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Old August 26th, 2004 #21
heaven above
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Now I believe that either Hechler and Koch, or Gloch, and even maybe both, are owned by British bods, whatever that means. To be British in the UK means today, you are a 'wog'. So whether or not those gun companies are owned by white British people, I do not know.

Nevertheless, I find that most new weapons are inaccurate.

The ethos nowadays seems to be to wound people, rather than kill. Now that would be fine in a military situation. But not in a 'one to one' defensive scenario.

Last edited by heaven above; August 28th, 2004 at 10:01 PM.
 
Old August 26th, 2004 #22
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heaven above
Quote:
Now I believe that either Hechler and Koch, or Gloch, and even maybe both, are owned by British bods, whatever that means. To be British in the UK means today, you are a 'wog'. So whether or not those gun companies are owned by white British people, I do not know.

Nevretheless, I find that most new weapons are inaccurate.

The ethos nowadays seems to be to wound people, rather than kill. Now that would be fine in a military situation. But not in a 'one to one' defensive scenario.

Hechler and Koch is currently owned by three Germans and one Brit who is not a Paki or East Indian. Glock is Austrian owned, Gaston Glock probably still has most shares I'd imagine as that company's been around longer than the Glock 17 pistol which came out in the early 80's.

Now Khar Firearms & Thompson Auto-Ordinance are owned by Reverend Sun Yung Moon's son, they are Moonie companies which contribute thousands if not hundreds of thousands to the Republican party in the US.
 
Old August 26th, 2004 #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppelhaken
Aren't you from England? Did you shoot in the military? What caliber are we talking about anyway? .380 auto, 9mm?

Beretta's are good guns alright but very pricey. Paying for the name.
The Browning Beratta .380 semi-auto matic is a fine weapon. It can accept hollow point rounds, and comes with a 13 shot magazine. This is a great load and gun arrangement for home defense. Not only are those hollow points manstoopers, but any missed round will relatively harmlessly disintegrate
I dont care for shotguns accept with a rifled slug load because the pellets they scatter all around, and will not be appreciated by pets, small children, etc, not to mention the property damage.
The traditional 22 has a terrible tendency to richochet and very little stopping power.
But get your BB with a 13 round magazine of hollow points, and maby a few extra clips, and you will be ready nto send any pack of Nigger or Spic home invaders to Satan, where they belong
Yeah, its pricey, but if there is anything you dony want to buy based on price its your shooting irons

diablo
 
Old August 26th, 2004 #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon
It really depends on what situation you plan to find yourself. If you plan to kill someone rather than make someone run away, go with .45 ACP. The knockdown power is unbeatable. If you want lots of rounds to fire off like firecrackers, then go with 9mm or a .22., but don't expect the same results on your target. Overall, Glock is a great brand, so is Colt, S&W, and Sig Saeur. Firearms are like everything else, you get what you pay for.

The AK 47 is a damned cheap weapon to produce, but effective.
 
Old August 27th, 2004 #25
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Old August 27th, 2004 #26
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In reality there is no best side arm. Different situations call for different weapons. In the city you would want to carry a small weapon because of over penetration. In the country you would want to carry a revolver because they handle shot-shells good (a must for snakes).

Things to consider
Gender
Hand Size
Immediate Need (dogs, people, gangs ect)
Season (Thicker clothes call for larger weapons)
How well the weapon conceals (I wear mine in a holster on my belt so this doesnít matter to those in cities with strict gun laws the smaller the better)
Actual strength (if you are not a brute you canít handle a large weapon)
Financial abilities
Location (home or on the street)
Local and state laws
Whether or not you have a CCW (Concealed Carry Weapons Permit)
All of these things are important factors

View the web-site below and it will give you a list of the most popular guns and their prices, choose the one that suits your hands, and personal needs.

http://www.horstheld.com/0-factory.htm
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Old August 27th, 2004 #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
I have shot all these mentioned and believe me the 45 acp has nothing on the 10 mm much less the 44 mag or the 44 special or even the 41 mag.

But I would take a good 7.62x25 Russian any day. Good hollow points you have speed, unreal knockdown power, and the penetration with the size and almost the weight of the 9mm and it is an accurate round to.
But more mainstream is the 40 s&w, it is about the same as the 7.62 but not as fast nor is it as accurate.
I will have to seriously part company over this and say, it is possibly the most erroneous thing you have said on this board so far. Rather than taking it from me, or from you, readers should take it from the experts. Col Cooper says, .45 is the best hands down, because it is the fattest and it has proven itself time and time again. Reducing downwards, he prefers the 10MM. 10MM is better than 40SW because the bullets are generally the same but it has more oomph. Ceteris paribus, 10MM is better.

Obviously hollowpoint is better than roundball for self defense, in any caliber. Here is why. Penetration and knockdown power are inversely proportional. Penetration is gained when the shape of the projectile is streamline and thus disperses LITTLE energy throughout the target, like a "corelokt" hunting rifle bullet. Knockdown power is gained when a projectile mushrooms and disintegrates thus dispersing MUCH energy throughout the target. But a mushrooming disintegrating projectile does NOT penetrate well.

What's more is that there are few rounds commercially available in 7.62 Kurz that are hollowpoint. Maybe Fiocchi. Most ammo is surplus roundball. I have a CZ 52 in this caliber which has a heavy duty cam locking slide mechanism, and thus can take the very hot 7.62 Czech. But .30 caliber is not a good self defense round regardless of how fast.

If I have to be restricted to a .38 cal I would prefer a .357 round above all others, 125 gr JHP, but 9mm is tolerable. I think the best performers are said to be 124 gr JHP.

Last edited by Antiochus Epiphanes; August 27th, 2004 at 01:58 PM.
 
Old August 27th, 2004 #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diabloblanco92
The Browning Beratta .380 semi-auto matic is a fine weapon. It can accept hollow point rounds, and comes with a 13 shot magazine. This is a great load and gun arrangement for home defense. Not only are those hollow points manstoopers, but any missed round will relatively harmlessly disintegrate
I dont care for shotguns accept with a rifled slug load because the pellets they scatter all around, and will not be appreciated by pets, small children, etc, not to mention the property damage.
The traditional 22 has a terrible tendency to richochet and very little stopping power.
But get your BB with a 13 round magazine of hollow points, and maby a few extra clips, and you will be ready nto send any pack of Nigger or Spic home invaders to Satan, where they belong
Yeah, its pricey, but if there is anything you dony want to buy based on price its your shooting irons

diablo
that's a fucking pimp gun. buy yourself a good tooth too. LOL With that silly assed tip up barrell. That is ok for girls and elderly people but most WN are men who are not so limp wristed we cant rack a slide. Why spend $500 for this overpriced paperweight when there is a good version of the Walther PPK/S made by FEG in Hungary for $200 in the same caliber. Hell, a Russian Makarov would be better in 9x18 for $175. the only guns I would prefer made in Italy are shotguns.

Last edited by Antiochus Epiphanes; August 27th, 2004 at 02:00 PM.
 
Old August 27th, 2004 #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diabloblanco92
The Browning Beratta .380 semi-auto matic is a fine weapon. It can accept hollow point rounds, and comes with a 13 shot magazine. This is a great load and gun arrangement for home defense. Not only are those hollow points manstoopers, but any missed round will relatively harmlessly disintegrate........
diablo
.380 Man-STOOPERS maybe, but man-STOPPERS, NOT.
 
Old August 27th, 2004 #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes
I will have to seriously part company over this and say, it is possibly the most erroneous thing you have said on this board so far. Rather than taking it from me, or from you, readers should take it from the experts. Col Cooper says, .45 is the best hands down, because it is the fattest and it has proven itself time and time again. Reducing downwards, he prefers the 10MM.
I know from experience. Think about it for a second I am a white redneck that has lived in Ky and now WVA. I have shot about every kind of gun you can imagine and all my friends carry guns, if there is one thing I know it is guns. I have shot both the 45 and the 10mm and believe me there is no comparison.

Col Cooper also says the best way to carry his 45 is with the hammer back and the safety on, would you carry a gun that way? While that is how I carry a 10mm (on the 45 frame) not very many people would take that advice. Col Cooper while being the expert, is not above being wrong. I have a tape where he broke his #1 rule by picking a gun up and dry firing it without checking to see if it was loaded.

He is an old timer that is a hard-core traditionalist. He grew up with the 45 acp and rejects any change. I donít know how you feel about guns, or how many you have shot so you may have had different experiences than I have had. But trust me when I say there is absolutely no comparison between the 45 and 10 mm. I have owned both and shot both and have no hard feelings against either, but the 45 didnít have half the penetration of the 10 mm.
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Old August 27th, 2004 #31
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LOL Sean I have been around the block or two, from when my dad taught me to shoot a 22 to summer camp in boy scouts spending half the day at the range to when he taught me to shoot a shotgun to the day I turned 21 and went out and bought a glock; between then and now I have done countless firearms educational/ participatory events, including gun shows, indoor ranges, outdoor ranges, machine gun shoots, plink-fests, DCM clinics, hi-powered rifle matches, gun club bullshit and IDPA and IPSC. In fact this weekend I am doing my second 3 gun match of the year. I, and every one of the fifty odd fellows who will show up, will most likely be shooting .45s. Maybe somebody will bring a glock 9 or maybe a few oldtimers will bring wheelguns although they usually shoot 45 too. Maybe somebody will bring a 40. But 90% will be .45. .45 is the shit, hands down.

As for cockd n locked, I dont carry that way no. But I am not a professional shootist nor am I in a walk of life nor a job that tolerates open carry of a firearm and you really cant hardly conceal a 45 cockd n lockd anyways.

But if I were a pro, carrying as part of my work, and cocked and locked was permitted, sure, hell yes I'd carry that way.

The reason that is bad and cops are not allowed to carry that way anymore is that they are not pros, they are barely competent with firearms in the usual case, and when they draw they like all other untrained persons, naturally put their finger in the trigger guard. If you are trained to use handguns properly, one indexes the finger until the target is acquired and then as the front sight pictures comes into focus the finger enters the trigger guard and squeezes the trigger for a surpise break. When you're done -- with whatever-- and you want to make safe, the finger is immediately taken out of the trigger guard and reindexed as being holstered or unloaded. But if you dont do this, you're liable to have an accidental discharge with a single action arm like the 1911. That is why the Germans developed the P-38 and why all cops now are required to carry DA/SA setups or glocks which are like DAO. 1911 is still the best.

Now training yourself to do that with handguns requires practice, and upkeep practice too. Most people dont have the time or motivation including cops. Usually it is only amateur shooters who put the time in, or those few LE or milpers that actually are called on to shoot rather than shuffle papers or push buttons.

Cooper was the rare combination of enthusiast and professional shootist and person with abundant real life experience shooting and being shot at by bad guys to be aptly called the "gunner's guru" and I would not second guess him when it comes to effectiveness of particular rounds.

Last edited by Antiochus Epiphanes; August 27th, 2004 at 04:10 PM.
 
Old August 27th, 2004 #32
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I just picked one of these up last year, a Cz 75 Compact. Really a nice little well designed gun, I'm surprised they're not more popular.

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Old August 27th, 2004 #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes
But 90% will be .45. .45 is the sh--, hands down.
The 45 is an outdated weapon, you know since it was invented that more weapons were invented that were more efficient and had more power. I am just using logic even if I didnít know anything about guns I would know that.
Quote:
But if I were a pro, carrying as part of my work, and cocked and locked was permitted, sure, hell yes I'd carry that way.
That is how I carry a gun, but if you are going to carry cocked and locked I would recommend a Glock, or a drop hammer safety S&W. Follow the 4 rules and accidents wonít happen.
Quote:
The reason that is bad and cops are not allowed to carry that way anymore is that they are not pros,
Absolutely agreed just watch those California shootouts and anyone can see that. Sometimes I ask myself if they are taught how not to be able to shoot.
Quote:
1911 is still the best.
You are sharp enough to know that the 1911 is a dated weapon. For competition it is the widest used but not a carry. It is heavy and bulky, only shoots 8 times (I know that is all you need) and has a single stack magazine. There is CCW S&Wís out now that has the 45 beaten hands down. Although in this area there are a lot of people that carry a 45 on a 1911 frame (the wal-mart guy I mentioned in another thread carries a firestorm 45) But anyone that does reloading or gel shooting knows that from a ballistics standpoint there is no comparison between the 45 acp and many modern rounds. I am not saying the 45 is junk but it is dated and there is better out there.

Quote:
Cooper was the rare combination of enthusiast and professional shootist and person with abundant real life experience shooting and being shot at by bad guys to be aptly called the "gunner's guru" and I would not second guess him when it comes to effectiveness of particular rounds.
I like Cooper and have seen every tape that I know exists of him, but he is old and a traditionalist and not friendly with new ideas or later innovations.

I donít know your age and I am not being smart aleck but I take it that you are some years older than I am by your weapons conversation.
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Old August 28th, 2004 #34
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From my military experience the .45 is a little too big. I have fired the .45 Webley revolver, an officers side arm. The Browning 9mm was OK and a fair clip of rounds in there.

But not having been an officer my personal weapon was either the 9mm smg or the old 7.62 SLR a 'real mans' weapon. We used to come off the ranges with bruises on our shoulders.

The AR15 was like a toy gun compared to the SLR. The accuracy of the AR15 was bloody awful too, the foresight was as big as your thumb, and all plasticky.

Now I haven't fired the M60, but handled it, and it looks the business.
 
Old August 30th, 2004 #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
The 45 is an outdated weapon, you know since it was invented that more weapons were invented that were more efficient and had more power. I am just using logic even if I didnít know anything about guns I would know that.
so youre saying quantity beats quality? odd position for a WN

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
That is how I carry a gun, but if you are going to carry cocked and locked I would recommend a Glock, or a drop hammer safety S&W. Follow the 4 rules and accidents wonít happen.
You arent understanding me, that's ok. There is a big difference by a person who is a regular shooter of handguns and one who is not. A cop for example may not be a regular shooter of handguns even if he straps one on day after day. Ditto most military and most front line combat personnel as well. The Germans recognized this, and combined the safety feature of a heavy double action pull on the first round which one has in a revolver, with the firepower of an automatic in the P-38.

The problem with the DA-SA arrangement is the difference in trigger pull. Fast instinctive reactions demand a uniform trigger pull. That is the problem with the P-38 and the CZ series for that matter and all the rest. For example I shot this weekend with a geezer shooting a revolver with a bobbed hammer. He only shoots DA. DAO is what a handgun set up like that is called.

A glock is another innovation because it is essentially DAO. A nine or ten pound pull each stroke. So it's always the same. SW copied Glock and introduced a whole range of DAO handguns including the Sigma which nakedly copied Glock in many other ways. SW are dickheads IMO.

Glock is also simpler than SW knockoffs because it lacks the external safety, other than on the trigger itself, a very odd innovation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
You are sharp enough to know that the 1911 is a dated weapon. For competition it is the widest used but not a carry. It is heavy and bulky, only shoots 8 times (I know that is all you need) and has a single stack magazine. There is CCW S&Wís out now that has the 45 beaten hands down. Although in this area there are a lot of people that carry a 45 on a 1911 frame (the wal-mart guy I mentioned in another thread carries a firestorm 45) But anyone that does reloading or gel shooting knows that from a ballistics standpoint there is no comparison between the 45 acp and many modern rounds. I am not saying the 45 is junk but it is dated and there is better out there.
What, you can get single stack 10 rd mags. Plus, have you ever heard of Para Ordnance? Look that up.

Reloaders? Every 45 shooting geezer I know is a reloader. Nobody reloads 9s. WTF is a gel shooter? I dont shoot gel I should targets. LOL

You want to talk about geezers, half the 50 or so guys at the match this weekend were 45 or older. They dont like the 1911-45 setup because they are old farts they like 45s because they hit bad guys and knock them down. They dont perforate or bounce off. They hit and hit hard, I hear getting nailed with a 45 HP is like getting kicked in the chest by a fucking mule or a goddamned flying ashtray. They use 1911s for a ton of reasons and not just because ole fart Coop says so. Anyways, I'm done explaining this. btw, I used a glock because my 1911 has a broken mag catch. LOL The glock has every automatic design beaten in one very important dimension: reliability.

Did say something about SW again? Oh yeah, they're the fuckwads who publically approved of gun control legislation a couple years ago. yeah, that's a great outfit.
 
Old August 30th, 2004 #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppelhaken
Filipino friend of mine said he was in Manila, I believe, when he witnessed a Filipino policeman crack someone he was trying to arrest over the head with a plastic (is there another kind?) Glock, and it broke apart.

The cop then got his ass kicked.
well he should have used the slide and not the frame, LOL
 
Old August 30th, 2004 #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppelhaken
I'd much rather be "kicked in the chest by a fucking mule or a goddamned flying ashtray" than shot with a .45 HP anywhere in my body.

Why are you wasting time with this guy? Sean's motto should be taken from David Byrne, "Stop making sense."
letting the days go by, water flowing underground!

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Old August 30th, 2004 #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes

Reloaders? Every 45 shooting geezer I know is a reloader. Nobody reloads 9s. WTF is a gel shooter? I dont shoot gel I should targets. LOL
So you reload or just your friends? I canít imagine someone that reloads and doesnít shoot into Gel at least once to see what load does the most damage and has the most impact.

Plinking at paper doesnít show force or damage or even velocity.

Come on AE surely you know more about guns than this.
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Old August 31st, 2004 #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
So you reload or just your friends? I can?t imagine someone that reloads and doesn?t shoot into Gel at least once to see what load does the most damage and has the most impact.

Plinking at paper doesn?t show force or damage or even velocity.

Come on AE surely you know more about guns than this.





"With the exceptions of hits to the brain or upper spinal cord, the concept of reliable and reproducible immediate incapacitation of the human target by gunshot wounds to the torso is a myth. The human target is a complex and durable one. A wide variety of psychological, physical, and physiological factors exist, all of them pertinent to the probability of incapacitation.

"Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed."


That being said, in a handgun, I'll take a .45 model 1911 anyday. Glock in a .45 cal would be my second choice only since I can't carry around of of these!


Remington 870 Marine Magnum 12ga 23/4 - 3 inch shells.
 
Old August 31st, 2004 #40
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The DA-SA isn't so much an issue for CZ series as they can also be carried "cocked and locked".
 
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