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Old February 27th, 2013 #81
Crowe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy Wagahuski View Post
Well, crowe is typical of average gun owners who won't be bothered to learn the facts about how bullets actually kill, instead satisfied with resting on the couch of popular literature and anecdotal say-so, such as the marshall & sanow "stopping power" tables still infecting the conversation decades since their debunking.

The best argument against his moronic post is an equally simplistic use of inference. Like this...

Fact: The .38 special has killed more people from 1900 to present day than any other handgun cartridge, ever.

Inference: The .38 special is the most effective handgun cartridge.

It's not really, but the point is how retarded people arguing "stopping power" are, because their own logic works against them as I just demonstrated.
You know absolutely nothing about firearms retard so don't act like an expert.

You're just a fuckwit with a pokemon avatar.

Fact: Police officers traded those .38 specials in for .357 magnum, because that round lacked power, and too many criminals got shot and weren't put down. .38 special has no respect among law enforcement or military. Or anyone that even knows a lick about guns would prefer a wide variety of rounds over .38.

My point is there is absolutely no reason to use .38 special these days, when there are rounds that are more powerful. People used them in the past because they were compact, and at the early turn of the century, the .38 special was an above average round. Not only are there more powerful rounds today, but also more variety in sub compact firearms.

Last edited by Crowe; February 27th, 2013 at 08:25 AM.
 
Old February 27th, 2013 #82
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Originally Posted by Mr A.Anderson View Post
This particular profile is that of a ..38SPL +P 158gr. lead semi-wadcutter hollow point "FBI" load @ 880 f/s. This is another example of a typical non-fragmenting expanding bullet wound profile produced by an expanding bullet. This particular load shows good penetration at 32cm (12.6") and good expansion at .59". Perhaps this is one reason that this loading has a good reputation on the street. The Winchester Black Talon 9mm 147gr JHP at 981 f/s produced an almost identical profile with penetration of 35cm (13.8") and and expansion of .61". In the .40 caliber ammo the profiles were very similar with the Hornaday 155gr XTP at 1090 giving 14.3" penetration and .57" expansion, the 180gr XTP at 970 f/s giving 14.5" and .67", and the Winchester 180gr Black Talon giving 13.4" and .68".



This profile is the Remington 125gr JSP .357 Magnum at 1390 f/s which has an excellent reputation on the street. Note the shape and size of the temporary and permanent cavities are very similar to the .38 Special round above and penetration is only about 1.5" greater. Expansion is .66", only .07" greater than the .38 round in spite of the vastly increased velocity. An excellent example of good bullet construction at work. The equivalent JHP round gives about 10 percent less penetration and a .70 expansion.

http://www.frfrogspad.com/terminal.htm
I'll concede that with the right rounds .38 special is adequate.

But If I can buy rounds for another caliber that is more powerful and also cheaper, and can also get a sub compact in that said caliber then what is the purpose of owning a .38 special? You can buy sub compact 9mm and .40 S&W that are about the size of a wallet. Also larger capacity and rate of fire than a revolver. A good revolver brand will also run you about as much if not more than the sub compact semiauto. Glock makes really good sub compacts, and they aren't too expensive and are very reliable.

Last edited by Crowe; February 27th, 2013 at 08:44 AM.
 
Old February 27th, 2013 #83
Roy Wagahuski
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This can't proceed until you've defined your terms.

What is this new property called 'power'?
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Old February 27th, 2013 #84
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Shooting a nigger in the head is an act foredoomed. A nigger head is very
thick and dense as well as having strange angularity. The lady would have
hurt him much worse by shooting him in the shin bones. A kill shot would have
to be in the "muh dick" area as this is the brain of Carlton Coon.

I made the error once of punching a nigger in the head,hard. I don't think he even felt it. I switched to body punching and soon won that particular fistfight.
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Old March 3rd, 2013 #85
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The bean-bunny never came back?
 
Old March 4th, 2013 #86
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The US Army went from the 38 to the 45 revolver & 45 Auto after fighting the Moro tribesmen in the Phillipines. My Great Grandpa was there and said that the tribesmen would get high and the only thing that stopped them was a 12ga shotgun.

Whatever you carry, leave the head shots to the movies. You'll never go wrong with aiming for center body mass. Also from a legal standpoint, you shoot to stop not kill.

Besides, why in the Hell would you shoot a nigger in the head? The head is the hardest part of the body. Plus the bullet might ricochet and hit Whitey.
 
Old March 5th, 2013 #87
Roy Wagahuski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SA Mann
Also from a legal standpoint, you shoot to stop not kill.
Though which are synonymous, if you've read the science and understand the physiological mechanisms that result in 'stops' from shots to the center of mass -- they do necessarily mean killing shots. So the distinction is bullshit.

Understand this, tards: There is no possibly, in effective defensive shooting, getting around shooting to kill; but people refuse to face it for their unexpressed, and justified, fear of the jewdicial system. That and popular gun literature pandering to their reservations about the use of lethal force have gun owners groping through a labyrinth of pseudo-science seeking a non-existent middle-ground.

My advice: If you're so scared, trade the gun for some mace.
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Last edited by Roy Wagahuski; March 5th, 2013 at 05:21 AM. Reason: typo!
 
Old March 5th, 2013 #88
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[from the above]

[edit: any errors are original to the document]

THE HUMAN TARGET

With the exceptions of hits to the brain or upper spinal cord, the concept of reliable and reproducible immediate incapacitation of the human target by gunshot wounds to the torso is a myth.

The human target is a complex and durable one. A wide variety of psychological, physical, and physiological factors exist, all of them pertinent to the probability of incapacitation. However, except for the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed, none of the factors are within the control of the law enforcement officer.

Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed.

In fact, physiological factors may actually play a relatively minor role in achieving rapid incapacitation. Barring central nervous system hits, there is no physiological reason for an individual to be incapacitated by even a fatal wound, until blood loss is sufficient to drop blood pressure and/or the brain is deprived of oxygen. The effects of pain, which could contribute greatly to incapacitation, are commonly delayed in the aftermath of serious injury such as a gunshot wound. The body engages survival patterns, the well known "fight or flight" syndrome. Pain is irrelevant to survival and is commonly suppressed until some time later. In order to be a factor, pain must first be perceived, and second must cause an emotional response. In many individuals, pain is ignored even when perceived, or the response is anger and increased resistance, not surrender.

Psychological factors are probably the most important relative to achieving rapid incapacitation from a gunshot wound to the torso. Awareness of the injury (often delayed by the suppression of pain); fear of injury, death, blood, or pain; intimidation by the weapon or the act of being shot; preconceived notions of what people do when they are shot; or the simple desire to quit can all lead to rapid incapacitation even from minor wounds. However, psychological factors are also the primary cause of incapacitation failures.

The individual may be unaware of the wound and thus has no stimuli to force a reaction. Strong will, survival instinct, or sheer emotion such as rage or hate can keep a grievously injured individual fighting, as is common on the battlefield and in the street. The effects of chemicals can be powerful stimuli preventing incapacitation. Adrenaline alone can be sufficient to keep a mortally wounded adversary functioning. Stimulants, anesthetics, pain killers, or tranquilizers can all prevent incapacitation by suppressing pain, awareness of the injury, or eliminating any concerns over the injury. Drugs such as cocaine, PCP, and heroin are dissociative in nature. One of their effects is that the individual "exists" outside of his body. He sees and experiences what happens to his body, but as an outside observer who can be unaffected by it yet continue to use the body as a tool for fighting or resisting.

Psychological factors such as energy deposit, momentum transfer, size of temporary cavity or calculations such as the RII are irrelevant or erroneous. The impact of the bullet upon the body is no more than the recoil of the weapon. The ratio of bullet mass to target mass is too extreme.

The often referred to "knock-down power" implies the ability of a bullet to move its target. This is nothing more than momentum of the bullet. It is the transfer of momentum that will cause a target to move in response to the blow received. "Isaac Newton proved this to be the case mathematically in the 17th Century, and Benjamin Robins verified it experimentally through the invention and use of the ballistic pendulum to determine muzzle velocity by measurement of the pendulum motion."

Goddard amply proves the fallacy of "knock-down power" by calculating the heights (and resultant velocities) from which a one pound weight and a ten pound weight must be dropped to equal the momentum of 9mm and .45ACP projectiles at muzzle velocities, respectively. The results are revealing. In order to equal the impact of a 9mm bullet at its muzzle velocity, a one pound weight must be dropped from a height of 5.96 feet, achieving a velocity of 19.6 fps. To equal the impact of a .45ACP bullet, the one pound weight needs a velocity of 27.1 fps and must be dropped from a height of 11.4 feet. A ten pound weight equals the impact of a 9mm bullet when dropped from a height of 0.72 inches (velocity attained is 1.96 fps), and equals the impact of a .45 when dropped from 1.37 inches (achieving a velocity of 2.71 fps).

A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been known for hundreds of years. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball. Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously.

The human target can be reliably incapacitated only by disrupting or destroying the brain or upper spinal cord. Absent that, incapacitation is subject to a host of variables, the most important of which are beyond the control of the shooter. Incapacitation becomes an eventual event, not necessarily an immediate one. If the psychological factors which can contribute to incapacitation are present, even a minor wound can be immediately incapacitating. If they are not present, incapacitation can be significantly delayed even with major, unsurvivable wounds.
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Last edited by Roy Wagahuski; March 5th, 2013 at 04:18 AM.
 
Old March 5th, 2013 #89
Roy Wagahuski
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[I doubt anybody here is actually going to read the whole PDF and the studies footnoted, so here's the summary for the american attention span]

CONCLUSIONS

Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.

[I.e.: crowe is still full of shit]
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Old March 7th, 2013 #90
N.M. Valdez
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Quote:
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The bean-bunny never came back?
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I don't know what the truth is, and have said as much.

Last edited by N.M. Valdez; March 7th, 2013 at 01:09 AM.
 
Old March 8th, 2013 #91
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I actually did read the entire thing, Roy. It's pretty common sense, although common sense is something most people lack.

And everybody take a look and laugh at "Valdez" and his new toy. If that's actually you, beaner, you need to learn how to handle it before you can do any damage with it. It looks like a baby trying to grasp a crayon... :
 
Old March 8th, 2013 #92
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Originally Posted by SA Mann View Post

Whatever you carry, leave the head shots to the movies. You'll never go wrong with aiming for center body mass. Also from a legal standpoint, you shoot to stop not kill.
Yes, that's a wise comment. You can shoot someone defensively, to stop them attacking, legally. If you shoot someone after planning in advance to kill, then you might go down for murder.
 
Old March 8th, 2013 #93
Roy Wagahuski
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Yeah it's him. But so? I know it's a tall request but let's keep the personalities off this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Yes, that's a wise comment. You can shoot someone defensively, to stop them attacking, legally. If you shoot someone after planning in advance to kill, then you might go down for murder.
I realize that he probably meant from the standpoint of defending oneself in court, where in any politically tinged cases the accused are scrutinized for 'bad' intent to do them in, no matter how obvious their innocence; a reflection of the judaization of a society when thoughts are held to be worse than actions.
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Old March 8th, 2013 #94
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Originally Posted by N.M. Valdez View Post
The idea of you silly ass bitches being competent in close quarters battle or combat marksmanship is comical.
Why exactly is that? There are a lot of folks around here that hunt. As far as military training goes why would you fail to consider that a lot folks were trained to shot by their fathers/uncles/ect that were in the military and showed them the same way you (assuming you were actually in the military) and these folks can hit the same target as you at 1000m and do it with an inferior weapon.

Do you ever have anything to offer other than some bullshit piece of information that you try to cram down everybody's neck or some silly chest beating bullshit about you being the wetback Rambo? Yeah, we get it. They fucked up and let spics in the Army. The military ain't what it used to be.
 
Old March 8th, 2013 #95
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Old March 8th, 2013 #96
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Originally Posted by N.M. Valdez View Post
Tryin to figure out what it is and what it does.
 
Old March 8th, 2013 #97
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Tryin to figure out what it is and what it does.
I fucking know, that was my first thought!
 
Old March 8th, 2013 #98
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Based on Chalino Sanchez...

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Old March 8th, 2013 #99
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And everybody take a look and laugh at "Valdez" and his new toy. If that's actually you, beaner, you need to learn how to handle it before you can do any damage with it. It looks like a baby trying to grasp a crayon... :
Really, bitch? I'm sure you can lend your expertise to military marksmanship instructors, then. Fucken clown.

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Originally Posted by Sam Reeves View Post
Why exactly is that? There are a lot of folks around here that hunt. As far as military training goes why would you fail to consider that a lot folks were trained to shot by their fathers/uncles/ect that were in the military and showed them the same way you (assuming you were actually in the military) and these folks can hit the same target as you at 1000m and do it with an inferior weapon.
You consider second or third hand instruction to be superior to actual training courses offered by military marksmanship instructors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Reeves View Post
Do you ever have anything to offer other than some bullshit piece of information that you try to cram down everybody's neck or some silly chest beating bullshit about you being the wetback Rambo? Yeah, we get it. They fucked up and let spics in the Army. The military ain't what it used to be.
Spics are Spaniards...wetbacks are water crossing immigrants; learn your epithets, idiot.

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I thought you were ignoring my posts, Gay Tranperson. How does one picture constitute "dozens," fucking moron?

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I fucking know, that was my first thought!
And the stupid useless dependent has to chime in too, lol. What are your weapons of choice, dependent? A spatula and a whiskey bottle?
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Old March 8th, 2013 #100
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Originally Posted by N.M. Valdez View Post

And the stupid useless dependent has to chime in too, lol. What are your weapons of choice, dependent? A spatula and a whiskey bottle?
Actually a Springfield XD9 sub compact. But whatever You're now on ignore.
 
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