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Old October 12th, 2010 #41
Leonard Rouse
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Originally Posted by ray bateson View Post
Muzzle flash has never blinded anyone that I've heard about. Brakes or not. In low-light and near-dark conditions, depends, but the worst effect is a momentary retinal retention. Like getting a flashlight in the face. And all gunshots damage unprotected ears. But yeah, they're definitely boomers. The loudest thing I've ever heard was a .50 bmg at the range, with muzzle brake, twenty feet to the right.
lol I bet that was loud!

I was reading a while back--set in Alaska, incidently--about some people putting muzzle brakes on .338 win mag and .375 h&h rifles to dampen the recoil. But Jesus, I'd hate to try to make a quick follow-up shot.

Edit: Re: Muzzle Flash. I was wondering specifically about hot gas coming back toward the shooter's eyes. But maybe it never comes straight back like that, even with a brake.

Last edited by Leonard Rouse; October 12th, 2010 at 07:31 AM.
 
Old October 12th, 2010 #42
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Originally Posted by Leonard Rouse View Post
lol I bet that was loud!

I was reading a while back--set in Alaska, incidently--about some people putting muzzle brakes on .338 win mag and .375 h&h rifles to dampen the recoil. But Jesus, I'd hate to try to make a quick follow-up shot.
They're only intended to control muzzle flip. But a side effect with some heavier models is actually lesser felt recoil, like, a lot less.

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Edit: Re: Muzzle Flash. I was wondering specifically about hot gas coming back toward the shooter's eyes. But maybe it never comes straight back like that, even with a brake.
Nah... it never happens. The first thought that goes into modern gun design is litigation, and avoiding it at all costs. Someone somewhere once said that guns are quite arguably the safest consumer product being made today (in spite of the obvious irony).
 
Old October 12th, 2010 #43
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People I know who have shot men with 5.56mm tell me that it simply does not do the job.
Look up the "Beltway Sniper" incident to see if 5.56 does the job or not.
With that being said, I'm sure most combat troops would rather have a rifle round with more mass.
 
Old October 13th, 2010 #44
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One, in particular, put three taps into a man who was running at him (after the promised 72 virgins, I suppose). He saw the blood spurts when the rounds hit. The target barely slowed down. The only reason that he was around to tell me the story was that his platoon sergeant used an AK-47 to cut the bastard in half.
I'm sorry, but this whole story just smells of bullshit.

Three bullets and the enemy did not stop? I'm guessing he didn't hit him center mass, but ok, let's pretend he did. So...three bullets in his center mass...and he didn't drop? I'm sorry, that's a tough one to swallow. The shock your body goes through when you get shot is enormous, both in the psychological and physical spheres. Not to mention the vital organs which, inevitably, must have been hit. It's hard for someone to keep standing when hit in his center mass by pretty much every caliber, let alone a 223.

Also, why did the platoon sergeant have an AK-47? As far as I know, AK's aren't standard issue in the western armed forces, except for Russia. What was he doing with an AK to begin with? Where on earth was his standard issue rifle?

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All of the above renders the AR-15/M-16 a poor choice of weapon if the intended role is to be a man killer.
If you mean the M16a1, a.k.a the JAM-O-RAMA, then yeah, you're right. But it's not the caliber's fault, it's the weapon's; but that's besides the point (the AR isn't exactly the most reliable weapon either, btw).

Now, let's just conclude this once and for all.

Take a look at these:







That's some conclusive data on the subject at hand. I think we can all agree that, yes, the 223 isn't exactly the best all-around round; but it WILL get the job done, if you know how to make it get the job done.
 
Old October 13th, 2010 #45
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Three bullets and the enemy did not stop? I'm guessing he didn't hit him center mass, but ok, let's pretend he did. So...three bullets in his center mass...and he didn't drop? I'm sorry, that's a tough one to swallow. The shock your body goes through when you get shot is enormous, both in the psychological and physical spheres. Not to mention the vital organs which, inevitably, must have been hit. It's hard for someone to keep standing when hit in his center mass by pretty much every caliber, let alone a 223.
"Instantaneous incapacitation is not possible with non central nervous system wounds and does not always occur with central nervous system wounds. The intrinsic physiologic compensatory mechanisms of humans makes it difficult to inhibit a determined, aggressive person's activities until he has lost enough blood to cause hemorrhagic shock. The body's compensatory mechanisms designed to save a person's life after sustaining a bleeding wound, allow a person to continue to be a threat after receiving an eventually fatal wound, thus necessitating more rounds being fired in order to incapacitate or stop the assailant."
 
Old October 13th, 2010 #46
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So basically adrenaline rushes make you invulnerable to bullets?

I apologize for the rather cynic tone, but yeah, I know it is true; when you have adrenaline rushing through your body you become a lot more resistant to pain induced from an injury. Proof of that would be MMA fighters that, on ocasion, break their jaws and can only perceive it after the fight.

But really, that doesn't explain how 3 center mass shots failed to drop someone. I could see the bloke taking 1 or even maybe 2 bullets; but 3? That's straining it. Even if it was true, one or two more bullets would do the trick.
 
Old October 13th, 2010 #47
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So basically adrenaline rushes make you invulnerable to bullets?
Alright, those last three words make it painfully plain where you're coming from. God. I haven't felt such a headache since I fell over halfway through watching The Replacement Killers.

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But really, that doesn't explain how 3 center mass shots failed to drop someone. I could see the bloke taking 1 or even maybe 2 bullets; but 3? That's straining it. Even if it was true, one or two more bullets would do the trick.
I read it again. Yep. It just fucking explained how three bullets having struck center-of-mass that hadn't severed the spinal cord failed to instantly stop an oncoming attacker, their magical instant killing powers notwithstanding.
 
Old October 13th, 2010 #48
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Alright, those last three words make it painfully plain where you're coming from. God. I haven't felt such a headache since I fell over halfway through watching The Replacement Killers.
Maybe because you need glasses.

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Originally Posted by Simo Häyhä View Post
I apologize for the rather cynic tone
Quote:
I read it again. Yep. It just fucking explained how three bullets having struck center-of-mass that hadn't severed the spinal cord failed to instantly stop an oncoming attacker, their magical instant killing powers notwithstanding.
Oh yeah, because the spinal cord is the only vital organ accessed through someone's core, right? Nevermind the liver, the heart, the spleen, the stomach, the pancreas, the intestines...
 
Old October 13th, 2010 #49
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Maybe because you need glasses.
No, just blown away by the special effects. Ya know... flying backwards when shot, infinite ammo, the "instakill" , exploding chests, exploding locomotives, etc. And just disappointed by the mass ignorance of firearms and terminal ballistics and medical science and things in general that causes comments like this.

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Oh yeah, because the spinal cord is the only vital organ accessed through someone's core, right? Nevermind the liver, the heart, the spleen, the stomach, the pancreas, the intestines...
 
Old October 13th, 2010 #50
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Originally Posted by ray bateson View Post
No, just blown away by the special effects. Ya know... flying backwards when shot, infinite ammo, the "instakill" , exploding chests, exploding locomotives, etc. And just disappointed by the mass ignorance of firearms and terminal ballistics and medical science and things in general that causes comments like this.
Yeah, that's irritating. My thing is the physics-bending use of radios, ala talking to above-ground folks via walkie talkie while the subject is in a sewer, mine shaft, etc.
 
Old October 13th, 2010 #51
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Also, why did the platoon sergeant have an AK-47? As far as I know, AK's aren't standard issue in the western armed forces, except for Russia. What was he doing with an AK to begin with? Where on earth was his standard issue rifle?
It is common in the Australian Army for soldiers to leave their Styer in the locker and to use whatever is available in theatre.
That generally means the AK-47 and the Druganov.
Why?
Because Aussie soldiers want to kill the enemy when they shoot them, not just make them angry.
One of the best sources of ammunition is off the bodies of one's slain foe.
Nobody I know what a kind word to say about any version of the M16, the Styer or 5.56mm.
The Styer is so bad that it makes the M16 look good by comparison.
 
Old October 13th, 2010 #52
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So basically adrenaline rushes make you invulnerable to bullets?

I apologize for the rather cynic tone, but yeah, I know it is true; when you have adrenaline rushing through your body you become a lot more resistant to pain induced from an injury. Proof of that would be MMA fighters that, on ocasion, break their jaws and can only perceive it after the fight.

But really, that doesn't explain how 3 center mass shots failed to drop someone. I could see the bloke taking 1 or even maybe 2 bullets; but 3? That's straining it. Even if it was true, one or two more bullets would do the trick.
I have a couple of friends who took shrapnel and bullets and did not know that they had been hit until after the adrenalin level dropped.
It happens.
Also, a small round such as 5.56 may kill someone eventually, but it takes a while to bleed to death from a hit to the lung, spleen, or stomach.
As for 'one or two more bullets' that is not what a soldier wants.
He wants to kill the bastard with the first hit.
If the calibre he is using will not do that he is using the wrong rifle.
 
Old October 14th, 2010 #53
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I'm not going to paste all the literature here, just two words: wound ballistics. Beyond that it's each man's responsibility to educate himself.

The sum of it all is this...
Given the same shot-placement and equal penetration, the bullet that makes the larger permanent wound channel is the more effective bullet. Every factor -- foot-pounds, velocity, caliber, bullet type, bullet weight -- is variable and relative and no single one is determinative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari..._AK-47_and_M16
 
Old December 20th, 2010 #54
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AR v AK .

For me it has to be the AR-10 7.62x51 as a combat weapon
For bench mark shooting , Weatherby .300-mag
 
Old December 20th, 2010 #55
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AKs, due to their design are very reliable. However, their operating system involves a fairly large reciprocating mass which causes a bit more movement than an AR - that only has the relatively small bolt-carrier assembly moving back and forth.

ARs can be had in other calibers just by swapping the upper.

Just run your AR "wet" and you should be fine. Wet: oil on the bolt and carrier. Don't let it totally dry out.

5.56 within about 120 yrds out of a 16 inch barrel will fragment explosively. Beyond that - less...and less. A 20 inch barrel will get you explosive frag out to about 200 yrds. People don't do well when hit by a 5.56 at explosive frag velocities. They do better when hit at lower speeds. Want to shoot a 70+ grain bullet out of your 5.56 AR for more down-range energy and penetration? You need a fast twist barrel - something like a 1:7"...that's one full bullet revolution in 7 inches of barrel travel. Most ARs are 1:9.

Here's a little trick: shoot the heavy 75 grain bullets out of your 1:9 barrel anyway. They'll come out wobbling a bit - kind of like a mis-thrown football. Not very accurate - but when they hit...they immediately go unstable and rip the crap out of the target. Similar wounding mechanism to the Russian AK round (7.62x39 - steel core bullet with an airspace in the nose - deforms immediately and goes unstable upon contact). Good for up close and personal (within 100 yrds due to inaccuracy)...not sniping.

If you're shooting human targets beyond 200 yrds...don't use the 5.56 - unless you go with the heavier bullets requiring the faster twist barrels. Or, better yet - choose a different caliber.

Adversary wearing body armor? Now you need something like a 7.62x51. (.308). That's going to put a hurt on 'em. Aim for the pelvis. Not ctr of mass. The plvis is where the center of gravity is - it moves last. If a pelvic hit doesn't kill him - just shoot him again. LOL

Choose your caliber by matching it to your intended use.

It's not difficult.

Last edited by Pat Healey; December 20th, 2010 at 07:30 PM.
 
Old December 20th, 2010 #56
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Aden , mid 60's , Issued with AR-15 , they where a bitch for stoppages . No oil and well sweat ed , they had to be as dry as snuff to run right .
 
Old December 20th, 2010 #57
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Aden , mid 60's , Issued with AR-15 , they where a bitch for stoppages . No oil and well sweat ed , they had to be as dry as snuff to run right .
No kidding?

Maybe that had something to do with the cornstarch they were putting in the powder gumming it up.

How do you run your AR-10? Dry also?

Last edited by Pat Healey; December 20th, 2010 at 07:20 PM.
 
Old December 20th, 2010 #58
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No kidding?

Maybe that had something to do with the cornstarch they were putting in the powder gumming it up.

How do you run your AR-10? Dry also?
Oil is sticky and shit/sand tends to adhere to it , which makes for the stoppages ... Aden / sand pit .
Don't have an AR -10 anymore they took them back after evaluation , which we thought were better than our SLR's

Never thought of the cornstarch in the cordite....lol
 
Old December 20th, 2010 #59
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Originally Posted by 22 G View Post
Oil is sticky and shit/sand tends to adhere to it , which makes for the stoppages ... Aden / sand pit .
Don't have an AR -10 anymore they took them back after evaluation , which we thought were better than our SLR's

Never thought of the cornstarch in the cordite....lol
Yes, the close tolerances of the AR can be a big problem.

The AK is looser so the shit doesn't jam it as easily.

Maybe somebody needs to invent a totally closed system - so no sand can possibly get into the action. That way you can still have tight tolerances and great accuracy for those long head-shots...and it won't gum up with shit as easy.

Oh well, like that's going to happen...

For all around use - if you're not babying the weapon and you're in a shitty environment...the AK is superior.

Also, don't try to hit someone with your empty AR...it'll just break - and don't fall on it. If you bend the buffer tube - it won't work anymore. An empty AK can still be used as a club.

If you're sniping - you need a different weapon.

Last edited by Pat Healey; December 20th, 2010 at 07:53 PM.
 
Old December 20th, 2010 #60
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Have used most variants in the AK family at one time or another , even some jig-saw puzzle one's made from all- sorts of bit and pieces . The AKM prob the best .....YES THEY DO MAKE A GOOD CLUB....LOL
 
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