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Old September 17th, 2005 #21
Goy_Wonder
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Quote:
BJJ is a style that relies on time and opportunity
What style doesn't?

Quote:
a grappling match can take up to 30 minutes or even longer
I suggested it would be useful against someone with only basic or no grappling skills, which is most of the population.

Quote:
Also in my experience I have never see an actual fight go to the ground, the fight was over before it got to that point.
So, you've only seen fights where people get hit and go unconscious as they are falling?

Quote:
Your average street fighter will hit you with what ever is handy and then gouge your eyes right before he hits you in the groin. There are no immediate rules on the street, and your only goal is to live not to win and do a victory dance. All street fighters fight dirty, meaning they will nail you before you get a chance to react, fair play is left on Gunsmoke so more than likely they will knock you out with the first punch.
Does this make the average street fighter some invincible behemoth who can anticipate and counter every defense / offense you throw at him? While you are bowing at the beginning of the fight, he is kicking you in the head. And if you tap out, you mean he will just continue to choke you til you die? I always thought you could ask for a re-do, if you got off to a bad start. And I'd have to deduct 2 points for a groin shot in a street fight.

Quote:
But while you are at hands distance from his ankle your face will be in prime kicking distance from his other foot.
I wasn't implying that the rest of your body lays limp while you vainly grasp at his ankle. It's a full body maneuver.

Quote:
because the time you could be unbuckling a knife or whatever you could be smashing your attacker with a nearby piece of driftwood or whatever else is handy.
Ah, so a handgun in a holster, somewhat hidden by a loose jacket, right next to your hand is hard to get to, while finding a piece of driftwood or some other graspable object is abundant and easy to find. You'll have to explain where you find driftwood in the "street". There aren't many streams flowing through my local community.

Quote:
Stretch for 15 minutes every morning, then you will be prepared physically more so than your attacker.
There we have it guys, just stretch 15 minutes every morning & keep an eye out for driftwood. Don't waste your time learning martial arts or carrying a silly deadly weapon.

Good luck.
 
Old September 17th, 2005 #22
J.P. Slovjanski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
I see often people asking what is the proper discipline, however there is no style that wil fit everyone. If you are short go for grappling, if you are tall go for striking as tall people with long arms lose leverage up close. If you are super powerful just maul your opponent.
Everyone needs to know how to grapple. Time and time again it has been proven that a "pure" grappler can beat a striker while the reverse is not true.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
What about the 15% that don’t? Also what if you are facing more than one opponent?
How are you going to strike hard enough to even your odds against more than one opponent if grappling won't work?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Grappling is a last ditch effort when everything else has failed.

Wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
A competent teacher or fighter will tell you the last place you want to be is on the ground in a fight.
A bullshit artist will tell you this, particularly one having a background in Kung Fu. Grappling is not simply groundfighting, it also involves throws, trips, clinching(which makes striking easier) and standing submissions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
While you are fighting one his buddy will stomp you, I know this from experience.
While you are standing up punching one guy another will hit you from the side, it doesn't matter either way. Now if you can THROW the first guy and clinch with the second you might have a chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Also the closer you are to your opponent the better chance he has of pulling a knife, fighting rings or whatever and injuring you seriously.
How is this even logical? You close the distance and tie up an opponent to NEGATE HIS ABILITY TO MOVE.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
BJJ is a style that relies on time and opportunity, in an actual street fight you have about 5 seconds average where a grappling match can take up to 30 minutes or even longer.
What the HELL are you talking about? The grappling match between Kimura and Helio Gracie is considered one of the longest in history and it was only 12 MINUTES! You don't know jack about BJJ. BJJ is actually a system that DOESN'T require nearly as much timing because its positional strategy and concept of control allows you to stall for time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Also in my experience I have never see an actual fight go to the ground, the fight was over before it got to that point.
Yet for some reason police and military agencies around the world support the statement that most fights go to the ground. Look at it this way, you can go through life thinking that you won't go to the ground in a fight. But if you DO go there, what are you going to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Your average street fighter will hit you with what ever is handy and then gouge your eyes right before he hits you in the groin.
Eye gouching and groin hits sound terrifying in theory but anyone who has experienced both frequently can tell you that they are NOT fight-enders as everyone believes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
There are no immediate rules on the street, and your only goal is to live not to win and do a victory dance. All street fighters fight dirty, meaning they will nail you before you get a chance to react, fair play is left on Gunsmoke so more than likely they will knock you out with the first punch.
Where did you get the idea that things like BJJ or Judo need "fair play"? When you take away the rules of Judo or competition BJJ you are only giving the grappler MORE of an advantage that he wouldn't have in the ring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Also remember this is in a tournament with rules, things change where there are no rules.
As said above, it just gives the grappler MORE advantage.





Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
I wouldn’t advocate carrying a weapon even with a CCW if for no other reason than a white man won’t get a fair shake in court even if he is simply caught with a weapon. Or for no other reason that it must be handy and accessible in less than a second. You have to practice getting to it, because the time you could be unbuckling a knife or whatever you could be smashing your attacker with a nearby piece of driftwood or whatever else is handy.
For once we agree on something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Actual fighting is an instinct, while martial arts unless a lifetime devotion is only exercise to get you in shape. The best advice is to be ready. Stretch for 15 minutes every morning, then you will be prepared physically more so than your attacker. A person that is a thug usually doesn’t prepare his body as such. And if he does you have evened out the playing field a little bit more.

This is too broad a statement. There are many martial arts to which you can dedicate your life and still not be able to fight. Conversely there are some martial arts where a recreational knowledge can make you almost lethal. My rule is this:

If your martial art is such that you can master it yet have absolutely no advantage over an equal opponent with no training- it just might be useless.
 
Old September 17th, 2005 #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngrh8r
Shit, if someone wants to loan or copy Matt Furey's books and vids for me, I'd be more than happy to give it a try and report back. Until I see the effectiveness proven, Matt's prices are out of my budget.
I don't think we should recommend any self-training to a MA newbie, anyway.
Ahem*cough**wheeze**p2p**sniffle*
huh? oh 'scuse me
The stuff I got From Furey is mainly the conditioning.Its pretty tame stuff but super-effective.Old -schoool.
I agree with some joint locks,a few throws,A lotta lotta footwork.
I know Bruce Lee is a gook,but he was a little badass,and he wrote some really good books on theory.His Jeet Kune Do has been commercialized as of late as has BJJ.All these classes teach are tourny stuff.I Have stolen many moves from many places,lol,Nothing, I repeat NOTHING beats experience.What works for me may not work for you and vice versa.You need a good sparring partner who is really open to new stuff.I was taught TKD when I was younger by an Ex-Marine who,as he taught me, told me to learn other stuff and not rely on it.When I asked why he said in TKD we teach fighting with a cane,know why?I said I dunno weapon skill?Laughing he said no TKD can be so self brutalizing when you age you will need that cane.
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Old September 17th, 2005 #24
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Slovjansky, you're a fucking idiot if you think that 12 minutes is the longest grappling bout. I've seen Sakuraba go near the hour mark. This thread was a request from a good White man hoping for some advice. Maybe try to help him out a little, instead of running your kike mouth and trying to shoot down what everyone else says. EricTheRed, I strongly advise you to disregard what Slovjansky says. He's clearly a little pussy who fancies himself some type of master after watching a few Gracie vids.
Once again, BJJ is great in the ring, but what's gonna happen when you put someone in a triangle choke while he has 3 or 4 buddies waiting to back him up? Takedowns are obviously useful in a combat situation, but very few BJJ schools focus on this aspect of grappling, whereas it is an integral part of Judo and traditional jujutsu.
 
Old September 17th, 2005 #25
J.P. Slovjanski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngrh8r
Slovjansky, you're a fucking idiot if you think that 12 minutes is the longest grappling bout. I've seen Sakuraba go near the hour mark. This thread was a request from a good White man hoping for some advice. Maybe try to help him out a little, instead of running your kike mouth and trying to shoot down what everyone else says. EricTheRed, I strongly advise you to disregard what Slovjansky says. He's clearly a little pussy who fancies himself some type of master after watching a few Gracie vids.
Once again, BJJ is great in the ring, but what's gonna happen when you put someone in a triangle choke while he has 3 or 4 buddies waiting to back him up? Takedowns are obviously useful in a combat situation, but very few BJJ schools focus on this aspect of grappling, whereas it is an integral part of Judo and traditional jujutsu.


Actually you are the fucking idiot because I am actually a member of a Gracie-affiliated Jujitsu school and you are most likely- not. What happens in your little scenario with 3 to 4 guys? You get your ass kicked, that's what happens. There is no decent unarmed method of defeating multiple opponents.

What you FAIL miserable to realize about BJJ and grappling in general is that there is no rule that says you MUST go to the ground, pull guard, use a choke, armbar, etc. You use COMMON sense. You don't know jack shit if you think some BJJ instructor would tell you to pull guard on the first in a group of opponents.
 
Old September 17th, 2005 #26
ngrh8r
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Well, the fact that you describe your dojo as "Gracie-affiliated" makes it clear
that it's another McDojo who paid a few fees for the right to use the Gracie name. Meanwhile, while you indulge in your homoerotic horseplay, I train, spar and occasionally fight members of various styles, includiing BJJ. And I've tapped out quite a few of your black belts, too. I'd be more than happy to arrange an opportunity for you to prove yourself. I live in New Jersey, but I'd be willing to travel a couple hours to take on you and 2 or 3 of your buddies from the dojo. Let me know, girlyman. :box:
 
Old September 17th, 2005 #27
Pale Horse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.P. Slovjanski
What happens in your little scenario with 3 to 4 guys? You get your ass kicked, that's what happens. There is no decent unarmed method of defeating multiple opponents.
Lol,I disagree.There are many good tactics for that.I suggest some JKD books to improve your theory.Even by that statement, you are already defeated before the first blow is thrown.When I did a little time , I saw people like you justifying bending over and sacrificing their manhood in order to save a small portion of their blood.We called them punks?Wanna be muh bitch?Lol
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Old September 17th, 2005 #28
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Even though I personally like Erle’s style better, if time is a factor I highly recommend Dillman. The only problem is Dillman has brute strength (to be small in stature) that is either natural or requires a lifetime of training. Unlike JP’s Gracie school, Dillman is highly accessible. One thing he did though that is interesting is bought Muhammad Ali’s old training grounds in Kentucky and converted it. I didn’t like that he bought a black persons place but I do like that he now personally trains people in Kentucky. I really want to go there since it is close to my new home, but I am strongly conflicted about being on the same grounds as groids have trained.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes
Yep, when we found out about Dillman, went to some seminars, we were amazed all the grappling in our forms that we had no clue about. You know the old set of TKD forms were mostly the same as the Okinawan karate ones. They never tell you that, but having studied Shorin Ryu as well I can say there's a huge overlap.


I was going to ignore your post completely but this huge whopper came about, a lie that powerful can only come from a Jew almost knocked me out of my chair. You may not be able to grapple your way to victory but there is no doubt you could lie your way through. BTW tell us about your expert knowledge in white nationalism and WTC blueprints while you are at it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.P. Slovjanski
Actually you are the idiot because I am actually a member of a Gracie-affiliated Jujitsu school and you are most likely- not.
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Old September 18th, 2005 #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
Lol,I disagree.There are many good tactics for that.I suggest some JKD books to improve your theory.Even by that statement, you are already defeated before the first blow is thrown.When I did a little time , I saw people like you justifying bending over and sacrificing their manhood in order to save a small portion of their blood.We called them punks?Wanna be muh bitch?Lol

Fucking A! Thuggish types rarely work well as a team, and multiple attackers often get in each others way more than they help. Bruce Lee definitely wrote some gems regarding these situations. It's too bad that JKD schools these days are all a bunch of crap capitalizing on the name.
 
Old September 18th, 2005 #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered
I'd like to start taking some lessons in some form of fighting...Any suggestions for a particular form would be appreciated.
Enter a relationship with an obnoxious belligerent:box:woman. She'll hone your aggressiveness in no time flat. Maybe give Stronza a try
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Old September 18th, 2005 #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kind Lampshade Maker
Enter a relationship with an obnoxious belligerent:box:woman. She'll hone your aggressiveness in no time flat. Maybe give Stronza a try
Best suggestion yet!

Hey Stronza, wrestle ya for a beer?
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Old September 18th, 2005 #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stronza
I don't drink beer (or any other alcohol), so you will have to find some other obnoxious, belligerent woman to have a relationship with in the hopes of honing your aggressiveness.

But plain ol' Indian wrestling, just for fun, why not.
Your abstinence from alcohol should be the reason you are so aggressive and obnoxious. Nevertheless, I'll take you up on that match, if I get to indulge in drink myself
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Old September 18th, 2005 #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stronza
Can't Indian-wrestle a 5'1" woman without benefit of a drug first?
I've never tried. If wrestling a 5 foot one woman was always fun while buzzing, what reason would I have had for performing sober?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stronza
Lack of alcohol might be the cause of my awful personality, but when you've got children, you can't go preaching to them to avoid drink & drug & whatnot, whilst partaking of it yourself.
And don't ask me why (I don't know), but my children adore me!
Mine like me too. That's probably to do with the fact that I don't preach to them that they shouldn't do what I do. If I don't bring up the subject, why should they ask?
By the way. Do Indians wrestle naked?
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Old September 18th, 2005 #34
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I prefer to use a discipline called MPED, by Sauer and Sons.

MPED=Mechanical Projectile Emission Device. In just one simple step—pulling the index finger in a rearward motion—the opponent is sent to the ground flailing and writhing in agony by a ˝ “ hollow point projectile.

Seriously though, I worked with a guy who trained at a Gracie jujitsu facility and was pretty darn good. I went to the gym with him a couple of times. Fuck man, those arm bars are brutal! Grappling in general seemed like a pretty useful discipline.

I am trying to learn a bit of a mix of boxing :box: (read: footwork), and grappling. Basically, I’m going to try not to go down, but if I do, I’ll be ready with some grappling techniques.
 
Old September 18th, 2005 #35
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There are ways to fight more than one person at a time, but it's always a dicey thing which has a more than good chance of ending with you getting your arse kicked.

Always run away if you can, or at least make an advantageous retreat so as to improve your chances. A club or knife improves your chances more, though, or even a bottle. Hell, run away, and then surprise them around the corner with a knife or bottle, if you have to!

So grappling is only ground-work? Any 'striker' who thinks that is a 'striker' who has a good chance of ending up flat on his back with his ears ringing like a bell, and his opponent still on his feet.

Even if you're better at one thing or another, and favour it, properly understanding how the other 'camp' does things is important- but the most important thing of all is to know how to avoid getting taken by surprise, because if that happens, you're screwed no matter how much of a hard case you think you are.

This is the main drawback of one's fighting experience all being in a ring/dojo- you always see your enemy coming at you. As good a simulation as one-on-one is, it's not always the way that you'll have to fight in actual fact.

Quote:
MPED=Mechanical Projectile Emission Device.
Irish Karate...
 
Old September 19th, 2005 #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stronza
...There'd be no advantage to being naked; with pants on, the two participants could get a better grip on each other's leg, I imagine.
Of course ther's an advantage to getting naked for wrestling. One can get a grip on some love handles, extremities and various, otherwise hidden orifices to facilitate a successful pindown
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Old September 19th, 2005 #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stronza
For chrissake, KLM, I am talking about "Indian" wrestling.
For chrissake, Stronza, I am talking about wrestling you
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Old September 19th, 2005 #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stronza
Fer chrissake, you'd wax my ass...
As I would hot wax an automobile. In your case, I'll get humane, by waxing with body temperature substances
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Old September 19th, 2005 #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Gunn
I prefer to use a discipline called MPED, by Sauer and Sons.

MPED=Mechanical Projectile Emission Device. ........
Yeah, that's my style since I became a post-judo has been. But we have really fun tournaments:

http://www.ipsc.org/

http://www.idpa.com/

So far there's only one other board member that has admitted to this too. You up for it?
 
Old September 19th, 2005 #40
Rob Roy MacGregor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Gunn
I prefer to use a discipline called MPED, by Sauer and Sons.

MPED=Mechanical Projectile Emission Device. In just one simple step—pulling the index finger in a rearward motion—the opponent is sent to the ground flailing and writhing in agony by a ˝ “ hollow point projectile.
Great discipline for the disabled and/or elderly. As you get older things start to creak a little!


AE mentioned something a while back that looked like some good firearms training and competition.
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