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Old December 6th, 2005 #81
Matthaus Hetzenauer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes
You think so? Most real world "gunfights" occur in about that much space and reality is hardly as decisive as that. I'm not the expert, but I've read them for years. I also shoot regularly in timed competition and you'd be amazed how often people miss even up close when under pressure. Especially me!
Actually, most gunfights occur within 7'-10' -- at least according to the FBI stats I read years back. Kinda narrows the odds a bit.

Also, I know you shoot competition (I plan on getting into that myself at a range in Leesburg, Fl.) and I know somewhat of the pressure matches can bring to bear on shooters (I shot a 16 competitively in the military for a brief time). But, you're under pressure that's been instilled by the anticipation of competing -- you work yourself into it. I seriously doubt a potentially lethal run-in with a nigger is going to involve the shitskin getting all "nuvvus an' shit" about hitting his target in the kill zone -- there's simply not enough time.
 
Old December 6th, 2005 #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoaxThis
Actually, most gunfights occur within 7'-10' -- at least according to the FBI stats I read years back. Kinda narrows the odds a bit..
Right, you got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoaxThis
.....I know somewhat of the pressure matches can bring to bear on shooters (I shot a 16 competitively in the military for a brief time). But, you're under pressure that's been instilled by the anticipation of competing -- you work yourself into it. ..
OK, true enough. Hopefully one gets to the point where you get over that. My scores have gotten better over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoaxThis
.....I seriously doubt a potentially lethal run-in with a nigger is going to involve the shitskin getting all "nuvvus an' shit" about hitting his target in the kill zone -- there's simply not enough time.
Well, since we're talking self defense only here-- I'm seeing some boon groid hitting on the crack pipe, getting all hyped up to committ crime or whatever, because they are of low moral quality and they needto build up their nerve, and so I don't see the average low quality ape as being able to successfully STOP me if I have a decent cudgel and I am 20 feet or less away, and he has a small caliber revolver and I am in fear of my life and know that I am legally justified to cave that fucking nigger's head in like a rotton pumpkin. I think it is no better than 50-50 chances and unless I get hit in the head, spine, pelvis, or heart, there will be justice served.
 
Old December 6th, 2005 #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes



Well, since we're talking self defense only here-- I'm seeing some boon groid hitting on the crack pipe, getting all hyped up to committ crime or whatever, because they are of low moral quality and they needto build up their nerve, and so I don't see the average low quality ape as being able to successfully STOP me if I have a decent cudgel and I am 20 feet or less away, and he has a small caliber revolver and I am in fear of my life and know that I am legally justified to cave that fucking nigger's head in like a rotton pumpkin. I think it is no better than 50-50 chances and unless I get hit in the head, spine, pelvis, or heart, there will be justice served.
Agreed. The one good thing about confronting a "nigger on the trigger" is that they never develop the disciplinary skills of proper combat-shooting techniques. No matter what the distance -- and I've seen this in the military time and again -- they just point and pull.
 
Old December 6th, 2005 #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenab
You're 20 feet from a nigger who has this itty bitty revolver. There's nowhere to run. You have a pipe in your hand. What's your odds of winning this engagement?

Jerry Abbott
Thanks for your measured reply JA. If a man walks round with a gun, or even armed with a grenade launcher, a couple of RPGs and bazooka slung over his butt like like an urban caricature of 'Rambo'; if "you're 20 feet from a nigger who has this itty bitty revolver and he pulls the trigger" - it matters little whether you are unarmed, carrying a length of Lead plumbing or whether you are kitted-out like Rambo - if rastus pulls the trigger on you.

The pre-emptive trigger-happy solution of blasting away at any potential threat in the form of bipedal denizens from the 'dark continent' that you may see - doesnt equate with everday reality.

BTW I am all in favour of training to acquire precision target shooting skills. I am a member of my local rifle club and use small bore '22 Anschutz and BSA match rifles and currently working to attain sufficient competency under club guidance to acquire NRA 'Sharpshooter' level marksmanship grade under its Qualification Program. In my heart of hearts, out there on the streets I know I am not likely to be off to buy my next root beer with an assault rifle slung over my shoulder - so for practical assault weapon purposes I know I will have to rely on other means for self-defense.
 
Old December 6th, 2005 #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes
I wouldnt give you 50-50 against a White person, but against a nigger I would.

Niggers can't aim worth spit. They have poor fine motor coordination. They dont do well in racing or shooting sports. Has a nigger ever won Bianchi cup or an olympic medal in shooting or Camp Perry? No way. There' stupid but they're smart enough to know they might as well get an automatic because "spray and pray" is their usual modality.

As for 20 feet, that's 7 yards. 2 seconds to get there. If I can jump first, and the nigger has to react, that gives me at least a half second to close the gap.

Nigger gets one shot, he better make it good. If he doesnt hit me in the pelvis, spine, heart or head, I'm gonna put a hurt on him.
Do you get first jump? I don't know. I do know that it takes me about two seconds to fire all six bullets in my .357 magnum, if I have a reason to shoot quickly. Against a White guy, I wouldn't give you 10%. Against a nigger, maybe 10%. Twenty feet is a very easy target distance, even for a snubby pistol, even for somebody who's never used a gun before. It's just too far to swing a club from. And you have to do more than hurt the nigger with your club. You have to either knock him out, knock the gun out of his hand, or kill him...with the first blow, or he gets to shoot you again from point-blank range while you're trying to cock back for another swing.
 
Old December 6th, 2005 #86
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I think one could go for a smashing pumpkin move, but the old kotegaishi on the gun hand disarm is supposed to work as well as anything.
 
Old December 6th, 2005 #87
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some very interesting debate here.....
My take on this is, if you can legally carry, then by all means do so.....if the laws in your particular area do not allow for any type of firearms carry, there may still be cases where it would be prudent to carry. You must be the judge of whether or not the risk of legal problems is worth it.
In my book, the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, but that does not change the de facto reality of the state overstepping its bounds, and victimizing those good citizens who choose to go about their business armed.
The other things to do, are to get some practical martial arts training -it MUST include sparring, so that you can learn how to react to the movements and strikes from an actual opponent. This also builds courage and confidence.
The other thing is to learn how identify and use "everyday" objects as weapons. In the course of a day, try evaluating everything that you come across, no matter how innocent looking, for it's potential as a weapon.
A sharpened #2 pencil. Imagine the close-range damage one of those could do when used by a very determined person. The key is to ACT when attacked, not freeze up. -You freeze up, you are as good as dead.
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Old December 7th, 2005 #88
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You entire premise is based on shooting someone at a distance. Sniping is murder pure and simple and any jury will convict you of such. A criminal wonít threaten you at 20 feet he will close the distance before he becomes a threat. If you shoot someone at 20 feet the prosecuting attorney will show that they were not a threat and you had reasonable distance to get out of harms way. Firefights from across the street are only common in ghettos and movies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenab
If he's within arm's reach, he might. The advantage to guns is that they solve the problem of distance.

Then begin shooting before the niggers get close. You do have to assume that they mean you trouble before they give warning of their intentions.
Yes and you bring more reason for tighter gun control thus taking away the future privileges of whites. Then you may cause many others to be victims of groids.
Quote:
Shoot, then. And if the state executes you, at least you've likely saved the lives of all of the White people who would otherwise have been among the victims of those particular niggers.
You get caught making one you go to prison no questions asked. That is the worst case the best case if you get an expensive lawyer and get fined $10,000.
Quote:
But with a silenced pistol, you can usually take out a sentry with ease. To be sure, silencers are usually illegal.
Full auto weapons are fantasy guns and a waste of ammo. Every competition shooter I have met has made this claim. I am sure you know the exception. You dump a lot of rounds with the hopes of hitting your target. Everyone knows you canít properly aim a weapon on full auto. As AE said the spray and spray ideology. If you are going to get a gun get a few and master them well. Practice daily. The scenarios you present are under the assumption the shooter is highly trained, experienced and completely calm in a life or death situation. Look at those LA bank robbers. Thousands of rounds fired while wearing body armor and they didnít actually kill anyone other than themselves, I live in America where do you live fantasyland? Remember these were hardened bank robbers who had previously beaten the system and carried illegal weapons. Their opponents were outgunned as well. One trained sniper could have taken both of them, but they were in a fire fight with automatic weapons and body armor and they still didnít kill anyone other than themselves.
Quote:
Failure to secure a full-auto weapon is yet another example of how to get killed, when among your foes there are those with full-auto weapons.
Again try shooting a moving target under pressure. Then factor in that the lighting may not be so well or the sun could be in your eyes. Your chances are better than you would think.
Quote:
Nonetheless, facts are facts. Nobody armed with only a pipe is going to beat anybody else with a pistol from across the room (at least a pistol is needed).
Easy to say difficult to do.
Quote:
Donít hesitate.
Luck? I am skilled but that is all I will say about that at this time.
Quote:
Do you trust this sort of luck to continue?
Very true and under ideal conditions a great thing. But how many gun owners are true marksmen who can make perfect shots with bad lighting and life or death pressure? Again I am sure you know the exceptions to the rule.
Quote:
Not true. Marksmanship is an acquired skill, and it can make all the difference in the world.
As is all my advice.
Quote:
Excellent advice.

Jerry Abbott
Try shooting a moving target at 20 feet. Hang up a cardboard cutout on a clothesline and have someone pull it towards you as it moves in the wind. Not try to shoot it, then have someone pouring cold water down your back this will give you an idea what it is like trying to shoot under pressure. This is also a tactic marine sniper drill instructors use on their students, the cold water thing that is or they usually yell at them while they are trying to make a shot.

Shooting competition has that much pressure now imagine your target moving with the added pressure that your life is at stake and you are being shot at or directly threatened. Couple that with the fact that you are about to take another life and may face life in prison or the death penalty. The pressure of a life ruining decision makes it that much more intense. Anyone on this board that claims they could be 100% calm and shoot to the best of their ability in that type of situation is a liar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes
I also shoot regularly in timed competition and you'd be amazed how often people miss even up close when under pressure. Especially me!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes
Niggers can't aim worth spit. They have poor fine motor coordination. They dont do well in racing or shooting sports. Has a nigger ever won Bianchi cup or an olympic medal in shooting or Camp Perry? No way.

Here lies another problem. Just as pressure can cause you to freeze, fear can cause you to shoot to soon. If you are carrying a gun and shoot without being able to prove just cause you will go to prison. If you pull your gun and threaten you will go to jail. Groid criminals can live their life with 20 outstanding warrants, however something like this would cramp most of our lives.

Then if you justly pull your gun you have to think of the consequences. Well anyway while someone is wildly blasting all 6 rounds in 2 seconds from their pistol, you must think about every round that didnít hit its target. Where does it land? Does it hit someoneís property? Does it hit innocent people?
Quote:
Originally Posted by antiZOG
some very interesting debate here.....
My take on this is, if you can legally carry, then by all means do so.....
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Last edited by Sean Martin; December 7th, 2005 at 03:12 AM.
 
Old December 7th, 2005 #89
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Back to the original topic. I went to a couple gunstores near Ashland today and I saw some of the junkiest looking 223ís I had ever seen. These were bushmasters and one of them weighed about 2 pounds. I have never held a gun that expensive and made that cheaply before. It had the tag of $750 and was almost entirely constructed of plastic. It had a fluted barrel and everything about it was plastic. Even the lower receiver felt like plastic. The other had a tag of $850 and the stock was in shambles. The entire gun was rickety at best. After holding those to guns I will say I wonít own a Bushmaster arms no matter what the gun shop owner says about them.

On the other hand I saw some rally nice Yugoslavian SKSís. And this one store had a used Smith and Wesson Shotgun with a 9 round tubular magazine for $225. That is an assault weapon. Ten rounds of 00 or 000 buck shells. With 50 or more pellets that is like firing 50 rounds into something. And you donít have to be a marksman to fire a 00 buck round effectively into your target at 10 yards. Then consider shooting half-ounce slugs through that sucker. Probably the most disheartening sound to an intruder is the chu chunk of a 12 gauge shotgun. One shot with that weapon at any distance under 30 feet even in extreme conditions and I wouldnít give someone a 1 in 10 chance.

I have shot the mossberg high cap shotguns and you can cycle them as fast as you want. I have never seen one jam in anyway. While I have never shot the Smith and Wesson ones I am sure they are better quality.

My ideal weapon would be either a Romanian AK ($300) or a high cap shotgun. That is a combo that is difficult to beat for the price.
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Old December 7th, 2005 #90
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By the way when you are closing the distance you donít move in a straight line. Many martial arts teach a drop and roll technique, which puts you at a 45-degree angle of your attacker and closes the distance quickly. When you do the roll you come up really fast at an angle that is difficult for your attacker to defend. And they way you are moving gives a difficult target to hit. This is for a distance of 12 feet or less depending on your height. When you come up you are at the perfect angle to deflect and control the weapon.

My teacher had us do this drill where 2 or 3 other students would get on either side of you with a club or knife (with the edges and tip dulled but still painful) and you had to escape using this method. If any student failed in his attempt to legitimately attack you he was then put in the circle and forced to evade. After the first wack across the shoulder (sometimes we had on head gear) back or whatever you learned to move really fast and make this thing work. They were not allowed to strike you in the head, not super realistic but a strike across the back gives you the picture to get out of the way really quickly.

My teacherís goal was to teach self-defense that actually worked in the street and we would some times go to the street (20 feet from his house) and try these things.

If I ever taught a martial arts class again I would incorporate the outdoors in my teaching. Getting in and out of cars, carrying groceries, jogging, opening doors and things of that nature. Most people learn in an open room on 3 inches of padding and have to experience in actual situations.

There is a lot of difference between falling on concrete and padding, and maneuvering in a 20-foot clear circle and bumping into tables and trees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes
I think one could go for a smashing pumpkin move, but the old kotegaishi on the gun hand disarm is supposed to work as well as anything.
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Old December 7th, 2005 #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Look at those LA bank robbers. Thousands of rounds fired while wearing body armor and they didnít actually kill anyone other than themselves, I live in America where do you live fantasyland? Remember these were hardened bank robbers who had previously beaten the system and carried illegal weapons. Their opponents were outgunned as well. One trained sniper could have taken both of them, but they were in a fire fight with automatic weapons and body armor and they still didnít kill anyone other than themselves.

Actually, trained snipers did take out the bankrobbers you're talking about -- they didn't "shoot themselves."
 
Old December 7th, 2005 #92
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The ones I am talking about are the ones they made that movie about. The ones that the cops shot one in the legs 30 times and the other one committed suicide. They may not have been in LA but they committed the crimes in California.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoaxThis
Actually, trained snipers did take out the bankrobbers you're talking about -- they didn't "shoot themselves."
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Old December 7th, 2005 #93
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Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
The ones I am talking about are the ones they made that movie about. The ones that the cops shot one in the legs 30 times and the other one committed suicide. They may not have been in LA but they committed the crimes in California.
I know "the ones" you're talking about. At least one of them was shot dead by a police sniper -- dropped him with a neck shot. I think the other was killed by snipers too, not sure though.
 
Old December 7th, 2005 #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Look at those LA bank robbers. Thousands of rounds fired while wearing body armor and they didnít actually kill anyone other than themselves, I live in America where do you live fantasyland? Remember these were hardened bank robbers who had previously beaten the system and carried illegal weapons. Their opponents were outgunned as well. One trained sniper could have taken both of them, but they were in a fire fight with automatic weapons and body armor and they still didnít kill anyone other than themselves.
Yet they held off what I believe was well over 100 cops for quite some time. If only two people can do that, imagine what 50 well-equipped people with better shooting skills could do.

Part of the reason those bank robbers didn't kill any cops (though they did shoot and wound several) is because they were relying on "spray-n-pray" shooting. Shooting weapons on full-auto empties a mag within seconds (thus leaving the gunner vulnerable at a potentially inopportune time), and makes aiming after the first shot nearly impossible. Full-auto fire in shoulder-fired weapons is basically useless except at very close range. Rapid semi-auto fire is almost always deadlier. Here's what a US military manual says:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-9/c07.htm#7_8

Quote:
The most important firing technique during modern, fast moving combat is rapid semiautomatic fire. Rapid-fire techniques are the key to hitting the short exposure, multiple, or moving targets described previously. If properly applied, rapid semiautomatic fire delivers a large volume of effective fire into a target area. The soldier intentionally fires a quick series of shots into the target area to assure a high probability of a hit.

...

When a soldier uses rapid semiautomatic fire properly, he sacrifices some accuracy to deliver a greater volume of effective fire to hit more targets. It is surprising how devastatingly accurate rapid fire can be. At ranges beyond 25 meters, rapid semiautomatic fire is superior to automatic fire in all measures (shots per target, trigger pulls per hit, and even time to hit). The decrease in accuracy when firing faster is reduced with proper training and repeated practice.
Body armor is also key. Those robbers definitely selected good body armor. The rest of us should do the same for self-defense (NIJ Class IIIA or better to stop subgun rounds; Class III or IV rifle plates to stop M4 or M16 rounds).

ZOG's thugs, as well as criminal groups such as the JDL, have firearms. So should you and the rest of us. If you don't, then the Jews own you. Three or four of them can waltz into your home at any time, armed, and do what they please to you unless you have a good shotgun or assault rifle. (Handguns aren't enough.)
 
Old December 7th, 2005 #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Order
The knock on these has been that they aren't designed to stand up to the rigors of battle as say an AK is, meaning not meant to shoot thousands of rounds in short period of time and under conditions such as in Iraqi desert etc.

However hunting is an all too often muddy and dusty affair so maybe that part isn't accurate, I do wonder about ability to sustain high levels of fire for extended periods before breaking down.
These are reasonable concerns, which is why I only advised people to get a semi-auto hunting rifle if they live in an area where assault rifles are illegal and they don't want to break the law. Or a large-caliber hunting rifle might be a good purchase if one already owns a good assault rifle (AR-15, AK, FAL, M14, etc.).


Quote:
How do you clean the barrel of the Browing semi-auto from the muzzle end? That isn't a good idea but is that the only way to do it? As with the lever actions?
I don't actually own one of those rifles (yet). But one way to clean it properly, from breech to muzzle, would be with an Otis kit or other cable pull-through system.


Quote:
BTW,I don't think you are the jew Masaad Ayoob, who supported the high-mag ban when first proposed by George HW Bush in 1989.
I certainly hope you don't think I'm a Jew! (BTW, I think Ayoob is Arab, not Jewish.) If Ayoob supported that ban, then he's another scumbag, just like most pigs who believe in restricting our freedom to defend ourselves in the name of "officer safety." I know not all cops think that way, but many, many do.
 
Old December 7th, 2005 #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angler
I certainly hope you don't think I'm a Jew! (BTW, I think Ayoob is Arab, not Jewish.)

I did not, for a minute, think you were a jew.
I was simply making a reference to what someone who was debating you had posted earlier on the thread.

My follow-up post on AYOOB

Thanks for the input on the cleaning.
 
Old December 7th, 2005 #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Order
Why does he have a Hebrew name then? His name is a JEWISH name Ayoob.
Massad is also a jew name could he be a lebanese jew?
There are these middle eastern sephardic or sometimes called "oriental" jews, from Arab lands. Like Mordechai Vannunu, who was from Morocco. But, if they were American citizens I do not think they would be calling themselves Lebanese. I have read that he is Lebanese and though there are Lebanese who are friendly to Jews-- viz the civil war alliances of the 80s-- I doubt any American Jew would call itself by the country of origin.

Most Jews in the USA like this would just change their names.
 
Old December 7th, 2005 #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes
There are these middle eastern sephardic or sometimes called "oriental" jews, from Arab lands. Like Mordechai Vannunu, who was from Morocco. But, if they were American citizens I do not think they would be calling themselves Lebanese. I have read that he is Lebanese and though there are Lebanese who are friendly to Jews-- viz the civil war alliances of the 80s-- I doubt any American Jew would call itself by the country of origin.

Most Jews in the USA like this would just change their names.
I used to think he was some sort of Arab also until I learned that it is a jew name.

Just one example:
The Jewish Exponent

Quote:
and as a Jewish couple, Robin and Randy Ayoob of Elkins
 
Old December 7th, 2005 #99
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Thumbs up Full auto fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angler
Part of the reason those bank robbers didn't kill any cops (though they did shoot and wound several) is because they were relying on "spray-n-pray" shooting. Shooting weapons on full-auto empties a mag within seconds (thus leaving the gunner vulnerable at a potentially inopportune time), and makes aiming after the first shot nearly impossible. Full-auto fire in shoulder-fired weapons is basically useless except at very close range. Rapid semi-auto fire is almost always deadlier. Here's what a US military manual says:
Don't kid yourself, full auto fire is devastating, and wouldn't be banned in civilian firearms if the government didn't think it an advantage. I'd give and arm and a leg for a full auto BAR or even a full auto Thompson submachine.

As for the infamous bank robbers, the reason they didn't inflict fatalities and actually escape is because they didn't move! They remained stationary despite having a complete and total advantage, had they been in motion and advanced on the police they would have inflicted 100% fatalies, also had they got their asses in gear they could have escaped, the SWAT units took some time before arriving on scene. One was killed by a sniper shot from the overhead helicopter. The other succumbed to concentrated ground fire, by that time the police officers were using tactical rifles if memory serves me. There was a very minor controversy that the police let the 2nd perp bleed to death on the scene, which probably was the case...

In any event, the thugs had a decisive advantage which they squandered, but had they been in motion instead of remaining stationary until the very end, it could have gone very differently. The full auto fire made a difference, they just didn't have the smarts to capitalize.
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Old December 7th, 2005 #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
You entire premise is based on shooting someone at a distance. Sniping is murder pure and simple and any jury will convict you of such.
Certainly, in this corrupted multiracial country of ours, we're damned (by the jury) if we shoot while shooting is advantageous, but we're damned (by our attacker) if we wait until he makes his intentions plain enough that even a liberal idiot would agree that we might, perhaps, have been entitled to defend ourselves with a gun...what a shame it was too late.

Rather than keep that liberal idiot happy, then: shoot, scoot, and don't yap.

In any situation where a cop might acceptably shoot someone, then so may anyone else, and if the law doesn't like that, then there's something wrong with the law. If you see juries convicting people for doing what they had to do to stay alive, then follow my advice: shoot, scoot, and don't yap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
A criminal wonít threaten you at 20 feet he will close the distance before he becomes a threat.
That is almost what I said. But it isn't quite what I said. He's a threat at 20 feet, but he's not yet acting like a threat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
If you shoot someone at 20 feet the prosecuting attorney will show that they were not a threat and you had reasonable distance to get out of harms way.
No, actually. If you turn your back on an enemy, you worsen your position. And 20 feet isn't nearly enough to ensure a getaway by running. A prosecutor who makes this argument is either playing your jury for gullible fools, or he's giving a jury of anti-white muds a figleaf with which to hide the nakedly political motive for their inevitable, preconceived "guilty" verdict.

Potentially, you have two groups of deadly enemies. The first group is that couple of niggers who attacked you on the street. The second group is the jury of leftists and niggers who will decide that you had no right to defend yourself. You can't possibly avoid all the nigs who might try to harm you, but you might avoid that jury. So, again, my advice: shoot, scoot, and don't yap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Yes and you bring more reason for tighter gun control thus taking away the future privileges of whites. Then you may cause many others to be victims of groids.
You accomplish nothing by limiting your freedom because of fear of more freedom loss if you don't. At least let ZOG put the prohibitions down on paper. Then...join the criminals! That is, adopt their methods for ensuring their survival vis-a-vis the police and criminal competitors. I don't, of course, advise anyone to adopt the usual goals of criminals: extortion, robbery, drug-dealing, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
You get caught making one you go to prison no questions asked. That is the worst case the best case if you get an expensive lawyer and get fined $10,000.
You were talking about silencers. Then...don't get caught. When we were discussing silencers, it was in connection with a hypothetical need to remove sentries. Somebody made a rather funny suggestion that a common practice of sneaking up on them from behind, close enough to hit them on the head, was a sensible thing to do. It isn't. A silent, accurate, ranged weapon is required, so you can take out that sentry and not alert his nearby friends.

In most of your objections, I see a common flaw. You project the fear of the law's penalties as a means of obfuscating the immediate threat. But better in prison than dead on the street - and that's assuming you get caught. You might not be. Not every crime is solved. Not every criminal is apprehended. Rather than incur a very large threat of dying the moment you meet an attacker, shoot, scoot, and don't yap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Full auto weapons are fantasy guns and a waste of ammo. Every competition shooter I have met has made this claim. I am sure you know the exception. You dump a lot of rounds with the hopes of hitting your target. Everyone knows you canít properly aim a weapon on full auto. As AE said the spray and spray ideology.
Full auto weapons have a valid purpose, and the situation is not that of competition shooting. Full auto shooting sends a stream of bullets at a massed group of attackers in a situation where time is more crucial than conserving ammunition. Each bullet in the spray has a chance of hitting one or more attackers and forcing others to abandon their charge and take cover. Most full auto weapons can be set on semi-auto, in which case they're reasonably precise, if not so precise as some rifles that lack the full-auto feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
If you are going to get a gun get a few and master them well. Practice daily. The scenarios you present are under the assumption the shooter is highly trained, experienced and completely calm in a life or death situation. Look at those LA bank robbers. Thousands of rounds fired while wearing body armor and they didnít actually kill anyone other than themselves, I live in America where do you live fantasyland? Remember these were hardened bank robbers who had previously beaten the system and carried illegal weapons. Their opponents were outgunned as well. One trained sniper could have taken both of them, but they were in a fire fight with automatic weapons and body armor and they still didnít kill anyone other than themselves.
You applied a characterization to those bank robbers that defines their shooting skills, their personalities, and their intentions for which you have no actual facts. You fantasized about the nature of bank robbers whom you have never met. You dreamed up why they failed to kill anyone despite firing thousands of rounds.

Were their rounds numbered in the thousands, or did you dream that up too? Who did the counting? Where did you find the total published? Let's see: two bank robbers, and they fired "thousands of rounds"...hm. That's at least fifty mags for each of them, isn't it? Sean, I've read lots of your posts here, and your problem is that you "wing it" too much, and you never expect anyone else to notice the glitches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Again try shooting a moving target under pressure. Then factor in that the lighting may not be so well or the sun could be in your eyes. Your chances are better than you would think.
At 20 feet, I can hit a man-sized target, even if he's on the move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Easy to say difficult to do.
For whom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Luck? I am skilled but that is all I will say about that at this time.
Huff and bluff. I earned a marksmanship ribbon at Hurlbert Field, Eglin AFB in June 1980. I was a member of the Sharon Johnston State Park shooting club for a few years while I lived in Huntsville, AL (1987-1990). Feel free to check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Very true and under ideal conditions a great thing. But how many gun owners are true marksmen who can make perfect shots with bad lighting and life or death pressure? Again I am sure you know the exceptions to the rule.
"Perfect" shots? You mean, like hit a dime at 100' with a revolver? I'm not that good. But I can hit a man at 20' with a revolver almost every time, in any lighting except what is insufficient to see at all, pressure or no pressure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Try shooting a moving target at 20 feet. Hang up a cardboard cutout on a clothesline and have someone pull it towards you as it moves in the wind. Now try to shoot it, then have someone pouring cold water down your back this will give you an idea what it is like trying to shoot under pressure. This is also a tactic marine sniper drill instructors use on their students, the cold water thing that is or they usually yell at them while they are trying to make a shot.
Not bad. They should vary the routine though. Slapping your shoulder with a wooden ruler or riding crop, maybe. I could still hit that target, almost every time. You apparently fail to appreciate that 20 feet is easy shooting distance on a mansized target, even with a handgun. Easy, Sean. As in "even you can do it." Even with your off-hand, even in an icestorm. 20 feet is 8 normal steps. Light poles are longer than 20 feet. A two-lane rural highway is usually about 20 feet wide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Shooting competition has that much pressure now imagine your target moving with the added pressure that your life is at stake and you are being shot at or directly threatened. Couple that with the fact that you are about to take another life and may face life in prison or the death penalty. The pressure of a life ruining decision makes it that much more intense. Anyone on this board that claims they could be 100% calm and shoot to the best of their ability in that type of situation is a liar.
Nobody shoots "to the best of their ability" except in ideal conditions, such as those found on a range. The point is that 20' is beyond clubbing distance, but it is EASY shooting distance. If you shoot at all, with the intention of hitting a man at that distance, then you will almost always succeed, calm or scared, cold water or none, loud noises or not.

And since corruption of law IS a threat, shoot, scoot, and don't yap. That really is your optimal strategy. If you fail to shoot, you will have to win a fight against an attacker or two who might be too much for you. If you lose, you will die, because they are niggers who want to see you dead. If you win, you have a chance of evading apprehension, SO TAKE IT. If you get caught, THEN you can make your best case. A fair jury might look askance on your attempt to evade arrest, but a corrupt jury will look askance at you for being White, no matter what you did or didn't do or what the circumstances were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Here lies another problem. Just as pressure can cause you to freeze, fear can cause you to shoot to soon. If you are carrying a gun and shoot without being able to prove just cause you will go to prison. If you pull your gun and threaten you will go to jail. Groid criminals can live their life with 20 outstanding warrants, however something like this would cramp most of our lives.
This might not be the sort of world where you can sustain the kind of life you are used to, then. If you're in immediate danger, do your best to get out of it, and cross the next bridge later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Then if you justly pull your gun you have to think of the consequences. Well anyway while someone is wildly blasting all 6 rounds in 2 seconds from their pistol, you must think about every round that didnít hit its target. Where does it land? Does it hit someoneís property? Does it hit innocent people?
I'd regret hitting an innocent person with a stray bullet. But I'd regret being killed by an attacker even more (if for not as long). The innocent person's blood is most on his hands, not mine, as they'd have been no need for me to shoot if he had not been a threat to me.

I really don't care about property losses, given the situation. Sure, I'd pay for property damage...assuming that I could do it without being identified to the police. What might keep me from compensating property owners for their losses resulting from my shooting at an attacker is the increased risk of being apprehended by law and made subject to its corrupt workings. Otherwise, I'd happily pay for this busted window, or that blown automobile tire.

And when I said that I could fire six times in two seconds, I meant that I wasn't limited to "one shot" like AE said I'd be. No, I'd have all six shots, if I needed them. I'd shoot until I didn't need to shoot more.

Jerry Abbott

Last edited by Jenab; December 7th, 2005 at 10:54 PM.
 
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