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Old January 2nd, 2004 #61
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I see a few misconceptions on a couple of posts.

First, there's no way the 1911 .45 clone can be considered "inaccurate." It is the favorite choice of most PPC and IPSC competitors in the "major" category and the gun has won countless matches. Granted, a lot of those are special "race guns" that have been modified extensively, but the well-made 1911 clones have also won their fair share of "out of the box" stock firearm shoots. You may be thinking of the old, wartime 1911s that had a reputation for inaccuracy, mainly due to the haste of wartime production and sloppy parts fitting (you could shake some of those and hear the slide/barrel assembly rattle). Newly manufactured guns from a decent maker are plenty accurate right out of the box, but if you cheap out and buy surplus guns like a Ballister Molina from Argentina, it's a crapshoot.

As for the round itself, I say let the .45 ACP's 90-year service record speak for itself. It's chalked up quite a reputation as a man-stopper, and that's mostly with round-nose ball ammo, which isn't the optimum choice for street applications. When you use a well-designed hollowpoint (like Federal's Hydrashok 230 grain) or any of the specialty ammo like the MagSafe or Glaser Safety Slug, you truly have a weapon capable of putting your target down. Now, there's nothing wrong with a 9mm. Countless people have been successfully brought down with it, but to flatly say that the 9mm is a better round is mistaken, IMO. The 9mm also has a reputation for overpenetration and you really don't want that, since all the bullet's energy should ideally be transferred to the target. Of course, 9mm MagSafes and the like will take care of this. The legendary recoil of the .45 ACP cartridge is also overstated. It isn't anything terrible to begin with, and with a little practice (and you should practice if you're gonna carry) you can keep rapid double-taps in the X-ring all day at seven to ten yards, no problem. Even the "Mozambiuqe Drill" (a double-tap to the chest and a finisher to the head) is no problem for a moderately skilled shooter.

10+ magazines for 9mms are still available, though they're more expensive. If you decide on a 9mm, look for police trade-in guns (stay away from S&W automatic pistols though; they suck) that usually come with at least one high-cap magazine. The guns are usually in good shape and haven't been fired that much (most cops only seem to shoot once or twice a year to qualify). Check publications like Shotgun News and go to local guns shows for more info.

Lastly, to say that the AK is not a distance weapon is also flat-out wrong. Sure, it's not going to win any awards in bullseye competitions (a 2.5-3" group at 100 yards is pretty good for an AK), but out to 250-300 yards it does just fine, and the round is the ballistic equivalent of the venerable .30-30 Winchester cartridge. In an urban environment, long-range shots are the exception and not the rule, so pinpoint accuracy at 500 yards is not a big factor. Besides, you've gotta see your target to engage it, and have you ever really noticed just how small a man is at even 200 yards with open sights? Tell you what, when you as a shooter are skilled enough to be more accurate than the AK, then worry about getting something with more accuracy. The AK has several other advantages, including its legendary reliability, the low price of the rifle itself, cheap magazines and very cheap ammo. Combined together, the AK is a very effective and economical package for the serious defensive rifleman. In an urban environment, the AK has another big advantage over its M-16/AR15 contemporary's round, the 5.56mm. The 7.62x39 round of the AK will penetrate light to medium cover much more effectively than the 5.56mm. The 7.62x39 will routinely penetrate both sides of a car body and have enough steam left to wound or kill anyone on the other side (I've tried this, though of course not with actual people), whereas the 5.56mm will penetrate only one side, and the slug fragments immediately thereafter. Incidentally, the fragmentation of the 5.56mm is one key to its reputation as a nasty wound-inflictor, but this only happens at the higher velocities found at shorter ranges. Naturally, the 7.62x39 won't penetrate something like an engine block or more than one wheel rim, but for you urban fellas forseeing the need to engage targets behind light cover (dumpsters, newspaper boxes, cars, etc.), the AK in 7.63x39 is the way to go. One accessory for the AK I would recommend is the addition of a red-dot optical sight. The major weak point on the AK is the poor stock sights. The red-dot allows both-eyes-open target engagement and rapid acquisition. The "Kobra" series is designed for the AK and is relatively inexpensive, but very well-made, but you'll need to get an AK with a side-mount scope rail or have one installed.

The SKS is also a cheaper alternative to the AKM, but the quality is iffier.

The AK can also be used to hunt, and the soft-nosed 7.62x39 will take a deer nicely. You really shouldn't be taking shots on deer at 400+ yards anyway, so the long-range hunting rifle is not as necessary as you might think.

Have fun and practice, practice, practice because I can assure you, the nogs will.
 
Old January 2nd, 2004 #62
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Quote:
Well, I was thinking the revolver should be the primary weapon. That way, the first weapon I pull out is very likely to fire without issue (unless I am fool enough to use Fiocchi ammo which has such hard primers they will usually not be fired by the firing pin in my .38!).

DF:
I can’t imagine that there is any difference in reliability between a revolver and a state-of-the-art automatic when it’s about getting out the 1st round when it’s already in the chamber.
Now that you explained the purposes of your gun ownership, we can tailor our advice towards your needs.
1st of all don’t let those overkill freaks talk you in to getting a 45. Your not going out there to grind meat. What you intend to do is serious business, in other wörds you need to score effective hits, quickly and at various ranges at which the targets located from a distance farther than from close range will be best taken from a high velocity automatic, namely the hollow-point or teflon-tipped (where available) 9mm.
Don’t forget armor: You’re going to need a bullet proof vest and where applicable, night vision. The best gun on the planet won’t do you any gööd if you get hit, so protect your vital organs, because only a fool will try to shoot you in the fööt.
You’re showing valiance, because you refuse taking part in “White Flight”, therefore it angers me that others aren’t taking you seriously by giving you false advice, in other wörds, this 45 cal. Bullshit

Quote:
Then, after definitely being able to shoot and having run out of bullets and taken cover, I could pull my semi-auto pistol and have lots of rounds in case of a real gun battle.
Thats just the idea I have, I really don't know the tactical soundness of that approach.

DF:
It sounds here that you are rather sceptical as to the reliability of an automatic weapon.
I have never heard of a documented case which gives reasons to reinforce this scepticism.
If the weapon is in gööd shape and clean, it’s unlikely to jam. Have it checked by a competent gunsmith. However, this is your ultimate decision and you’ll just have to get into some of these battles in order to gain confidence in your weapons and to find out which you prefer.
Don’t arm yourself only with firearms. A knife should always accompany you for silent wörk. A crossbow is highly effective, but not cheap

Quote:
I have heard that police have found the .45 to be the best stopper and then others say its known as a "one-shot stop" ammo. I figure that since the limit is 10 rounds for a pistol magazine, it might as well be the more devistating .45 caliber. And thats what I heard- that the .45 makes the biggest "mess" and that 9mm often just goes through the target, allowing them to get close enough to stab, for example.

DF:
It hardly matters where you hit a target with a .44 Magnum or probably even a .45 because it’ll blow away most of what you’re shooting, but these are comparably effective at short ranges which you intend on avoiding in a gun battle. Of course there will be situations where you can’t avoid this, but don’t limit yourself to only short range effectiveness. You need to score, perferably with only 1 shot, then move on to the next target.

Quote:
Now, if I can get a 9mm pistol with a magazine holding 16 rounds (and doesnt extend past the grip's length) I would be more inclined to it, but I don't know if thats affordable? I thought all 9mm pistols you could buy were limited to accepting only 10-round magazines (not counting the magazines that extend past the grip, which I don't think I like)?

DF:
The 10 round .45 will limit you to only 10 rounds between clip changes, whereas a Browning 9mm will offer you 4 more when 1 already is in the chamber. 4 extra rounds can mean the difference between life and death. 16 rounds? That’s interesting. I don’t have anx doubts that this is possible. I only wonder if they set the clip up where the rounds do not stack directly on top of 1 another, but rather in a “W” fashion almost side by side to achive the normal grip length

Quote:
Your right about the MagSafes. I don't think anyone else commented on them specifically. I can't understand why its so difficult for people to settle on one caliber and not drive me insane

DF:
They’ll drive u insane if you listen to them.
Try getting into some war games and I don’t mean virtual. There are enough people in our movement who are more than likely interested in setting up something like this or are already doing so.

Quote:
So maybe I should get a 9mm with MagSafe ammo, which would take care (I suppose) of the stopping-power problem. A 9mm MagSafe bullet fragments and would not simply go through the target. Hah!

DF:
Absolutely right!

Quote:
The AK-47 is not a distance weapon? That sucks. I imagine the most likely real-world use in my situation would be repelling Blacks/Puerto Ricans from my residence and immediate surroundings, which includes those shooting at me from behind cars, SUVs, homes and the corners of homes and down block-long streets. Is the AK-47 good for that?

DF:
Actually it was intended for other theaters. This is an all-purpose weapon whose main quality is reliability. The Viet Cong were still shooting after the M-16s jammed. You could drag tha AK thru mud and it’ll still fire. This is a globalized gun which is produced under licence in China, Bulgaria and wherever else around the communist part of the wörld, thus very inexpensive. If you travel to some 3rd wörld country, I don’t see a problem with you getting your hands on 1 for no more than 20$. But I don’t recommend this for urban house to house battlesin which case you won’t be dragging your weapon through filth and will need to shoot through cars more than behind them especially beyond the short ranges that the AK could only perform

Quote:
I have found AK-47 clones for 350 in very good condition at places like these:
http://www.gunbroker.com/?AID=5377676&PID=812222

DF:
Out of the question. You’re making overnight millionaires that way

Quote:
I have no plans against the Queen Mary, I swear.

DF:
Sorry, I meant the Queen Mary 2 which is the wörld’s biggest ocean liner
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Old January 3rd, 2004 #63
SMG3000
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LOL! I am still learning but I ought not to complain.

Well, perhaps I will go with the 9mm after all, after thinking about it. If it has pre-fragmented and hollow-points it should make up the difference. And I will definitely practice with everything I get until I'm competent. I'm not sure why I said "16 round capacity", but I could be wrong. Maybe 14 is the limit for magazines that do not extend beyond the grip.

I actually do have a knife: http://www.buckknives.com/catalog/detail/220/222
It came with a 'kydex' sheath and I plan to wear it in one of these: http://www.smartcarry.com/index.htm It wouldnt be a fast draw, of course. But maybe I can convince an attacker to let me "adjust myself" before we combat.
Or, if it really is invisible, somehow on my belt. This knife is made by "Buck" and it cost 20 bucks at Walmart. I think it will work in a fight and maybe the other guy will turn tail and run upon seeing it. So I can stab him in the back

I'm going to be honest. If I could flee to Ireland, I'd do it. Maybe if I lived in a nice neighborhood I wouldnt, but my life expectancy doesnt seem so great here and I have a very serious doubt that anyone would listen to my plans for Whites to survive. Most of the Whites here in Florida I would rather see gone, though that may not be a very White attitude. I'd love to shoot my enemies, but not to save assholes and if I wont have a future.

Maybe I'd have a change of heart and want to return if I could leave, but I have a real yearning to not be here when things get nasty. Of course in reality, I will be trapped in some kind of horror whether I like it or not, as seems to be a law of Murphy.
Still, if there is a nice Irish family out there, preferably a rich one, and wishes to adopt a 300 month old American boy who is good around animals and is rarely fussy, I am for sale!

Perhaps I was incorrect about semi-auto pistol reliability. I was just thinking of things like "stove-piping" and that other thing, where the bullet gets stuck going from the magazine mouth to the chamber.

I hope that if people are doing war games, that they are very discreet! There is so much paranoia and real informants among WN circles that I doubt it would happen so easily. Perhaps a wax dummy wearing cloths and a sack over its head could be tied to a chair in a sound-proof basement. All trusted members of a group could be taken to this basement (one at a time) and told to empty a round into this "(insert WN enemy type here)"'s head. Maybe get one of those dancing plants to replace the mannequin's head, to simulate movement If the person refuses, they might be an informant. Or a dancing-plant lover, if they detect it is such a device.

Do you suggest an M-16 then? I would also get a twenty dollar AK-47, but how could it be transported home without detection? I get the feeling I'd be on my way to Guantanamo Bay with a sack over my head.

OMG. Wasn't there a cruiseliner recently held from leaving or entering an important port recently? I hope that false alarm wasn't unintentionally initiated by anyone here.

Yes, I am very careful. The ZOG wont be taking me out in a way that can make it seem justifiable. They will have to do the Weaver thing, if I am worth the bother.
 
Old January 3rd, 2004 #64
Antiochus Epiphanes
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accurate comments from "madsciencetype."

stop wasting breath on this topic folks. I'll boil it down again.

1. if you have time to practice, get a 45. join a gun club and come shoot IPSC or IDPA with us. in no time you'll be a better shot than most cops you'll ever meet and 99.9% of nogs who have ever held a firearm.

2. if you dont have time, get a revolver. they're easy to use, and much more idiot proof than the 45 which is rather unforgiving to handling errors.

3. if you want a rifle ask yourself why. then do the research. VNNForum is not the place to do research. if you want a good all around gun to square away with a case of ammo for the Ragnarok, the AK is as good a choice as any. If you want a hunting rifle, do the research. IF you want to have something to use in a potential insurrection, the AR15 is the obvious choice due to what Che Guevarra pointed out in his writings, ie, the availability of parts and ammo requires that the guerilla arm himself with the same rifle as the occupying forces. Now, therein in lies the only reason to have a 9 mm, because the army sidearm is chambered for that round.

So there, all your bases are covered. Oh, yeah, get a Mossberg 590 shotgun while youre at it! LOL
 
Old January 12th, 2004 #65
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I own a Rouger 9mm, a moosberg 12 gage, and a 22 rifel. A Pee wee bat, and some rambo knifes. I want a bullet proof vest, night googles, and 20 more 9m mags, a few more 12 gages, and a few 30/6 rifels. my kids a re small but soon I need to teach them to shoot.
 
Old January 12th, 2004 #66
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Some great posts here. I'll just give my opinion, for what it's worth.

1) The M-16A1 is a piece of shit! I was in the army, light weapons infantry and I know of what i speak. The thing jams at the most opportune times, sometimes for no apparent reason. It has to be kept cleaner than a knats ass to function properly. When it does function it's a good weapon...lotta firepower...700 to 800 rounds per minute, assuming you have a magazine that big.

Some of the guys I was in the army with were in Viet Nam and they ditched the M-16 the first chance they got and used the AK for reasons that many have already posted. If yer gonna invest in an assault weapon GET AN AK!!!

2) Handguns: revolvers are good, semi's are good, 9mm are good, 38's are good and so is the 45. It's all a matter of what suites you. Me I prefer the stopping power of a 45. Sure you can kill someone with a 38 or a 9mm but it better be a head shot or a shot to the heart. Like dirty harry said, "iv'e seen 38's careen off windsheilds".

They're a lotta bad people out their and some of them are doped up, cracked up, steroided up 300 lbs of menace and unless you have nerves of steel and are a crack shot you better be prepared for shots that don't hit vital regions and the purpose of shooting someone is to take him down with the first shot so you don't have to deal with 2 3 and 4.

Thats why i like a 45! You hit-em no matter where and it will knock them down. You hit someone with a 9 or 38 and maybe it will knock them down. I don't want maybes when my life is on the line!

Get a glock in a 45 caliber range and you can't go wrong. Easy to use, comfort, small recoil and the thing will never jam or fail you.

My 2 cents.
 
Old January 13th, 2004 #67
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Or if you really want stopping power get yourself a .44 magnum or a .50 AE LOL. Seriously though, does anyone know if the "kickback" on those guns is significant compared to like a .45?
 
Old January 25th, 2004 #68
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I have to say one thing you have taste the Taurus millenium is a nice looking gun. For cal. I would say .45 in my opinion it is much better than the .9mm could ever be. The .45 has the nock down power to put a grown man on his butt. However you do have the problem of the round traveling through the target. Now since that would be bad I would seggest the .40 smith and wesson a round the cops have found to have the nock down power of .45 or .357 but it wont go through the target like the .9mm. So I would say try and find a Taurus millenium in .40 cal. As for brands I like the Tarurus you have piced out has I said eirlyer but I would go with HK or Glock. They are both very dependable and wont go south on ya.

thanks for reading I hope this helps you.
 
Old January 25th, 2004 #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgie
Or if you really want stopping power get yourself a .44 magnum or a .50 AE LOL. Seriously though, does anyone know if the "kickback" on those guns is significant compared to like a .45?
Well to answer your qwestion no there is no diference in kickback between the .44 mag. .50 AE or the .45 at least in the desert eagale the fact that how heavey the gun is obsorebs most of the impact.
 
Old January 25th, 2004 #70
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One thing I haven't seen mentioned in these posts is the fact that the .45 is subsonic, which means it's an excellent round for a silenced weapon. 9mm has to be reloaded to make it subsonic.

That fact in addtion to it's punch makes it my sidearm of choice, hands down.
 
Old February 25th, 2004 #71
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OK, just to throw a little gas on the fire -

ANY high quality firearm is OK, revolver or auto. No matter which you like, LEARN TO USE IT!! This means practice, practice, practice, and not just shooting up a few tin cans! There will be an USPSA/IPSA and/or IDPA group near you (see the IPSC/IDPA tread) and actually LEARN to shoot! Neither is great, but both are fun. You will learn to shoot while under stress and that is a great help. We (the IPSC group I belong to) has cops come and tell us how great they are, super fast, super accurate, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. The WORST shooter at our club beats their BEST shooter, every time! This pisses off the cops and they leave (good), but the cops probably are as good as 95% of the shooters out there. In short, the cops practice is to shoot at paper with unlimited time and can't hit a damn thing, while we practice drawing, aiming, reloading, and getting timed, so we have emptied a mag into the target before the cop has cleared leather. True we use special IPSC holsters, but I have used a concealment rig and still got off five AIMED rounds in 3 seconds, the cops take six or seven seconds to get the gun out! No I am not especially fast, but I am a shit load faster than 99.999% of the tin can blasters, and a whole lot more accurate!

Which gun is best, revolver or auto? ANY good firearm is fine. Revolvers jam just as often as autos (I had a Ruger Security-Six jam with factory ammo, it happens), but an auto is MUCH easier to clear and/or fix if anything happens. Glocks jam just as often as anything else as far as I have seen, and blow up MUCH easier than a (Colt/Springfield/Kimber) 1911 (yes I know what you get is really a 1911-A1), and yes, I have seen both let go. The difference was the 1911 was fine, the Glock was in parts. If you like Glocks (I don't but a few friends shoot them like lazers) than get a Glock. Check all the different sizes (they feel different) and calibers. I would stay with either .357 Mag for revolvers (shoot .38 Specials) or get a Taurus five shot .45 ACP revolver, 9mm (actually has a harder recoil impulse than .45), .40 S&W (also harder impulse, shoot the SAME gun with 9mm, .40 and .45 to see this), .45 ACP. My favorite is .45. Look at the Phillipine invasion at the turn of the century, we had the .38 Colt (9mm clone) and it failed MIZERABLY! They had to get the old thumb buster .45 Colts out! The military is going back to the .45 after the 9mm failed to do worth a shit, again. Sure alot of people have been killed with the 9mm, but the lowly .22 LR has killed even more. You want to kill them NOW, or three days from now after they have kiloled you and your family? Look at REAL WORLD shooting and the .45 beats teh shit out of the 9mm, with the same ammo. FMJ vs. FMJ, .45 wins. Hollow point vs. Hollow point, .45 wins. Beehive/frag ammo, vs. frag ammo, .45 wins. The cases you read are frag ammo 9mm vs. FMJ .45 and the .45 still holds it's own with 69% one shot stops.

Go to theindependentamerican.freeyellow.com and read the first four (free) issues. They have alot of NO BS articles and lay it out for you. The Jan/Feb issue is pay per view and worth the lousy $15 they want for six issues.

I leave you with this thought. No matter what gun you get, join a shhoting club and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!
 
Old February 26th, 2004 #72
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kindred spirit! listen up folks, granddragon laid it out straight.

read your reply about the tac reload in IDPA. your point is well taken, but I seem to recall years ago reading another point of view from Jeff Cooper.
 
Old February 26th, 2004 #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes
kindred spirit! listen up folks, granddragon laid it out straight.

read your reply about the tac reload in IDPA. your point is well taken, but I seem to recall years ago reading another point of view from Jeff Cooper.
OK, which quote from Chairman Jeff? While Jeff used to have his head together, lately he has been getting doofier and doofier. Hey, he's old and it happens. This does not take away from what he has done in the past however.

My personal view (from being shot at) is to dump the mag and put another one in any time I have the time (ie: behind something solid and not shooting), and if I can I'll pick the mag up, but I will NOT pull the used mag out, hold it in my hand and then pull a loaded mag out and put it in the gun and THEN put the semi-loaded mag in my pocket. This is as near suicide as you can get in real life.

When doing a "jungle run", the gamers walk or trot and look all over for targets, stop to shoot and then go on. This will get you killed in real life. In real life you run like hell, hammer anything you see on the way by going hell for leather, drop mags and keep running like your life depends on it, reloading as you go. This is what you do when ambushed and will get the biggest number of you alive on the far side. Practice like your life depends on it, not like your life is a game.

theindependentamerican.freeyellow.com - the mag for a real life.
 
Old February 27th, 2004 #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Granddragon36
OK, which quote from Chairman Jeff? While Jeff used to have his head together, lately he has been getting doofier and doofier. Hey, he's old and it happens. This does not take away from what he has done in the past however.

My personal view (from being shot at) is to dump the mag and put another one in any time I have the time (ie: behind something solid and not shooting), and if I can I'll pick the mag up, but I will NOT pull the used mag out, hold it in my hand and then pull a loaded mag out and put it in the gun and THEN put the semi-loaded mag in my pocket. This is as near suicide as you can get in real life.

When doing a "jungle run", the gamers walk or trot and look all over for targets, stop to shoot and then go on. This will get you killed in real life. In real life you run like hell, hammer anything you see on the way by going hell for leather, drop mags and keep running like your life depends on it, reloading as you go. This is what you do when ambushed and will get the biggest number of you alive on the far side. Practice like your life depends on it, not like your life is a game.

theindependentamerican.freeyellow.com - the mag for a real life.
cant argue with that.
 
Old February 28th, 2004 #75
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I go with 9mm. Why? Well it's cheap to shoot as I don't reload. 9mm is cheaper because it is a military round and factories mass produce the cartridge for military contracts which offsets the price for civilian sales. Additionally, with Corbon or any number of ammo offerings the 9mm is just as effective as anything else out there. Yes I'm familiar with the stories of .38's being shot at doped up Moro's in the Philippines, with no effect, what's odd is that I've never heard the Germans complain of 9mm loadings in their submachine guns or their pistols during WW2. I think the value of the .45 acp is psychological for some people. Realistically in FMJ configuration is the .45 acp going to be that much better than the 9mm?

Last edited by wolfgar; February 28th, 2004 at 11:04 PM.
 
Old February 29th, 2004 #76
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Here are my two cents on this classic debate: It depends on the situation. Do I get a Nobel Prize for that brilliant insight?

Seriously though, neither caliber is best for all scenarios. Here's my understanding of some of the plusses and minuses of each -- if I'm wrong about anything, then I hope someone more knowledgeable will correct me.

Because a 9mm bullet is faster than a .45, 9mm has better penetration power for many types of obstacles and even light body armor (NIJ Class I). The drawback is that 9mm is known to be mediocre in the manstopping department, especially if you're using FMJ. This is even true when it's fired from submachine guns, let alone handguns -- a lot of SWAT pigs have bitched that their 9mm MP5s weren't taking out the housewives and grandfathers quickly enough. If you're up against a determined opponent who can shoot back, stopping power is obviously crucial.

Because .45 bullets are fat and slow, penetration of cover is not their strong suit. I believe even concealable NIJ Class I body armor will stop a .45 fired from a 5" barrel. However, the stopping power of the .45 is well-known and is even pretty good with ball ammo. That's important because even if you're shooting HP, thick clothing worn by your target can "clog" a hollowpoint and prevent it from expanding when it finally goes into his flesh; thus, a HP can sometimes only act as a FMJ anyway, and that's when a fatter bullet is nice to have.

All in all, I prefer the .45 over the 9mm, but to each his own. As far as which handgun is best, it's a good idea to try a few out before making a decision, if possible. Nevertheless, I strongly believe that Glocks are the best handguns by far. They are essentially impervious to rust and have their metal parts coated with a finish ("Tenifer") that is harder than an industrial file and nearly as hard as diamond! The plastic frames have a bit of flex in them, but they are still stronger than the steel of other guns. Glocks are also very reliable and accurate, and their barrels do not get "shot out." They essentially last forever unless you shoot bad reloads or all-lead bullets through them. Finally, you get all that for a price no higher than that of inferior guns.

A note about revolvers. The most potent .357 Mag load is probably the Federal 357B, which statistics have shown to have better stopping power than any other handgun round (including more powerful calibers). This is because too much power can cause an HP bullet to enter and exit your assailant before it even gets a chance to expand. The 125-grain 357B has just the right amount of power; however, its muzzle blast is pretty significant. It's not painful, but it's somewhat annoying and slows follow-up shots. Women and smaller men would be better served by a good .38 Special or a less potent .357 than the 357B.


BTW: If it comes down to getting a rifle versus getting a handgun, it is far more important to get a rifle!

As far as rifles go, I'm going to respectfully disagree about the Mini-14 or Mini-30 and recommend a good AK or AR-15 instead. I've heard just too many bad things about the Ruger Mini rifles -- that they overheat quickly, become very inaccurate during rapid fire, etc.

ARs have many advantages, but most have to be kept fairly clean. If you get an AR-15, do NOT get one with a .223 chamber unless it's going to be used strictly for target shooting. Get one with a chamber cut to miltary specs, i.e., for 5.56 NATO caliber. .223 and 5.56 are NOT precisely the same caliber, though they're very similar and are often used interchangeably. Anyone who says otherwise does not know what he's talking about. Also make sure the chamber and bore are chrome-plated. For a good AR-15 manufacturer, I recommend Bushmaster.

The AK variants are almost always more reliable than AR-15s, although there are lemons in any group (and I have an AR carbine that seems incapable of jamming). If you get an AK, you should go for the higher end of the scale rather than buying some used piece of shit. Something like this would probably be ideal: http://www.ak-103.com/.

Whatever you buy, be sure to research the reputation of the manufacturer. Some are known for putting out crappy products (e.g., Hesse) and others are known for bad customer service.
 
Old February 29th, 2004 #77
Gruniak
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I can't believe I let a "9mm v .45" thread go this long without speaking my piece.

Here's some comments distilled from my observations and experience to date:

.45: I have no regular experience with one. However, this is the one round to choose, provided one shoots it accurately. Even ball ammo will at least put your opponent on his ass for a few moments. And the first few moments of a pistol fight are the most important. Better for that guy to drop for 10 seconds or so, and then get up and walk towards the rest of his life- provided YOU have the situation then in hand and decide to let him- than for a lighter-yet-faster projectile to put two, thorugh-and through drain holes in him, yet leave him standing for a few seconds or more, sending rounds in your direction for that duration. If you are thinking about buying one in this caliber, I suggest a Glock 30, a Colt (yes, a current Colt) 1911, or a Sig P220 or P245. Whatever fits your hand best, which is a more important consideration than cost or magazine capacity.

9mm: My current carry piece is a 9mm. This in general is more controllable than a .45 for many people. You will also find 9mm ammo anywhere ammo is sold, cheaper than larger and some smaller calibers. All of us ought to have at least one 9mm in the selection.

For first-timers I recommend either a Glock 26 or Sig P239, again whichever fits the hand best. The 115 gr. ball ammo is adequate for practice, but for practical applications I'd use 124 gr.+P from Speer/Federal/Winchester etc. I've heard a tale about a one-shot drop in NYC with a Speer 124 +P Gold Dot, zum beispiel. But you're gonna be double-tapping with a 9mm anyway, and two doses of that will knock someone down sooner and deader than with a single .45.

.38 Special: Not to be overlooked. Remember that character that rushed into the Capitol Building a few years back? Remember the 2 or 3 guards he tagged? All moving melon shots with a .38. According to scuttlebutt certain of the heavier +P 158 gr. loadings mimic the terminal ballistic effects of a .45. However in practice this is a double-tap deal just like the 9mm.

For snubbies people recommend: 125 gr. +P (if a steel gun); or standard pressure hollowpoint 125gr. or anything else 147 to 158 gr. For 4-in barreled revolvers add 147-158 gr. +P. Limit aluminum-framed revolvers to standard pressure.

Note that for the most part revolvers are indeed more accurate than semi-auto pistols. However revolvers are generally chambered for rounds that are harder to shoot accurately for most people (like magnum rounds) than are semi-autos. Which is why revolvers for the heavier cartridges are used mostly for hunting. Yet a decent .38 wiil stiil do you for a jaunt to the corner store for milk & beer & stuff.

Those in the market should know that modern Taurus revolvers are actually constructed with no more or even fewer per-unit fuckups than current Smith & Wesson offerings. But S&W offers no quality or functional premium corresponding to the extra money spent. If you're not in a bleeding hurry I suggest scouring the local shops for an older used S&W in very good shape. Check for shiny bore, a tight action, slick & crisp trigger action, pinned barrel, and more-or-less intact finish, in that order. If it's still in that blue cardboard box, all the better. They should go for somewhat less than a new Taurus. Commercially-available S&W pieces from the late fifties, sixties, and early seventies will be made of better materials and show more White Man craftmanship and attention-to-detail than can be found anywhere today outside of custom shops, if even there. In contrast, just about any new, modern revolver you will find on a shelf in a store will have a shitty (i.e., heavy & draggy) trigger pull, tooling marks, and so on.

.22: also should be in everyone's collection. Even the good ammo is cheap. Good for basic marksmanship practice, dinner-sized varmints, etc. Note that the Mossad (I know, I know) is rumored to be proficient at dispatching their targets with a head-shot .22. A Ruger Mark II should fit the bill for any of us, Browning Buckmark if you must.

.357, .40, 10 mm, .41, .44: all good rounds for the proper purpose. Demonstrate adequacy of not proficiency in two of the above before you move to one of these five.

If any of you think I'm talking out of my ass here, well maybe I am. But the above is the advice I would give myself if I had the opportunity 20 or so years ago when I got started in this whole gun thing.

As others mentioned, pick your piece, then practice, practice with different flavors of ammo, find the ammo/gun combination that results in YOU getting the best groupings YOU are capable of, and go from there.

Last edited by Gruniak; February 29th, 2004 at 09:10 PM.
 
Old March 1st, 2004 #78
Antiochus Epiphanes
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I followed the publication "gun tests" for years, and they would do side by side comparisons of taurus and SW identical models such as the 22 revolver. the SW were said to be tigher with slightly better fit and finish and usually more accurate.

in most cases not worth the money, like a 38 or whatever, but for a handgun hunter it might make a diff.

as for the abundance of 9mm, that is definitely its strongest point and not to be under-appreciated. so have a 9mm handgun in your stash. meantime, carry the biggest caliber up to 45 your can tote given the circumstances.
 
Old March 1st, 2004 #79
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OK, lets compare apples to apples. ALL countries that fought natives, as opposed to "civilized countries", went big bore. The Brits with the .577 pistols, the USSA with the .45 Colt, etc. The Germans went with the 9mm, the Swiss with the .30 Luger, etc. Yeah that's fine for full auto use, dumping a 30 round mag of anything, including .22 LR will screw up any one's day. You could use a American 180 full auto (180 rd drum) and shoot a telephone pole in half!

When a 9mm hits bone, like the arm, it stops. That is why cops used to be taught to put an arm over their chest. A .45 breaks the bone. The 9mm is cheaper. OK, you know what your life is worth. If you want to practice or have any cartridge available to shoot, get a 1911-A1 in .45 and conversion kits for .22 LR, 9mm/.38 Super (south of the border), .40 S&W. There are also con kits to convert the 1911 to a rifle.

Best gun to have in a fight? The one you have with you. The .22 in your pocket beats the .50 AE at home.

Gotta go! Talk soon!

theindependentamerican.freeyellow.com - the mag for the REAL life!
 
Old March 2nd, 2004 #80
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Yeah, A.E., that's the gist of what I got the few years I subscribed to Gun Tests. Much better than them, though, are the gun forums. I'd ask a question or do a search, and at least ten people who owned the same gun would chime in with their experiences, whereas GT would test just the one of each.

Taurus had started as the maker of cheap crappy knockoffs of S&W. They got marginally better as S&W began their descent, reaching their nadir in the late '90s through about 2002. In that same time period Taurus thanks to new QC & CNC tooling was making pretty decent stuff, with tighter barrel/cylinder gaps, for example, and fewer "oops" type nicks, gouges, & such in the metalworking. The latest S&W offerings, with the laser-etched emblems, seem pretty neat, from my side of the counter glass. Expect atrocious trigger pulls in any modern regular-production revolver: decent trigger pulls require better materials and workmanship than will be found below a certain price level.

Your assessment is correct: for a snubbie to tuck under one's right nut, a Taurus will suffice. However, for a duty or hunting piece, one should go with a Colt or a S&W Custom Shop model. That is, if one were buying a new revolver. I'd still avoid any Taurus auto or any non-Tactical S&W auto.

My preference and recommendation for revolvers is still older S&W's in good shape. I didn't know what old-school American White Man gun craftmanship was, until I obtained a .38 15-1, a late 50's/early 60's model. Christ, the metalwork, action, and finish (Carbonia bluing, which I understand is now an environmental no-no) just cannot be reproduced anymore (on the gun forums, that's attributed merely to general-purpose American industrial entropy. Those of us who graduated to VNN know better). At the time, this was standard day-to-day output. Now, that's custom shop type of work. How many thousands more languish on store shelves beneath newer, more hyped guns?
 
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