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Old March 9th, 2012 #1
Alex Linder
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Default China under Mao

Been reading "Mao's Great Famine," by Frank Dikotter, with umlaut on the o. Book came out in 2010.

He claims chinese archives have never really been opened like the soviets' finally were after 1989, but now they're starting to. He estimates 45 million dead in 1958-1962 thanks to the insanity of Big Wang and his cadres. That's the difference between capitalism and communism: communism starves 45 million - f o r t y f i v e m i l l i o n (45, 000, 000) in four or five years; capitalism gives you 45 different varieties of knockoff Mountain Dew.

I have read little about Chinese commuism; the most memorable stuff I've read came from Frank Ellis in his monograph on political correctness, which I discussed on Radio Istina years ago. And there was comparatively little on that. What I recall is the sliteyes were big on self examination, seriously perverse forms of browbeating, torture and mental abuse. In a mere fifty pages, the commie wackos have the teeming millions of peasants engaged in a variety of tasks that are scientifically impossible. And if they don't like working 24 hours a day on some shitty rice gruel, be they pregnant, sick, ninety, they are beaten and called rightist conservatives.

The sad thing is, you can see the Big Wang mentality anywhere you care to look, most certainly including this forum. It sounds all cool and trendy when you say reality is whatever you make it. Or thinking makes it so. But when the dipshit saying that isn't some retarded college chick but the dictator of a billion+ people, and he's insisting on a new ways of cultivating plants -- close-cropping and deep-seeding that scientifically cannot work, it's really not so funny. Especially when his shitheads have locked up the exits and are standing their with whips and worse if you dare to speak up. Probably communism under Mao was as bad, for a time and place, as any set of hominids has ever endured.

Last edited by Alex Linder; March 9th, 2012 at 10:53 AM.
 
Old March 9th, 2012 #2
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Notes so far:

- earlier estimates were 15-32m dead in Great Leap Forward, but, as the jew-aware would expect, this is a deliberate underestimate: "this book shows that at least 45 million died unnecessarily between 1958 and 1962." (pg x)

- couple interesting terms, possibly capable of repurposing: 'maojin' (rash advance an anti-GLF term; yuejin - 'leap forward'). some whitehead shithead did a song with a non-ironic use of 'great leap forward,' probably the tool's tool Billy Bragg or similar UK vocal vacuity. (pg 9)

- Mao me-too'd Khrushchev in late fifties: bucktooth Krushy was going to surpass the mighty US in fifteen years, so Mao would overtake 'industrial power' Britain in a fast fifteen. Yes, the author explains that back then Britain was actually considered an industrial power, strange as it sounds to modern ears. (p15)

- central planning has failed more times than jesus, but has just as many fans. some dipshit, name doesn't matter because no one remembers chinese names, was responsible for 'central planning.' Big Wang sets a production goal. Wang #2 writes up a telephone book of regulations and sub-plans for implementing the master. It never occurs to the type of people who usually rise to the top in politics that their particular, cough, skillset, which is basically lying, intriguing, murdering - doesn't work so well on coaxing cotton or copper out of the ground. But of course they never attribute their failure to their own mistaken ideas, they simply have their minions whip the poor peasants all the harder. Everybody has to top the neighbor's production quotas, so, since that can't be done by the methods insisted on by Big Wang, everybody is reduced to...lying. Of course, anyone who grumbled would be denounced as a rightist, and possibly beaten up, or forced to make public confession. In a much more concentrated an intense way, these "you're a conservative" is the same thing today's jew-controlled media does when it calls, say, anyone in any country pushing any position 'conservative' if he opposes the NWO-jewish agenda. Even if the guy is a communist, as we have seen many times in Russia in the post-'89 period.

- 'when the Yellow River flows clear' - chinese equivalent of 'when pigs fly.' so naturally Mao tries to make pigs fly. He is warned that his dam plans for the big muddy won't work, but that doesn't stop him. Man must be the least reality-oriented organism on the planet. Our brains are a real fifty-fifty proposition, they're like waves, always on the verge of toppling over and destroying themselves. It is quite obvious that it is extremely dangerous to centralize power. It is much better to break it up and scatter it, so that the damage that one man can do, which is roughly infinitely greater than the good, is limited to a much smaller area, and conspicuous to the greatest number by virtue of the counter-examples around his. Man, Stu-vania sucks red ass! Yeah, but Mao-nania, is fucking crazy! They have old women literally pulling plows while their female organs are coming out of their legs-holes! They are ignoring thousands of years' experience cultivating a crop because Mao says: "With company they grow easily, when they grow together they will be more comfortable." Thanks, Dr. Slant-Eyed Phil-o-shit. Talk about power corrupting absolutely. This guy literally thinks he can dictate to plants the right way to grow. And he is in charge of hundreds of millions of people. (pg 39)

Last edited by Alex Linder; March 9th, 2012 at 10:54 AM.
 
Old March 9th, 2012 #3
Donald E. Pauly
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Smile China on Purim Day

Here is a letter that I wrote to Israel Shamir the day before Purim. It bears on the subject of Chinese political correctness. This refers to the post "China: Rise, Fall and Re-Emergence as a Glob" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shamireaders/message/2404 .

Email addresses have been redacted to foil spam harvesting robots.
Quote:

From: Donald E. Pauly
Date: 2012/3/7
Subject: Petras China Essay
To: israel shamir, "Donald E. Pauly"

Professor Shamir WEZ:

First I want to wish you and the other Wise Elders of Zion a Happy Purim one day early. It may be two days early for you since Moscow is a walled city. You Jews may attack Persia tomorrow and may be too busy to read a letter from me anyway. You didn't finish the job on Haman and his merry band the last time. Now you have to get your Christian soldiers to clean up your mess.

Clearly Petras is not an English major, but neither am I. He should change "principle" to "principal" in four places.

The essay on China is great as far as it goes, but fails to consider many things. It fails to mention that the Opium War was a product of the English Jew Sasson and his co-racialists. Modern Chinamen will not forget it. You Jews have been infecting your White host for 2,000 years. That host is now near death and you may think that you can jump to the Yellow host. That Yellow host will eat you. Hundreds of millions of Chinese dogs will wholeheartedly endorse this form of anti-Semitism.

Chairman Mao, of Blessed Memory, did not get his due. His observation:"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" was omitted. When it came to ruling China, a librarian like him was out of his depth. The author failed to mention the "Great Leap Forward". Back yard blast furnaces were built all over the country to make iron. The quality was so bad that it all had to be melted for scrap. Chairman Mao also reduced political correctness to an exact science.

The author failed to note that the last two head Chinamen have been engineers. Zemin is an electrical engineer and Jintao is a hydraulic engineer. The next projected head Chinaman is a chemical engineer. A country ruled by engineers is fundamentally different from one ruled by lawyers and Jews. The Fuhrer, of Blessed Memory, was an artist with a very good sense of proportion. Even then he was sometimes over his depth.

China holds well over $2.4 trillion of U.S. debt, not $1.3 trillion as stated. They can trigger hyperinflation and collapse the U.S. economy at any time. They will milk this debt so long as they can find any fool around the world to take their U.S. dollars.

You may sanitize this letter for the eyes of your gentile readers.

LIBG! TYIJ!

Donald E. Pauly
Zionist Rastafarian
13th in Adar, 5772

Last edited by Donald E. Pauly; March 9th, 2012 at 11:03 AM. Reason: typo
 
Old March 9th, 2012 #4
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Nice letter. A major player in the opium trade was the American Warren Delano of Newburgh NY, Frank Rosenfeld's grandfather. Delano was what organized crime today would call a 'big earner' in the business When the ships from India pulled into Canton China, he'd go aboard, crack open a box of opium and make sure he was getting his money's worth. Made a lot of money. In fact, most of it this way. China trying to clean things up= 'Opium Wars'.
 
Old March 9th, 2012 #5
Donald E. Pauly
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Smile Mao's Great Famine Book Review

It looks to me like Chairman Mao starved the wrong 45 million to death. Stalin never made a similar mistake.

Quote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010...ikotter-review

Mao's Great Famine by Frank Dikötter
The horrors of China's Great Leap Forward are unveiled in this masterly study of the hateful plan


Caption:Chairman Mao in 1958 when he launched his Great Leap Forward. Photograph: APIC


Frank Dikötter has written a masterly book that should be read not just by anybody interested in modern Chinese history but also by anybody concerned with the way in which a simple idea propagated by an autocratic national leader can lead a country to disaster, in this case to a degree that beggars the imagination.

Mao's Great Famine: The History of China's Most Devastating Catastrophe, 1958-62
by Frank Dikotter

Buy it from the Guardian bookshop
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The basic narrative of the great famine that hit the People's Republic around 1960 has been known outside China at least since Jasper Becker's groundbreaking 1996 account, Hungry Ghosts. Its claims were doubted by those who could not accept the sheer monstrous scale of the calamity visited on the Chinese people as a result of the Great Leap Forward launched by Mao in 1958 to propel China into the ranks of major industrial nations. But now Dikötter's painstaking research in newly opened local archives makes all too credible his estimate that the death toll reached 45 million people.

Staggering though it is, the statistical total is only part of the story that this book tells. By digging into the records, Dikötter provides a detailed litany of the degree of suffering the Great Helmsman unleashed and the inhumane manner in which his acolytes operated. Horrors pile up as he tells of the spread of collective farms and the vast projects that caused more harm than good and involved the press-ganging of millions of people into forced labour. As the pressure mounted to provide the all-powerful state with more and more output, the use of extreme violence became the norm, with starvation used as a weapon to punish those who could not keep up with the work routine demanded of them. The justice system was abolished. Brutal party cadres ran amok. "It is impossible not to beat people to death," one county leader said.

In the draconian, top-down, militaristic system that ruled China, the harsh execution of orders was a way for officials to win promotion as they were set impossible targets for everything – even for the number of executions. The inefficiency, waste and destruction were gigantic. The masses in whose name the Communist party claimed to rule were eminently disposable. From 1927 to their victory in 1949, Mao and his companions had waged ruthless warfare (against equally ruthless if less effective nationalist opponents); now the campaign was economic and the farmers and industrial workers were the fodder expected to sacrifice themselves for the cause dictated from on high. Anybody not ready to lay down their life would have it taken from them in the name of the higher good of the cause.

The book's title is somewhat misleading. Horrific as it was, with its cannibalism and people eating mud in search of sustenance, the famine generated by the Great Leap's failure and the diversion of labour from farming was only part of a saga of oppression, cruelty and lies on a gargantuan scale. Initially launched to enable China to overtake Britain in steel production, Mao's programme took on a deadly life of its own. At the apex of the system, the chairman refused to recognise reality, spoke of people eating five meals a day, insisted on maintaining food exports when his country was starving and indulged in macabre throwaway remarks such as: "When there is not enough to eat, people starve to death. It is better to let half of the people die so that the other half can eat their fill."

The depth of Dikötter's research is enhanced by the way in which he tells his terrible story. The book is extremely clearly written, avoiding the melodrama that infused some other recent broadbrush accounts of Mao's sins. He also puts the huge disaster that befell China into the context it needs – the Sino-Soviet split, Mao's ambitions for the People's Republic and the acquiescence of most of those around him until it was too late.

Finally, somebody had to confront the leader. As China descended into catastrophe, the second-ranking member of the regime, Liu Shaoqi, who had been shocked at the conditions he found when he visited his home village, forced the chairman to retreat. An effort at national reconstruction began. But Mao was not finished. Four years later, he launched the Cultural Revolution whose most prominent victim was Liu, hounded by Red Guards until he died in 1969, deprived of medicines and cremated under a false name.

The Cultural Revolution is widely remembered, the Great Leap much less so. Having gone through those two experiences, not to mention the mass purges that preceded them and the Beijing massacre of 4 June 1989, it is little wonder if the Chinese of today are set on a very different course that rejects ideology in the interests of material self-advancement.

But there is one enormous snag. The Communist party still holds that Mao was 70% good, 30% bad. The Great Helmsman's face stares out over Tiananmen Square and from the country's bank notes. If the bad things that happened under him are common knowledge, he has slipped into the time-honoured category of rulers who wished to do good but whose aims were traduced by evil subordinates.

Though some mainland historians have bravely delved into the history of the period covered in this book, the truth is still too troubling to be acknowledged openly by the current rulers of China for one simple reason: Mao is the first emperor of the regime established in 1949 and they are his heirs. Dikötter's superb book pulls another brick from the wall.

Jonathan Fenby is author of The Penguin History of Modern China. His most recent book is The General: Charles de Gaulle and the France He Saved (Simon & Schuster).
 
Old March 9th, 2012 #6
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Default "behind every tyrant is a jew"

and don't forget, there were at least three jewish puppet masters behind the scenes manipulating mao the marionette. to this day, senior party members honor these three.
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Old March 9th, 2012 #7
Michael Armstrong
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One can see the 'alien like' shift in approach to things in how Mao attempted and made radical rapid changes, when Chinese thinking usually indicates slow and gradual change is best. Gradual change revealing the effects of the change made, so it can be corrected if it shows the change is not producing the desired results.

Mao made rapid change which has destroyed the Chinese family. No longer do the Chinese have brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, so that makes each individual more isolated from the thinking of an extended family.

Two links stand out in my mind:

The Taiwan Question


and

Jewish faces in the Chinese Government

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Old March 9th, 2012 #8
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Quote:
He claims chinese archives have never really been opened like the soviets' finally were after 1989, but now they're starting to. He estimates 45 million dead in 1958-1962 thanks to the insanity of Big Wang and his cadres. That's the difference between capitalism and communism: communism starves 45 million - f o r t y f i v e m i l l i o n (45, 000, 000) in four or five years; capitalism gives you 45 different varieties of knockoff Mountain Dew.
Capitalism is a generous God, indeed.

"Bless us Oh Lord of Money, and these thy gifts of soda pop, which we are about to receive, from thy bounty, through Capitalism, Our Lord. Amen."

If only we could learn to make Mountain Dew ourselves, without the aid of Capitalism. Is it not said, "that Capitalism helps those that help themselves."
 
Old March 9th, 2012 #9
Alex Linder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procopius View Post
Capitalism is a generous God, indeed.

"Bless us Oh Lord of Money, and these thy gifts of soda pop, which we are about to receive, from thy bounty, through Capitalism, Our Lord. Amen."

If only we could learn to make Mountain Dew ourselves, without the aid of Capitalism. Is it not said, "that Capitalism helps those that help themselves."
Mountain Dew is the sinister fruit of an unholy plot hatched by dentists in conjunction with jewish speculators.

That's why I drink "Mountain Explosion," an imitator that surpasses the original on tap at Dollar General.

Am I kidding? I sure should be.

Soft drinks are simply terrible for the body, that is one of the rare health 'facts' that will survive inspection from any number of eyes attacked to labradoodles.

They say eggs are bad. They are wrong. They say coffee is bad. They are wrong. They say bacon is bad. They are mostly wrong. They say steak is bad. They are wrong. They say salt is bad. They are wrong.

They say sugar is bad, they are right. They say soft drinks are terrible, they are right.

Last edited by Alex Linder; March 9th, 2012 at 04:07 PM.
 
Old March 9th, 2012 #10
Alex Linder
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Seriously, it would be funny to list all the Mountain Dew knockoffs. I was exaggerating when I tapped 45; I suspect the real number is half that, but I would not be surprised to be wrong.

I didn't mean it as some rah-rah thing for capitalism either, I was just trying to make a nicely memorable contrast. I really don't feel much sympathy for people who whine, like religious folks do, particularly catholic, about a system that makes all kinds of material goods available to average people, even if some of those goods aren't all that, well, good for them. Everybody has vices, and vice-crusading is the worst of them all, and the most dangerous, and the most irritating, and the most socially destructive - see prohibition.
 
Old March 9th, 2012 #11
Rick Ronsavelle
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Default vices are not crimes by Lysander Spooner

Audio here: http://librivox.org/vices-are-not-cr...ander-spooner/

Rothbard comments on Spooner:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard159.html

Lysander_Spooner Lysander_Spooner

 
Old March 16th, 2012 #12
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- more notes on this book. start by saying it irritates me that emotional subject matter like this is treated dispassionately by the author. this is a professional deformation of the phd class. something about going thru that process makes them all write looking side to side and over their shoulder. all they can think about is maintaining the correct prose pose in front of their peers. look, guys, it is perfectly fine to wax emotional where the material warrants it. all that matters from the 'objective' point of view, so to speak, is that when you make a factual claim, your fact actually is in fact a fact. if you have that squared away, the rest is up to you, and you should use whatever literary arts you have, not hide your paints under a bushel out of the need to be seemly. dramatize - to make vivid is to make memorable is to get your lesson across is to fulfill your task - right? god forbid your stuff, whatever it is, be entertaining as well as instructive, like those two categories are mutually exclusive or even opposed, rather than reinforcing, if handled correctly.
 
Old March 16th, 2012 #13
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- this is how dumb socialists are, thinking reality is their bitch, remakeable by their whim. Think of Atkins, the poster here. His attitude is exactly the same as Mao's, and if he were in charge, we'd experience exactly the same results: mass poverty, starvation and murder. Here's the commie/Atkins attitude:

Quote:
Bourgeois specialists were excoriated as conservative rightists, while the earthbound wisdom of simple peasants (ie, the chinese equivalent of alabamans) was hailed instead. In Yunnan party boss Xie Fuzhi openly scoffed at geological measurements and technological surveys recommended by Russian experts, relying instead on the wisdom of the masses in building dams and reservoirs. (p.56)
This type of mind thinks everything is easy. Drilling oil? delivering it for $1 gallon? Child's play. If oil or gas or whatever isn't available in the amounts and types I want, that's because "greedy" capitalists are making "obscene" profits. Why, anyone can see that the oil business requires no special brains or knowledge, therefore it is merely a matter of putting the powers of production in the hands of wise leaders, who will set production quotas and prices correctly, leading to White Utopia.

Fools never know they're fools, that's what makes them fools.

Last edited by Alex Linder; March 16th, 2012 at 06:52 PM.
 
Old March 16th, 2012 #14
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The actual grain output for 1958 was just over 200 million tonnes, but on the basis of all the claims made about bumper crops the leadership estaimated tht it was close to 410 million tonnes. Punitive extractions based on entirely fictitious figures could only create fear and anger in the villages. The stage was set for a war on the people in which requisitions would plunge the country into the worst famine recorded in human history. Tan Zhenlin was blunt, addressing some of the leaders of South China in October 1958: 'You need to fight against the peasants . . . There is something ideologically wrong with you if you are afraid of coercion.' (p.63)

There you go. The paranoid crank running the system sets production quotas straight out of la-la land. There's no physical way the quotas can be met, but since his cadres beat anyone who speaks this obvious truth, headquarters gets back lots of happy reports about quotas met and exceeded. This unhappy system results in tens of millions of people starving to death while on paper (China) is leaping forward to surpass the production of the capitalist countries of the West.
 
Old March 16th, 2012 #15
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More Mao genius - the country isn't producing enough food to feed itself, but he's insistent on selling what little can be come up with to foreigners to raise money.

Mao stepped in and recommended vegetarianism as a solution: 'We should save on clothing and food to guarantee exports, otherwise if 650 million people start eating a little more our export surplus will all be eaten up. Horses, cows, sheep, chicken, dogs, pigs: six of the farm animals don't eat meat, and aren't they all alive? Some people don't eat meat either, old Xu didn't eat meat and he lived till he was eighty. (p.81)

This guy runs a nation of 650 million, and this is the quality of his thought. And if you disagree, you can very readily be beaten to death, or starved, or left naked and freezing in the winter.

Of course, stuff produced by socialists/communists tends to be shit quality, that's why no one wants it. All that corner cutting to comply with politically-set production quotas that respond to no actual need, but are figments of some tyrant's desire. Mao, for ego reasons, wants China to surpass Britain in various industrial measures within fifteen years. Why? No valid reason. He just thinks it should. Result: millions starve, contracts can't be upheld, shoddy products are delivered and sent back:

[A]s the pressure to deliver increased, another problem appeared. Local units started cutting corners in order to meet their targets, leading to falling standards in the quality of exports. The Soviet Union lodged repeated complaints about the quality of meat, which was often contaminated by bacteria. Up to a third of the porrk tins were rusty. [...] [P]aper exported to Hong Kong was unusable, batteries bought by Iraq were leaking, whle the Swiss found that a fifth of hte shipped coal consisted of stones. West Germany discovered Salmonella in 500 tonnes of eggs, and in Morocco a third of all pumpkin seeds bought from teh People's Republic were infested with insects. (p.82)
 
Old March 16th, 2012 #16
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Back in the late 50's early 60's Mao initiated a campaign to kill flies and mosquito's and sparrows. A hygiene thing I guess. Anyway he had about half a billion slopes do just that, kill every fly and mosquito in the land. Had them all out in the fields banging pots and pans to keep the sparrows flying until exhaustion. Something about the oriental mind that I'll never get. Fearless leader says kill bugs and the entire population complies. They fucked up with the sparrows though. The original thinking was the sparrows eat the grain so kill them and grain supplies go up. Except the sparrows also eat locusts and once the birds went pretty much extinct the locusts went apeshit devastating all the crops and contributing to the great Chinese famine.
 
Old March 16th, 2012 #17
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Reads books on Mao

Can't figure out the alt+148 ascii combo.
 
Old March 16th, 2012 #18
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Instead of following the Soviet model of development, which leaned heavily towards industry alone, China would ‘walk on two legs’: the peasant masses were mobilised to transform both agriculture and industry at the same time, converting a backward economy into a modern communist society of plenty for all. ~Preface I

This is one of those things that Dikötter is so excelled in, it lays out the entire foundation for the Maoist form of socialism, in that from Mao's entire reign was essentially one absurd five-year program. The absurdity was such that one of the leading reasons for the falling out between China and the USSR was due not to philosophical differences but humanitarian ones, likely had a lot to do with the Russians who worked briefly in China helping them realize the Soviet form of socialist economics.

Another big factor what the complete disregard China had for patents and intellectual property, frequently reverse-engineering Russian tech which itself was developed using WWII era engineering and German influence to a great degree. They were even doing it in the 1980s where possible.

Between 1958 and 1962, China descended into hell. Mao Zedong, Chairman of the Chinese Communist Party, threw his country into a frenzy with the Great Leap Forward, an attempt to catch up with and overtake Britain in less than fifteen years. ~id.

This strikes me as complete bizarre, given by 1958 Britain was hardly a force to be reckoned with. You would think that after seeing American soldiers and Russian pilots, highly organized, mobilized and technologically superior, that the British would be the last of China's focus on foreign competitors. Likely the Shanghai and later Hong Kong had a real and lasting effect on Chinese mentality, something Mao capitalized on.

Another interesting point is where the so-called 'Canteens' allocated food resources based on 'merit.' This strikes me as somewhat bizarre and especially anti-socialist, given the Leninist adage: Each according to their needs. Mao's country was not socialist or even communist at all, but a despotic meritocracy, morphing into something more akin to a despotic autocracy with trappings of a free market (paid by the West, of course).
 
Old March 16th, 2012 #19
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Unlike comparable disasters, for instance those that took place under Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin, the true dimensions of what happened during the Great Leap Forward remain little known. ~id. II

Anachronism alert. I wonder what economic 'disasters' Dikötter is referring to when he brings up Hitler? Perhaps he is one of those closet NS, or merely just looking at politics in black and white. Hitler did everything to avoid Mao's folly, in fact dedicating his life, guns and countrymen to destroying it.
 
Old March 17th, 2012 #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve B View Post
Back in the late 50's early 60's Mao initiated a campaign to kill flies and mosquito's and sparrows. A hygiene thing I guess. Anyway he had about half a billion slopes do just that, kill every fly and mosquito in the land. Had them all out in the fields banging pots and pans to keep the sparrows flying until exhaustion. Something about the oriental mind that I'll never get. Fearless leader says kill bugs and the entire population complies. They fucked up with the sparrows though. The original thinking was the sparrows eat the grain so kill them and grain supplies go up. Except the sparrows also eat locusts and once the birds went pretty much extinct the locusts went apeshit devastating all the crops and contributing to the great Chinese famine.
Yep. I'm getting to that. It really is like the worst of all possible worlds: a complete shit theory created by a jew, put into operation by incredibly blind-spotted, unimaginative, passive-imitative asians.
 
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