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Old September 9th, 2005 #1
ngrh8r
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Default Bladed Weapons - Cutting vs. Thrusting

I used "bladed weapons" rather than "swords" in the title, since this debate
can extend to knives/daggers, and to a limited degree, even polearms.

I've always found the sword to be the most beautiful and elegant of weapons. A tremendous amount of focus and concentration is required just to wield one without danger to oneself. After all, even a novice can pick up a weapon like the quarterstaff(rokushakubo) or nunchuku without suffering more than some nasty bumps and bruises. I've seen a friend lose most of a thumb trying to imitate Iaijutsu, which he said was "easy".

We know that thrusting and cutting(slashing) both have their pros and cons, but does one method have a distinct advantage over the other? Lets look at some of the facts:
 
Old September 9th, 2005 #2
ngrh8r
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Thrusting Techniques:
Pros
1)better cance of a first-strike kill; a deeper wound causes more damage
2)effective against heavy armor; even the strongest plate has gaps
3)quicker(usually); no "wind-up" required
4)requires less space; a real advantage indoors

Cons
1)less versatile; linear strikes all follow the same path of attack
2)easily deflected; a thust can be parried with less force and less chance of blade damage
3)slower recovery; the arm must be retracted after a thrust, whereas a missed cut can return from a different angle for a 2nd attack
4)a successful attack may leave you briefly stuck; certainly not good when facing multiple opponents
 
Old September 10th, 2005 #3
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_____
Before I start, here's a few things that struck me (har har) reading this.

Your 'pros' are all right enough, but I wanted to comment on your 'cons' list.

1: This is why footwork is doubly, hell, quadruply important with duelling weapons: when you thrust at someone, you can only really do it from the 90 degrees in front in them. I would say that this is also why footwork is so, so important in boxing, as well.

2: Thrusts are a lot harder to block or redirect than slashes (assuming that you are using a suitable weapon, i.e.: not trying to block a sweeping blow of a claymore with a rapier).

3: A thrust is actually (at least in potential) a lot, lot quicker than a slash, and has a lot quicker recovery time to get back in guard: it travels less distance and it's a much more efficient motion.

4: This is why you have to never thrust so far that your elbow is completely straight and locked. Not to mention, doing so tires your arm out in no time.
_____

Now, reading this, you might think that my view is that stabbing weapons are just... better, in most respects, than slashing weapons.

And that would be absolutely true, if not for one vital aspect of a slashing weapon: you can engage multiple opponents with a slash, whereas it's in the nature of a good thrust that it's intended to dispatch ONE person at a time.

As far as that goes, you can see how this would work with the prototypical Romans versus Northern 'Barbarians' situation: the Romans would almost always have an advantage in logistics and therefore in troop concentrations possible, so they found the thrusting weapon, whether the pilum or the gladius, to suit their armies best.

Whereas the tribe in question would generally be at a numerical disadvantage, and so would be more likely to employ thrusting weapons in a first charge on Roman formations, then to plunge into the Roman ranks and set to with swords or axes (or whatever else).

That's also why thrusting weapons became supreme when swordsmanship for practical matters, being eclipsed in warfare by gunnery, became mostly a matter of settling one-on-one disputes.
 
Old September 10th, 2005 #4
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Well, it's an ages old and world-wide argument. What sucks is that weapon stylists rarely have an opportunity to face other styles, ie; Kendo dojos don't compare and compete with European fencers. I think a Katana-style hilt and blade shape should be allowed in saber fencing. Too bad you live in Australia, otherwise we could brake out some wooden wasters and "debate". Oh well.
 
Old September 11th, 2005 #5
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Yeah. Well, that's too bad for me, ha ha. (says I with my forearms covered in yellow and green bruises )

BTW, I realise that regarding all swords as being 'slashing' or 'stabbing' weapons only, is to distort reality a little. But in actual fact, no sword that is made primarily for slashing will ever be as effective at stabbing*, as a sword that is made for primarily for stabbing. And vice versa#.

*: Like any sort of Western-style straight two handed sword with a point on it, like a claymore or a German zwei-hander.

#: Like an old-school rapier.
 
Old September 11th, 2005 #6
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On the other hand, think what a thrust with a greatsword could do to a nigger.
I hear ya on the bruises, though. Lately I've been using these big-ass Lacrosse-type gloves and rattan wasters. Marginally safer, anyway. I hate going against newbies, since they think every blow has to be a haymaker designed to remove your head. What really pisses me off is how many guys brag about their swordsmanship, but are unwilling to prove it. I'm just talking about a friendly match, I'm not looking to split open anyones skull. The other day I respectfully challenged a Kendoka who just finished bragging about holding several local awards. He flat out refused, even when I offered to let him wear his bogu(spp?) and use bamboo shinai. WTF?
Anyhow, I certainly hope everyone at least agrees with my opinion that even the worst styles of European swordplay are infinitely better than anything a dirty yellow slope ever came up with.
 
Old December 29th, 2008 #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by einzelwesen View Post
. . . no sword that is made primarily for slashing will ever be as effective at stabbing*, as a sword that is made for primarily for stabbing. And vice versa#.

*: Like any sort of Western-style straight two handed sword with a point on it, like a claymore or a German zwei-hander.

#: Like an old-school rapier.
I differ from this view.
Consider the Japanese katana.
I am a student of Iaido and I can assure you that a katana is just as effective as a stabbing weapon as it is a slashing weapon.
The katana is a tremendously versatile weapon that puts the fear of God into any untrained person who is confronted by someone who knows how to use one.
 
Old February 19th, 2011 #8
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Default Knifeblades in the skull not always lethal

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/gall...ing_xrays.html





These X-rays provide a glimpse of some amazing incidents perhaps better left to the imagination.

A Chinese man's stabbing headache ended this week when doctors removed a rusty 4-inch knife blade that had been lodged in his skull for four years. Li Fuyan said a robber had stabbed him on the right side of his jaw. For years, Li had suffered from severe headaches and had trouble breathing, but didn't know it was because a knife blade was stuck inside his head, reported The Associated Press.

'As time passed, I used injections to kill the pain in my head and ears,' Li, 30, told Chinese state TV. 'It has been four years already.'

The hospital announced on Feb. 18 that the surgery was successful, calling it a 'miracle.'
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Old December 22nd, 2006 #9
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When using an ice-pick, thrusting is best. But when using a straight-razor, slashing is best. (unless you are actually using it to shave yourself.)
 
Old December 23rd, 2006 #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nxhiku
When using an ice-pick, thrusting is best. But when using a straight-razor, slashing is best. (unless you are actually using it to shave yourself.)

So that's what I've been doing wrong...
 
Old December 25th, 2006 #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nxhiku
When using an ice-pick, thrusting is best. But when using a straight-razor, slashing is best. (unless you are actually using it to shave yourself.)
You mean I'm supposed to stab my face?
 
Old December 25th, 2006 #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sándor Petőfi
You mean I'm supposed to stab my face?

Works for me. I just tell everyone it's acne scars.
 
Old December 26th, 2006 #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngrh8r
Works for me. I just tell everyone it's acne scars.
Bloody mental!!
 
Old January 8th, 2007 #14
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Having recently gotten rid of all my knifes, I wouldn’t advise anybody to carry one let alone use one. But if you must then the best piece of advice I can give you is this. DON'T EVER STAB, ALWAYS SLASH!

Here in the UK that could be the difference between getting charged for assault and attempted (or even actual) murder. In other words a few years or a life sentence...
 
Old February 19th, 2007 #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngrh8r View Post
I used "bladed weapons" rather than "swords" in the title, since this debate
can extend to knives/daggers, and to a limited degree, even polearms.

I've always found the sword to be the most beautiful and elegant of weapons. A tremendous amount of focus and concentration is required just to wield one without danger to oneself. After all, even a novice can pick up a weapon like the quarterstaff(rokushakubo) or nunchuku without suffering more than some nasty bumps and bruises. I've seen a friend lose most of a thumb trying to imitate Iaijutsu, which he said was "easy".

We know that thrusting and cutting(slashing) both have their pros and cons, but does one method have a distinct advantage over the other? Lets look at some of the facts:
Depends on what you want to do. I learned knife fighting from an uncle that grew up in the 50s when guys were tied at the wrists and went at it. The big thing I learned was that even a pocketknife, choked up and using only 1/4" of the blade makes shallow, painful slashes. I can attest that it works in real life and will get someone away from you. I suppose if you want to kill someone then a "bear slayer" huge blade is a good thing. I have a "bear slayer" that is a stainless diving knife. It's a big sucker that I keep in my bugout bag as a tool. It is impractical otherwise.

I carry a pocketknife, useful for the aforementioned as well as a lockback folding knife with a 4" blade. I consider the 4" blade the most useful tool to have and not just for defense but also for skinning, gutting, working, etc. The lockback I use is sold by Klein Tools, Inc. and came with a nifty holder with a belt loop.

Of course, some of you are getting into what I consider "esoteric" types of bladed weapons. I am just an average guy carrying something that noone gives a second look at. Show up with a cutlass and you'll get more attention than you want.

Quote:
Dies Irae Technique is only peripheral in a situation in which you're using a knife to defend your life. People who focus on technique will always lose to an opponent whose determination to win is greater. He who does not hesitate to do whatever is necessary to win will be the victor, provided there is hesitation and a lack of resolve from his opponent.
That is why I stick with slashing. Slice the forehead good and your opponent won't even be able to see.

Note that in police training they are taught to take a man with a knife OUT. Cops do not screw around with a knife wielder because they know that they are just this close to being sliced and diced.
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Old February 23rd, 2007 #16
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Quote:
Why Cops Shoot Guys with Knives
The officer figured, due to his size and fighting skills, he could disarm a knife wielding aggressor.
To all the idiots out there who always say, "Why did the cops have to shoot him? He only had a (insert your choice of weapons here, i.e. knife, bat, club. whatever) he didn't have to be shot", you should look at the photos.

If an officer tells you to drop your weapon, just drop it. If you're a retard, stupid, on crack, mental or just "scared" ... too bad. No one deserves what this cop got for just doing his job.

This is vivid proof of how deadly people who are "only armed with a knife" can be. Some of the public think that officers should try to disarm someone armed with a knife but anyone who has had training in knife fighting will tell you even if you win, you are going to get cut.
Keep this in the back of your mind when confronting someone armed with an edged weapon.
http://blogidaho.blogspot.com/2007/0...th-knives.html





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Old March 18th, 2007 #17
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Stab or slash, both are available options for a tool that does both well. It is not a good idea to limit yourself to one or the other.

Actual studies by the French Military of the 18th century showed them that stabs were more deadly than slashes. So, they redesigned the swords of their cavalry to make stabs more efficient. Slashes make horrible wounds but stabs reach the internal organs and are thus more deadly.

German officers who studied swordsmanship with the Japanese concluded that the European rapier or epee were more useful weapons than the Japanese katana. But when you are fighting against a three foot long razor blade, you'd better be quick.

The Japanese spear usually had a cross-piece on the pole. This prevented a swordsman who had been pierced through with the spear from running himself through along the pole to cut off the head of the spearman.

All of these weapons are nasty tools for serious work. And all of them, regardless of design, depend upon the skill of he who wields it. So, of course, it is your practice that gives you perfection more so than the tools with which you practice.

Last edited by banjo_billy; March 18th, 2007 at 07:45 AM.
 
Old December 6th, 2007 #18
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realisticly you arent going to carry around any type of sword/spear/axe these days
so that leaves daggers and knives if we are talking about stab slash option
a single edge knife with a thick blade is the best combination(like a bowie knife) imo. if you are going for a kill you come from behind and stab the neck/throat then slash at you draw the blade out
if its a hand to hand combat situation, stabs are more deadly but harder to land, which is why a thick knife is better than a dagger, slash a few times to get him on the defencive then move in for a stab
 
Old December 7th, 2007 #19
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They produce some really nice single hand open knives with a clip for easy access. I don’t see why someone would be confined to just slashing or thrusting. Get a good knife with a sharp point then you can do both. However you won’t be able to do either one if you can’t sharpen a knife. I am amazed at the number of people who don’t know how to properly sharpen a knife. The reason is most books and websites on the subject show a person how to sharpen a knife for cutting boxes or whittling not fighting.

Any knife I carry is sharp enough to shave, that way there is no effort in cutting. It dulls quicker than a knife with a slightly duller edge but if I need to cut something I want my knife to be ready on the spot to do the job. I can always sharpen it later when I am finished.

You don’t have to spend a bundle to get a good knife. I would spend $40 max for a good functional knife. I know people who spend $200 on a pocketknife then lose it or break it. Get a good $15-25 knife from Wal-mart, keep the receipt and if it doesn’t function as promised take it back for a refund or exchange.
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Old December 7th, 2007 #20
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Also don't be afraid to have 'purpose built' knives. A good all-around well-built knife is great, but I keep a Spyderco Yojimbo in each front pocket for one purpose only. I use a cheaper multi-role pocket knife for 'utility' duties.
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