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Old August 24th, 2005 #21
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Yeah yeah bullshit. Harder to dodge but the injury is less serious so that at least evens it out. Would you rather have a line opened up across you or a puncture into your guts, heart, or brain?
 
Old August 24th, 2005 #22
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That is true, there is a bit of a martial arts myth with Asians. I've seen big muscle-covered Aussie blokes back down from a single skinny Vietnamese on the strength of it. Pretty funny!

Mind you... I work with a few Asians, and all of the Chinese I work with can fight pretty well. Not because of any martial arts nonsense (only one of them is a martial artist), but because they're generally cool-headed and have a good sense for what works and what's impractical and endangering.
 
Old August 24th, 2005 #23
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Errr, the Roman short sword (gladius hispiniensus) was actually a thrusting weapon. Maybe you're thinking of the spatha, which was quite a bit longer and primarily a cavalry weapon anyway?
 
Old August 24th, 2005 #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes
straight thrust is best on foot.

slashing is best from horseback. straight thrust on horseback is more trouble than it's worth. slashing from horseback uses the energy of the horse to add to the destructive force of the blow, and avoids the possible tangling up and loss of the weapon entailed in a piercing thrust.

but, again, on foot the history of sword development and fencing shows the vast superiority of thrusting.

Kenjutsu uses both slashing and thrusting. So that s not one or the other.
Actually reliance on sword thrusts on foot only predominates in two periods: in the Roman Legions, and in Europe after the introduction of gunpowder had rendered body armor obsolete.

Since a lot of the Roman's fighting was against Celts who used big shields but who often lacked good body armor, the gladius thrusting sword was a good weapon.

In spite of this, Celts, and later Germans and Vikings always relied on the slashing broadsword and the shield. Moreover as body armor got better, a thrust to the gut got less effective, whereas a good chop from a broadsword could still break bones (and thus incapacitate) even if the armor was not penetrated (by which I mean chainmail; really good plate armor would not arrive til the late middle ages).

Broadswords also predominated on horseback, at least until the medieval European armor got too good to be defeated by broadsword. In fact, contrary to the Hollywood image of Arabs with scimitars, the standard Arab sword from the time of Mohammad until the invasion of the Mongols, was the straight broadsword. After the Mongols, the curved scimitar predominates in the middle east.

Anyway, what we now think of as "fencing" comes from the gunpowder period and the disappearance of armor. Rapiers and other thrusting swords came to predominate, culminating in the civilian small sword, a thrusting sword with no edges at all. However, on horseback straight broadswords survived until very late, usually with heavy cavalry, although curved calvary sabers dominate late in period.

In Japan everything is different; one can thrust with the Japanese Katana, but in reality it is a draw-cut weapon; one draws the weapon over the target like a razor to make a cut. Against unarmored opponents this weapon is deadly since it can easily slice through bone and remove limbs in a flash. Not so good against armor, though; the Katana is like a delicate razor that one draws over one's target, whereas the European broadsword is an impact weapon that stuns like a club even if it doesn't manage to cut through the target - more like an axe than a razor.

Cut vs. thrust entirely depends on history, tactics, and to a certain extent, whim or fashion. Both are different ways of getting the job done; one is not necessarily better than the other, it depends on the situation.

For a good example of classic broadsword and shield fighting in action, check out your local SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism) group in action. In fact, I just got back from the Pennsic War myself, albeit I haven't done any fighting myself in years. More of a drinker now.
 
Old August 25th, 2005 #25
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As always it depends.
 
Old August 26th, 2005 #26
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Quote:
Rapiers and other thrusting swords came to predominate, culminating in the civilian small sword, a thrusting sword with no edges at all.
I was always under the impression that the estock* pre-dated the rapier, myself. See, one can't use a rapier's cutting edge against a person wearing armour, but it is just the ticket for using against a person not likely to be wearing armour, like a person around after fire-arms made heavy armours obsolete.

Whereas an estock is more limited in use, given that it doesn't have a blade at all and can only be used to stab.
 
Old August 26th, 2005 #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by einzelwesen
I was always under the impression that the estock* pre-dated the rapier, myself. See, one can't use a rapier's cutting edge against a person wearing armour, but it is just the ticket for using against a person not likely to be wearing armour, like a person around after fire-arms made heavy armours obsolete.

Whereas an estock is more limited in use, given that it doesn't have a blade at all and can only be used to stab.

estock, I had never heard of that before, so I looked it up in my browser and what entry came in at number 9? VNN:

http://www.vnnforum.com/printthread.php?t=16555

There you go talkin bout that again Einz!
 
Old August 26th, 2005 #28
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Heh. I own one, and it's a thing of beauty: a 2.5-foot long, perfectly balanced skewer, basically.
 
Old August 26th, 2005 #29
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Quote:
You've noticed one of the many ways by which Jews cultivated fear by suggestion among Whites with though the use of media applied psychology. Beginning around 1970, they started making the great Asian Kung-Fu myth with TV shows having Asian stars or guest-stars who were so accomplished in martial arts that White guys "just didn't have a chance." It was all script and choreography, of course, but when you watch TV your critical faculty melts away, and if it looks convincing your mind often accepts that it is real.
So asian martial arts expertise is a jew myth?

Are you aware that a much higher percentage of asians are raised with martial arts training compared to other races? And from a biological view, the asian formation of advanced martial arts makes perfect sense the fact asians have the fastest conscious reactions times out of any race (niggers have the slowest).

I saw a Vietnamese kid at my college drop a rowdy nigger at a party with one fucking hit to the solar plexus (although he had to jet after that because 7 of his homies decided to help out). I also know a few Thai kids who do Muay Thai and could beat the shit out of me or pretty any person who wasn't trained better than they were.

Most stereotypes do have a root in truth.
 
Old August 26th, 2005 #30
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I've done plenty of tournaments and sparring etc as a younger fellow and clobbered the bejeezus out of every Asian kid I ever went up against. I've been knocked around plenty by Whites and niggers, but that's it. I never had a fight against an Asian kid, because I always got along with them and thought they were pretty nice decent people to be around unlike niggers. But in tournaments, I never found them particularly gifted.

I remember this one poor Korean kid, we were doing Olympic TKD style. I sparred around with him a little and softened him up, he was kind of slow. I think I parried his guard and whacked the shit out of his collarbone area with a decent overhand right which made him drop his arms like a bird with a broken wing. He was all sweaty and pathetic like, sucking wind. I kind of stopped for a second, and then my big mean weightlifting cop of a White "Sa bum nim" runs up to the edge of the ring and roars in my ear like that guy from "karate kid" "WHY THE HELL ARE YOU HESITATING? FINISH HIM!" Boy, that got my attention and a quick shuffle-front-push kick in the breadbasket later, the Korean kid had whacked up against the wall and then crumpled like a sack of potatoes. My teacher threatened to beat the lights out of me if I ever hesitated in front of him again. I felt sympathy for the other kid, but the lesson my teacher was trying to teach me was invaluable. Your training has to produce a reflexive reaction that does not stop until the other party is incapacitated, not just sucking wind.
 
Old August 26th, 2005 #31
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The reasons why it seems like Asians dominate the world of martial arts is simply because they were the first to start promoting theirs internationally not only through dojos and sports(like Judo) but also on film. Europe was full of martial arts for thousands of years, but after the Christianization the old Greco-Roman fighting arts died out when gymnasiums were destroyed and contests stopped. Of course "martial arts" still existed, but their identity was not as strong like the arts of Asia.

Of course in reality, Asia is full of martial arts but only a few of them have proven truly useful, and many have been proven to be almost useless in real combat. Off the top of my head I can only think of three highly effective martial arts from Asia and those of course would be Muay Thai(Khmer boxing), Judo, and Judo's parent Jujitsu. And on the subject of the latter, it was Judo that made Jujitsu truly useful and effective.
 
Old August 27th, 2005 #32
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Quote:
I saw a Vietnamese kid at my college drop a rowdy nigger at a party with one fucking hit to the solar plexus (although he had to jet after that because 7 of his homies decided to help out).
So? I've hospitalised people with one punch to the face (that was a long time ago).

It doesn't mean anything, it's just that people are not as tough and resilient as you think they are. We're all made out of flesh, muscle, bone, tendons... and about the only thing of these which is significantly increased in tensile strength by hard training, is muscle (and not by all that much).
 
Old August 27th, 2005 #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by einzelwesen
So? I've hospitalised people with one punch to the face (that was a long time ago).

It doesn't mean anything, it's just that people are not as tough and resilient as you think they are. We're all made out of flesh, muscle, bone, tendons... and about the only thing of these which is significantly increased in tensile strength by hard training, is muscle (and not by all that much).
What's your point besides "we're all made of flesh"? That martial arts training is useless? I saw an asian kid with a black belt drop a nigger after being attacked with one quick and quiet blow, and it was cool as shit. It's an anecdotal story, and there are many in this thread.

Last edited by Anima Eternae; August 27th, 2005 at 03:21 AM.
 
Old August 27th, 2005 #34
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You speak like a person who doesn't have much opportunity to do a lot of fighting, Anima, and good for you, too.

My point is that no matter how 'tough' a person is, or is meant to be, there's parts of a person which remain as vulnerable as they ever were. There's a fuck lot of nerves which converge in the area of the solar plexus, and it hardly takes a martial artist to know that punching someone there is going to hurt badly.

Now, if he'd taken on all of the other guy's friends as well, then I'd be impressed. Heh heh.
 
Old August 27th, 2005 #35
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The way I heard it, "martial arts" as we know it spread eastward from the greeks. Our little yellow buddies have always taken our knowledge and found some corners to cut.

"Martial Arts" just means the science of fighting. We made better bows and arrows, better steel tubes(firearms) so we wouldn't have to block punches and kicks. The slants got left behind. Try and block a bullet, chink.

I think we outdid them in weaponless fighting too, and still can.

When you look close at greek wrestling and english swordsmanship you see hundreds of combinations. The orientals just accepted what we were lending to them. They did some neat stuff with it.
 
Old August 27th, 2005 #36
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Martial arts developed wherever armies existed, so in essence they were everywhere. Asians actually believe(though logic would cast doubt) that jujitsu, what they consider the father of their martial arts, was brought to China by Bodhidharma, and Aryan(Asian art often portrays his Aryan features) from India who brought Buddhism as well. So as you can see they are not so uptight about where their martial arts allegedly come from, especially since they know full well that this is essentially a legend and it is highly unlikely that one man invented jujitsu.
 
Old August 28th, 2005 #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.P. Slovjanski
Martial arts developed wherever armies existed, so in essence they were everywhere. Asians actually believe(though logic would cast doubt) that jujitsu, what they consider the father of their martial arts, was brought to China by Bodhidharma, and Aryan(Asian art often portrays his Aryan features) from India who brought Buddhism as well. So as you can see they are not so uptight about where their martial arts allegedly come from, especially since they know full well that this is essentially a legend and it is highly unlikely that one man invented jujitsu.
As a matter of fact, Chinese are notoriously uptight racialist chauvinists. Many of them have been claiming that Chinese boxing goes back to the period of the yellow emperor, predating the vajramushti system of the Indian ksatryia who also claim to be the oldest. So if the chinese have a legend about a blue-eyed devil introducing zen and physical and spiritual exercises to chinese monks, it probably has more than a kernel of truth in it, and for the chinese this would be a grudging admission.
 
Old August 28th, 2005 #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronen
As a matter of fact, Chinese are notoriously uptight racialist chauvinists. Many of them have been claiming that Chinese boxing goes back to the period of the yellow emperor, predating the vajramushti system of the Indian ksatryia who also claim to be the oldest. So if the chinese have a legend about a blue-eyed devil introducing zen and physical and spiritual exercises to chinese monks, it probably has more than a kernel of truth in it, and for the chinese this would be a grudging admission.


I think the Bodhidharma thing is actually more popular in Japan, where jujitsu was king for so long. Chinese are obsessed with their Shaolin Kung Fu Wing Chun crap and they have got to be pretty pissed that after over 1,000 years Kung Fu doesn't stand a chance in the ring against guys whose total martial arts experience might have been high school/college wrestling.
 
Old August 30th, 2005 #39
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Han Chinese laugh like Jews at such debates. With a billion of them, with decent IQs, ethnically cohesive as anybody, politically united in a Chink homeland under a NS style authoritarian government, and an increasing proportion of the durable goods used in the world manufactured in their neck of the woods, and a cohesive Diaspora to boot, even if we get the Jew foot of our necks there's no guarantee we will outlive the Chinks.

And every year we spend dicking around with the Jews and the rest of the shits, we lose a little more precious time and energy which will be needed to hold our turf against the Chinks.

So wushu sucks ass. And to the Han that means very little. It's about like calling Woody Allen a puss. Sure he is. And that Jew pussy's millions will buy an army of cops and lawyers to fuck your life up should you ever so much as spit on the sidewalk alongside his disgusting Jew feet.

So I hope for all this karate talk, people will want to work on some real power and not just the most primitive kind, ie, the ability to kick another guy's ass.
 
Old August 31st, 2005 #40
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Good on you for saying so, AE. Being tough, being able to fight, essentially isn't shit- it's handy, sure, but at the end of the day the smart outlive the strong. And that's what life is, an endurance contest. Look at all the people who were strong, but were simply eclipsed by a better organised and more cohesive occupying force.

The Maori, to give just one of about a million examples, are collectively as tough a people as you're likely to meet, but even they essentially put up no resistance at all when the British came.
 
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