Vanguard News Network
VNN Media
VNN Digital Library
VNN Reader Mail
VNN Broadcasts

Old December 21st, 2010 #61
Justin
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Saratoga, WY
Posts: 1,710
Default

Whoever was fighting with Ray about the "3 shots not killing someone? That's pretty unbelievable" thing, look on Liveleak.com. They have videos of taliban guys getting shot with 2-3 3 round bursts from ARs in 5.56 and they only drop to a knee at most before the whole squad unloads on them. I'm not saying that will ALWAYS happen, but it's definitely noteworthy that it CAN happen.

Ray clearly didn't mean only adrenaline but that if the spinal cord is severed the person physically CAN NOT continue fighting. It's not a matter of willpower or adrenaline if that happens.

And my opinion is stick with the AK for extreme close range(even though I hate AKs with a passion) and get a different gun chambered for 5.56(ARs suck, get an FN SCAR or Bushmaster ACR) if you're going to be shooting 100-150yds, and something bigger for anything longer range. Everyone seems to have their own favorite when it comes to "sniper" rifles.(.50BMG for non-human targets, .308, .416, or .408 for human targets are generally the best.)
 
Old December 21st, 2010 #62
Simo Häyhä
Senior Member
 
Simo Häyhä's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 860
Simo Häyhä
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Healey View Post
Adversary wearing body armor? Now you need something like a 7.62x51. (.308). That's going to put a hurt on 'em. Aim for the pelvis. Not ctr of mass. The plvis is where the center of gravity is - it moves last. If a pelvic hit doesn't kill him - just shoot him again. LOL
Good luck hitting something as small as a human pelvis at 200+yds; it would already be pretty difficult if the target was sitting still, nevermind the fact that he'll be much probably moving.
 
Old December 21st, 2010 #63
AussieWN
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,349
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Whoever was fighting with Ray about the "3 shots not killing someone? That's pretty unbelievable" thing, look on Liveleak.com. They have videos of taliban guys getting shot with 2-3 3 round bursts from ARs in 5.56 and they only drop to a knee at most before the whole squad unloads on them. I'm not saying that will ALWAYS happen, but it's definitely noteworthy that it CAN happen.

Ray clearly didn't mean only adrenaline but that if the spinal cord is severed the person physically CAN NOT continue fighting. It's not a matter of willpower or adrenaline if that happens.

And my opinion is stick with the AK for extreme close range(even though I hate AKs with a passion) and get a different gun chambered for 5.56(ARs suck, get an FN SCAR or Bushmaster ACR) if you're going to be shooting 100-150yds, and something bigger for anything longer range. Everyone seems to have their own favorite when it comes to "sniper" rifles.(.50BMG for non-human targets, .308, .416, or .408 for human targets are generally the best.)
The Lapua .338 is the smallest round I would use if firing at a person wearing body armour. There are to many stories of people being shot with 5.56 and not going down to even think about using it in a real firefight. Spraying a target with bullets is great in the movies but in REAL LIFE situations...lol..it doesn`t mean shit. I have relatives that proudly show their scars caused by 5.56mm ammo and they were not wearing body armour. If your going to hit someone. Hit them with something that will take them down. As for the topic AR versus AK ...An AK can survive all kinds of treatment..drop it, it still works..soak it in water or mud..it still works...Your only concern when chooosing a battle rifle is..when i need it to do the job..will it work..The AK has proven itself as idiot proof, its dependable
 
Old December 21st, 2010 #64
ray bateson
baппed
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: A:\
Posts: 3,367
ray bateson
Default

Guys, remember while you're discussing anti-ballistic armor, there are levels. Each level representing a resistance up to certain types, or 'powers', of ammunition.

Soft armor is made of materials such as kevlar, spectra, or other aramid fabrics, and ranging in levels of protection from I to IIIA, with IIIA being the highest rated of the soft armors. Beyond this is 'hard' armor.

Hard armor includes steel, ceramic or other suitable non-flexible materials, and comes in two levels: III and IV.

Know yer shit, you'll come better prepared.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
  • Police body armors covered by this standard are classified into seven types, by level of ballistic protection performance.1 The classification of an armor panel that provides two or more levels of ballistic protection at different locations on the ballistic panel shall be that of the minimum ballistic protection provided at any location on the panel.

    As of 1987, ballistic-resistant body armor suitable for routine full-time wear throughout an entire shift of duty is available in types I, II-A, and to a limited extent type II (depending largely upon the climate) which will provide protection from common handgun threats. Type III-A, which will provide protection from 9 mm submachine guns and 44 Magnum handguns using the test rounds, and types III and IV, which will protect against high-powered rifles, are normally considered to be special purpose armor most appropriate for use during tactical operations. See appendix A.

    2.1 Type I (22 LR; 38 Special)

    This armor protects against 22 Long Rifle High Velocity lead bullets, with nominal masses of 2.6 g (40 gr) impacting at a velocity of 320 m (1050 ft) per second or less, and 38 Special round nose lead bullets, with nominal masses of 10.2 g (158 gr) impacting at a velocity of 259 m (850 ft) per second or less. It also provides protection against most handgun rounds in calibers 25 and 32.

    2.2 Type II-A (Lower Velocity 357 Magnum; 9 mm)

    This armor protects against 357 Magnum jacketed soft point bullets, with nominal masses of 10.2 g (158 gr) impacting at a velocity of 381 m (1250 ft) per second or less, and 9 mm full metal jacketed bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr) impacting at a velocity of 332 m (1090 ft) per second or less. It also provides protection against threats such as 45 Auto., 38 Special +P and some other factory loads in caliber 357 Magnum and 9 mm, as well as the threats mentioned in section 2.1.

    1 The ballistic threat posed by a bullet depends, among other things, on its composition, shape, caliber, mass, angle of incidence, and impact velocity. Because of the wide variety of cartridges available in a given caliber, and because of the existence of hand loads, armors that will defeat a standard test round may not defeat other loadings in the same caliber. For example, an armor that prevents penetration by a 357 Magnum test round may or may not defeat a 357 Magnum round with higher velocity. In general, an armor that defeats a given lead bullet may not resist penetration by other rounds of the same caliber of different construction or configuration. The test ammunition specified in this standard represent common threats to law enforcement officers.

    2.3 Type II (Higher Velocity 357 Magnum; 9 mm)

    This armor protects against 357 Magnum jacketed soft point bullets, with nominal masses of 10.2 g (158 gr) impacting at a velocity of 425 m (1395 ft) per second or less, and 9 mm full jacketed bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr) impacting at a velocity of 358 m (1175 ft) per second or less. It also provides protection against most other factory loads in caliber 357 Magnum and 9 mm, as well as the threats mentioned in sections 2.1 and 2.2.

    2.4 Type III-A (44 Magnum; Submachine Gun 9 mm)

    This armor protects against 44 Magnum, lead semi-wadcutter bullets with gas checks, nominal masses of 15.55 g (240 gr) and impacting at a velocity of 426 m (1400 ft) per second or less, and 9 mm full metal jacketed bullets, with nominal masses of 8.0 g (124 gr) impacting at a velocity of 426 m (1400 ft) per second or less. It also provides protection against most handgun threats, as well as the threats mentioned in sections 2.1 through 2.3.

    2.5 Type III ( High-Powered Rifle)

    This armor protects against 7.62 mm full metal jacketed bullets (U.S. military designation M80), with nominal masses of 9.7 g (150 gr) impacting at a velocity of 838 m (2750 ft) per second or less. It also provides protection against threats such as 223 Remington (5.56 mm FMJ), 30 Carbine FMJ, and 12 gauge rifled slug, as well as the threats mentioned in sections 2.1 through 2.4.

    2.6 Type IV (Armor-Piercing Rifle)

    This armor protects against 30 caliber armor-piercing bullets (U.S. military designation APM2), with nominal masses of 10.8 g (166 gr) impacting at a velocity of 868 m (2850 ft) per second or less. It also provides at least single hit protection against the threats mentioned in sections 2.1 through 2.5.

    2.7 Special Type

    A purchaser having a special requirement for a level of protection other than one of the above standard threat levels should specify the exact test rounds and minimum impact velocities to be used, and indicate that this standard shall govern in all other respects.
 
Old December 21st, 2010 #65
Hugh
Holorep survivor
 
Hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The wild frontier
Posts: 4,850
Hugh
Default

What matters is under what circumstances and why you would be using it.
For self defence, neither are suitable, as the courts will nail you for using either of them.

The vast majority of murders, attempted murders and assaults GBH and otherwise, in civilian life, are by friends and family in and around the home under the influence of drugs or liquor.

Jewish judges and Aztec prosecutors don't assume that Whites with assault rifles are victims, especially if your opponent didn't have one.

If a home invasion occurs, they will view you as an evil white racist defying the state who murdered helpless Jefferson Washington who was going to be a brain surgeon, his cousin Abraham Abdul Mohammed who was a community organiser supporting his sick mother, and that you attacked their 5 companions whilst they were innocently looking for a glass of water in your fridge at 2am.

Then they will state that you used an "assault rifle" whilst the jury of homos, drunks, radical community organisers and Jewish lesbian university lecturers gasps, and decide you with an assault rifle were the attacker, and right there you will see the gates of hell opening in front of you.

The shotgun is the only reliable self defence weapon, courts grudgingly accept it as a defensive weapon, and even with one, it will even then often be necessary to fire several shots at each of your attackers, even with slugs.

There should be only one version of what happened.
Don't be selfish and stingy with ammunition, share as many of your rounds with your attackers as you can.
Sharing is caring.

If preparing for say a meltdown, if you want to live, focus more upon building up a group.
The group itself is the weapon, not the firearms, but use an AK. If not, well then it doesn't really matter.

For attack, unless hitting the target repeatedly which only happens if part of a group spraying out rounds, both AR and AK are pretty useless.

Look in any military or ghetto hospital how many people survive being shot, many who survived killed the ones who shot them themselves personally after they had been shot, or saw them die.

Look at any car accident, how much damage gets done, how many and deep the wounds are, and the person survives, and is still functional, and that's when they're usually sober, not high on drugs. Will your round break an arm or leg? So what?

Just go and sit in any hospital emergency room for a while, watching, and see what people survive.

Soldiers are considered expendable because they die out of sight, and rarely properly armed for the situation. Don't copy soldiers.

If planning for general civil unrest, use the same as what the local SWAT teams and riot police use, adn join the reserves so you know what to do.

SAS weapons:



Cops are like precious flowers to the state, as the state depends upon them to protect the state, so the state arms them properly, and usually looks after them.

For combat, if the AR was better, terrs would choose it given the chance, and regular troops wouldn't abandon it and choose an AK.
Everyone in combat prefers the AK given the choice.
Usually close combat ends with butt hitting, bayonet stabbing, throwing onto the ground and kicking and shooting repeatedly.

For operations in urban terrain, air attack, booby traps, explosives, grenades, mines, fire and smoke are the usual attack weapons. Bullets are for if you get lucky and meet someone who hesitates. If they're in your range, you're in their range.

The hydrostatic shock of the round hitting the attacker will never be more than the recoil you feel when firing, usually less.
To knock an attacker down, the recoil would need to knock the shooter back or down.
What does happen is that they turn away, slip or lose their balance, and then fall.

The 5.56 was chosen so as to wound the enemy repeatedly, and thus slow down the enemy, deplete their medical resources, inflict psychological damage, and lower morale.
It also then necessitated the enemy casevaccing wounded, which could give you an idea of where their bases were, how far away, etc.

That's why armies armed with 5.56 avoid close combat, wear personal armour, rely on air attacks, and spray and pray.Usually they get shot in the face or shoulders, and survive.
Snipers use a .50 for a reason.
Ak's are popular for a reason.

If you really want to prepare for a meltdown, go to a combat shooting range see for yourself what various rounds can actually do under simulated combat situations.

Stand up a 70 kilo bag of sand, and shoot into it, and see the knockdown power of your rounds.
Ask any hunter if deer when shot fall down immediately, or for how long afterwards they survive.

Then assume the target is a vital organ.
Targets that matter, heart and liver, or face, exist in an area the size of an A5 piece of paper, so that should be the total size of the target, at a 45 degree angle.
In front of the target put a piece of meat half a foot to a foot thick.
Put a one inch pine board in front of the meat to simulate bone.
In front of the board, put a piece of heavy shirt and a piece of heavy jacket material.
Your round needs to penetrate clothing, board, meat and then hit the target.

To simulate your likely situation, do pushups till muscle failure, so you're sweating, breathless and shaking.
Then swing the target violently from side to side.
To simulate actual combat shooting, you should swing three or four such targets violently together simultaneously, and from 10 metres away give yourself one shot per target, all swinging, and hit all targets within 1 to 2 seconds.

If you didn't hit every target at least once, you will have been killed.
If your rounds don't penetrate to every target, it will not even reach a vital organ, and you will have been killed, your enemy will have aimed and fired.
A second can be a long time.

There's a 99.99% percent chance of your being killed if they are a group, and you are alone.

If you're thinking of a meltdown, it will almost never happen you even see them when they fire on you.

It will never happen as they hide behind things, which is why you need an AK to shoot through their cover, but for sake of illustration a pack of terrs running at full speed from different angles bobbing and weaving can easily cover 5 to 10 metres per second, shooting at you as they come, and begin stabbing you when they arrive. Thus during your practice shoot you may want to also drop to the ground and roll over building rubble during your one second window of opportunity, whilst throwing sand in your face, firing your one shot per target. Often when soldiers drop to the ground, they injure their knees shoulders and/or elbows so badly, they drop their weapons.

Bearing in mind that with a real body, the round would hit someone in motion, clothing, bone, usually hit at an angle not straight on like on a range, and will most likely strike an arm or hand and not even hit the body.

Even if shot straight through the heart, they are still mobile and functional for several seconds afterwards, and will reach you, and in several seconds can still kill you, even with no heart.
There will almost never be only one of them, and they will be upon you, and your rifle will be useless.

That's the reality of close quarter combat, and why if alone you will be killed, if you're lucky.

Depending who your opponent is, especially if they're black, it may be better to shoot yourself if you're unable to continue firing.
Black terrs do things to prisoners that make medics and doctors finding them afterwards vomit.

That's why even the average sniper almost never operates alone, and why soldiers and police are taught to always move, attack and defend in a group. Single men using single weapons in close quarter combat are usually killed or wounded at the very least. Attackers are almost never alone, and need to be hit repeatedly for it to matter.

In a real situation, you will probably be in your car, have your hands full with shopping bags, be working on the car or gardening, or have just woken up or been surprised, and not have it on you.

If you do, you'll not know what is going on, be hyperventilating, shaking, unsure whether to shoot or not with thoughts of court cases flying through your head, where's your family, the targets will be bobbing and weaving, there will usually be three or four of them 2 to 5 metres away from you, they will be armed, often high, usually far fitter and stronger than you, and they will be physically upon you.
If in your house, some will go for you, others for your family, and you will have tunnel vision.

Very few people hit hard with a stick even fall down, and bullets have far less force.
Repeated hits with a stick are going to be more effective than most bullets, which don't penetrate deep enough to matter.
Sticks don't work in very close combat ie within inches unless you are highly trained, and your attackers will be.
At best, rather than have tonfas and batons etc, keep and use a maglite on your belt rather. They're stronger and heavier than most sticks, and whatever you can do with a stick, you can do with a maglite.

A small fist sized maglite can be useful, but you won't have space to strike sideways or build up momentum, and if you stab them with it, it will in all likelihood slide through your sweating hand, get dropped or they will grab it and take it from you.

The best and in fact only useful weapon for defence against criminals, and which can be kept on you at all times everywhere, is a pair of handcuffs, which can be used from a car, seated, in any position, under any circumstances.
Slip your left hand through the loop before you even go for your gun, and you can stab right into them, break, cut and rip them to pieces, smash bone , still grab as well, and won't injure your own hands.
It requires no space, and no more training to throw a punch.
Take that same target from earlier, and punch the hinge of your handcuffs hard into it, and twist. If training, protect the base of your palm.
Seeing is believing.

Bear in mind, the average human can cover 100 metres in 15 to 20 seconds with ease.
Most gunshots hit the first time at 5 metres or less, once.

Very few people die directly from gunshot wounds.
If they die soon after, it's usually from injuries if they should fall and not save themselves, blood loss and shock.
Those with weak hearts usually have heart attacks. Other than that, it's usually bloodpoisoning/infection/organ failure several days afterwards.

Most people who have been shot, if bleeding and shock are handled immediately, will survive if they have expert medical care within an hour.
The same applies to your attacker.

Guns don't have the impact that people think, especially on hardened criminals high on drugs and booze, so don't depend on them.
Many blacks are so infected with diseases, just getting their blood on you can kill you with disease.
Rather avoid such situations, which is usually easy to do if you stay sober, and avoid drunks and blacks.

Put a couple door wedges under each of your external doors at night, make sure you have a strong security gate over all external doors, and across the passage to your rooms, and that all your windows have burgalr proofing, with retractable bars over main windows.

Have a safe room, with a solid metal door, and a security gate with a slam lock, and a fire extinguisher, first aid, weapons and cellphones in it.

Stopping their attack is only the beginning.

Never ever ever say you fired to wound or kill, that will be distorted and you will be found guilty more than likely.

You were in fear of your and your families lives, and you fired to stop the attack.
Just stick with that you fired to "stop the attack."
If you say you fired to wound, well then, you obviously were in control and felt able to wound, so killing them was not necessary, yet you killed them.
If you say you fired to kill, then that was premeditated.
You fired to stop the attack.
If you do shoot, shut up.
Don't speak to anyone.

You can bet the police and later the courts will be furious that you defended yourself instead of relying on the state to defend you, will interview folks around you, and if they say how you lit up a smoke, and cracked jokes about whacking that sucker, well...

Don't lie.
Go inside your home, stay inside, get a lawyer, and shut up.
You don't go to prison for what you didn't say.
If you do, it will be for less than what you did say.
A contempt of court blah blah blah is not the same as murder.
__________________
Secede. Control taxbases/municipalities. Use boycotts, divestment, sanctions, strikes.
http://www.aeinstein.org/wp-content/...d-Jan-2015.pdf
https://canvasopedia.org/wp-content/...Points-web.pdf
 
Old December 21st, 2010 #66
Evan Heathcliff
Is it good for Whites?
 
Evan Heathcliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Last days of the Kwan empire
Posts: 669
Evan Heathcliff
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
The best and in fact only useful weapon for defence against criminals, and which can be kept on you at all times everywhere, is a pair of handcuffs, which can be used from a car, seated, in any position, under any circumstances.
Slip your left hand through the loop before you even go for your gun, and you can stab right into them, break, cut and rip them to pieces, smash bone , still grab as well, and won't injure your own hands.
It requires no space, and no more training to throw a punch.
Take that same target from earlier, and punch the hinge of your handcuffs hard into it, and twist. If training, protect the base of your palm.
Seeing is believing.
I'm having trouble visualizing the use of handcuffs as a striking weapon.
Could you post a picture of handcuffs being used like that?
__________________
Whiteness protection program vs international jewish mafia
Niggers gonna nig
 
Old December 22nd, 2010 #67
Justin
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Saratoga, WY
Posts: 1,710
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieWN View Post
The Lapua .338 is the smallest round I would use if firing at a person wearing body armour. There are to many stories of people being shot with 5.56 and not going down to even think about using it in a real firefight. Spraying a target with bullets is great in the movies but in REAL LIFE situations...lol..it doesn`t mean shit. I have relatives that proudly show their scars caused by 5.56mm ammo and they were not wearing body armour. If your going to hit someone. Hit them with something that will take them down. As for the topic AR versus AK ...An AK can survive all kinds of treatment..drop it, it still works..soak it in water or mud..it still works...Your only concern when chooosing a battle rifle is..when i need it to do the job..will it work..The AK has proven itself as idiot proof, its dependable
The .338 Lapua is what was used for the last 2 "world's longest sniper kills", so it's not exactly "small", lol.
 
Old December 22nd, 2010 #68
AussieWN
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,349
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
The .338 Lapua is what was used for the last 2 "world's longest sniper kills", so it's not exactly "small", lol.
Will also pierce body armour as well
 
Old December 22nd, 2010 #69
Justin
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Saratoga, WY
Posts: 1,710
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieWN View Post
Will also pierce body armour as well
There's only a small handful of ammo that WILL be stopped by body armor. Some types of standard ammunition will even pierce deeper than armor piercing rounds of other types. Take for example the 5.7x28mm, which has armor piercing ammo available only to the military, but the standard round will pierce through 3/4 of a grade 3 vest.
 
Old December 24th, 2010 #70
ray bateson
baппed
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: A:\
Posts: 3,367
ray bateson
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Fitzwell View Post
Which gun do you feel is superior?

I will chime in later.
The M1 Garand. What else is there?

 
Old December 25th, 2010 #71
Justin
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Saratoga, WY
Posts: 1,710
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ray bateson View Post
The M1 Garand. What else is there?
Something a little less outdated?
 
Old December 25th, 2010 #72
ray bateson
baппed
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: A:\
Posts: 3,367
ray bateson
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Something a little less outdated?
How old is the design of the ak-47? Stoner's gun ain't precisely fresh-crop either.

What's your definition of superior?
 
Old December 25th, 2010 #73
Justin
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Saratoga, WY
Posts: 1,710
Default

Lol, I already stated in this thread that I hate AKs too. I'd actually take a garand over one, but nearly anything else newer over either.
 
Old December 26th, 2010 #74
Simo Häyhä
Senior Member
 
Simo Häyhä's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 860
Simo Häyhä
Default

The M1 Garand is a superb weapon, and I can tell even though I've never fired one.

I really like the concept of a semi-auto chambered in 30-06 (and btw, I heard there are some AK's out there chambered in 30-06 too); too bad its clip - yes, it's a clip, not a magazine, since it's fed from the top - has a shitty capacity, not to mention that loud metalic sound that it does when you run out of ammo.
 
Old December 27th, 2010 #75
Justin
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Saratoga, WY
Posts: 1,710
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo Häyhä View Post
The M1 Garand is a superb weapon, and I can tell even though I've never fired one.

I really like the concept of a semi-auto chambered in 30-06 (and btw, I heard there are some AK's out there chambered in 30-06 too); too bad its clip - yes, it's a clip, not a magazine, since it's fed from the top - has a shitty capacity, not to mention that loud metalic sound that it does when you run out of ammo.
Oh there's no question as to whether or not it is/was a good weapon. The question is if it's GOOD ENOUGH to still be in use. With the massive selection of different firearms available today I can't believe so few are even considered.

By the way, I think they're supposed to be making the ACR in 30-06, but they've been announcing about 12 different chamberings for that thing since it came out around March and I think they JUST brought the 6.8mm out recently if it's even out yet.
 
Reply

Share


Thread
Display Modes


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:23 PM.
Page generated in 0.16345 seconds.