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Old May 26th, 2010 #61
Xuxalina Rihhia
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Originally Posted by Derrick MacThomas View Post
Do not judge all martial arts and martial artists on the basis of this one experience.
I am a student of Shotokan karate and I have taken a knife off a street thug.
The sequence for a standard engagement of this type goes like this: deflect, disarm, kill. This should be done and dusted well within five seconds of the appearance of the knife.
Shotokan was developed in Okinowa as an evolution of Kung Fu, where the Okinowans (who were not allowed to possess weapons) had to take down Samauri on both foot and horseback.
I am a long way from the top of the Shotokan food chain.
My Sensei used to be an army unarmed combat instructor. Shotokan is the martial art taught to members of the Japan Self Defence Force. You may find it interesting to put Shotokan into a YouTube search and watch the Japanese military video that will come up as one of the search results.
I doubt very much that anyone who attacked someone at the level of my Sensei with a knife or even a sword would live to tell the tale. The style was developed with that sort of confrontation in mind.
The attacker would not only have to be very fast, he would have to be determined as hell to WIN/kill the karateka.

YouTube- Japan Military Shotokan Karate
Police Shotokan--very different from the normal Shotokan of the dojos.
 
Old July 5th, 2010 #62
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Who the hell is going to be walking around with a sword? This smacks of juvenile fantasy.

Anyway, European fencing is the best civilian sword art. The Katana and it's method of delivery (slash) is slower and has lesser reach than the rapier. That's because the Katana wielding swordsman was trying to penetrate armor. European civilian swordfighting evolved under conditions of no-armor--thus speed was of the upmost importance.

And if we're talking about PRACTICAL weapon-bases martial arts--escrima is the most useful.

I agree with the person that said Shotokan is a very good unarmed fighting style--IF you plan to stay with it long term. It's very good, but it has a steep learning curve. If you want to pick up something that's not so comprehensive, but useful at an earlier stage, learn boxing.
 
Old July 6th, 2010 #63
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Originally Posted by J. Holmes View Post
Who the hell is going to be walking around with a sword? This smacks of juvenile fantasy.

Anyway, European fencing is the best civilian sword art. The Katana and it's method of delivery (slash) is slower and has lesser reach than the rapier. That's because the Katana wielding swordsman was trying to penetrate armor. European civilian swordfighting evolved under conditions of no-armor--thus speed was of the upmost importance.
What are you trying to do to an opponent? The fact that thrust attacks have been favored down through time as being more lethal (potentially anyway) is balanced by the fact that slashing wounds on almost any area of the body have more immediately disabling effect by far. Add the fact that thrusts are actually slower than cuts in actual combat (Read the "Paradoxes of defense," by George Silver. He explains the matter very well) and you see the truth, more often then not, lies somewhere in the middle.

Factoid: Did you know that swords don't cut through armor? They weren't designed to. Least of all the japanese sword. They were used to cut around the armor, behind knees, under the arms, beneath the rims of helms or under neck protections, beneath maile skirts, etc. This was as true in japan as it was in europe. The sword was never intended nor used as a primary battlefield weapon. It was a sidearm to be used when spears and polearms were broken or lost.
 
Old July 6th, 2010 #64
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Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes View Post
the story of technology and society made thrusting the superior tactic. firearms and social closeness made armor obsolete. without the problem of armor, there is no contest. thrusting is more efficient. slashing is just a method of whacking through armor. good armor just deflects a thrust in the old days of yore in europe you had to hack through it. then firearms and crossbows and the superior use of longbows all came together to slow and reverse the utility of chain and plate combo armor. over time less and less useful.

think about it in terms of engineering. how does a bullet kill, like a bludgeon or a slashing weapon? no a penetrating one.

slashing is inefficient. thrusting is efficient. where are knives used the most in society? jail. always a thrusting shiv is prefered to some half assed slashing deal like a razor melted into a toothbrush. what a piece of crap that would be. one would always prefer a sharpened screwdriver or something like that if you could get it.
For the neck, slashing is good, and will kill the enemy 9 times out of 10 (if you knew what you were slashing).
A thrust to the neck relies on alot more accuracy making the percentage chance of the survival of your attacker/enemy alot higher.
As for the body, (unless you are going for specif arteries that are easily exposed) a thrusting motion would be more beneficial because of the higher odds of penetrating and puncturing vital organs.
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Old July 6th, 2010 #65
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I have seen several instances of a fencer beating a kendoka. The fencer is just too fast. People don't like to admit that kendo is slower because they've invested all this time in learning it--but it's just not as good for civilian combat as fencing. But yes, it's still very good.

And the katana was in fact used for cutting armor. Many of the innovations in Japanese armor were made due to the the swords cutting the numerous ties that hold the lamellar armor in place. These ties run all over the armor--not just the legs and joints. Later on the Japanese adapted superior European plate armor.

A sword never could cut ANY part of full plating--joints or otherwise. In fact, duels often degenerated into wrestling matches. Full plate was the cause for the shift to more bludgeoning type weapons--or weapons designed specifically for piercing--such as the 'estoc'.

But none of these are useful in a practical sense. Some people enjoy doing it as a hobby and that's fine.
 
Old July 6th, 2010 #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Holmes View Post
And the katana was in fact used for cutting armor. Many of the innovations in Japanese armor were made due to the the swords cutting the numerous ties that hold the lamellar armor in place. These ties run all over the armor--not just the legs and joints. Later on the Japanese adapted superior European plate armor
Semantics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Holmes View Post
I have seen several instances of a fencer beating a kendoka. The fencer is just too fast. People don't like to admit that kendo is slower because they've invested all this time in learning it--but it's just not as good for civilian combat as fencing. But yes, it's still very good.
Any half-assed spearman would break through either sword-form and kill the wielder nine times out of every ten. Let's all carry spears, while we're still tripping through 1600 AD.
 
Old July 6th, 2010 #67
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Originally Posted by ray bateson View Post
Semantics.



Any half-assed spearman would break through either sword-form and kill the wielder nine times out of every ten. Let's all carry spears, while we're still tripping through 1600 AD.
There's nothing semantic about it. Advances in lamellar armor were made because it was easy to sever the ties that held the chest piece in place. After a few slashes a man's chest was exposed.

And I'm not sure why you're promoting spears--if you read my last post, you'll see I said swords are impractical. The Japanese didn't usually use swords for war--they used yari(spear) and yumi(bow). The sword was a secondary weapon.

The best thing to do today is carry a knife and learn escrima.
 
Old July 6th, 2010 #68
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Originally Posted by J. Holmes View Post
There's nothing semantic about it. Advances in lamellar armor were made because it was easy to sever the ties that held the chest piece in place. After a few slashes a man's chest was exposed.

And I'm not sure why you're promoting spears--if you read my last post, you'll see I said swords are impractical. The Japanese didn't usually use swords for war--they used yari(spear) and yumi(bow). The sword was a secondary weapon.

The best thing to do today is carry a knife and learn escrima.
I had to point that out. Saying armor when you mean to say armor lacing is going to be misleading.

Also, unless civilian wear of swords is making a comeback, any discussion of dueling forms is flight of fancy. So why not consider a spear? They're not called "the king of weapons" for nothing.

The last sentence is agreeable, except that I'd include 'large handgun' and substitute 'knife' for 'machete'.
 
Old July 6th, 2010 #69
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Originally Posted by ray bateson View Post
I had to point that out. Saying armor when you mean to say armor lacing is going to be misleading.

Also, unless civilian wear of swords is making a comeback, any discussion of dueling forms is flight of fancy. So why not consider a spear? They're not called "the king of weapons" for nothing.

The last sentence is agreeable, except that I'd include 'large handgun' and substitute 'knife' for 'machete'.
If 'all hell broke lose' a machete would be a reasonable choice : )
I'm talking about right now though.
And yes, the spear is king of the battlefield--absolutely.
 
Old July 8th, 2010 #70
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Machetes worked well for the Hutu, should for us.
 
Old August 20th, 2010 #71
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Default Edged Weapons - Cutting vs. Thrusting

On the farthest edge of the cutting side of this question is the chinese dadao. What's essentially a sword-shaped viking axe. A mass-market true reproduction has never existed, actually, they've never existed at any price. Only D. Guertin used to make some, but closed up like eight years ago. ... I've owned the earlier model hanwei dadao and found it to be a well-tempered and serviceable blade, great geometry and taper, but a bit too thin for combat or really hard shocks; nothing so far that could be called a true reproduction. However, they just updated the design. They just doubled the blade thickness. Doubled it. And assuming the use of distal taper and heat-treatment is kept consistent (hanwei QC is easily 10x what it was four years ago), it'd not be speaking too soon to say the day has finally come. Being a firm proponent of the cut, hell yes, I'm buying one.

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Old October 1st, 2010 #72
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Old October 2nd, 2010 #73
Xuxalina Rihhia
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Originally Posted by ray bateson View Post
On the farthest edge of the cutting side of this question is the chinese dadao. What's essentially a sword-shaped viking axe. A mass-market true reproduction has never existed, actually, they've never existed at any price. Only D. Guertin used to make some, but closed up like eight years ago. ... I've owned the earlier model hanwei dadao and found it to be a well-tempered and serviceable blade, great geometry and taper, but a bit too thin for combat or really hard shocks; nothing so far that could be called a true reproduction. However, they just updated the design. They just doubled the blade thickness. Doubled it. And assuming the use of distal taper and heat-treatment is kept consistent (hanwei QC is easily 10x what it was four years ago), it'd not be speaking too soon to say the day has finally come. Being a firm proponent of the cut, hell yes, I'm buying one.


Also, you can still stab with it if you have to, as well.
 
Old December 17th, 2010 #74
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With many swords both techniques can work.. the thrust opens you up more to counter attack, but it can be more deadly

In JKD (I teach it) we normally stay "outside" and cut.. you know even with a sword the cut can be just as effective as a thrust.. if your opponent exposes his wrist and you take it off with a cut, that's pretty debilitating, right there

With a short blade.. a lot more realistic in normal times..cuts are the only way to go.. watch these



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Old December 17th, 2010 #75
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Cold Steel makes that DaDao. I've handled them but they were too heavy, unbalanced and had too much handle vs blade for my taste. Would make a superb brush cutter/tool though, which I see as it's primary modern purpose..


Out of my large medieval collection (which includes mail and helmets, shields and many weapons types) if called to use them in some fantasy scenario my favorite swords are (two handed) my Scottish War Sword, (I'm kneeling with it in my avatar) which is a shorter, lighter, faster Claymore but with a nice point and is not too heavy to be used one handed for a short time, and (for one hand use) my Damascus Viking sword.. 2 lbs and lightning fast, can be wielded for a long time.. I like it much better than any of my Katanas

In reality (back to Earth) my choice for combat would be one of my Ontario Blackie Collins machetes (they can take amazing abuse) and or my Junglee short sword, which is 1 lb and razor sharp AUS8 stainless. The Junglee is a better overall weapon and the machete is a better tool. The machete is a LOT cheaper and can take a razor edge as well as being able to drop small trees, I've cut through a 10 inch red alder in 10 minutes with one!

Ontario machete. I keep an oiled Stihl flat chainsaw file (fits my 066 magnum chainsaw too) in the sheath for sharpening:


Junglee Short Sword.. comes with a sturdy Kydex sheath. Mine is hanging with my recon pack

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Old December 17th, 2010 #76
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Originally Posted by WIGANMIKE View Post
I disagree comrade, sorry..

You don't have to be a expert in knife techniques to use a knife, a frightened woman, a mad man, a drug dealer, is very dangerous with any slashing style knife, most thugs use machettes as there main weapon, exception of guns..

esp in England, now how many of them have knife fighting exp?
It is a slashing tool, its used that way, you get a angry man running at me with hate in his eyes brother, slashing madly, with a machette, I'm running in the opposite direction as fast as I can..


You see in hospitals the victims of knife attacks regular, are these all trained? in my home town, there is hundreds of people with facial scars due to attacks of a knife, or knife fights, were they slashed there face and bodies..
The most dangerous attacker is a crazy man, not a trained one

Having said that the difference is (if you learn Kali style techniques and also use some fencing footwork) your chances of taking hits will be reduced to the same level that your damage potential increases. We stay outside if possible and "defang the snake" with debilitating cuts. That is a good thing
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Old December 17th, 2010 #77
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Originally Posted by Bwana View Post
I'm going with the long knife and tomahawk. We have .50s for trouble a mile away, .308s for anything more than 50 yards, .22 snipers, carbines and pistols. For close and personal, I'm training myself with the tomahawk. Now don't think of Mel Gibson, just think of any example of our ancestors using a sword when we fought England, we could have made swords but we made knives and tomahawks.
Um, actually "hangers" and sabers were quite common use in the Revolutionary army and by Britain. I have a book on the arms of that conflict and there are dozens of styles depicted
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Old December 17th, 2010 #78
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Originally Posted by cillian View Post
I've noticed that in movies they always have the hero using a sword, there is something heroic about them and maybe all the slashing looks better on the camera. Yet historically the main weapon for just about every army was the spear, which evolved into the pike for footmen and the lance for horsemen, even the vikings used spears even though we think of them as wielding axes.
The spear is the king of close quarter battle

The sword is the queen.. they were almost always a backup weapon (Great swords aside)

In a medieval situation my primary weapon would be a longbow, then a good 6 to 7 foot spear, then an appropriate sword
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Old December 17th, 2010 #79
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Originally Posted by Rob MacGregor View Post
Cold Steel makes that DaDao. I've handled them but they were too heavy, unbalanced and had too much handle vs blade for my taste. Would make a superb brush cutter/tool though, which I see as it's primary modern purpose..
Both dadao shown in my pictures are made by hanwei, if you missed that part. But in that most modern people inappropriately view swords as just large knives or machetes, you're correct. They better stay with machetes.
 
Old December 18th, 2010 #80
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Originally Posted by ray bateson View Post
Both dadao shown in my pictures are made by hanwei, if you missed that part. But in that most modern people inappropriately view swords as just large knives or machetes, you're correct. They better stay with machetes.
I used to sell CAS/Hanwei and can still obtain it wholesale.. I like some of their weapons quite a bit.. the damascus Viking sword I have and mentioned is one of theirs...the Godfried model. I have some of their pikes and spears as well, great values. You have to make/fit your own shafts, I like that because I have "preferences"

Nothing wrong with a well sharpened machete for our inexperienced brothers.. they can do the job.. just watch that follow-through and where you aim, it should be away from (your) anatomy

A great way to learn how to use a machete is brush clearing.. wear leather gloves and keep the free hand clear of the blade, wear heavy leather boots, start out slow and stop working before you get tired is my best advice there. Also have a real med kit handy
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