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June 10th, 2008 | #41 | |
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slamin2:
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MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: And tell us, please, how did the Germans behave while killing their victims in Treblinka? RAJZMAN: If you mean the actual executions, every German guard had his special job. I shall cite only one example. We had a ScharFuehrer Menz, whose special job was to guard the so-called "Lazarett." In this "Lazarett" all weak women and little children were exterminated who had not the strength to go themselves to the gas chambers. MR. COUNSELLOR SMIRNOV: Perhaps, Witness, you can describe this "Lazarett" to the Tribunal? SAMUEL RAJZMAN: This was part of a square which was closed in with a wooden fence. All women, aged persons, and sick children were driven there... If all the weak women and children, the aged persons and the sick and weak from the transports were taken to and shot in the lazarett, then actually there would have to be more than 50,000. Probably much more. I guess I have just been using 50,000 as a conservative estimate. So again, thanks for reminding me of my much too low estimate and I will try to remember from here on to use AT LEAST when I mention the figure of the 50,000 jews allegedly shot in the Treblinka Lazarett. But of course that is not all. If you read the "eyewittness testimony," jews were allegedly being shot all the time every day all over the camp for any and every reason. The "eyewitness testimony" is full of tall tales of jewish workers being shot - dozens of them every single day, at all locations in the camp, most for the most minor of infractions. So yeah, 50,000 would be considered a very conservitive estimate. |
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June 10th, 2008 | #42 |
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Well don't I feel like an idiot. Now that I look, I see that I did use the phrase AT LEAST 50,000. But if you will notice Slamin2, I also quote Arad and use the phrase - "tens of thousands." In fact, now that I think about it, "tens of thousands" is the phrase that I use most often when talking about the alleged bullets and shell casings that could be found at Treblinka - IF the big-lie were true.
But of course, it is all a moot point, as you will soon see. |
June 10th, 2008 | #43 |
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Final Summation
The alleged photographic documentation of the "physical evidence" for the alleged mass murder of 870,000 jews at Treblinka, as presented by Roberto Muehlenkamp in her “debate” with Greg Gerdes: # 1 - The "huge mass graves - A – Aerial photo (Roberta claims the alleged graves are in the “receiving area” of the camp): http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...r1944_edit.jpg B – Ground photo (Roberta claims the alleged grave is “exactly” in the “death camp” area): http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg # 2 - Corpses / bones / cremated remains / miscellaneous photos: http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5811_1_web.jpg http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_2.jpg http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/photos.html http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html # 3 – Teeth: Roberta was unable to provide any physical evidence / photographic proof what-so-ever that so much as a single tooth was ever found at Treblinka. # 4 - Bullets & Shell casings: Roberta was unable to provide any physical evidence / photographic proof what-so-ever that so much as a single bullet or shell casing was ever found at Treblinka. # 5 – The “bullet catcher:” Roberta was unable to provide any physical evidence / photographic proof what-so-ever for the alleged “bullet catcher” she claims was employed at Treblinka. # 6 - Photos of the camp itself taken from the outside: Roberta was unable to provide any photographs what-so-ever of the camp itself taken from outside of the camp. |
June 11th, 2008 | #44 | |||||||||||
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Ah, and it’s always amusing to see how afraid you are even of the little evidence you dare to address at all, to the point of calling into question its authenticity with your "alleged" BS. Quote:
a) Provide what I have asked you to provide about a dozen times throughout our discussion, an acceptable justification for your sole focus of photographic documentation of physical evidence and your ignoring not only written documentation of such evidence, but also all documentary and eyewitnesses evidence I have presented; b) If you cannot provide such explanation, include into the record of evidence under discussion not only photographs, but also written descriptions of the physical evidence as well as the documentary and eyewitness evidence I have referred to. Which of them shall it be, Gerdes? Alternative a) or alternative b)? Or will it again the cowardly way out you have chosen so far, that of focusing on photographic documentation alone without so much as trying to provide a reason for this highly unscientific focus on just one type of record of just one category of evidence? Quote:
1. Regarding the photo under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/photos.html that is captioned «MASS GRAVE If Treblinka, the boards were added to the bodies in course of a test burning. Usually the victims were buried in mass graves, later cremated on roasts. Photo: Bundesarchiv No. 183-F0918-0201-011» , answer the question what, if not a corner of one mass grave where the bodies have been covered with boards and what looks like tarpaulin sheets, you think this photograph shows. 2. Regarding the excavator photos shown under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/excavators2.html , answer the question what you think those excavators would have been doing in what you claim was a "transit camp". 3. Regarding the marked-up air photo shown under http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...r1944_edit.jpg , answer the question what, if not mass graves in a section of the camp where eyewitnesses described mass graves – namely what that would be compatible with your "transit camp" theory – the ground scarring shapes I pointed out are supposed to have been. 4. Regarding the ground photos shown under the following links: http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_3.jpg , answer the question what, if not parts of the former Treblinka extermination camp and especially the burial area described in the Polish site investigation reports of 13 November and 29 December 1945 quoted in my article Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure … under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html, these photos are supposed to show. 5. Regarding the above-mentioned site investigation reports, answer the question why, i.e. on the basis of what rules or standards of evidence you can show us, you don’t include these written descriptions of the physical evidence on site in the record of physical evidence to the Treblinka mass killings. 6. Regarding the documentary and eyewitness evidence listed in my Topix post # 482 under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...H7P8C/p23#c482 , answer the question why, i.e. on the basis of what rules or standards of evidence you can show us, you don’t include this documentary and eyewitness evidence in the record of evidence to the Treblinka mass killings. 7. Regarding your claim that Treblinka was a "transit camp", answer the question where the about 750,000 people deported to Treblinka in 1942/43 are supposed to have been "transited" to from there, and show evidence regarding their transportation to such places and their accommodation there. As the Germans would have had no reason to destroy the records of an innocuous resettlement operation, there should be plenty such evidence around. Just seven questions for you to answer, Mr. Gerdes. When you have reasonably answered these questions, I’ll agree to our moving on. >After my final summation, we can move on to the next phase of our "debate." Only if your "final summation" contains reasonable, evidence-backed answers to the above seven questions, Gerdes. Otherwise your "moving on" will be nothing better than cowardly running away from evidence, arguments and questions you cannot address. |
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June 11th, 2008 | #45 | |||||||||||
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And where did you provide the requested explanation? Nowhere? Poor show. You must have manure instead of brains to go bragging to your "White" buddies with such clear demonstration of your lack of arguments and dishonest debating tactics. Or do you think they have manure instead of brains inside their skulls? Quote:
What part of the word "relevance" is too hard for you to understand, Gerdes? Quote:
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June 11th, 2008 | #46 |
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Final Summation
The alleged photographic documentation of the "physical evidence" for the alleged murder of 870,000 jews at Treblinka, as presented by Roberto Muehlenkamp in her “debate” with Greg Gerdes: # 1 - The "huge mass graves - A – Aerial photo (Roberta claims the alleged graves are in the “receiving area” of the camp): http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...r1944_edit.jpg B – Ground photo (Roberta claims the alleged grave is “exactly” in the “death camp” area): http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg # 2 - Corpses / bones / cremated remains / miscellaneous photos: http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5811_1_web.jpg http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_2.jpg http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/photos.html http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html # 3 – Teeth: Roberta was unable to provide any physical evidence / photographic proof what-so-ever that so much as a single tooth was ever found at Treblinka. # 4 - Bullets & Shell casings: Roberta was unable to provide any physical evidence / photographic proof what-so-ever that so much as a single bullet or shell casing was ever found at Treblinka. # 5 - Photos of the camp itself taken from the outside: Roberta was unable to provide any photographs what-so-ever of the alleged camp itself taken from outside of the camp. Not a single photo of this alleged monstrous death factory that allegedly operated for well over a year. * * * * * But of course, we all know that just because Roberta has entered something into evidence, that doesn't make it evidence. So we are now in the next phase of our "debate." Roberta, prove that the following photos were taken in / at Treblinka: 1 - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg 2 - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5811_1_web.jpg 3 - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg 4 - http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_2.jpg Proof Roberta. Proof. |
June 11th, 2008 | #47 |
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OK Roberta, moving on.
Roberta, prove that the following photos were taken in / at Treblinka: http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/excavators2.html http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/i...mass_grave.htm And prove that there are "huge mass graves" under the areas that you have drawn on this photo: http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...r1944_edit.jpg Proof Roberta. Proof. |
June 12th, 2008 | #48 | ||||||||
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Either your "White" buddies are as dumb and short of memory as you are, or they know your list by heart already and yawn every time you repeat it. Can’t you be less of a bore, Gerdes? How about answering the seven questions I asked you in my last post: Quote:
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Can you name a good reason, compatible with the evidentiary record of Treblinka, why I should necessarily have photographic documentation of teeth on the Treblinka site at my disposal? No, you cannot. Can you explain why Grossman’s eyewitness testimony and the Polish militia report I quoted are not sufficient evidence that teeth were lying around on the Treblinka site and were picked up by robbery diggers, which would be the only reason to ask for further evidence, photographic or other? No, you cannot. Can you even explain what any evidence to the presence of teeth on the Treblinka site is supposed to matter for the purpose of proving what happened at Treblinka, especially considering the physical, documentary and eyewitness evidence I have shown? No, you cannot. So do yourself a favor, Gerdes: drop the silly babbling about teeth. That’s well-meaning advice. If, of course, you insist in making a bloody fool of yourself, I have no objection to that. Quote:
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Ah, and every time you make a fuss about what photographs I "was not able" to show (big fucking deal), I’ll remind you of my unanswered questions regarding the photographs I did show: 1. Regarding the photo under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/photos.html that is captioned «MASS GRAVE If Treblinka, the boards were added to the bodies in course of a test burning. Usually the victims were buried in mass graves, later cremated on roasts. Photo: Bundesarchiv No. 183-F0918-0201-011» , answer the question what, if not a corner of one mass grave where the bodies have been covered with boards and what looks like tarpaulin sheets, you think this photograph shows. 2. Regarding the excavator photos shown under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/excavators2.html , answer the question what you think those excavators would have been doing in what you claim was a "transit camp". 3. Regarding the marked-up air photo shown under http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...r1944_edit.jpg , answer the question what, if not mass graves in a section of the camp where eyewitnesses described mass graves – namely what that would be compatible with your "transit camp" theory – the ground scarring shapes I pointed out are supposed to have been. 4. Regarding the ground photos shown under the following links: http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_3.jpg , answer the question what, if not parts of the former Treblinka extermination camp and especially the burial area described in the Polish site investigation reports of 13 November and 29 December 1945 quoted in my article Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure … under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html, these photos are supposed to show. Quote:
The photographs are linked to Treblinka by the sources I took them from, the accuracy of which you can provide no good reason to doubt. And they also happen to show things that correspond to what becomes apparent from site investigation reports and other descriptions of what the Treblinka site looked like when investigated by Polish criminal justice authorities. These descriptions include the following: • The site investigation reports of 13 November and 29 December 1945, quoted in my article Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure … http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html , repeatedly quoted from in this discussion and just as often unreasonably ignored by Gerdes. • The description of the site, quoted from in the Polish newspaper article translated under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/reply/925...ml#reply-92506 , by a member of another delegation from Warsaw which apparently also investigated the Treblinka area, Karol Ogrodowczyk: Quote:
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Therefore, it is not me who has to prove that these photographs were actually taken at Treblinka. It is Gerdes who has to prove that, contrary to what my sources say and all associated evidence indicates, the photos were not actually taken at Treblinka. I could do without the photos, as Gerdes well knows. They are just illustrations of what becomes apparent from other, more telling evidence, and my case stands with or without them. But if Gerdes is so afraid of them that he calls into question their authenticity, he should try substantiating his panicky "doubts". Not that it matters and just for the purpose of amusement, as Gerdes opens his mouth so big yelling for "proof": What exactly would you accept as proof that the photographs were taken at Treblinka, Mr. Gerdes? Let’s hear so we may laugh. Really, Gerdes, it's becoming increasingly obvious how desperately out of arguments you are. Thanks for again showing it so clearly. |
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June 12th, 2008 | #49 | ||||
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So even given that the Polish investigation wasn't a fraud there is no proof that a death camp existed except according to witnesses. The gas chambers themselves have never been found (What a surprise) so you're just jumping to conclusions. Quote:
Last edited by psychologicalshock; June 12th, 2008 at 02:09 PM. |
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June 12th, 2008 | #50 |
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Roberta:
"So while all associated evidence indicates that the photographs in question were not only taken at Treblinka, but... there are no indications known that the photos show anything other than parts of the Treblinka site in 1945. Therefore, it is not me who has to prove that these photographs were actually taken at Treblinka. It is Gerdes who has to prove that... the photos were not actually taken at Treblinka." Then you will have no trouble at all proving that those 7 photos in posts # 46 & 47 were taken at / in Treblinka and the alleged graves you claim to have located on the aerial photo are in fact graves. Roberta: "There are no indications known that the photos show anything other than parts of the Treblinka site in 1945." The excavator photos were supposedly taken in 42 or 43, correct? What proof do you have they were taken in the alleged Treblinka death camp and not, as common sense would suggest, at the sand / gravel quarry .6 miles from Treblinka II? And while you're at it, prove that the building in those excavator photos actually contains homicidal gas chambers. Roberta: "I could do without the photos" Yes Roberta, you will be doing without those 7 photos if you can't prove that they were taken at / in Treblinka. And BTW folks, Roberta is singing the same "I can do without the photos" nonsense in our "debates" about Belzec, Chelmno and Sobibor also. She is getting very very desperate as the noose tightens and she senses what is happening to her. Roberta: "Not that it matters... what exactly would you accept as proof that the photographs were taken at Treblinka, Mr. Gerdes?" The name of the photographer, the date the photos, the alleged location in the camp that they were taken and all the other photos taken by the photographer in Treblinka / on that day. That is just a start. When you can do that, we will get into the analysis of the photos. BTW Roberta, tell us how you first became aware of this photo here: http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_2.jpg Proof Roberta. Proof. |
June 12th, 2008 | #51 |
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BTW psychologicalshock, the 50,000 figure you cite is for Treblinka I, not II, and in all, 440 bodies were found. That's my understanding / opinion of the research anyway.
Roberta: "So it’s completely irrelevant whether or not bullets or shell casings were identified on site. Better get used to the idea. " "Better get used to the idea!" LOL! Oh my, she is getting desperate isn't she? Yes folks, we just have to "get used to the idea" that the Germans committed the perfect crime while allegedly murdering 870,000 jews! Isn't that a wonderful way out of the dilemma for Roberta? Hey Roberta, why don't you just close your eyes, click your heals 3 times and you will find yourself in the wonderful land of Oz and out of this terrible mess you've gotten yourself into. Wouldn’t it be great to be in Roberta’s fantasy world folks? Whenever you find yourself in a pickle, just tell others to “get used to the idea” that reality is what ever it is you want / need it to be at the moment. “No officer, I wasn’t speeding. Your radar gun is broken – “get used to the idea.” “No your honor, I didn’t rape her. No means yes in my world – “get used to the idea.” “No, I don’t have to pay for that tank of gas. I don’t use money in my world – “get used to the idea.” “No, I don’t have to prove that those photos were actually taken at / in Treblinka. If I say they were, then they were – “get used to the idea.” Yes folks, we just need to "get used to the idea" of a physical impossibility so Roberta can "do without the photos" and physical evidence and fall back to her "eyewitnesses" and their Alice in Wonderland impossible tall tales. But then again, "getting used to the idea" shouldn't be too hard. After all, we've had to "get used to the idea" that 6 million jews magically disappeared during WWII, so “getting used to the idea” that tens of thousands of bullets and shell casing magically disappeared shouldn't be so hard, should it? LOL! BTW Roberta, how are you coming along with finding a photo of the "bullet catchers" the Germans used in Treblinka? Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!! |
June 12th, 2008 | #52 |
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Just a point of clarification:
I'm not saying 50,000 died in Treblinka I, I'm just saying that that is what was claimed by Zdzisław Łukaszkiewicz in his report of December 29, 1945: "In this camp [Treblinka I] approximately 50,000 Poles and Jews were killed." (USSR-344. GARF, 7445-2-126.) Anyway, Roberta, how you coming along with verifying that those photos you presented as "evidence" for the Treblinka holohoax were really taken in / at Treblinka? And don't forget that we're still waiting for a photo of the "bullet catcher!" |
June 13th, 2008 | #53 | |||||||||||||||||||
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Wow, looks like someone realized that Gerdes is not doing well and decided to help him.
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But you get points for at least trying to address the documentary evidence, something your friend Gerdes never dared to do. Maybe you can answer the question I asked Gerdes about the documents quoted in my posts nos. 295 to 300 of our Topix discussion. You find these posts under http://www.topix.com/forum/history/T...T8PL8H7P8C/p15 . Quote:
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As to the examples you have provided: Quote:
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On the other hand, even if the individual eyewitnesses you referred to had been wholly unreliable, this would tell us nothing at all about the reliability of any other eyewitnesses. Ever eyewitness is a separate individual, and the reliability of every eyewitness must be individually assessed. Quote:
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Of course the Germans were concerned about salvaging resources. Why else would they have bothered to collect and keep account of all objects they took away from the Jews before killing them? You may view records of the plunder under http://www.death-camps.org/reinhard/arloot.htm . Quote:
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Anyway, thanks for bringing some new arguments into the discussion, which Mr. Gerdes’ repetitive "recaps" and "just one" demands have made rather boring. Cute girl in your avatar, by the way. |
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June 13th, 2008 | #54 | ||||||
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As to the aerial photo, it's also not my job to prove that these ground-scarring shapes are what they look like and what eyewitness testimonies suggest they were, i.e. mass graves. It is for who makes a claim at odds with these shapes' aspect and the evidence associated to this photograph – i.e. Gerdes, who claims that these shapes are something other than mass graves – to tell us what else they might be. If you can provide a plausible alternative explanation, namely one that is compatible with your "transit camp" theory, the ball may be in my court again. Until then, it is in yours. Quote:
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http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...Figure38.shtml Quote:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...Figure42.shtml http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...Figure43.shtml Quote:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...FigureD1.shtml http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...FigureD2.shtml http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...FigureD3.shtml http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...FigureD4.shtml http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...FigureD5.shtml http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...FigureD6.shtml http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...FigureD7.shtml http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...FigureD8.shtml Quote:
Proof that this is the gas chamber building can be provided by comparing the features visible on the photograph with features described by eyewitnesses, as was done by Alex Bay (see his assessment of Figures 36 and 37 under http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...thcampp4.shtml ). But before I start quoting eyewitness testimonies describing the gas chamber building, I’d like to know what Gerdes would accept as proof that the building shown under http://www.holocaust-history.org/Tre...Figure37.shtml is the gas chamber building. What would be proof for you, and what rules and standards of evidence you can show us is your criterion based on, Mr. Gerdes? This question will from now on be asked every time Gerdes yells for "proof" of this-and-that. |
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June 13th, 2008 | #55 | ||||||||
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Or are you trying to convince your "White" buddies that you’re winning this, hoping they will be dumb enough to fall for your hollow bragging? Quote:
The name of the photographer can be provided. On pages 82/83 of their Treblinka book, Mattogno & Graf write the following (emphasis mine): Quote:
1. Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp. http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5807_1_web.jpg 2. Skeletal remains at the site of the Treblinka extermination camp. http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg 3. Human skeletal remains in the Treblinka camp. http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5810_1_web.jpg 4. Heaps of ashes on the grounds of the Treblinka camp. http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5809_1_web.jpg 5. One of the enormous pits in the Treblinka camp into which the victims' corpses (and later, ashes) were thrown. http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg 6. A heap of ashes in the Treblinka camp. http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5814_1_web.jpg , photographs 2 and 4 show the name of the photographer: "J. Byck, Warszawa", who is obviously identical with the "Jacob Byk" mentioned by Mattogno & Graf. This means that the photographs were taken during the site inspection/investigation carried out between 6 November and 13 November 1945. Photographer Byk/Byck seems to have been part of the investigation team headed by Examining Judge Zdzislaw Lukaszkiewicz, and all above photographs are from the same collection (Ghetto Fighters Museum), so it seems reasonable to assume that photographs 1, 3, 5 and 6 were taken by Mr. Byk/Byck as well. The exact date of the photographs I don’t know, but it must have been between 6 November and 13 November 1945. The collection of photographs under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html includes two photos: http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp40.jpg http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp39.jpg that show exactly the same as the above numbers 4 and 6 and were thus obviously taken by the same photographer, with the same camera and at the same time. Of the other photos under http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html , these three: 7. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp41.jpg 8. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp43.jpg 9. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp42.jpg look to my like they were taken with the same camera, so I would attribute them to Mr. Byk/Byck and the period between 6 and 13 November 1945 as well. This photograph: 10. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp35.jpg may also be from the same source, but it is equally possible that it was taken during the Soviet investigation preceding the Polish one. This photograph: 11. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp44.jpg is obviously from the Soviet investigation, as captioned. The remaining photographs 12. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp46.jpg 13. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp47.jpg 14. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp48.jpg 15. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp49.jpg 16. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp50.jpg 17. http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp51.jpg look like they have been taken with a camera other than that of Mr. Byk/Byck. As the investigators in the last photo look like civilians rather than Red Army soldiers, however, it is possible that these photos are related to a Polish site inspection/investigation other than the one headed by judge Lukaszkiewicz, maybe the inspection/investigation involving Mr. Karol Ogrodowczyk from Warsaw that is mentioned in the Polish newspaper article translated into English under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/588...Treblinka.html . This photo of skulls on the Treblinka site: 18. http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_3.jpg , which is included in that newspaper article, may be related to the Ogrodowczyk inspection/investigation as well. On the other hand, this photo: 19. http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_2.jpg shows the result of a Polish militia action against robbery diggers and must have been part of the corresponding militia report. In my translation of the Polish newspaper article about the "Gold Rush in Treblinka", this photo is addressed in some detail: Quote:
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June 13th, 2008 | #56 | ||||||||||||||
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This question will be asked every time you repeat you senile yelling for "proof", so better start thinking of an answer. Quote:
He should do something about his ignorance, then. Quote:
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Let’s hear, Gerdes. Quote:
I can think of none. |
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June 13th, 2008 | #57 |
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Fist off Roberta, as anyone with half a brain could tell, I'm not saying there was an alleged "lazarett" pit in Treblinka I. Your reading of that just shows your ignorance / stupidity / insanity / desperation etc.
Now back to my questions from posts # 46 & 47 & 50. OK, let's do this again and make it so simple that maybe even a retard like Roberta can understand it: Roberta, for the following photos, give us the name of the photographer, the date the photo was taken and the location in the camp that they were allegedly taken in. That is just a start. When you can do that, we will get into the analysis of the photos. #1 - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5813_1_web.jpg #2 - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5811_1_web.jpg #3 - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_mul...5808_1_web.jpg #4 - http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/excavators2.html #5 - http://holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/i...mass_grave.htm As per your drawings of "mass graves" on the Sept. 1944 aerial photo: Roberta: "As to the aerial photo, it's also not my job to prove that these ground-scarring shapes are what they look like and what eyewitness testimonies suggest they were, i.e. mass graves." Since you obviously can't prove that there are actually 'huge mass graves" under those shapes that you've outlined Roberta, then that photo is being stricken. However, this photo will be added into evidence (for the time being). http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_3.jpg Now Roberta, same as above, for the following photos, give us the name of the photographer, the date the photo(s) were taken and the location in the camp that they were allegedly taken in. That is just a start. When you can do that, we will get into the analysis of the photos. 1 - http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_2.jpg 2 - http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...GoldRush_3.jpg BTW Roberta, tell us how you first became aware of those last two photos. This is real simple Roberta. Just give the information that has been asked, nothing more, nothing less. But please feel free to expound on the last question I asked you. |
June 13th, 2008 | #58 |
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Roberta:
"Actually common sense suggests that the deputy commandant of Treblinka II extermination camp would photograph things inside Treblinka II extermination camp and not a labor camp that he had nothing to do with." The sand / gravel quarry was not "in" the labor camp Treblinka I. But now that you mention it Roberta, If common sense suggests that the deputy commandant of Treblinka II would photograph things inside Treblinka II, then would you please present into evidence all the photos that "common sense" tells us that he would have taken? You know, like the piles of the alleged hundreds and hundreds of thousands of bodies? How about just one photo of just one dead body? Just one Roberta. One. |
June 13th, 2008 | #59 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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Discussed here. Quote:
http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=103 http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=112 Quote:
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If it's true that Wiernik was shot from 50 meters then the soldier would have plenty of time to fix the jam. If someone had shot Wiernik with a gun he would have been wounded. Anyways, you're right that I somewhat picked out bad examples Quote:
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http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.co...es/25_mov.html The branch isn't even dried out yet. Even fresh branches burn great Quote:
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… including members of the camp’s former SS-staff testifying before West German courts, and also according to document showing that hundreds of thousands of people were taken to a place from which only a handful are known to have emerged alive, and from where such a stench of corpses emanated in October 1942 that the Wehrmacht local commander of a town 20 kilometers away complained about it. I don’t see what is wrong with eyewitness and documentary evidence as proof of a crime or other historical event. Aren't mass crimes and other historical events usually proven also if not mainly or solely on the basis of these categories of evidence? Can you show us one large-scale massacre that was reconstructed solely or mainly on the basis of physical evidence? Quote:
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My issue isn't to white wash Germany (Because I don't do that) but I have never seen the methodology recorded of what the Germans did and as you admitted eye witness accounts are faulty. Judging the techniques by modern equipment (Such as what was done with the excavator) seems unreasonable. Until I see a forensic investigation of better quality I will not be convinced. Last edited by psychologicalshock; June 14th, 2008 at 03:08 AM. |
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June 14th, 2008 | #60 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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On the German site http://www.bagger-und-bahnen.de/baumaschinen.htm , as site for excavator fans, you find the following information about cable-operated excavators (my translation): Quote:
[quote=ps]Quote: Sure you aren’t mixing up conclusions regarding the Treblinka I labor camp with conclusions regarding the Treblinka II extermination camp? No because of a simple conclusion - Treblinka II was bombed. The Polack found uncovered bones and bodies. Treblinka II was bombed, thus the Polack was investigating Treblinka II and concluded that 50,000 died there.[quote] Let’s look at what Mattogno & Graf wrote in their Treblinka book, page 89: Quote:
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The author of the above quote comes across as somewhat ignorant in what concerns the body of eyewitness testimony to the Treblinka mass killings, by the way. If he had read Arad’s book, where the author also quotes or refers to depositions by perpetrators on trial before West German courts as well as documentary evidence, he might not have written this nonsense about Arad having stated that "there is only survivor testimony". It also isn't doesn't show proper research to make a fuss about what one historian is supposed to have stated when there are also other historians, like Prof. Browning with his report on the documentary and eyewitness evidence to the implementation of the "Final Solution" including the camps of Aktion Reinhard(t), see under http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.co...ense/browning/ . Browning identified five categories of eyewitness testimony: - German visitors of the camps - Germans who were stationed at Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka - Ukrainian guards - Poles in the villages around these camps - Jewish survivors He also mentions documentary evidence to what was going on at these camps, such as the following: Quote:
Please provide that incompetent bungler’s name and the link to his writing. Quote:
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Casual witnesses who only got close to the gas chamber building on occasion if at all, on the other hand, may have been mistaken about a lot of details. Quote:
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I’m looking forward to your demonstration that Gerdes’ "just one" stuff is not just a cheap publicity trick for suckers. Gerdes doesn’t seem able to provide that demonstration. Quote:
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Anyway, please keep up the discussion. Talking to you is far more interesting than talking to Gerdes, the repetitive bore (whose latest posts I will address later, just so as not to offend the poor fellow by ignoring them). |
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