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Old August 16th, 2012 #1
Mr A.Anderson
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Default Best SHTF Scenario Firearm?

I did a search on here back to 2008, and didn't see the subject, so please excuse me if this has already been talked about.

With the recent demand in the US for AK-47 rifles in the news, and the ensuing discussion, I wanted to discuss which weapon/caliber/gauge do you feel is the best for a SHTF Scenario.

I want to keep this broad as possible, as getting into specific missions/roles could go on forever (which I'm sure will happen anyway). I've been in discussions about this before, but not here, so what the hell, right?

If you could only have one firearm for a SHTF scenario, what would it be and why?

I'm not talking about an armed insurrection where you will be engaging professional armed troops. I'm talking a complete breakdown of society where the Establishment can no longer enforce the rule of law. Rioting, looting, roving bands of gangs and civilians would be the most common opposition. Of course, where you live (geographical terrain) and population density (urban or rural) will play a role for each person's descision as well.

I've given this much thought over the years, and I have to go with a 12 ga shotgun. Hands down, I find it the most versatile firearm to have, and is effective enough in about any SHTF scenario to get the job done. About the only thing you are not going to do with it is snipe long range targets.

The versatility of the 12 gauge ammunition will allow you to perform several different key survival aspects. You can use light shot to hunt small game and fowl, rifled slugs (no need to even have a rifled barrel even though that would be better with a sabot slug) to reach out and take down large game or other armed threats out to a distance of 150 meters reliably, and buckshot for close quarters defense/gathering scenarios.

12 gauge ammunition is readily available, and easily stockpiled even though it will take up more space/weight than rifle or pistol rounds.

The biggest disadvantage to a 12 gauge shotgun is distance. With a rifled barrel or rifled slug, you have a max effective range out to about 150 meters. While just about any rifle cartridge will absolutely eclipse this, most people (ie ghetto monkeys and suburbians) can't hit a target at 50 feet, let alone at 50 meters, giving the 12 gauge slug superiority in trained hands.

The second disadvantage to a 12 gauge shotgun (or any shotgun for that matter) is magazine capacity. Unless you have a box magazine or drum magazine shotgun, you will typically have a maximum of 9 round capacity (tactical) and less if you are using a standard hunting version.

To me, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. So, what do you think?

**edit**
Just noticed a relatively new product for shotguns. A high capacity magazine that will attach to your hunting shotgun's tubular magazine, giving you a maximum of 23 round capacity. They are expensive, and I imagine would make the shotgun nose heavy as hell. http://www.xrailbyrci.com/
 
Old August 18th, 2012 #2
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You forgot to mention the MASSIVE amount of "exotic" ammo for 12ga., such as the flechette rounds or .50BMG sabot slugs, the less-lethal variants (about 20 of these, including the new Tazer XREP that I think is only available to police currently, as well as rubber slugs loaded with tear gas powder), and breaching/dragon's breath/bird bang/whatever-the-hell-you-can-stick-in-the-shell. Lol. There have also been major advances in semi-auto shotguns, as well as magazine-fed semi-autos, in case you considered that as a negative.

Basically, if you have a job that needs to be done, a 12ga. can get it done unless it's an extremely long range.
 
Old August 18th, 2012 #3
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12g with 00 buck shot.
 
Old August 21st, 2012 #4
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Stick to common ammo types that the enemy uses for the firearms you will rely on.

A long rifle of a caliber that the enemy uses, or is very common, .308/7.62x54, 30-06, 30-30 (most common hunting rifle type in the US).

An assault rifle of either 7.62x39, or 5.56 NATO.

A pistol that is 9mm, .45ACP, or .40 S&W. Use JHP rounds. I own a Glock 19, with 2 33 round extended mags. Also own an H&K 45 USP. The H&K is hands down the best pistol I've ever fired, and would highly recommend it to anyone. H&K makes top quality stuff. I got my H&K 45 for about $800 3 years ago. http://www.hk-usa.com/civilian_produ...pc_general.asp.

If you want a machine gun, and got the money, try to get your hands on a pre-ban H&K 91, uses 7.62x54, and you can buy 100 round drum mags for it. They run about $2500-$3000 or so, and about $500 for the drum mags, but IMO its worth it if you got the money, because that rifle is a BEAST. An AR-15 is a toy compared to this.

A .22 lr or .22 magnum would be good for hunting small game, but is useless in a shoot out.

You can't go wrong with any type of shotgun, even a .410 can splatter someones head like a ripe melon.

I own several rifles, and I deer hunt with a Winchester .300 WSM, its sorta an exotic ammo type, and guns like that you just aren't going to find ammo for when SHTF. I can hit a coffee can at 500 yards with it, even though its sighted in for about 150 yards. Very flat trajectory for the ammo type I use for it, which is $70 for a box of 20 rounds.
 
Old August 21st, 2012 #5
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I think the consensus for ONE survival-type firearm is 12ga shotgun. I like the Remington 870. Pump action is simple, reliable, and quick; and this gun is common enough that parts should be available if needed.

Of course, everybody has their favorite handgun, model & caliber. Myself, I'd feel more comfortable with a Marlin .30-30; not much of a handgun guy.

And a whole lot of high quality knives.
 
Old August 21st, 2012 #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowe View Post
An assault rifle of either 7.62x39, or 5.56 NATO.
The phrase "assault rifle" means nothing. It's an inflammatory phrase used by Big Jew and his shabbos goy to demonize a simple semi-automatic rifle with military looking furniture. When I was stationed with the Marine Corps (FMF Corpsman) I never once heard a Marine use the term "assault rifle" to describe any firearm or other machine used to launch projectiles or ordinance in their armory.

It's simply another use of sophistry to confuse and scare the ignorant just like the term "racist."

You can assault someone with a brick but I've never heard a brick referred to as an "assault brick." Maybe if it's painted black or some other camo scheme it could qualify as an "assault brick."

Just found this "assault mouse pad." A special permit is required before one can purchase it.


(No offense is meant to Crowe. Just pointing out how ridiculous it is when our own language is used as a weapon of war.)

Last edited by OTPTT; August 21st, 2012 at 05:50 PM.
 
Old August 22nd, 2012 #7
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I know very few people who hunt with "assault" rifles; that is, black plastic semi-autos all tricked out with multi-round magazines and rails and shit. Would a bolt action 8mm with a black plastic Monte Carlo stock be considered an assault rifle?

Much more important than magazine capacity, caliber, or how cool your rifle looks is Being Able To Hit What You're Shooting At!
Sadly, most folks can't.
 
Old August 23rd, 2012 #8
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If i could choose just one i'd get a hunting rifle that shot .223.
 
Old August 26th, 2012 #9
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Weapons with lots of ammunition available, one way or another. The most commonly used and issued types of weapons.

12-gauge shotgun shells.

.22 handgun ammunition.

Anything firing a 7.62x51mm NATO round. 7.62x39mm round. Winchester .308 round.

That kind of thing.

PS: Ah, sorry, Crowe, didn't read your post before I posted this...
 
Old August 26th, 2012 #10
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http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...26&postcount=1

Sgt. Skullís Basic Combat Shooting Course

Iím going rant away about gats, rounds, magazines, combat shooting ranges and combat shooting techniques.
Iím going to focus on three gats:

The M16 (A useless piece of sót)

The AK47 (Damn Fine!)

The M14 (Even Better!)

Each gat fires a different round.

The M16 round is simply under-powered.
The AK47 round has sufficient power.
The M14 round is best hands down. I call the M14 round the "goodbye" round. If you shoot the other MFer in the chest with an M14 round at rock throwing range itís "goodbye" for him Ė he wonít be causing you any more trouble. But of course, just to be 100% sure, put a few more rounds in the simple MFer just in case he didnít get the message.

The first thing you got to get your mind right about is "Rock Throwing Range" or RTR. If your gat/round combo doesnít keep you alive at RTR itís useless, and you will be too in short order, by which I mean brains-blown-out dead. By "Rock Throwing Range" I mean about thirty (30) meters and less. Combat infantrymen live or die at RTR. Remember that most of all. If you have a close encounter with an enemy MFer at RTR one of you is almost certainly going to personally meet the Flying Spaghetti Monster mucho pronto. Beyond RTR the probability of one of you cashing in falls off rapidly so set aside beyond RTR ranges for a while and focus you attention on RTR.

In combat shooting at RTR you wonít be using your sites. Youíll have the butt of the gat against your shoulder and looking over the barrel towards the other MFer, or ... you will be firing with the butt under your armpit like you see in the old gangster movies with their "Tommy" guns. In both cases you wonít be using your sites and therefore it doesnít mean jack s--t how "accurate" your gat is.
All assault gats are equally accurate at RTR. Accuracy is for snipers only and Iíll cover that later on. I wanna strangle all these simple blabber mouths who keep gassing away about the "accuracy" of this gat vs. that gat. They are giving undo attention to the non-essential while neglecting the essential Ė staying alive at RTR where all gats are equally accurate.

Now Iím going to talk about the various rounds at RTR. It is essential that the other MFer doesnít get off even one shot at you. NOT EVEN ONE!!! When you shoot him you want him to go down for sure and be so fóked up that he canít shoot at you any more, not even once.
There are some points to keep in mind about this situation. First, the M16 round just doesnít hurt the other MFer enough to put him away instantly in all cases. To be sure you can spray away (which I strongly recommend) at RTR, but you might miss with a lot of the rounds and the rounds will often have to penetrate stuff like bush and walls and the webbing and other crap infantrymen usually have all over their torso, and also you may only hit him in an arm or leg. In these situations the M16 simply doesnít have enough juice left to really fók up the other MFer enough.

Most guys in combat are so pumped up on fear and adrenaline that they donít always react to being hit Ė even a really bad hit - until after a second or two or three or more Ė during which time they can and often do keep shooting at you. This is far less often the case when they are hit with the devastating M14 round.

I canít quote stats about muzzle velocity or penetration of ballistic gelatin - Iíve never shot a bowl of jello. Most of you probably remember the scene in the movie Full Metal Jacket where Gomer puts the M14 in his mouth and pulls the trigger. If it had been a real M14 shooting a real M14 round it would have blown the back of his head apart like in the JFK autopsy photo and blasted a big crater in the wall behind Gomer and just kept on going at least until it hit the next wall. As for Sgt. Big Mouth, he would have flopped around on the floor for a while after that torso shot until he bleed out. Humans are big, tough animals and hard to kill. They donít die instantly unless you blow their brains out, they have to bleed out. Thatís why you had best pump five or six or more rounds into them to induce shock and then, circumstances permitting, take careful aim and blow its brains out.

There are all sorts of arguments that can be raised against the M14 Rifle and the M14 round. The classic one is "but you can carry mucho more M16 rounds than M14 rounds because the M16 rounds are lighter." My reply to that stupid crap is "kiss my ass." Youíll still have those mucho more M16 rounds in your ammo pouches when they throw your dead carcass on the dustoff chopper or leave it for the dogs and buzzards. Just carry more rounds or go light on firing at beyond RTR range Ė thatís the real solution to the bogus "heavier ammo" problem of the M14.

As for the AK47 round itís almost as good as the M14 round ... almost. There is a "sweet range" if you will, when it comes to the power vs. the number-of-rounds-you-can-carry tradeoff. The AK47 round represents the lower acceptable end of this tradeoff and the M14 round represents the higher end. It all boils down to this. The M16 round is lower than the desirable minimum power required and there is no point in blasting anybody with a round more powerful than the M14 round.

Another thing you veterans of future wars better keep in mind is this. It is next to impossible to legally get a fully automatic assault gat here in the USA. Semi auto gats are relatively easy to get. That means that when our glorious empire blows and you go dig up the gat you had the prudent foresight to buy and bury it will probably be a semi-auto. (I recommend Modern Weapons Caching by Ragnar Benson)

That means you wonít have the option of showering the other MFer on full auto with M16 rounds like we grunts in Vietnam did. Youíll be firing on semi auto as fast as you can pull the trigger. That circumstance means puny M16 rounds will be even less effective than they were in the Rock-n-Roll slaughterhouse of Vietnam Ė much better to have an M14 in your sweaty hands because itís a one-hit sleeping pill, so to speak.
And another thing. Once in Vietnam out in the bush I saw a sergeant whose M14 was so rusted he couldnít pull the charging handle back with his hand. No problem. He just put the butt of his M14 on the ground and stomped down on the charging handle with his combat boot. The M14 didnít bust and it worked just fine. You canít do that with that fragile piece of Mickey Mouse junk M16. And if you just gotta have a civilian gat that fires the M16 round be sure to get the Ruger Mini-14 which at least has a proper, M14-style charging handle.

And keep in mind that there are in this glorious empire immense stocks of M16 and M14 ammo, but not so much for the AK47. No gat is useful unless you have ammo for it. When the empire blows the a Mini-14 (that fires M16 ammo) would be a nice gat to have if you canít afford a civilian M14. The Mini-14 is just a shrunk-down M14 and is basically as rugged and reliable as its big brother. It has an excellent reputation but just be sure to get a model with a heavy barrel. Also, they are all of excellent manufacture and so buying one is a basic no-brainer. As an added attraction there are plenty of scopes and magazines etc for this nifty and relatively cheap gat. Never, and I mean never, buy ANY civilian M16, which are usually called AR this or that. And of course, if you ever have to use a Mini 14 to bag a long pig make sure to shoot the MFer mucho many times because the round is basically underpowered.

I had an AK47 when I was grunting in the Croatian army and it was superior in every way to the M16 except one. The only good thing I can say about the M16 is that it has the safety/fire switch exactly the way it should be Ė on the left side of the gat where your thumb is - as opposed to the right side on the AK47 where it shouldnít be. Also, itís one click down to single fire and two clicks down to get to full auto on the M16 whereas on the AK47 itís just the opposite - one click down to full auto and two clicks down to single fire. The hassle is that when you actually get Ďbushed and have to start shooting you are so freaked out that you tend to jam down on the safety switch. On the M16 that puts it on full auto where you need to be but on the AK47 it puts you on single fire. Also, you tend to rip the palm of your hand on the AK47 selector switch when you pull the charging handle back. Itís a minor thing, but worth mentioning.

One last bitch about the M16 - that stupid "bolt assist" doohickey or whatever itís called. In actual combat it increases the down time when you change magazines. You gotta hit it every time you change magazines which takes an extra motion and an extra second. Cycling magazines through your gat as fast as possible (especially at the start) of a shoot íem up is of primo importance. And donít pay any attention to those brain-dead pencil neck geeks who put down "spray and pray." If you are not spraying for your life youíre not in a real fire fight.

One cautionary note about buying an AK47 or an SKS that fires the same round. The manufacturing quality of these gats varies a hell of a lot. Some are fine and some are junk and it takes a real expert to know which is which. I donít know, so please no emails asking me if some AK or SKS made in Lower Bongonia is OK or not, I havenít a clue. On the other hand, as far as I know, all civilian M14s are of fine quality so itís a no-brainer when buying one.

Also, never tape your magazines together end-to-end like some do for quicker changing. You are begging for a jam from a fouled magazine. And donít load your magazines to capacity on ANY gat. I learned from bitter experience in Vietnam that it was best to have 17 rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber (with the safety on, of course, kiddies). I remember that those stupid M16 magazines tended to cause a jam of some sort both when they were loaded to capacity (20 rounds) and also when firing the last two or three rounds. I guess that the spring in the M16 magazine supplied too much force when fully loaded and not enough force when firing the last few rounds.

And do get a scope. Civil War Two will be fought mostly in urban and suburban areas where you (yes, you) will have unobstructed views for many hundreds of meters unlike the jungle of Vietnam where almost all the grunt work was at RTR. In these urban areas the M14 will once again out perform hands down both the AK and the M16 which fire weaker, shorter range rounds. And no email asking about this or that scope because I have no personal experience of using them. I do know from my time in Croatia that snipers with scopes racked up mountains of bodies.

And lastly I must say this. No amount of bang! bang! bang! is going to solve our problem here in America. Weíll just be shooting our neighbors who like us didnít cause this problem. What we really need is a revolution in perception which will result in the PEACEFUL and LAWFUL removal of all the London-controlled stooges that have driven us over the cliff. Until then have as much fun as you can and may the Cyclops eat you next to last.

Yours truly
Sgt. Skull

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...26&postcount=1
 
Old August 26th, 2012 #11
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The .223 is not a cartridge made for hunting game and in most jurisdictions it's unlawful to hunt with it. .270 or better is the rule.

One would be wise to have a .308 handy for hunting.
 
Old August 26th, 2012 #12
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If I had the money (wish I did) to purchase four firearms it would be these and in this order:

1) .45 ACP high capacity pistol. The Springfield Armory XD45 (or XDm45; match barrel), or a Glock 21. There are better pistols but not any better value for the money.
[To protect your immediate person and personal space.]

2) 12g shotgun with at least a capacity of 8 shells. 7 in the tube, one in the chamber or better. [To protect your home and threats within and without the house at close range with devastating results.]

3) .223 semi-auto carbine with capability for high capacity magazines.
[To repel threats at distances of 100-200 yards.]

4) .308 bolt action tactical rifle with sniper scope, or AR10 (.308 semi) with high capacity magazines.
[To neutralize threats at great distance giving one a better possibility of doing so without being identified or risk being shot doing so.]
 
Old August 26th, 2012 #13
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And lastly I must say this. No amount of bang! bang! bang! is going to solve our problem here in America. We’ll just be shooting our neighbors who like us didn’t cause this problem. What we really need is a revolution in perception which will result in the PEACEFUL and LAWFUL removal of all the London-controlled stooges that have driven us over the cliff. Until then have as much fun as you can and may the Cyclops eat you next to last.

Yours truly
Sgt. Skull

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...26&postcount=1

Sadly, tragically, such a horror is very likely as in the quote above, as we do need the "PEACEFUL and LAWFUL removal of all the London-controlled stooges".

Leftist, neo shit heads, movie headed patriotards, and the ever dangerously dim witted arrogantly ignorant evanjellycull's will provide for chaos.

Over all, if it would go down non peacefully, it was the plan so the regime can after baiting the action start mass killing and detaining like in the old USSR fun times they gave White Russian in the million's through the 1920's and 30's.


Read "Stalin's Willing Excutioner's" or least the review of this book.
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Old August 27th, 2012 #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by America First View Post
And lastly I must say this. No amount of bang! bang! bang! is going to solve our problem here in America. Weíll just be shooting our neighbors who like us didnít cause this problem. What we really need is a revolution in perception which will result in the PEACEFUL and LAWFUL removal of all the London-controlled stooges that have driven us over the cliff. Until then have as much fun as you can and may the Cyclops eat you next to last.

Yours truly
Sgt. Skull

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...26&postcount=1

Sadly, tragically, such a horror is very likely as in the quote above, as we do need the "PEACEFUL and LAWFUL removal of all the London-controlled stooges".

Leftist, neo shit heads, movie headed patriotards, and the ever dangerously dim witted arrogantly ignorant evanjellycull's will provide for chaos.

Over all, if it would go down non peacefully, it was the plan so the regime can after baiting the action start mass killing and detaining like in the old USSR fun times they gave White Russian in the million's through the 1920's and 30's.


Read "Stalin's Willing Excutioner's" or least the review of this book.
Tyranny never goes down without a fight. Never has in the past, and anyone that expects it to in the future is just kidding themselves. So you think ZOG will just peacefully piss off, if we run to the ballot box and vote them out?
 
Old August 27th, 2012 #15
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The question is how much ammo and water can you carry on your back. If you are not sure start off with this figure. 25% of total cargo weight is gun(s) and ammo. 70% of the cargo weight is water.
Choose the hottest time of the year, the hottest time of the day and start hiking,...upwards. Give us a call in about a half hour and let us know how you are doing, or rather what gun would be best suited for you during SHTF.
 
Old August 27th, 2012 #16
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Default Nothing SAWs Niggurz in half better than this...

I don't have the money, nor a black market contact. Even so, this is the weapon I would want for a Shit-Hits-The-Fan situation.

IF I ever manage to get one, I know that I'll also need to buy up as much ammo as I can - on the spot - because if there's a national collapse, I might never have another chance.

Pistols and shotguns are fine. But in a mass attack of rampaging niggurz, I want to mow them down in droves. Kill them before they cross my boundary line, and kill them dead.


PICTURED: Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW), M249 Light Machine Gun

Nothin' sez lovin' like an M249 a buzzin'
 
Old August 27th, 2012 #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent McKaskell View Post
I don't have the money, nor a black market contact. Even so, this is the weapon I would want for a Shit-Hits-The-Fan situation.

IF I ever manage to get one, I know that I'll also need to buy up as much ammo as I can - on the spot - because if there's a national collapse, I might never have another chance.

Pistols and shotguns are fine. But in a mass attack of rampaging niggurz, I want to mow them down in droves. Kill them before they cross my boundary line, and kill them dead.


PICTURED: Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW), M249 Light Machine Gun

Nothin' sez lovin' like an M249 a buzzin'
Not a big M249 fan. No matter what, I just REALLY don't like the .223 FMJ round for a man stopper. Give me a M240B any day of the week if you want to go the LMG route.

 
Old August 29th, 2012 #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTPTT
12g with 00 buck shot.


BTW, early range reports on the kel tec ksg are that it's a pos.
 
Old August 29th, 2012 #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent McKaskell View Post
I don't have the money, nor a black market contact. Even so, this is the weapon I would want for a Shit-Hits-The-Fan situation.

IF I ever manage to get one, I know that I'll also need to buy up as much ammo as I can - on the spot - because if there's a national collapse, I might never have another chance.

Pistols and shotguns are fine. But in a mass attack of rampaging niggurz, I want to mow them down in droves. Kill them before they cross my boundary line, and kill them dead.


PICTURED: Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW), M249 Light Machine Gun

Nothin' sez lovin' like an M249 a buzzin'
Closest you are going to get to that and be within "legal" bounds is a pre-ban H&K 91, or another M-14 variant. Keep in mind its not illegal to own a conversion kit. Its only illegal to install one. Just a hint.

If you got 10s of thousands of dollars just sitting around and need something to spend it on, you can try to get a Browning M2. I've seen semi-auto variants go for around $3000. But few people want a gun like that unless its fully automatic (including myself), which is why the semi-auto variants are so much cheaper. Fully automatic one will run you about $30,000. And .50 BMG ammo isn't cheap either. I haven't looked into if there are conversion kits, but I'm sure there are, but I just don't know how much. If SHTF, the last thing someone is going to worry about is getting busted for their firearms being converted to fully automatic.
 
Old August 29th, 2012 #20
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Originally Posted by Crowe View Post
Closest you are going to get to that and be within "legal" bounds is a pre-ban H&K 91, or another M-14 variant. Keep in mind its not illegal to own a conversion kit. Its only illegal to install one. Just a hint.
FYI - it is perfectly legal to own fully automatic weapons (to include the M249 SAW) in the United States. I've been suprised in the past at how many people don't know this. You have to fill out a shitload of paperwork, background investigations, fees, etc with the ATF. I don't feel like finding all the sources and forms again, but you can google it to find out which forms you need, and what all is involved.

Of course, most people here probably wouldn't want to go through the extensive orifice check the feds are going to put you through to obtain the license.......or be on "The List".
 
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