#1 Ukraine War thread (and Russia and Putin)

[Gifu]

This conflict confuses me greatly. I don't see either side being "the good guys," which I suppose is the correct understanding in most situations, since terms like "good" and "evil" are ridiculous to begin with. There's so much information and misinformation about Ukraine on the Internet that it's impossible to draw accurate, factual conclusions. I see bad things said about the "nationalists" and also of the "separatists." Being close to Russia, I know what Russians are like, so it's also hard for me to take the Russian side on this issue.

[Bobby Bandanza]

Asher Krichevsky is the Chief Rabbi of the Omsk Region. He studied in Israel and New York, and did his practical training in Argentina before being ordained in Germany. At the invitation of the Omsk region’s Jewish community, he was appointed by the Chief Rabbi of Russia, Berel Lazar. He is a member of the Conference of European Rabbis, the Rabbinical Council of the Federation of Jewish Communities in Russia, and the Committee of Ambassadors of the Lubavitcher Rebbe in the CIS; he is also a member of the Governor of Omsk's consultative committee on inter-ethnic and inter-confessional relations. He chose to work in Russia on the advice of his grandfather, the Honorary Israeli Consul in the Russian Federation; Siberia was his own choice, although he was offered Sochi, where, as a southerner, the climate would have suited him better. But there are more Jews in Siberia, and so more people needing his help.

In 2003, Asher Krichevsky set up a charitable foundation to help the needy, irrespective of their religion – the many who lost everything after the 2011 fire in Bryansk, for example, or the flood in the Russian Far East in 2013. And it was on his initiative that the Omsk regional authorities built a Jewish School, the dream for many years of the Or Khadash community.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-rus...or-israeli-spy

[M. Issig]

Look at all that fruit salad! He must be a gen-u-wine war hero.

Originally Posted by Serbian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW5HV69LKUs

[M. Issig]

Originally Posted by Gifu

This conflict confuses me greatly. I don't see either side being "the good guys," which I suppose is the correct understanding in most situations, since terms like "good" and "evil" are ridiculous to begin with. There's so much information and misinformation about Ukraine on the Internet that it's impossible to draw accurate, factual conclusions. I see bad things said about the "nationalists" and also of the "separatists." Being close to Russia, I know what Russians are like, so it's also hard for me to take the Russian side on this issue.

I understand your reluctance to take the Russian side, particularly when Putin continues to publicly aggrandize the Great Patriotic War, attempting to glorify the Red Army war criminals.

The presence of outright communists like Zakharchenko and others in the leadership of the pro-Russian separatists is also sufficient cause to adopt an attitude of indifference.

Of course, as I have recently explained, the ranks of the junta army are brimming with mass-murdering bandits who bear no resemblance whatsoever to "nazi" soldiers.

The situation makes it difficult to support either side.

So, who or what do I advocate and why? I advocate the defeat of the Judeo-globalist swine in Kiev and the West and the Jewish war lords called oligarchs; because Jews and their companions have repeatedly proven themselves the primary enemies of humanity.

[Bobby Bandanza]

Voting on resolutions calling for sanctions against Russia in the European Parliament this past summer produced a decisive victory for the ‘yes’ votes. 13% voted 'no', with another 10% abstaining or absent, so one can surmise that opposition to the resolutions approached 20%, and has probably grown since then.
By comparison if a similar vote were held in the US Congress, it is unlikely more than 5 Representatives, or 1%, would stand up against the resolution and there would be no abstentions.

http://russia-insider.com/en/germany...ogressive_left

[zoomcopter]

Originally Posted by M. Issig

I advocate the defeat of the Judeo-globalist swine in Kiev and the West and the Jewish war lords called oligarchs. Because Jews and their companions have repeatedly proven themselves the primary enemies of humanity.

The first step in any battle is to correctly identify the enemy and you have done so.

[zoomcopter]

Originally Posted by Gifu

Being close to Russia, I know what Russians are like, so it's also hard for me to take the Russian side on this issue.

Russians have many faults, but they are of our own tribe, whereas, the Jews hail from an alien tribe which seeks our racial destruction.

[zoomcopter]

Originally Posted by Ray Allan

You can see that clownish ZOGbot ratfuck visibly squirming as Mr. Lee presses his line of questioning. Do these military morons along with their civilian counterparts actually believe all the propaganda they spout? Wouldn't be surprised if the Pentagon revokes Matt Lee's press pass after this.

To paraphase George W. (mission accomplished) Bush, "You're either with us or against us" Mr Lee is using logic to expose the irrational thinking process of the zogbot, therefore, he is an enemy of zionist groupthink.


Mr Lee shouldn't ask to be embedded with a combat group anytime soon...or he may suffer a Tillman accident.

[Serbian]

Originally Posted by Bobby Bandanza

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-rus...or-israeli-spy

The largest group of progressives are the Greens, and they have been warmongering against Russia since the start of this US/EU instigated crisis in former Ukraine.

Of course the WS article lists the reason behind the Green's stance as being 'German Imperialism' instead of Jewish Globalism but the facts about the Greens are there.

German Green Party campaigns for war
By Christoph Dreier
22 March 2014

The German government’s confrontational approach towards Russia is supported by all parties represented in the federal parliament. But none are doing so as aggressively and hysterically as the Greens.

Fifteen years ago, the Greens jointly oversaw the first foreign deployment of the German army since World War II in NATO’s war against Yugoslavia. Now they are supporting fascist forces in Ukraine and foaming with war propaganda against Russia. On the television programme “Menschen bei Maischberger” there was virtually nothing to differentiate Green Party politician Werner Schulz from the president of the revanchist League of Exiles (BdV) Erika Steinbach on this issue.

Schulz described Russian President Vladimir Putin as a “criminal,” “aggressor,” and “war-monger,” who represented an “expansionist nationalism.” Because Putin was an “unscrupulous power politician,” the situation was more dangerous today than in the Cold War.

Schulz received special praise from Steinbach when he questioned the legitimacy of Russia’s claim to Crimea by referring to the deportation of Crimea’s Tatars under the Stalinist regime 70 years ago as the cause of ethnic Russians being in the majority. It was not actually a state which broke apart when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, but Europe’s last colonial empire had fallen, according to Schulz. Putin’s new colonialism had to be countered by the eastward expansion of the NATO alliance.

In an interview with Deutsche Welle at the beginning of March, Schulz explicitly spoke out in favour of using military threats over the Ukraine conflict. “Ultimately, the only really effective method is the guarantee of assistance,” the European Parliament deputy said. “It is fully in conformity with international law that these countries are given a guarantee that their territorial integrity will be maintained. And this will also warn Russia of its limits.”

Whenever voices are raised in the German media and by politicians, who, while supporting the aims of German imperialism, call for diplomatic activity or verbal de-escalation, Green Party propagandists respond with extreme aggression.

When former social democratic Chancellor Gerhard Schröder relativized Russia’s actions in Crimea by explaining that he had also violated international law as German Chancellor during the Yugoslavia war, Green Party lead candidate for the European elections Rebecca Harms put a motion to the European Parliament, in all seriousness, to ban Schröder from speaking.

In their support for the German government’s confrontational course towards Russia, the Greens have no qualms about defending the fascist party Svoboda, whose sister party in Germany, the NPD, the Greens wish to ban. Svoboda formed part of the shock troops who contributed to the escalation of violence on the Maidan, and is represented in the new government, which is recognised by the German government, with six cabinet members and three ministers.

Green Party chairwoman Katrin Göring-Eckhardt defended Svoboda during a recent debate in the German parliament in an angry speech. The call from Svoboda leader Oleg Tyagnibok, “grab your arms, fight the Russkies, the Germans, the yids and other undesirables,” was already 10 years old and therefore could not help in understanding the current situation, claimed Göring-Eckhardt. Instead one had to ask, “Why was it that right-wing populists were invited from across Europe to monitor the vote in Crimea?”

Svoboda’s ministers did not have the upper hand in the Ukrainian government, she went on. Therefore there was no reason to take action. “Democracy and freedom in the Ukrainian constitution would certainly be over in that case.”

This defence of, and downplaying of fascists is in direct contradiction with the Greens’ own sources. In November, Kyryl Savin, head in Kiev of the Heinrich Böll foundation—the Greens’ think tank—commented: “unfortunately the right and right-wing radicals dominated the rhetoric among the protesters.” At the same time, according to Savin, “many of our partners in civil society” had taken part in the demonstrations.

The foundation was actively involved in the organisation of the demonstrations from the beginning. Leading Green politicians like Harms and parliamentary deputy Marieluise Beck travelled to Kiev on numerous occasions to participate in the Maidan protests and to exercise influence. The permanent presence of Svoboda leader Tyagnibok, who was hailed by leading representatives from the EU, and the German and US governments, was of no concern to them. Just this week the Heinrich Boll foundation hosted a discussion between billionaire speculator George Soros and former Green Party minister Joschka Fischer, who have declared their unanimity on all major questions regarding developments in Ukraine—in particular their support for the aggressive policy of the German government against Russia.

The cooperation with fascists and calls for war with Russia are the sharpest expressions to date of the rightward evolution of the Greens. In 1998, the former pacifists played a key role in mobilising their petty-bourgeois followers in support of the first intervention by the German army since the Second World War. At that time it was foreign minister Fischer who argued for war on the basis of preventing a repeat of Auschwitz. Since then the Greens have developed into the party that is the most aggressive advocate of military intervention.

During their time in government, they also supported the colonial campaign against Afghanistan. In the Libyan war, the Greens attacked the then Christian Democratic Union/Free Democratic Party government for not participating in the bombardment of the country. Last year, they were the strongest advocates of military intervention in Syria.

This militarist foreign policy was connected from the outset with massive attacks on the working class in Germany. The association agreement with the EU, which the German government sought to enforce with the overthrow of Yanukovych, also plans major attacks on the wages and living standards of Ukrainian workers.

The Greens’ ruthless advocacy of the interests of German imperialism arises from the social and political roots of the party. More than any other, the Greens represent a privileged layer of the middle class and are extremely hostile to the demands of working people.

Figures like Schulz and Göring-Eckhardt played a central role in the restoration of capitalism in the GDR (East Germany). Both of them joined citizens’ movements in 1989 which would later come together to form Bündnis 90 (Alliance 90). Schulz sat personally at the round table discussions as a representative of the New Forum, collaborating closely with the Stalinist state party (SED) to prepare reunification and introduce capitalist property relations.

Their contempt for the social achievements of the working class in the GDR, expressed by Schulz’s description of the Soviet Union as a supposed colonial power, was coupled with the desire for career advancement in a reunified Germany. Bündnis 90 ultimately brought those elements of the movement together which emerged as the most hostile to the interests of the working class.

In 1993, they merged with the west German Greens, who for their part were representatives of a social layer which, after briefly flirting with Stalinism in its Maoist form in the 1970s, retained only its hatred of the working class while moving continuously to the right as its wealth grew.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014.../germ-m22.html

[Serbian]

Originally Posted by Gifu

This conflict confuses me greatly. I don't see either side being "the good guys," which I suppose is the correct understanding in most situations, since terms like "good" and "evil" are ridiculous to begin with. There's so much information and misinformation about Ukraine on the Internet that it's impossible to draw accurate, factual conclusions. I see bad things said about the "nationalists" and also of the "separatists." Being close to Russia, I know what Russians are like, so it's also hard for me to take the Russian side on this issue.

Maybe you should just stick to MSM, they will tell you all you need to know about Russia/Ukraine. You could give the NYT WSJ and CNN a try. Then there's Fox BBC DW etc, all good sources of unbiased and credible info.

[Serbian]

Originally Posted by M. Issig

The presence of outright communists like Zakharchenko and others in the leadership of the pro-Russian separatists is also sufficient cause to adopt an attitude of indifference.

.

It's precisely these types allied with Zaharcenko who are most willing to compromise with the oligarchs and junta. A real anti communist Russian nationalist fighting for Novorossiya is not.

[M. Issig]

Originally Posted by M. Issig

The presence of outright communists like Zakharchenko and others in the leadership of the pro-Russian separatists is also sufficient cause to adopt an attitude of indifference.

Originally Posted by Serbian

It's precisely these types allied with Zaharcenko who are most willing to compromise with the oligarchs and junta. A real anti communist Russian nationalist fighting for Novorossiya is not.

That was the implication.

[Ian Smith son]

The European Union Isn’t Going To Bail Out Ukraine

Source : Forbes.com - The European Union has had a pretty rough run over the past seven years. Economically, things are simply catastrophic. The Eurozone is not only experiencing an output slump that is even worse than the great depression, it is also teetering dangerously close to outright deflation. Unemployment remains persistently high everywhere except Germany: it is still above 25% in both Greece and Spain, and above 10% in Portugal, Italy, and France. The forecasts are hardly encouraging, with expectations of little or no growth in 2014 and an exceedingly modest rebound predicted for 2015. The situation is so desperate and hopeless that respected economists like Tyler Cowen have started to compare the performance of the more sclerotic European economies with the de-industrialization of 19th century India.
http://www.realpolitik.tv/2014/10/th...l-out-ukraine/

[zoomcopter]

Originally Posted by Ian Smith son

The European Union Isn’t Going To Bail Out Ukraine

You'd think that, at very least, the EU and America would pay the way oversdue Gazprom bill, to Russia, with the brutal old man winter coming on....especially since they financed the "rebellion" in the first place, but I guess that would be expecting too much from the Jews. Afterall, Lazar Kaganovitch let millions freeze in the brutal winter of 1932-33....

[Serbian]

If true it is bad news for Novorossiya

Ukraine says Russia has agreed to supply gas

The Associated Press 3:44 p.m. EDT October 19, 2014

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — The Ukrainian president has said his country has reached an agreement with Russia on supplies of natural gas for the winter.

When Russia cut off gas supplies to Ukraine in June over unpaid bills, it raised the risk that Ukraine would be left without heating during the coldest months of the year. It also raised fears that Russia could cut off flows to Europe if Ukraine began siphoning off gas from the pipelines crossing its territory, as has happened during past gas disputes.

President Petro Poroshenko said in a television interview late Saturday that Russia has agreed to supply Ukraine with gas through March 31 at a price of $385 per 1,000 cubic meters.

"I can say that Ukraine will have gas, Ukraine will have heating," he said.

Poroshenko said he expected the deal to be signed during the next round of European Union-mediated gas talks, to be held Tuesday in Brussels.

Following Europe-brokered talks in Italy on Friday, Poroshenko and Russian President Vladimir Putin reported progress on both a definitive peace settlement in eastern Ukraine and on settling the gas dispute.

Alexei Miller, the CEO of the Russian state gas company Gazprom, said the leaders agreed that Ukraine would pay back $3.1 billion by the end of the year. It was not clear, however, where Ukraine would get the money.

Poroshenko said in the interview that his government was still figuring out how to cover the debts of Ukrainian state gas company Naftogaz, but that it has several possible options, including financing from the International Monetary Fund.

The deal Poroshenko described appears to be only a short-term solution, however. He said Ukraine still insists that the gas price should be only $325 in the summer, while Russia wants a fixed price.

There was no immediate comment from the Russian government or Gazprom to Poroshenko's announcement.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...-gas/17574253/

[Serbian]

11 hour ago

Joint charity concert of Right sector and Jewish community In Odessa to help battalions



http://liveuamap.com/en/2014/19-octo...tor-and-jewish

Has Greg Johnson made a personal donation to Right Sector yet? Or maybe an official one in the name of CC.

I hear that Tom 'US government brought peace to Bosnia and should intervene more in Ukraine' Sunic is also a big fan.

[Serbian]

Anne Applebaum@anneapplebaum · 9 hrs9 hours ago

don't accept Putin's version of history - NATO expansion gave 90 million people 20 years of peace http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...umphalism.html …



Anne Applebaum@anneapplebaum · 14 hrs14 hours ago

Can't imagine a Chinese or Indian leader behaving as Putin did in Milan. Bad manners don't make you important
http://nyti.ms/ZyGUo5



Anne Applebaum retweeted

Jacob Weisberg@jacobwe · Oct 18

Don’t Accept Putin’s Version of History by @anneapplebaum http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._all_dt_tw_top … via @slate



Anne Applebaum retweeted

Fareed Zakaria@FareedZakaria · Oct 18

"The myth of Russian humiliation": a powerful piece from @anneapplebaum http://wapo.st/1plkGgv




Anne Applebaum@anneapplebaum · Oct 17

No, revisionists: we didn't humiliate Russia for 20 years, we indulged Russia. That was our great mistake. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...773_story.html …




Anne Applebaum@anneapplebaum · Oct 16

Russia says sanctions don't hurt - but trying very hard to break them, even sowing discord between EU and US http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/ar...ampaign=buffer …

[Serbian]

Jamie Kirchick retweeted

Erik Brattberg@ErikBrattberg · 14 hrs14 hours ago

Goal of Russia is to scare Sweden into keeping away from NATO. The natural response to this and other incidents should be the very opposite.


Jamie Kirchick retweeted

Maxim Eristavi@MaximEristavi · Oct 15

Crimea’s Gay Community Moves Out as Russian Homophobia Sets In
A must-read by @shustry
Tragic
http://time.com/3482205/crimea-gay-c...an-homophobia/ …



Jamie Kirchick@jkirchick · Oct 9

Congrats to great land of Estonia for its civil partnership law signed by @IlvesToomas,who last year gave me tips on gay-friendly Tallinn



Jamie Kirchick retweeted

Nate Schenkkan@nateschenkkan · Oct 9

Estonia legalizes same-sex partnerships on same day Kyrgyzstan gets ready to pass "homosexual propaganda" law.



Jamie Kirchick retweeted

Kyle W. Orton@KyleWOrton · Oct 8

Abby Martin says @jkirchick is a "total psychotic neocon…trying to resurrect the Cold War." | My people! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...DA&app=desktop …

[Sorley]

Maxim Eristavi@MaximEristavi · Oct 15

Crimea’s Gay Community Moves Out as Russian Homophobia Sets In
A must-read by @shustry
Tragic
http://time.com/3482205/crimea-gay-c...an-homophobia/ …

Lucky bastards...

[procopius]

Originally Posted by Serbian

Crimea’s Gay Community Moves Out as Russian Homophobia Sets In
A must-read by @shustry
Tragic
http://time.com/3482205/crimea-gay-c...an-homophobia/ …

Dear God, what will Crimea do without their Gay Community?