Wald mentioned in two letters (dated 5 Feb, 1921 and 14 Dec, 1934) that Schiff met Trotsky at Wald's Settlement the night before he left New York in March 1917, and that Schiff gave him $50,000. Crane also happened to take the same ship from New York as Trotsky and was witness to Trotsky's arrest when the ship reached Canada.

Crane referred to money from Schiff to help fund the return of Trotsky and his followers but not a huge injection of gold as some people claim.

He wrote:
[Lillian Wald] played a very important role in bringing about the Russian Revolution.Trotsky was always in touch with her and followed her orders. She always could get any amount of money from the Schiff-Warburg family, and the night before Trotsky sailed for Russia, he and Jacob Schiff had a secret meeting at Miss Wald's, and Schiff turned over fifty thousand dollars to Trotsky to use shepherding his flock to Russia
It's often overlooked that Trotsky had been regarded as a Menshevik (at least for a time) but not a Bolshevik, and if Kerensky, who demanded his release and return to Russia, thought that he was still of that persuasion, then (assuming they did meet) why would Schiff have been any the wiser as to Trotsky's plans for a partnership in the business of Lenin & Co?


Sources: Jacob H. Schiff: His Life and Letters 1928, volumes 1 and 2.
.............Charles R. Crane's Crusade for the Arabs, 1919-39, F. W. Brecher, Middle Eastern Studies, Vol. 24, No. 1 (Jan., 1988), pp. 42-55

Last edited by Henry.; October 2nd, 2013 at 10:29 PM.
 
Old October 2nd, 2013 #71
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The bankers' money was channelled through the American Red Cross Mission to Russia. The Utopianist 'Colonel' Raymond Robins was their lead agent and he dealt directly with Lenin, Trotsky et al.
That's interesting about Schiff and the Red Cross, and about J.P. Morgan and the bank account, but what are the dates? The dates in this are very important. Bankers making a devil's pact with an established government is very different from the same bankers financing a coup that hasn't yet occurred.

I just browsed at the chapter about the Red Cross in Sutton's book and most of the dates relating to the Red Cross's mission to Russia are from spring and summer 1917, before the Bolsheviks came to power. What's the evidence that the Red Cross was helping the Bolsheviks from the start rather than alleviating troubles under the Kerensky government?

My semi-informed opinion is that Jews in general wanted the liberal government to succeed, but after General Kornilov's attempt to seize power in August 1917 maybe the big Jews realized that the liberal government's days were numbered and gave the nod to the Bolsheviks. The Bolshevik takeover was a total departure from the Marxist script. But in any case it was logical under the circumstances that some kind of dictatorship promising redistribution of wealth came to power .

Last edited by Hadding; October 2nd, 2013 at 10:05 PM.
 
Old October 2nd, 2013 #72
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Originally Posted by Hadding View Post
That's interesting about Schiff and the Red Cross, and about J.P. Morgan and the bank account, but what are the dates? The dates in this are very important. Bankers making a devil's pact with an established government is very different from the same bankers financing a coup that hasn't yet occurred.

I just browsed at the chapter about the Red Cross in Sutton's book and most of the dates relating to the Red Cross's mission to Russia are from spring and summer 1917, before the Bolsheviks came to power. What's the evidence that the Red Cross was helping the Bolsheviks rather than alleviating troubles under the Kerensky government?

My semi-informed opinion is that Jews in general wanted the liberal government to succeed, but after General Kornilov's attempt to seize power in August 1917 maybe the big Jews realized that the liberal government's days were numbered and gave the nod to the Bolsheviks. The Bolshevik takeover was a total departure from the Marxist script. But in any case it was logical that some kind of totalitarian government promising redistribution of wealth would come to power under the circumstances.
Sorry, I've just edited and missed your post. I've added some info about Charles Crane which is on a USB stick I couldn't locate earlier.

I don't think the bankers financed the Bolsheviks but I think they decided to do business with them once they took control.

I've got a letter from Schiff to Lillian Wald in which (IIRC) he expresses his pleasure with the the Kerensky revolution. I'll copy it later but it's just gone 3 a.m here so I'm off to bed.

P.S. I've also an early (pre-revolution) approach to Robins to go work for Schiff and Wald, etc, but it's a few years since I used it and I'm having trouble remembering where I've put that, as well!
 
Old October 2nd, 2013 #73
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I don't think the bankers financed the Bolsheviks but I think they decided to do business with them once they took control.
That makes perfect sense.
 
Old October 2nd, 2013 #74
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Originally Posted by Matthaus Hetzenauer View Post
Pardon the intrusion, but...

Come on, Hadding; let's get real here. I'm absolutely certain that Karl does not believe for one fucking second that jews, in any number at all, were deported to "death camps." Could it be that he merely forgot to put the term in parentheses? I don't know.

Well, Karl?
Since he had quoted some paragraphs including the reference to "the deportation of 500,000 Jews to the Nazi death camps" as ostensible GOOD INFORMATION, it seemed reasonable to ask if he really believed that. He was presenting that information with an endorsement. Evidently the miscommunication was my fault because I don't generally read "Karl Radl's" tedious shit and therefore didn't already know what all his views were. Silly me.

I just know that his display image pretty much screams that he's a submissive male who likes a dildo up his ass.

Last edited by Hadding; October 3rd, 2013 at 12:00 AM.
 
Old October 3rd, 2013 #75
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I just know that his display image pretty much screams that he's a submissive male who likes a dildo up his ass.
If by display image you mean his av, I totally disagree with your assessment. Matter of fact, I was going to ask Karl to have Hottie Heidi button up her tunic a bit as it was getting me, well, all hot and bothered...
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Old October 3rd, 2013 #76
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If by display image you mean his av, I totally disagree with your assessment. Matter of fact, I was going to ask Karl to have Hottie Heidi button up her tunic a bit as it was getting me, well, all hot and bothered...
Hadding doesn't have a sense of humour or irony (or least I've never seen him exhibit one or heard of him doing so): I think most people who have encountered him know that.
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Old October 3rd, 2013 #77
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If by display image you mean his av, I totally disagree with your assessment. Matter of fact, I was going to ask Karl to have Hottie Heidi button up her tunic a bit as it was getting me, well, all hot and bothered...
It's not an issue of boobage (although I think that getting hot over a cartoon also indicates somebody who hasn't been with women much). A male who fantasizes about dominant females hasn't really matured. He's a little boy looking for some kind of mother-figure to do kinky things to him so that he can get gratification without ever properly taking the man's role.

That's his business of course, but the avatar screams it.

Last edited by Hadding; October 3rd, 2013 at 03:10 PM.
 
Old November 10th, 2013 #78
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Edit: Original link not working for me, so:

http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2013/...at-is-zionism/

I know this is a controversial site. And, the article is from a longer piece:

http://lassewilhelmson.wordpress.com/what-is-zionism/

http://lassewilhelmson.wordpress.com...and-apartheid/

Last edited by M. Gerard; November 10th, 2013 at 11:14 AM.
 
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