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Old January 21st, 2009 #1841
Greg Gerdes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,129
Greg Gerdes
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retardo:

"actually my position is that the whole mass murder can be and has been proven without establishing the precise location and size of each of the mass graves in the Treblinka "death camp" sector, which has not been done yet at Treblinka like it has been done at Belzec and Sobibor."

Really dullone? First off, you claim only 60% of the alleged Sobibor holocaust has been proven, not "the whole mass murder."

Second, If "the whole mass murder has been proven" at Sobibor, then why can't you show us the location of the 3 "huge mass graves" that were allegedly found "sometime in the sixties?"

Let's see a map that shows the location of all alleged "huge mass gravs" found.


Let's see you answer the question - how many graves in total have allegedly been located at Sobibor?


retardo:

"actually my position is that the whole mass murder [at Treblinka] can be and has been proven without establishing the precise location and size of each of the mass graves in the Treblinka "death camp" sector."

Translation:

Not so much as one single "huge mass grave" at Treblinka that contains just one:

1 - Complete human body in a "wax fat transformation."

2 - Complete human skeleton.

3 - Complete human skull

4 - Complete human bone.

5 - Human bone fragment.

6 - Human tooth.

7 - Ounce of human ash.

8 - Spent bullet.

9 - Shell casing.

has ever been found.

NOT ONE!


And "each mass grave?" How many are we talking about? And what is there general location. Show us on a map the location of the remains of the 870,000 jews alleged to have been murdered, buried, dug up, burned (NOT cremated), crushed (into bone fragments - NOT "ashes") and reburied INTO THE SAME "HUGE MASS GRAVES."

Just do the best you can dullone. Narrow it down to the best of your limited ability.

Last edited by Greg Gerdes; January 22nd, 2009 at 08:07 PM.
 
Old January 22nd, 2009 #1842
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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What did Gerdes do in response to my posts # 1839 under http://vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p=9...postcount=1839 ?

Well, just what I expected the compulsive liar, whimpering coward and pitiable retard to do.

Apart from shooting some bull as his alter-ego "T.F.Sheb", he dished up more of his standard waffle, which he could have avoided if he had read my post # 1833 under http://vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p=9...postcount=1833 and my blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...th-update.html with more attention (what mass graves "allegedly" found at Sobibor in the 1960s is he babbling about, by the way?) – and if he had brains instead of manure inside his skull, which might for instance have kept him from writing stuff like the "you claim only 60% of the alleged Sobibor holocaust has been proven" nonsense (estimates on the death toll of large-scale massacres usually differ, and preferring a lower figure wholly substantiated by evidence over a higher one based on extrapolations from partial data is altogether reasonable), among other repetitive showpieces of his ignorance and/or imbecility.

Gerdes’ misrepresentations of my statements, however (namely when he deliberately "misunderstands" my position that the whole mass murder can be and has been proven without establishing the precise location and size of each of the mass graves in the Treblinka "death camp" sector, by nonsensically emphasizing the "each"), do not result from the fellow’s lack of brain or his hysteria but from his pathetic compulsion to lie. He seems to think that people are stupid enough to fall for his pathetic attempts at wisecracking.

Of course Gerdes latest trash isn’t enough to break the "ignore" deadlock and get our discussion going again. What Gerdes must do to break the "ignore" deadlock and get my discussion with him on this forum going again, as he well knows because I have told him many times, is to post a statement that reads as follows:

"I am prepared to, from now on, also answer questions and respond to challenges myself, and to address my opponent’s arguments and the evidence presented by my opponent (all of it)."

But that’s not about to happen, of course, because Fatso Gerdes:



it too much a



to post this simple statement.

So the ignore situation remains as concerns discussion on this forum.

Meanwhile, on the CODOH thread http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=5304 , compulsive liar and whimpering coward Gerdes, getting more insane by the hour, has let fly with another of his hysterical tirades. I’ll have some fun with it in the following.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The very first thing I want to point out it this –

THIS IS NO JOKE – this is an honest to goodness discovery.

And before you get your undies in a bundle, I am not pulling a Weber or an Irving here.

Let me make myself completely clear. You need to understand EXACTLY what I’m saying, and EXACTLY what I’m not saying.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
My statement of fact:

I have identified the location of Lukaszkiewicz’s pit that he describes in his official protocol after his investigation of Treblinka from Nov. 9 – 13, 1945.
Wow, could it be that the blind hen found a grain for a change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
PLEASE NOTICE – I am NOT saying that I have located / proven the existence of said pit.
Yep, that would be too bad for Gerdes’ articles of faith. He might as well pack up and cut his crap for good if he admitted that Lukaszkiewicz description of the pit in question is accurate, actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
There is a difference and that difference will be clarified and explained further on.
So whimpering coward Gerdes has finally found the little courage necessary to explain what it is he would accept as proof and to identify the rules and standards of evidence – other than his irrelevant own – that his requirements are based on? I won’t believe it until I see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Please trust me on this and just hear me out.
I wouldn’t trust Gerdes to correctly tell me what time of the day it is, but "Revisionist" cloud-cuckoo-land is full of hopeless suckers. And it’s amusing to see how desperately the poor fellow is yelping for his buddies’ attention. He must be very lonely (unsurprisingly so – who would want to get within ten feet of that skunk?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Again, this is no joke. This isn’t something that I’m doing to poor Mulecamp to rub his nose in one of his many lies.
Actually I have long lost count of the lies I have rubbed poor Gerdes’ nose in (there are times when there’s at least one new lie in every post that is not a copy-and-paste repetition of a former post, actually), whereas the poor fellow has made a bloody fool out of himself every time he has accused me of lying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
To be sure, this is one of the issues he lies about, and I in fact will be rubbing his nose in it – hard.
Unlike self-projecting liar Gerdes, I don’t lie about anything, and I’m looking forward to his making a fool of himself once more as he tries to "rub my nose" in another of his hallucinations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
However, you need to understand that I am being entirely serious, and not sophistic in any way. If you’re confused about what I’m saying, just stay with me here. You will understand soon enough.
Poor Gerdes seems to be aware that even his "Revisionist" buddies consider him a hopeless crank, hence his pleading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
PLEASE NOTICE - What I’m NOT saying:

I’m not saying that I agree with everything that Lukaszkiewicz says he found, or how he found it.
Yeah, we know Gerdes only "agrees" with the part of Lukaszkiewicz’ report that fit his ideological bubble, never mind that these very parts show Lukaszkiewicz to have been an honest judge and not a manipulator. You can’t have it both ways, chimp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Lukaszkiewicz was a liar, working hand-in-hand with the Soviet / comjunist propagandists.
And how would Gerdes know that? Little birdie told him? Actually there’s no evidence that Lukaszkiewicz had anything to do with "the Soviet / comjunist [love the spelling] propagandists". Why, Poland was not even yet a Communist country when Lukaszkiewicz undertook his investigations, and while the Communists had much power at the time already, the ordinary judicial system was not (yet) noted for being under their influence. But who would expect Gerdes to know anything about Polish history?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Nor am I saying that there exists any mass graves at Treblinka.
Sure, for that would be too bright a spark of rare lucidity. It might react unfavorably with the methane released by the manure inside Gerdes’ skull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Again, I’m simply saying this: I have identified the location of Lukaszkiewicz’s pit that he describes in his official protocol after his investigation of Treblinka from Nov. 9 – 13, 1945.
Then why doesn’t he show something, instead of jumping up and down announcing his oh-so-spectacular find?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Now, let me explain further. Like so many things about the hoax, this isn’t going to be hard to understand, but it will take some concentration to sift through all the BS and lies. Once we get to the end, you will understand how easy it was and that the evidence has been under our noses for 65 years.
Ladies & Gentleman, Mr. Gerdes will give us another lesson in cloud-cuckoo-land fantasies. Please stay around, for it is certain to be boring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Also understand this. Contrary to what your initial impression might have been, the following information will not strengthen the exterminationist’s position about the alleged Treblinka holocaust. It will in fact help destroy the myth. I am confident that those that follow along with me while I go through this are going to be convinced that what I am about to present is not only true, but unassailable and irrefutable.
Wishful thinking is also thinking, usually the only thinking that the likes of Gerdes are capable of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
So let me start by showing you what Lukaszkiewicz claims that he found during his investigation of Treblinka:

Quote:
“The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters - its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains - was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition. The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here.”
Err, why "claims"? Is there any indication that this is not an accurate description of findings on site? It matches all other evidence about what happened at Treblinka, especially the body disposal, and as Lukaszkiewicz was honest enough to admit that he didn’t find two other interesting features of the extermination camp site that he would certainly have very much liked to find, there’s absolutely no reason to assume that he made up this description.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Again, I’m not saying that I agree or have proven the specifics.
No, we know that Gerdes only agrees with and considers proven what he deems convenient to his stance. Where he thinks Lukaszkiewicz’ reports can be used to support the "Revisionist" position, the judge’s word is as good as gold for the chimp. However, as I said before, he can’t have it both ways.

[quote=Gerdes]All I’m saying is, is that - I have identified the location of Lukaszkiewicz’s pit that he describes in his official protocol after his investigation of Treblinka from Nov. 9 – 13, 1945.[quote]

Gerdes should avoid repeating himself too much. Even his CODOH buddies might get bored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
I hope I haven’t bored you all with this overly long introduction, but it was very important to get off on the right foot here. And I’m not going to show you a photo and tell you were it is. That will come at the end. I’m going to walk everyone through my thought process and logic used in my assessment of his investigation and my analysis of it and Treblinka photos. I want to “show my work,” as well as take this opportunity to teach the truth about the Treblinka holohoax. So I’m going to start at the beginning and go slow, giving everyone an opportunity to check my work, so everyone can see clearly what the facts are and that I’m not being deceitful or sophistic in any way. I want people to not just know, but UNDERSTAND how we know and how I came to the conclusions that I have.
Big words and big promises, but who has got to know Gerdes as I have over the past months will be very surprised if the mountain should give birth to anything bigger than a mouse. Actually I have a hunch of what he’ll come up with – and I’m not exactly holding my breath.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
I also want to point out that in trying to find the truth about this pit, I have proven my own long held hunch about its location was wrong.
So glad to hear that, though I don’t think Gerdes was ever interested in finding the truth about anything. What’s that hunch of his supposed to have been, by the way? Just curious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
So let the lesson begin.
Another lesson about what brilliant minds it is that "Revisionism" appeals to? Great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
But before we do, does anyone have any questions?
[Cue deafening silence from a confused "Revisionist" audience.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Well, I see that 66 people have looked at this thread with no questions, so I guess my introduction was clear enough.
I wouldn’t trust Cesspit viewing statistics, if I were Gerdes. Might be just Jonni "Hannover" Hargis opening the thread dozens of times to make believe it is being read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
So let's start at with the introduction:

The Modus Operandi of the Soviets / Comjunists
… as imagined by an ignorant “Revisionist” cretin. And I just love those "Comjunists".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
After the discovery of the mass graves of Katyn and Vinnitsa by the Germans, Soviet propaganda switched over to a counter-attack by mainly using two ploys: It attempted to place the blame for atrocities committed by the Soviet secret service - the NKVD (predecessor of the KGB), on the Germans, and it made maliciously fraudulent claims of discovering “huge mass graves” filled with murder victims of the Germans.
The former may be true for Katyn (don’t know about Vinnitsa), the latter is bullshit because the Soviets had no need to make "maliciously fraudulent claims". The mass graves they found were real, which we know because Soviet reports about them tend to coincide with German documents discovered by western investigators or historians (like the "Operational Situation Reports" of the Einsatzgruppen), with depositions of accused perpetrators and other eyewitnesses before West German courts, and with other evidence that the Soviets could have had no influence on and didn’t even know about. Examples of matching Soviet and non-Soviet evidence can be found on the Holocaust Controversies blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/ , especially in two articles under the following links:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...n-polesie.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...ave-found.html

My collection of photos under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/5963 contains a number of photographs pertaining to Nazi crimes on Soviet soil. These are some of them (captions are from the source featuring these photos, the Archives of the Ghetto Fighters’ House - http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh/gfh_eng.htm ):

A mass grave discovered in Iwje, Poland.


A Soviet investigating committee beside a mass grave of the Jews of Kozin, which they excavated.


A mass grave in Drobitski Yar near Kharkov.


A mass grave of Lenin Jewry (in the Polesye region, on the Russo - Polish border).


Bodies taken from a mass grave in Taganrov, Russia.


German soldiers standing amid the bodies lying in the mass grave in Vinnitsa, Ukraine.


The bodies of Jews from the Zolochev (Zloczow) ghetto, in a mass grave.


The bodies of Jews from the Zolochev (Zloczow) ghetto, exhumed from a mass grave after the liberation.


The bodies of women killed by the German army, in a mass grave in Kerch.


The excavation of mass graves at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna) in July 1944.


Corpses exhumed from mass graves at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna).


These photos, available on the site of the USHMM (http://www.ushmm.org/), are from Klooga concentration camp in Estonia, where Soviet troops found pyres with half-burned bodies of inmates killed by the camp staff before abandoning the place:







These are some of the photos from Majdanek, the first concentration camp on Polish soil liberated by the Soviets in 1944 (captions again from the source featuring these photos, the Archives of the Ghetto Fighters’ House):

The remains of corpses incinerated in the Majdanek camp's crematorium.


The bodies and partial remains of victims of the Majdanek camp.


A heap of bones and ashes of victims of the Majdanek camp.


A pile of bones and skulls of people killed in the Majdanek camp.
[img]http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh_multimedia/GFH/0000005009/0000005009_1_web.jpg[/mg]

A pile of bones of victims in the Majdanek camp.


A pile of bones and skulls of people killed in the Majdanek camp.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
As is well known, on April 13, 1943, in the forest of Katyn not far from Smolensk (Poland), the Germans, following directions from the local populace, found seven mass graves with a total of 4,143 bodies of Polish officers - who had been executed by the communists.
Gerdes didn’t pay attention in geography class. Katyn is in Russia, not in Poland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Between April and June, these mass graves were examined by a commission, which included medical doctors from 12 European nations, and further by a commission of the Polish Red Cross and by American, British and Canadian officers who were prisoners of war. The Germans published an extraordinarily well-documented official dossier afterwards, which contained all the forensic results of the investigation, 80 photographs, and the names of the victims identified.

The massacre of Vinnitsa (Ukraine) was uncovered by the Germans in June, 1943. At three different locations, the Germans found a total of 97 mass graves that contained the remains of 9,432 Ukrainians - who had been brutally murdered by the Soviets. No fewer than 14 commissions, 6 foreign ones among them, examined the graves. And in this case also, the Germans publicized the results of the well-documented forensic examinations.

After the communists had retaken the area around Smolensk, they then exhumed the bodies of Katyn - again - and summoned an “investigatory commission” consisting exclusively of Soviet citizens (the Burdenko Commission), which then charged the Germans with the massacre! This fraudulent claim - this falsification of history - was “proven” by the communists with “eyewitness testimonies,” photographs and falsified documents. (Which can still be found today in the archives of the Russian Federation in Moscow.)
Falsified documents? What falsified documents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Then, the Soviets presented this same fraudulent material at the Nuremberg show trial, where, with the knowing (wink wink) aid of the U.S., France and Britain – it was “proven” that the Germans had committed the crime!
No it was not. There’s nothing about the Katyn killings in the Nuremberg judgment (text available under http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/judcont.asp ), even though Katyn is mentioned in the indictment. And the Soviet Katyn allegations made for severe friction between the Soviets and the Western Allies already during the trial. The Western Allies already suspected what we know today – that the Soviets had done the killing. This because eyewitnesses not controlled by the Soviets contradicted the Soviet version. The Soviet Katyn hoax didn’t last long – at least on this side of the former Iron Curtain, and for all we know to this day it is the only case, during the Nuremberg Trials and after, in which the Soviets tried to frame the Nazis for something they had done themselves.

On the other hand, cross-checking Soviet evidence against evidence independent of the Soviets has in a great many cases (see examples in the above-mentioned articles) confirmed that Nazi mass crimes reported by the Soviets were actually Nazi mass crimes, and that the Soviets didn’t even necessarily exaggerate the scale of these crimes. Trying to tar every Soviet investigation with the Katyn brush is but a baseless rhetorical subterfuge and a lame attempt by ideologically motivated fanatics to get rid of evidence inconvenient to their articles of faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
In order to lessen the impact of their war crimes at places like Katyn and Vinnitsa, the Soviets investigated all actual or invented crimes of the Germans in the territory reconquered by the Red Army. For this purpose, an investigatory commission was established in virtually every town.
Actually the Soviet Extraordinary Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes on Soviet Soil was formed long before the Germans made a fuss about the Soviet mass killings at Katyn and Vinnitsa, on 2 November 1942 (according to Wikipedia, see under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraor...ate_Commission ). So someone got his chronology wrong. If it’s Gerdes, big deal – he’s just a dumb and ignorant retard. But what if he’s plagiarizing Mattogno & Graf here? How would such a blunder look on these two gentlemen, who are supposed to be the cracks of "Revisionist research"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Since the Soviets had learned from Katyn the enormous propaganda effect of pictures, these commissions photographed all graves and bodies found. If however, the bodies were too small in number at a site, they then resorted to the dirty trick of photographing them several times from many different angles in order to create the cognitive illusion that their number was greater. The case of Osarichi illustrates this mental / emotional manipulative technique rather tellingly:

On March 12, 1944, the Germans interned the White Russian populace from in and around the village of Osarichi in two camps near the village, until March 18, the day of their liberation. After the liberation of these two camps, the Extraordinary State Commission for the Determination of the Crimes of the German Fascist Conquerors investigatory group alleged that the Germans had killed as many as 49,000 people - with 600 of those supposedly found lying on the ground and the remainder buried in a “huge mass grave.” However, when the Army photographers arrived at the scene, the TOTAL number of dead bodies found was - SEVEN! (Four children and three adults.) For this reason the photographers resorted to their usual trick: They photographed the bodies from different angles and the photos then gave the cognitive illusion that one was looking at several dozen dead bodies. Thus, from the “discovery” of these SEVEN bodies - the Soviets accused the Germans of murdering 49,000 people, while claiming to have “documented” the alleged massacre with photographs and “eyewitness testimonies” as “proof.” (There’s no proof that the Germans murdered so much as a single one.)
Actually 49,000 was more like the number of people left behind by the Germans in a concentration camp in the Ozarichi area, most of whom were rescued by the Red Army. But several thousand perished – 9,000 according to Soviet claims I have read about, less according to historians who have reconstructed events in the Ozarichi area largely on the basis of German documents (one of which mentions the shooting of several hundred people on the way to the camp, IIRC). In the Nuremberg indictment (see under http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/count3.asp ), Ozarichi was mentioned as follows:

Quote:
At the beginning of 1944 in the Ozarichi region of the Bielorussian S.S.R., before liberation by the Red Army, the Germans established three concentration camps without shelters, to which they committed tens of thousands of persons from the neighboring territories. They brought many people to these camps from typhus hospitals intentionally, for the purpose of infecting the other persons interned and for spreading the disease in territories from which the Germans were being driven by the Red Army. In these camps there were many murders and crimes.
Many murders and crimes, but not tens of thousands of dead.

Ozarichi was again mentioned in the morning session of 19 February 1946, as follows:

Quote:
To conclude the presentation of evidence relative to this matter, I shall only quote a few excerpts from the findings of the medical experts of epidemical diseases. The Tribunal will find it on the back of Page 454, second column of the text. This is Page 274 of the Russian text. I begin the quotation:

"(a) The German authorities placed together in concentration camps both the healthy and the typhus-stricken Soviet citizens.

"(b) In order to expedite the dissemination of typhus in the camps, the Germans used to transfer the typhus patients from one camp to another.

"(c) On many occasions when typhus patients refused to go into the camp, the German authorities used force.

"(d) German aggressors used to move typhus patients from hospitals into the camps and mixed them with the healthy camp inmates."

And the last paragraph:

"(e) The infecting of the Soviet population with typhus began in second half of February and was practiced to the middle of March."

The result of it was mass infection of the people interned in the camp, and the members of the Tribunal will find proof of this in the next paragraph where it is said that the Red Army Command sent 4,052 Soviet citizens to the hospitals, among them 2,370 children below 13 years of age, all liberated just from one hamlet of Ozarichi, in the Poless region.
No 49,000 killed here either. Could it be that Mattogno & Graf – who are obviously being plagiarized here by Gerdes – lied a bit more than usual here?

Not quite. This is what Mattogno & Graf write on page 219 of their Treblinka screed:

Quote:
Military correspondents, who took numerous photographs after the liberation of the two camps,619 belonged to this investigatory group. The number of victims being bruited about by diverse Soviet commissions diverge wildly and range from 8,000,620 past 9,000621 and up to 20,800,622 30,000,623 37,526,624 even 49,000.625
The possibility of source misrepresentation by Mattogno & Graf (which they are notorious for) aside, we see here that Gerdes considered only the highest of the death toll figures that, according to Mattogno & Graf, were claimed by the Soviets. It’s nothing that one wouldn’t expect from a lying fishwife like Gerdes, of course.

As to the photographs taken by the Soviets, Mattogno & Graf’s claims – again plagiarized by Gerdes – are simply grotesque. They write the following:

Quote:
When the Army photographers arrived at the scene, they sure found a horrible tableau, yet not quite horrible enough. The heart-rending sight was that of a group of seven bodies – four children and three adults – who were lying a short distance from one another on the ground. This sad find was excellently suited for purposes of propaganda, but the number of bodies was too small. For this reason the photographers resorted to a trick: they photographed the bodies from nine different angles and the photos then gave the impression that one was looking at several dozen dead bodies.630 A single body, which was lying somewhat off to the side of the rest, was photographed four times.631 In four other photos, an additional seven bodies not far distant from the rest can be recognized.632 In all, the first 15 photographs, which surely constitute the most terrible scenes to be found in the camp, show 15 bodies. Another horrible view was that of a ditch, of which one can see only the end in the photo; it is basically empty in the rear, and in the foreground are 7 or 8 bodies. The picture is a good fit for the 6 m × 3 m × 2 m pit previously described and contains 15 bodies.633 Further 14 photos show a total of 16 bodies.634
Doubtless this photographic documentation was somewhat too meager in order to confirm the death of between 8,000 and 49,000 human beings or – which flatly contradicts this number – the presence of even 600 bodies on the camp property!
Apparently Mattogno & Graf cannot make up their minds about how many bodies the Soviets are supposed to have photographed in total (is it 7, as they initially claim, or is it 15 + 7 or 8 + 16, as their later subsequent remarks suggest?), and the conclusion that the Soviets a) photographed bodies several times and b) did so because there were too few bodies is obviously based on nothing other than their personal opinion after looking at photographs included in a German publication about the Ozarichi crimes (Hans-Heinrich Nolte, Geiseln der Wehrmacht. Osaritschi, das Todeslager. Dokumente und Beleg, National Archive of the Republic of Belarus, Minsk 1999) and their equally personal wishful thinking (to put it politely). Are we asked to believe that the Soviets – who certainly had no dearth of dead bodies to photograph, as my above photos suggest – would have felt in the need of resorting to the kind of "trick" that Mattogno & Graf accuse them of?

The big howler, however, is the last paragraph: Mattogno & Graf seem to hold that if photographic documentation doesn’t cover the full extent of what becomes apparent from other evidence about the size of a given massacre, this means that such other evidence is contradicted. By such standards (which are no better than Gerdes imbecilic "show me just one this and that"), it must be assumed that the Soviets killed only a few hundred Poles at Katyn, rather than the 4,143 reportedly found by the Germans, as I pointed out under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...ave-found.html :

Quote:
There was hardly ever a mass murder investigation more publicized and propagandized than the German investigation of the Soviet killings of Polish POWs at Katyn, yet these photos, apparently the greater part of the 80 photographs that, according to Mattogno, accompanied the Nazis’ investigation report, seem to show at most a few hundred of the over 4,000 bodies found.
And what about the overwhelming majority of Soviet killing sites, from which there are no photos of dead bodies at all and which have in most cases not been investigated? Are Mattogno & Graf trying to tell us that one should forget about hundreds of thousands of Soviet murders, during Stalin’s purges in the 1930s and during World War II, because none of the killing sites was inspected by crime site investigators, not to mention the complete absence of photographs? Do they contend that the only crimes of Stalin’s that have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt are those committed at Katyn and Vinnitsa, and that only insofar as the dead bodies have been photographed? Or did it simply not occur to them what nonsense (self-defeating nonsense, unless they are also Stalin apologists besides Hitler-kissers) they wrote when they claimed that the number of bodies photographed can be used as a marker of a given massacre’s death toll?

I thank Gerdes for giving me the opportunity to do a little thrashing of Mattogno & Graf, which is an exercise I always enjoy. Now back to the chimp himself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
So, of the combined 62,575 real and contrived murders at the Katyn, Vinnitsa and Osarichi “holocaust” sites - 78.3% were total fabrications and 21.7% were committed by the communists themselves!
Actually Ozarichi was just one of hundreds of crimes sites throughout the Soviet Union documented by the Soviets, and like those other sites – as we know from corroborating German evidence on which the Soviets could have had no influence – it was indisputably a Nazi crime site. And it was not a very big one. According to the estimate of one historian who checked the available Soviet and German documentation about Ozarichi (Dr. Nick Terry, The German Army Group Centre and the Soviet Civilian Population, 1942-1944, page 256), at least 2,000 Belorussian civilians died during the seven days of the Ozarichi camps’ existence. Not much in comparison to the massacres at Kharkov, Zhitomir, Smolensk and in the Minsk area, mentioned in my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...ave-found.html – to mention but some out of many killing grounds that claimed far more victims than Ozarichi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Now, who in their right mind could accept as true anything that the communists claimed to have found at Sobibor and Treblinka?
Anyone aware of evidence to the mass killing at Sobibor and Treblinka on which the Soviets could have had no influence (like documents found by western criminal investigators and researchers and depositions of accused perpetrators and other eyewitnesses before West German courts), to the extent that it corroborates the Soviet claims – which is largely does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
(Not so much as 1/10th of 1% of said claims / holocausts has ever been forensically proven.)
Depends on what one accepts as forensic proof, and I don’t think Gerdes can show us that his requirements are based on any generally accepted rules or standards of criminal investigation.

And he also cannot explain why on earth it should only be possible to prove a crime by forensic means, why eyewitness testimonies and/or documents should not be proof as well even if the physical evidence can for some reason not be examined.

What is more, he cannot show us any Soviet crimes other than Katyn and Vinnitsa that were subject to forensic examination, so if he accepts only a forensic investigation such as conducted at Katyn and Vinnitsa as proof of a mass killing, he is denying all crimes of those filthy "Judeo-Bolshevik" Soviets bastards he hates so much, except for Katyn and Vinnitsa. Uncle Joe Stalin killed no more than about 14,000 people in Gerdes’ cloud-cuckoo-land, 4,143 at Katyn and 9,432 at Vinnitsa. That is, if Gerdes accepts evidence other than photographs, for otherwise he’ll be left with a couple of hundred photographed corpses at each of these killing sites.

What’s really sad for "Revisionism", however, is that this idiotic approach doesn’t seem to be limited to disposable chimps like Gerdes. The difference between such chimps and the big "Revisionist" gurus seems to be one of form rather than content, at least as concerns this issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Ok, now that you know what the goal / modus Operandi of the Soviets / Comjunists was for being at Treblinka (locating, documenting and propagandizing real and contrived mass graves / bodies), let’s now look at the first forensic investigation of Treblinka.

Soviet Investigations and Forensic Examinations

In the middle of August 1944, the 65th Soviet Army conquered the region around Treblinka. The Military Examining Judge of the Military Office of Prosecution First Lieutenant of Justice Jurowski went to work immediately, supported by other officers - Major Kononjuk, Major V.S. Apresjan, First Lieutenant F.A. Rodionov, Major M.E. Golovan, and Lieutenant N.V. Kadalo - and carried out investigations between August 15 and 23 on the grounds of the camps Treblinka I and Treblinka II. He furthermore questioned witnesses: Samuel Rajzman, Lucjan Puchała, Marianna Kobus, Stanisław Zdonek, Barbara Zemkiewicz, Józef Pukaszek, Stanisław Kon, Mieczysław Anyszkiewicz, Tadeusz Kann, Franciszek Wesolowski, Max Lewit, and Kazimierz Skarzyński.

* And what did they find after one week of searching the area? Nothing! Not so much as one single grave that contained so much as one:

1 - Complete human body.

2 - Complete human skeleton.

3 - Complete human skull

4 - Complete human bone.

5 - Human bone fragment.

6 - Human tooth.

7 - Ounce of human ash.

8 - Spent bullet.

9 - Shell casing.

NOTHING!

So, in desperation:

On August 22 and 23, the investigatory committee, accompanied by local Polish officials, went to Treblinka [actually - the Treblinka I cemetery - NOT the Treblinka II camp proper] in order to carry out investigations on the spot. Three mass graves and 13 individual graves were discovered by this. The exhumation of the bodies yielded the following picture:

1. Grave 10 m × 5 m × 2 m in dimension, with 105 bodies, which had been buried in layers of 5 to 7 each. Upon each layer of bodies, a layer of earth 45 to 50 cm thick had been piled.

2. Grave 10 m × 5 m × 1.9 m in dimension, with 97 bodies in layers of 5 to 6 bodies respectively, with interposing layers of earth 50 cm thick.

3. Grave 10 m × 5 m × 2.5 m in dimension, with 103 bodies in layers of 5 to 6 each, with 50 cm of earth lying between.

* That’s a total of 318 UNCREMATED bodies.

On August 24, 1944, a commission composed of the Soviet officers previously named as well as representatives of the local Polish authorities produced the first official report concerning the camps Treblinka I and II. With respect to Treblinka II it says there:

"The camp Treblinka II was an enormous death combine. From all nations of Europe occupied by the Germans, the entire Jewish population was brought here for burning, besides many 'unfit' people of other nationalities. The death factory, in which the SS-men ruthlessly and zealously exterminated millions of people, was in operation around the clock for 13 months, from July 1942 until September 1943…

Some persons, who escaped the pyre through a miracle, have portrayed the nightmarish images of the incineration of people:

…The 'bath' was a house, which consisted of 12 cabins, each 6 × 6 m in size. 400 to 500 people were driven at a time into one cabin. It had two doors, which could be sealed hermetically. In the corner, between ceiling and wall, were two openings connected with hoses. Behind the 'bath' stood a machine. It pumped the air out of the room. The people suffocated within 6 to 10 minutes. The second door was opened and the dead were brought on wheelbarrows to the special ovens…

The statements of the witnesses, the book 'One Year in Treblinka' [by Jankiel Wiernik], the presence of a large quantity of ashes and cinders, the presence of personal commodities and documents strewn on the grounds - * as well as excavated from the pits * - confirm that there were ovens in the camp where people were cremated. In the beginning, the Germans buried the bodies of the murdered. After Himmler had visited the camp, the bodies were dug up with an excavator and cremated.

At the present it is difficult to uncover the traces and secrets of this oven for the cremation of people, but based upon the available data, one can picture it.

The oven - this was a large trench 250-300 m in length, 20-25 m in width and 5-6 m deep, excavated by an excavator… That was a gigantic oven grill…

The Germans attempted to delete the traces of their atrocities… What remains are the walls of the burned residential building and of the cattle stall of the colonist Strebel, who was settled on the territory of the camp. Remaining as marks of the existence of the camp are: an abatis of barbed wire, ashes, cinders, and a great number of pits, where household objects of the cremated Jews have been buried."

The report ends with six "conclusions," of which the most important is the first:

"On the basis of the preliminary facts, the cremation of people has been determined with no doubt. The extent of the extermination of people was monstrous: about three million."
Another plagiarized rendering of Mattogno & Graf’s writings, with Gerdes conclusions not even matching his own quote (which shows that during the period in question the Soviets also investigated the Treblinka I labor camp and that they produced an official report about Treblinka I, thus making Gerdes’ look as silly as usual with his baseless claim that the Soviets turned "in desperation" to the Treblinka I "cemetery" because they found no human remains at Treblinka II "after one week of searching the area"). And what is more, Gerdes left out the one part of the Soviet report (or of what Mattogno & Graf quoted from it) that expressly mentions human remains in the area of Treblinka II (emphases added):

Quote:
A huge area of the camp was covered with cinders and ashes. The road, which connected the two camps and is three kilometers long, was covered with cinders and ashes to a height of 7 - 10 cm. One could recognize the presence of lime in large pieces of cinder with the naked eye. It is well known that lime is a product of burning bones. There were no production sites in the camp, but cinders and ashes were brought out of the camp every day by the ton. This freight was loaded onto railroad cars, and 20 to 30 peasant carts distributed them and poured them onto the road. (Witness testimony of Lucjan Puchała, Kazimierz Skarzinski. Stanisław Krym inter alia).
"Lime" is an inaccurate designation (maybe due to a mistranslation) of the white, powdery substance known as bone ash, which consists mostly of calcium phosphate, but the point is that the report expressly mentions "a product of burning bones" and that Gerdes left out this part of the Soviet report, which he’s obviously not comfortable with. The liar seems to be afraid that this part of the report would make his howling sound even hollower than it does anyway, for this is not the first time that he is omitting this part. See below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
So, let's recap what we've learned so far.
What we would have learned so far – if we didn’t know it already – is that Gerdes has manure instead of brain matter inside his skull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
1 - The Soviets / comjunists went to Treblinka with the purpose of finding and exploiting / propagandizing the finding of "huge mass graves."
A claim not borne out by Gerdes plagiarized renderings of Mattogno & Graf’s nonsense, actually. As I wrote in my post # 1836 under http://vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p=9...postcount=1836 :

Quote:
What makes Gerdes think the Soviets were out to find mass graves in the Treblinka extermination camp area? Actually it’s unlikely that they dug for mass graves because, if they had interrogated survivors before inspecting the site, they had been told that the SS had destroyed all the bodies by burning and backfilled the mass graves with ashes, bone fragments and soil. The Soviets may well have seen no point in digging for ashes and bone fragments rather than stinking dead bodies, also considering what could be seen above ground with the naked eye and is mentioned in the Soviet investigation report quoted on pages 78 f. of Mattogno & Graf’s Treblinka book. Gerdes left out the following part of that report in his above quote (emphasis added):

Quote:
A huge area of the camp was covered with cinders and ashes. The road, which connected the two camps and is three kilometers long, was covered with cinders and ashes to a height of 7 - 10 cm. One could recognize the presence of lime in large pieces of cinder with the naked eye. It is well known that lime is a product of burning bones. There were no production sites in the camp, but cinders and ashes were brought out of the camp every day by the ton. This freight was loaded onto railroad cars, and 20 to 30 peasant carts distributed them and poured them onto the road. (Witness testimony of Lucjan Puchała, Kazimierz Skarzinski. Stanisław Krym inter alia).
The statements of the witnesses, the book ‘One Year in Treblinka’ [by Jankiel Wiernik], the presence of a large quantity of ashes and cinders, the presence of personal commodities and documents strewn on the grounds as well as excavated from the pits confirm that there were ovens in the camp where people were cremated. In the beginning, the Germans buried the bodies of the murdered. After Himmler had visited the camp, the bodies were dug up with an excavator and cremated.
Poor compulsive liar Gerdes, he indulges in quote-mining even when quoting his gurus.

Both the above quote and Gerdes' quote, incidentally, shows that the Soviets were obviously interested in finding personal objects and documents from the victims, presumably after having reckoned that it would not be possible to find mass graves full of stinking dead bodies because, like in some of the Nazi killing sites on Soviet soil, the bodies had been cremated. The first part of Gerdes’ Mattogno quote also shows that the Soviet commission investigated both the Treblinka II extermination camp and the Treblinka I labor camp. The Treblinka I labor camp, where there were mass graves containing unburned bodies, probably took up most of the commission’s time on site.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
2 - The Soviets / comjunists spent a week looking for graves / bodies and found nothing what-so-ever to support the alleged claims of mass murder or any "huge mass graves."
Shall we call this a lie already, or is this still just Gerdes’ low intelligence? As I pointed out, the Soviets had no reason to go looking for graves/bodies in the Treblinka II area, because what they had learned from eyewitnesses told them that they would find no pits full of stinking dead bodies because the bodies has been cremated, and they may have decided that there was no point in digging for cremation remains, which they could see plenty of above ground anyway. So what search for graves/bodies took place during the week in question was probably done at the Treblinka I labor camp, where the bodies of forced laborers who had died or been killed by the Germans had been buried but not burned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
* The Soviets / comjunists didn't see an elephant in their basement. If there were an elephant in their basement, they most certainly would have seen it. Therefore, there was no elephant in the Soviets / comjunists basement.
Actually the Soviets just didn’t care to look underground for what they reasonably supposed they would find there and could see above ground already – human cremation remains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
3 - After a week of looking and not finding a single grave / body, they consulted the locals who showed them the local cemetery south of Treblinka I where the Soviets / comjunists dug up 318 UNCREMATED bodies.
Utter crap. The digging in the area of the Treblinka I labor camp was done during the very week during which Gerdes would have the Soviets looking in vain for mass graves in the Treblinka II area, and there was no "local cemetery" there (unless, of course, Gerdes means the burial area of the Treblinka I labor camp).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
4 - However, after finding the 318 UNCREMATED bodies at the local / Treblinka I cemetery, the Soviets / comjunists claimed in their report that they found no bodies what-so-ever.
Actually the Soviets made a report about Treblinka I, in which they mentioned the bodies found there (How else would we know about these bodies, Mr. Knucklehead? Duh!) and reported no bodies found in the area of Treblinka II (where in fact there were none because the bodies had been cremated and the cremation remains mostly buried under ground, from where the Soviets saw no point in digging them up).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The above facts begs at least these questions:

1 - What did the Soviets / comjunists do with the bodies that they dug up from the cemetery? (This will be revealed later.)
They probably gave the bodies found at Treblinka I a decent burial in a military or civilian cemetery, but let’s see what cloud-cuckoo-land fantasies Gerdes will give us to laugh about (he’ll probably claim that the Soviets dismembered those bodies and dispersed the bones over Treblinka II or something like that).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
2 - Why did the Soviets / comjunists not admit to finding said graves / bodies? (Especially when that is what they went to Treblinka to do?)
Actually, as I said before, the Soviets made a report about Treblinka I, in which they mentioned the bodies found there (How else would we know about these bodies, Mr. Knucklehead? Duh!) and reported no bodies found in the area of Treblinka II (where in fact there were none because the bodies had been cremated and the cremation remains mostly buried under ground, from where the Soviets saw no point in digging them up).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
3 - Why didn't they photograph the bodies like they did at Osarichi? i.e. - why didn't they propagandize the find?
Probably because a couple of hundred bodies found at Treblinka I were not a big deal, especially for the Soviets who had discovered a great many killing sites containing thousands of bodies each (Ozarichi was small stuff by comparison, as I pointed out before). Why call photographers to shoot some out of a few hundred bodies found in the area of a labor camp? Those photographers were probably busy at Majdanek at the same time, where finds were way more interesting and damning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The answers of course, are that the Soviets admitted in the above mentioned reports, both explicitly and implicitly that - THEY FOUND NO HUMAN REMAINS AND NO MASS GRAVES AT THE TREBLINKA II CAMP. (And by propagandizing the find, they would have undermined their "magically disapearing jew theory.")
Actually the only ones who harbor and ever harbored a "magically disapearing jew theory" are cretins like Gerdes, who seem to believe that about 2.5 million people who disappeared behind the gates of Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek were abducted by flying saucers or something like that. The Soviets would have loved to find mass graves full of stinking dead bodies, like they had at Krasnodar and Kharkov, in various places in the Minsk area and Belorussia, in the Smolensk area and at Majdanek, to name but a few examples. And they would have liked those bodies to be not of Jews but of other "peaceful Soviet citizens" or "citizens of various European nations", for the last thing Stalin wanted (which is why Soviet reports rarely if ever mention that the victims were Jews when describing a Nazi killing site where the Nazis mainly or exclusively bumped off Jews) was to make Jews look like the central victims of Nazi persecution. But what would an ignorant bugger like Gerdes know about Stalin’s policies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
So again, the Soviets not only didn't find, but admitted the fact that they didn't find so much as one single grave that contained so much as one:

1 - Complete human body.

2 - Complete human skeleton.

3 - Complete human skull

4 - Complete human bone.

5 - Human bone fragment.

6 - Human tooth.

7 - Ounce of human ash.

8 - Spent bullet.

9 - Shell casing.

NOTHING!
The Soviets didn’t find at Treblinka II what they didn’t go looking for, as simple as that. If they had done excavations like the Poles later did (excavations that were facilitated by the fact that robbery diggers had turned the area into a moonscape and explosives used by robbery diggers had blown craters in the mass graves area, in the deepest of which the Polish investigators only had to continue digging in order to establish the depth of the former mass graves) they would have found what the Poles found – no whole skeletons but skulls and bones, some still with tissue stuck to them, and mainly ashes and bone fragments like were lying above ground, and probably also more teeth such as described by Vassili Grossman and by the Polish militia, who found teeth on robbery diggers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
TBC
Yeah, let’s have some more fun with good old Gerdes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Now, after being so rudely interupted, let's get back to the subject.
The "rude" (poor crybaby) interruption by my old friend denierbud aka Carto’s Curlass Supreme I’ll discuss later. Fun and games with Gerdes first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
So, you now know that the Soviets went to Treblinka to locate the alleged "huge mass graves" and found not so much as an ounce of human remains.
Wow, two lies in one sentence. Gerdes is in shape today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Not enough evidence to prove so much as the murder of one individual, much less 3 million.
The Soviet estimate of 3 million was dead wrong and is not upheld by anybody today, but it’s not as if one had to find even a single dead body to prove, according to reasonable standards, that at least about 750,000 people were murdered at Treblinka. For this is what all available documentary and eyewitness evidence (including but not limited to the exhibits listed in my posts # 172 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=172, # 194 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=194 and # 777 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=777) points to, and neither the physical evidence found on the Treblinka site (mentioned in the same posts, especially # 172) nor any evidence suggesting an alternative scenario contradicts the mass murder evidence. It’s a matter of simple logic and common sense: if about 750,000 people are known to have entered but never left a place that all eyewitnesses describe as a place of mass murder (and some contemporary documents also show to have been just that), this means that they have been murdered at that place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
But is there more proof than the Soviets own admission that they found not so much as one single grave that contained so much as one:

1 - Complete human body.

2 - Complete human skeleton.

3 - Complete human skull

4 - Complete human bone.

5 - Human bone fragment.

6 - Human tooth.

7 - Ounce of human ash.

8 - Spent bullet.

9 - Shell casing?

YES!
Apart from the fact that the Soviet obviously did find human cremation remains (lying above ground as described in the Soviet report), I’d say this is much ado about nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
On the 15th of September, a Polish-Soviet commission, consisting of Magister P. Sobolevski, the Secretary of the Polish-Soviet Commission for the Revelation of German Crimes, M. Chodzko, the representative of the information and propaganda department of a Polish institute, as well as G.E. Levakov, the representative of the War Soviet of the 2nd Byelorussian Front, composed a "protocol of a provisional preliminary investigation and reconnaissance in the former concentration camp Tremblinka," in which the recent investigations of Soviet military justice were summarized, and from which we cite some excerpts (And I will summarize Carlo Mattogno and Juergen Graf's summarizations):

"The concentration camp Tremblinka consisted of two sections, which were at a distance of one-and-a-half kilometers from each other. The first section was named 'Death Camp No. 2.' This camp itself, on whose grounds two burned-down farm buildings can now be found, broke down into two parts, and a railroad track led to this Camp No. 2. For this reason the people taken here believed initially that they were at a transit point on their journey to the east.

In the first section of Death Camp No. 2... Approximately 400 Jews worked at this chamber, who dragged out the corpses of the asphyxiated and threw them into enormous trenches, which were located in the area of Death Camp No. 2 and which had been prepared beforehand and excavated by an excavator.

In the winter of 1943, the German murderers proceeded to exhume and burn the corpses. For this purpose they also used an excavator. The personal documents found here, [Please note that that is ALL that was found] torn into pieces and thrown away, prove that citizens of Poland, of the Soviet Union, of Czechoslovakia and other nations, members of the intelligentsia as well as simple workers, were killed here. [Scattered trash about the area "proved" the murder of 3 million jews?]
No, it proved that the deportees murdered had come from Poland, the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia and other nations, and that they had been members of the intelligentsia as well as simple workers. The chimp obviously cannot read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The second section of the concentration camp was named 'Camp No. 1' and was located one-and-a-half kilometers away from the Death Camp. [Please notice that they make the distinction between camps I and II and they explicitly admit that no graves / bodies were found in camp II]
Big deal, as they obviously didn’t go looking for mass graves, probably because they expected to find nothing but human cremation remains there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The objects found bear witness to the fact that here men, women, and children of every age were interned in entire families. The things found, like, for example, violin parts, children's toys, devices for waving the hair [hair curlers], books and the like, show that many came to this place who did not suspect the destination of their journey. Pieces of burned and destroyed passports confirm that citizens from Poland, the USSR, Czechoslovakia, and other nations occupied by the Germans were interned here."

So you can clearly see that the Poles themselves confirm the Soviets admission that at camp II, not an iota of human remains were found.
Actually the Soviets found human cremation remains covering the ground in what reads like considerable quantities, and stinking liar Gerdes conveniently omitted the respective part of the Soviet report. Even more so than their predecessors, these Poles seem to have been more interested in the victim’s leftover belongings and what they said about the victims’ origin than in human ashes, which they didn’t care to mention (assuming that Mattogno & Graf did not leave out the corresponding parts of this Polish report, that is).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
The only thing found was trash and the ashes of burnt trash.
The Poles must also have found the human remains described by the Soviets in their report, even if they didn’t mention them. And the "trash" is not uninteresting to who has brains instead of manure inside his skull. For apart from showing where the victims had come from, it show that deportees to Treblinka II were deprived not only of their belongings but also of their personal documents. "Resettlement" in the "Russian East" without identity papers? Only in "Revisionist" cloud-cuckoo-land.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And these were the same Poles that helped the Soviets find the 318 bodies in the Treblinka I cemetery.
Don’t know, and what’s that supposed to matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Remember, they were looking for "3 enormous trenches" - 250-300 m in length, 20-25 m in width and 5-6 m deep - and they found not so much as a single grave.
Actually the objects with these measurements described in the Soviet report were not graves but the incineration ovens. Mattogno & Graf, page 79:

Quote:
At the present it is difficult to uncover the traces and secrets of this oven for the cremation of people, but based upon the available data, one can picture it.
The oven – this was a large trench 250-300 m in length, 20-25 m in width and 5-6 m deep, excavated by an excavator. Driven into the bottom of the ditch were three rows of reinforced concrete posts, one-and-a-half m in height each. The posts were connected to one another by cross-beams. On these cross-beams rails were placed at intervals of 5 to 7 cm. That was a gigantic oven grill. A narrow-gage spur track led down to the edge of the trench. (Witness testimony of Abe Kon, Hejnoch Brenner, Samuel Rajzman, and the content of the book ‘One Year in Treblinka’). […]
Those must have been the measurements of all cremation grids together and not of a single one, so either the witnesses were confused due to trauma or (more probably) the Soviets didn’t understand them correctly. In any case, we have seen once more that poor dumb Gerdes cannot even read – or then he’s dishonest enough to misrepresent his own "Revisionist" gurus’ sources.

Mattogno & Graf left out something after the above quote, by the way. What could that be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
They were looking for the tens of thousands of bullets and shell casings and they were looking for the remains of 3 million jews (millions and millions of pounds of bone fragments), and they found not so much as one single:

1 - Complete human body.

2 - Complete human skeleton.

3 - Complete human skull

4 - Complete human bone.

5 - Human bone fragment.

6 - Human tooth.

7 - Ounce of human ash.

8 - Spent bullet.

9 - Shell casing?

NOT ONE! (In a very small, precisely known location.)
Again, how does Gerdes know that the Soviets and their first Polish successors were looking for what he claims (falsely at least as concerns his items 5 and 7) they didn’t find? He must have been told by a little bird swimming in the manure that fills his skull, for there’s nothing in what he quoted of Mattogno & Graf’s sources to support his conclusion. On the contrary, these sources are compatible with the assumption that the Soviets and their first Polish successors saw no point in digging for what they expected they would find and saw above ground anyway – human cremation remains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And we all know what that means:

NO GRAVES = NO TREBLINKA HOLOCAUST
No, all this means is that the Soviet and their Polish successors didn’t try to identify the graves because they saw no point in it after what witnesses had told him about the Germans’ destruction of the physical evidence. If they had expected to find pits full of stinking dead bodies instead of pits full of ashes and bone fragments filled with soil, they probably would have gone digging – as they did at Treblinka I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Continuing on, we need to ask and answer the question: Was there any other forensic examinations of the Treblinka II site that confirm or refute the Soviets and Poles admission that they found not a single grave or iota of human remains at Treblinka II?

Answer - Yes.
Care to know what "nor a single grave or iota of human remains at Treblinka II" looks like in Gerdian cloud-cuckoo-land? Then read my post # 1825 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...postcount=1825 and have a look at the pictures there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And that of course brings us to Łukaszkiewicz and "the pit," or, more correctly, and how it will be refered to from now on - the "bomb crater."
How about a bomb crater blown into a former mass grave pit later filled with soil and partial human remains? That’s the most accurate description.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And it brings up the next question: Did Łukaszkiewicz's investigation confirm or refute?
Depends on whether you ask people who objectively follow the evidence where it leads (and will thus say "confirm") or ideologically motivated charlatans indulging in amusing mental gymnastics in order to rationalize away an element of evidence that seems to be depriving them of sleep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And the next question: Where is the location of said "bomb crater?" (Actually there were two, which will all be explained soon.)
There’s even a contemporary map showing the part of the Treblinka II area where the crater must have been located. Let’s see if Gerdes has found that map.
 
Old January 22nd, 2009 #1843
Roberto Muehlenkamp
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,001
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Now let’s look at reactions to Gerdes’ verbal diarrhea (which doesn’t seem to have fascinated Gerdes’ fellow true believers, at least according to what I saw this morning – maybe he’s been luckier since then)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carto's Cutlass Supreme, in his post of Jan 21, 2009 6:56 pm
Hi Greg,

I have 3 issues with your post:

1) You're plagiarizing Carlo Mattogno and Juergen Graf's book, Treblinka. In three posts you haven't mentioned their names or their book. Yet you've copied large passages, changing words here and there.

2) You started by claiming you've found Lukasciewicz's pit, and now with three long posts there doesn't seem to be anything supporting that claim.

3) You make a pun on a last name, which I don't think has a place on an adult scholarly forum: Muehlenkamp to Mulecamp.

Quote:

"Treblinka" by Carlo Mattogno and Juergen Graf, page 217. Free download at VHO:

"At three different discovery sites, a total of 97 mass graves, they found the mortal remains of 9,432 Ukrainians who had been murdered by the Soviets."

Quote:
Greg Gerdes:

"At three different locations, the Germans found a total of 97 mass graves that contained the remains of 9,432 Ukrainians - who had been brutally murdered by the Soviets."

Quote:
Mattogno and Graf pg. 218:

"In order to make the crimes of Katyn and Vinnitsa forgotten or at least to
suppress them, the Soviets carried out a thorough investigation of all actual or
invented crimes, which the Germans had committed in the territory reconquered by the Red Army."

Quote:
Greg Gerdes:

"In order to lessen the impact of their war crimes at places like Katyn and Vinnitsa, the Soviets investigated all actual or invented crimes of the Germans in the territory reconquered by the Red Army."
Compared to Gerdes, this fellow (who seems to be identical with my friend “denierbud” of “One Third of the Holocaust” fame – see the debunking of that video trash under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...nks.html#debuv ) can even be called intelligent. I hope he’s not a coward like both Gerdes and Jonni “Hannover” Hargis and will therefore a) accept my invitation to debate on this VNN thread (see post # 1833 under http://vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p=9...postcount=1833 ) and b) also answer questions he is asked when showing up here, instead of hiding behind his own repetitive and irrelevant questions the way Gerdes does. If so, there still a chance that this thread will not die of boredom.

Here’s Gerdes instructive reply to CCS, in his post of Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:35 pm:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
"Hi Greg, I have 3 issues with your post:

1) You're plagiarizing Carlo Mattogno and Juergen Graf's book, Treblinka. In three posts you haven't mentioned their names or their book. Yet you've copied large passages, changing words here and there.

2) You started by claiming you've found Lukasciewicz's pit, and now with three long posts there doesn't seem to be anything supporting that claim.

3) You make a pun on a last name, which I don't think has a place on an adult scholarly forum: Muehlenkamp to Mulecamp."

#1 - Guilty as charged. I'm not just plagiarizing them, I'm doing it blatently and shamelessly so. And, I will continue to do so for the remainder of this post.

#2 - Read the original post for this thread. See especially: "I want to “show my work,” as well as take this opportunity to teach the truth about the Treblinka holohoax. So I’m going to start at the beginning and go slow, giving everyone an opportunity to check my work, so everyone can see clearly what the facts are and that I’m not being deceitful or sophistic in any way. I want people to not just know, but UNDERSTAND how we know and how I came to the conclusions that I have."

By "my work," I should have said - my analysis of the issue as per Graf / Mattogno. Ss sue me.

#3 - Whaaaaaaaaaa.
The poor fellow seems to have progressed from infancy to senility without ever having gone through a state of maturity.
 
Old January 22nd, 2009 #1844
Greg Gerdes
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Yawn, did roberto write anything recently? Let's see - my, that looks like he put a lot of time and effort into something. But guess what? I just browsed it and there is not one single bit of proof for the existence of so much as one single "huge mass grave" at Treblinka or Sobibor that contains just one:

1 - Complete human body in a "wax fat transformation."

2 - Complete human skeleton.

3 - Complete human skull

4 - Complete human bone.

5 - Human bone fragment.

6 - Human tooth.

7 - Ounce of human ash.

8 - Spent bullet.

9 - Shell casing.


NOT ONE!


retardo:

"actually my position is that the whole mass murder can be and has been proven without establishing the precise location and size of each of the mass graves in the Treblinka "death camp" sector, which has not been done yet at Treblinka like it has been done at Sobibor."

Really dullone? First off, you claim only 60% of the alleged Sobibor holocaust has been proven, not "the whole mass murder."

Second, If "the whole mass murder has been proven" at Sobibor, then why can't you show us the location of the 3 "huge mass graves" that were allegedly found "sometime in the sixties?"

Let's see a map that shows the location of all alleged "huge mass graves" found.


Let's see you answer the question - how many graves in total have allegedly been located at Sobibor?


retardo:

"actually my position is that the whole mass murder [at Treblinka] can be and has been proven without establishing the precise location and size of each of the mass graves in the Treblinka "death camp" sector."

Translation:

Not so much as one single "huge mass grave" at Treblinka that contains just one:

1 - Complete human body in a "wax fat transformation."

2 - Complete human skeleton.

3 - Complete human skull

4 - Complete human bone.

5 - Human bone fragment.

6 - Human tooth.

7 - Ounce of human ash.

8 - Spent bullet.

9 - Shell casing.

has ever been found.

NOT ONE!


And "each mass grave?" How many are we talking about? And what is there general location. Show us on a map the location of the remains of the 870,000 jews alleged to have been murdered, buried, dug up, burned (NOT cremated), crushed (into bone fragments - NOT "ashes") and reburied INTO THE SAME "HUGE MASS GRAVES."

Just do the best you can dullone. Narrow it down to the best of your limited ability.

Last edited by Greg Gerdes; January 22nd, 2009 at 08:22 PM.
 
Old January 22nd, 2009 #1845
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Well well well, I just did another quik browse before moving on, and I found this at the bottom of roberta's last post:

"There’s even a contemporary map showing the part of the Treblinka II area where the crater must have been located. Let’s see if Gerdes has found that map."

So did you catch that? The retarded rabbi has had information about the alleged location of this mystery crater, but she hasn't shared it. Why not dullone?

What are you afraid of?

Now, let's see the maps of Sobibor and Treblinka that show the exact locations of all alleged "huge mass graves" allegedly found, and / or the most general area that you believe them to be. If you can't provide a map that has the alleged "huge mass graves" clearly marked, then simply describe them to the best of your limited ability.

And by the way dullone, I want to thank you for showing the world just how right I am about the impossibility of making jew magically disapear. You really shot yourself in the foot on that last post. (BTW, have I ever told you that you're priceless?)

I especially liked this:

"The remains of corpses incinerated in the Majdanek camp's crematorium."

And:

"Depends on what one accepts as forensic proof... And he also cannot explain why on earth it should only be possible to prove a crime by forensic means."

LOL!!

PRICELESS!!!

Last edited by Greg Gerdes; January 22nd, 2009 at 08:35 PM.
 
Old January 22nd, 2009 #1846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
2 - Why did the Soviets / comjunists not admit to finding said graves / bodies? (Especially when that is what they went to Treblinka to do?)

retardo:

"Actually, as I said before, the Soviets made a report about Treblinka I, in which they mentioned the bodies found there (How else would we know about these bodies, Mr. Knucklehead? Duh!) and reported no bodies found in the area of Treblinka II - where in fact there were none - because the bodies had been cremated and the cremation remains mostly buried under ground, from where the Soviets saw no point in digging them up)."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

The comjunists admitted to doing excavations dumb ass!

Priceless!!!!!!!!!!
 
Old January 22nd, 2009 #1847
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retardo:

Actually the Soviets just didn’t care to look underground for what they reasonably supposed they would find there and could see above ground already – human cremation remains.


She is simply mentally ill, isn't she folks? There is no other explanation for her.


On August 24, 1944, a commission composed of the Soviet officers previously named as well as representatives of the local Polish authorities produced the first official report concerning the camps Treblinka I and II. With respect to Treblinka II it says there:

"At the present it is difficult to uncover the traces and secrets of this oven for the cremation of people, but based upon the available data, one can picture it."

PRICELESS!!!!!
 
Old January 22nd, 2009 #1848
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Whatch how easy it is to prove that the retarded rabbi is both mentally retarded and mentally ill with one simple post:

retardo:

"As I pointed out, the Soviets had no reason to go looking for graves/bodies in the Treblinka II area... there was no point in digging for cremation remains"

LOL - what do you call this dullone?

On August 24, 1944, a commission composed of the Soviet officers previously named as well as representatives of the local Polish authorities produced the first official report concerning the camps Treblinka I and II. With respect to Treblinka II it says there:

The statements of the witnesses, the book 'One Year in Treblinka' [by Jankiel Wiernik], the presence of a large quantity of ashes and cinders, the presence of personal commodities and documents strewn on the grounds - * as well as excavated from the pits * - confirm that there were ovens in the camp where people were cremated. In the beginning, the Germans buried the bodies of the murdered. After Himmler had visited the camp, the bodies were dug up with an excavator and cremated.

At the present it is difficult to uncover the traces and secrets of this oven for the cremation of people, but based upon the available data, one can picture it.


And get this one:

"The Poles must also have found the human remains described by the Soviets in their report, even if they didn’t mention them."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Priceless!!!!
 
Old January 22nd, 2009 #1849
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roberta:

"Actually, as I said before, the Soviets made a report... and reported no bodies found in the area of Treblinka II - where in fact there were none"

Yes dullone, that is exactly what I've been saying for months now. Haven't you been paying attention?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!
 
Old January 23rd, 2009 #1850
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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What did Gerdes do in response to my posts # 1842 under http://vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p=9...postcount=1842 and # 1843 under http://vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p=9...postcount=1843 ?

Well, just what I had expected the compulsive liar, whimpering coward and hysterical fishwife to do – he freaked out again and wrote some more (mostly repeated) nonsense, thereby again showing that he cannot read and has a compulsive tendency to misrepresent his opponent’s arguments (by quoting them out of context or otherwise) and tell other lies, but no arguments and no brains.

What he didn’t do was the one thing he knows he should have done if he wanted me to respond to his latest crap, which is to post a statement reading as follows:

"I am prepared to, from now on, also answer questions and respond to challenges myself, and to address my opponent’s arguments and the evidence presented by my opponent (all of it)."

And that’s also not about to happen, of course, because Fatso Gerdes:



it too much a



to post this simple statement.

So the ignore situation remains as concerns discussion on this forum.

On the CODOH thread http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=5304 , it was not only Carto’s Cutlass Supreme who became upset with Gerdes, but also the big fat Moderator (obviously none other than Jonni "Hannover" Hargis) himself.

Moderator seems to be particularly pissed about Gerdes’ plagiarizing Mattogno & Graf’s Treblinka book, as his post of Jan 21, 2009 9:40 pm suggests:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moderator
Greg Gerdes:

Carto's Cutlass Supreme makes valid points. Please clean up your language or you will not be permitted to post here. I've mentioned this to you on a number of occasions, I will not ask you again. Don't let your language cloud your information. You will also and cite your references. That's it.

Moderator1
Yet what I liked best is the Moderator’s "Don’t let your language cloud your information". Has Gerdes ever provided anything that could be called information?

On Gerdes’ other CODOH thread, the one under http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=5290 , newcomer Thesaint has shown himself to be a pious true believer who faithfully tows the "Revisionist" party line, and his tirade (especially the "Judgment day" part) furthermore suggests a fanatical follower of another religion as well:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thesaint
Greg Gerdes wrote:
Thesaint:

"Hello Greg, Where is this boasting of your being "thrashed" by the dull one taking place?"

Vanguard News Network Forum >

Heritage subforum >

Archaeology, Anthropology & Animals subforum >

Archeological Investigations of Treblinka thread

http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=73168&page=92

I`ve just had a look.What a piece of work these Hoaxers are!
I particularly enjoyed his photographic "proof" of the Sobibor "mass graves" lol!
That "ash mountain" lol!
As for the photo that he says is you Greg,well,that`s beyond ridiculous is it not?
I see that he links to this thread, so for the benefit of Mr Muehlenkamp: I`ve seen the hoax industry`s "proof",and I`ve seen the revisionist`s PROOF. Any objective researcher after comparing the two would easily conclude that the "holocaust" is a total fraud from beginning to end.
All the thought crime laws won`t make the slightest bit of difference.
Judgement day is coming.There`s nothing you can do to stop it!
What is more, if Thesaint claims that photos of the Sobibor "ash mountain" monument were presented as photographic proof of the mass graves at that place, he’s either a liar or a very sloppy reader.

First of all, no exhibit is stated by me to be the proof of anything, simply because I think there is no such thing as the one smoking gun that proves everything. Conclusions about historical facts are derived from the convergence of various independent elements of evidence, which may well be inconclusive if viewed in isolation but nevertheless lead to a certain inescapable conclusion when seen together.

Second, I don’t think the "ash mountain" monument, if containing human ashes as it is reported to contain (and I see no reason to doubt), tells us anything other than that there were human ashes lying around on the soil of Sobibor when the monument was made. It doesn’t tell us whose ashes were lying there or where they had come from – for that we need other evidence, like eyewitness testimonies and documents showing what human beings were burned to ashes at Sobibor at what time and under what circumstances.

Third, as an exhibit of physical evidence, and as evidence to the presence of mass graves containing large amounts of human remains in the area, the "ash mountain" monument is far less telling than other exhibits I have shown or referred to in my posts on VNN and in my blog series about the Sobibor mass graves starting under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...t-sobibor.html , namely the following:

1. Postwar photos of the Sobibor site suggesting robbery digs:







2. Photos of core drill samples from Prof. Kola’s archaeological investigation in 2001, shown under http://www.sobibor.edu.pl/angielska/...nia/index.html :







3. My own photos of the mass graves area and of human remains (bone fragments) that I found there (without having to look much, I may add), which are shown in my blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...th-update.html and in my RODOH thread under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/636...o-Sobibor.html .

4. Prof. Andrzej Kola’s description of the mass graves found in 2001, an English translation of which is included in my aforementioned blog:

Quote:
Grave no 1 is located in the north - eastern part of hectare 17, just west from the memorial to victims. The site was excavated by 27 drills. Horizontally, it measures 20 x 20 m and is up to 4.30 m deep. It was a body burning grave.

Grave no 2 is located in the western part of the hectare 17, south from the memorial. It was excavated by 28 drills. Horizontally its shape is irregular, measuring at least 20 x 25 m – with its longer side in NS position – and with depth up to 4 metres. It was a body burning grave.

Grave no 3 is located in the south- western part of hectare 11 and north - western part of hectare 17. It was excavated by 17 drills. Horizontally, it's irregular, measuring around 20 x 12 m - with its longer side in NS position. The biggest part of the grave is located under north - western part of the memorial. It’s up to 5.80 m deep. In bottom layers, the grave is bony, with human remains in wax- fat transformation. The upper layers are a mixture of burnt body remains with layers of lime stone, sand and charcoal. The northern part of the grave is located near to northern part of the grave no 4. The more precise location of the graves requires additional research.

Grave no 4. It’s a grave with significant size, located in southern part of hectare 11, as well as northern and central parts of hectare 18. It was excavated by 78 drills. Horizontally, in NS position, it measures 70 x 20-25 m with the depth of around 5m. In bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax- fat transformation. The upper layers are a mixture of burnt body remains with layers of lime stone, sand and charcoal.

[...]

Grave no 5. It’s not a very vast grave, located in the north-western part of hectare 18. It was excavated by 7 drills. Horizontally, it's irregular, measuring at least 10 – 12 m, with its depth up to 4.90 m. In its bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax-fat transformation. In the upper layers – burnt body remains.

Grave no 6. It’s located in the central part of hectare 18, south from grave no 5. It was excavated by 22 drills. Horizontally, it’s irregular, measuring at least 15 x 25 m, with its depth up to 3.05 m. In its bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax-fat transformation. The upper layers - burnt body remains.

Grave no 7. Location of body burning activity, measuring at least 10 x 3 m, with its depth up to 0.90 m, in the central part of hectare 18, around 10-12 m south from the southern side of grave 4. The vast majority of burnt body remains were found in 6 drills. Around, vast ground transformation of an uncertain genesis. Only because of the burnt body remains found, the structure was thought of as a grave. In order to state the function of the place more accurately, further archaeological research needs to be conducted.
5. Prof. Kola’s map with the plotting of the mass graves he found, shown in the same blog article (the numbers of the graves added by me and corresponding to the description quoted above):



6. Air and satellite photographs (the former from the Sobibor Archaeology Project, see their site under http://undersobibor.org/ , the latter courtesy of Mr. Gerdes) on which four of the mass graves plotted on Prof. Kola’s map (the ones numbered 2, 6, 3 and 4) can be made out with the naked eye:







7. Last but not least, the documentary and eyewitness evidence showing that Sobibor was an extermination camp and that at least about 150,000 people (the number established by a West German court in 1966 based on evidence assessed by a court expert; there is also an early Polish estimate of about 250,000 dead, which is reasonable but not supported by evidence as the lower figure is), of whom just about 40 survivors have become known in the 6 ½ decades since Sobibor was dismantled, were deported to Sobibor (without there being any evidence that any of the deportees were taken from Sobibor to the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories, as "Revisionists" would have it, even though there should be plenty of evidence if the deportees had been taken from Sobibor to the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories and put into ghettos or labor camps in those areas). Some of this evidence is mentioned in my post # 777 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=777 , item IV.1.

If Thesaint thinks that an objective researcher would not accept the above as conclusive evidence that at least about 150,000 people were murdered at Sobibor (even though this was the conclusion of, among others, the very objective judges of the German Federal Republic at several murder trials held in the 1950s and 1960s, based on documentary and eyewitness evidence alone), I’d like him to explain why, i.e. based on what reasonable rules and standards of evidence and what logic, he thinks that an objective researcher would not accept this evidence as conclusive.

If he thinks that this evidence is proof of what he calls a "total fraud", I’d like him to explain how he arrived at this conclusion based on the mentioned evidence. He must be hallucinating.

And if he claims he has seen and been convinced by "PROOF" from the "Revisionist" side, I’d like him to show me that "PROOF". I’d expect something like conclusive evidence to massive evidence manipulation behind the exhibits I mentioned above and/or conclusive evidence to a scenario other than mass murder.

I therefore invite Thesaint to have a chat with me on (at his choice) this VNN thread or the RODOH discussion forum under http://rodohforum.yuku.com/ .

Let’s see if there’s anything like arguments behind your big mouth, my friend.

And if you’re not a whimpering coward like Gerdes (who hides behind irrelevant and idiotic questions he repeats over and over again and ignores any pertinent question he is asked) or like Jonni "Hannover" Hargis (who never dares to stick his nose outside his warm and cozy CODOH Führerbunker, where he meets inconvenient opposition with censorship even though the place is supposed to offer open debate).

I’m waiting for you, pal.
 
Old January 23rd, 2009 #1851
Greg Gerdes
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Retardo:

"If Thesaint thinks that an objective researcher would not accept the above as conclusive evidence that at least about 150,000 people were murdered at Sobibor, I’d like him to explain why, i.e. based on what reasonable rules and standards of evidence and what logic, he thinks that an objective researcher would not accept this evidence as conclusive."

The reason of course, is that:

Not so much as one single "huge mass grave" at Sobibor that contains so much as just one:

1 - Complete human body in a "wax fat transformation."

2 - Complete human skeleton.

3 - Complete human skull

4 - Complete human bone.

5 - Human bone fragment.

6 - Human tooth.

7 - Ounce of human ash.

8 - Spent bullet.

9 - Shell casing.

has ever been found.

NOT ONE!

Of course, if retardo believes otherwise, she is free to show us just one of the alleged huge mass graves" that she beileves is the most convincing of all the alleged "huge mass graves."

And if She claims She has convincing by "PROOF," I’d like her show me that "PROOF". I’d expect something like conclusive evidence to massive evidence evidence of that mass murder. However, I would accept for now, just one single "huge mass grave" at Sobibor that contains so much as just one:

1 - Complete human body in a "wax fat transformation."

2 - Complete human skeleton.

3 - Complete human skull

4 - Complete human bone.

5 - Human bone fragment.

6 - Human tooth.

7 - Ounce of human ash.

8 - Spent bullet.

9 - Shell casing.


Let’s see if there’s anything like real proof behind your big mouth, my friend.

Now retardo, HOW MANY MASS GRAVES DO YOU CLAIM HAVE BEEN LOCATED / PROVEN TO EXIST AT SOBIBOR AND TREBLINKA?

Last edited by Greg Gerdes; January 23rd, 2009 at 01:34 PM.
 
Old January 23rd, 2009 #1852
Greg Gerdes
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Please notice how the dullone refused to respond to my bitchslapping her with the following:

retardo:

"actually my position is that the whole mass murder can be and has been proven without establishing the precise location and size of each of the mass graves in the Treblinka "death camp" sector."

Let's see a map that shows the location of all alleged "huge mass graves" found.


Let's see you answer the question - how many graves in total have allegedly been located / proven to exist at Treblinka?


Let's see you locate / prove the existence of just one single "huge mass grave" at Treblinka that contains just one:

1 - Complete human body in a "wax fat transformation."

2 - Complete human skeleton.

3 - Complete human skull

4 - Complete human bone.

5 - Human bone fragment.

6 - Human tooth.

7 - Ounce of human ash.

8 - Spent bullet.

9 - Shell casing.


JUST ONE!

Can you do it retardo?


And "each mass grave?" How many are we talking about? And what is there general location. Show us on a map the location of the remains of the 870,000 jews alleged to have been murdered, buried, dug up, burned (NOT cremated), crushed (into bone fragments - NOT "ashes") and reburied INTO THE SAME "HUGE MASS GRAVES."

Just do the best you can dullone. Narrow it down to the best of your limited ability.

Last edited by Greg Gerdes; January 23rd, 2009 at 01:34 PM.
 
Old January 23rd, 2009 #1853
Greg Gerdes
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Please notice how the dullone refused to respond to my bitchslapping her with the following:

Well well well, I just did another quik browse before moving on, and I found this at the bottom of roberta's last post:

"There’s even a contemporary map showing the part of the Treblinka II area where the crater must have been located. Let’s see if Gerdes has found that map."

So did you catch that? The retarded rabbi has had information about the alleged location of this mystery crater, but she hasn't shared it. Why not dullone?

What are you afraid of?

Now, let's see the maps of Sobibor and Treblinka that show the exact locations of all alleged "huge mass graves" allegedly found, and / or the most general area that you believe them to be. If you can't provide a map that has the alleged "huge mass graves" clearly marked, then simply describe them to the best of your limited ability.

And by the way dullone, I want to thank you for showing the world just how right I am about the impossibility of making jews "magically disapear." You really shot yourself in the foot on that last post. (BTW, have I ever told you that you're priceless?)

I especially liked this:

"The remains of corpses incinerated in the Majdanek camp's crematorium."

YES - THE REMIANS!!

LOTS AND LOTS OF "REMAINS"!!!!!

And:

"Depends on what one accepts as forensic proof... And he also cannot explain why on earth it should only be possible to prove a crime by forensic means."

LOL!!

PRICELESS!!!

Last edited by Greg Gerdes; January 23rd, 2009 at 12:40 PM.
 
Old January 23rd, 2009 #1854
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Please notice how the dullone refused to respond to my bitchslapping her with the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
2 - Why did the Soviets / comjunists not admit to finding said graves / bodies? (Especially when that is what they went to Treblinka to do?)

retardo:

"Actually, as I said before, the Soviets made a report... and reported no bodies found in the area of Treblinka II - where in fact there were none - because the bodies had been cremated and the cremation remains mostly buried under ground, from where the Soviets saw no point in digging them up)."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

The comjunists admitted to doing excavations dumb ass!

Priceless!!!!!!!!!!

retardo:

"As I pointed out, the Soviets had no reason to go looking for graves/bodies in the Treblinka II area... there was no point in digging for cremation remains"

LOL - what do you call this dullone?


On August 24, 1944, a commission composed of the Soviet officers previously named as well as representatives of the local Polish authorities produced the first official report concerning the camp Treblinka II - it says there:

The statements of the witnesses, the book 'One Year in Treblinka' [by Jankiel Wiernik], the presence of a large quantity of ashes and cinders, the presence of personal commodities and documents strewn on the grounds - * as well as excavated from the pits * - confirm that there were ovens in the camp where people were cremated. In the beginning, the Germans buried the bodies of the murdered. After Himmler had visited the camp, the bodies were dug up with an excavator and cremated.

At the present it is difficult to uncover the traces and secrets of this oven for the cremation of people, but based upon the available data, one can picture it.


And get this one:

"The Poles must also have found the human remains described by the Soviets in their report, even if they didn’t mention them."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Priceless!!!!

Let's see this again:


roberta:

"Actually, as I said before, the Soviets made a report... and reported no bodies found in the area of Treblinka II - where in fact there were none."

Yes dullone, that is exactly what I've been saying for months now. Haven't you been paying attention?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

Last edited by Greg Gerdes; January 24th, 2009 at 05:31 PM.
 
Old January 23rd, 2009 #1855
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Now, you can tell just how tight the noose is getting around the retardo's neck by her refusal to answer this one simple question:

WHAT IS THE TOTAL NUMBER OF ALLEGED "HUGE MASS GRAVES" THAT YOU CLAIM:

"actually my position is that the whole mass murder can be and has been proven"

How many rabbi?

Can there be a simpler question than that?

What's wrong roberta, is the question too hard for you?

What are you afraid of?
 
Old January 23rd, 2009 #1856
Greg Gerdes
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BTW dullone, your claim that:

"the whole mass murder can be and has been proven"

Begs the question, if you really have accepted THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC CHALLENGE -

THEN WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?

WHAT ARE YOU AFFRAID OF?


What's wrong rabbi?

Is just one "huge mass grave" that contains just 1/10 of 1% too hard for you?
 
Old January 23rd, 2009 #1857
T.F. Scheb
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Default Where's the Beef?

Here's a fact, Muley. Eyewitness testimony is the worst form of evidence.

Here's another fact. Forensic proof is the best form of evidence.

Revisionists seek truth through forensic evidence. A crime scene as large as Treblinka, even after all these years, should yield plenty of usable evidence.

Mr. Gerdes is challenging you to provide forensic proof and offering a large amount of cash to do so.

Here's a direct question from me. Is there any forensic proof that the Treblinka Tales(TM) are true?

Thank you for your consideration.
 
Old January 23rd, 2009 #1858
Greg Gerdes
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Boy, I almost missed this one (thanks Lisa!):

The retarded rabbi:"

"First of all, no exhibit is stated by me to be the proof of anything"


Bwaaaa ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

Yes retardo, that is the most obvious statement you've made to date.

What's next? Are you going to finally admit that you’re a retarded liar?


BTW, dullone, can you show us the exact location where those core samples were taken?

I didn't think so.

Unless and until you can show us where they were taken, they can't even be included amongst your sophistic and nonsensical "evidence."

And while we're at it, when are you going to admit that those core samples don't contain so much as an iota of human remains.

NOT AN IOTA!!!

And lastly, where are the photos of the other 182 samples?

Holy cow dullone, I can’t believe how much of a help you are in proving the Sobibor / Treblinka frauds than I am.

Thank you rabbi. (BTW, have I ever told you that you're priceless?
 
Old January 24th, 2009 #1859
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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Response to TFS (just in the improbable case he’s not a Gerdes sock-puppet).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFS
Here's a fact, Muley. Eyewitness testimony is the worst form of evidence.
Not necessarily, and it’s the evidence that the reconstruction of crimes and other historical events is largely (and sometimes mostly if not wholly) based on, also in what concerns events you probably have no "doubts" about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFS
Here's another fact. Forensic proof is the best form of evidence.
Not necessarily, and what is more, it doesn’t tell the story all by itself. A pit full of stinking dead bodies or ashes and bone fragments is just a pit full of stinking dead bodies or ashes and bone fragments. It doesn’t tell you much about who the people in the pit were, who killed them and why they were killed.

This whole "best" and "worst" evidence category thing is a load of crap, actually. In order to reconstruct a crime or historical event you need to look at all evidence you can hold of and see how the various elements of evidence match and what conclusion they converge to. And whether an element of evidence from a particular category is "good" or "bad" depends on the circumstances. You may have lousy and quite useless "forensic" evidence, and you may have very good eyewitness evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFS
Revisionists seek truth through forensic evidence.
If "Revisionists" tried to find truth in "forensic" evidence alone, they would be illogical bunglers because historians nor criminal investigators are not only interested in "forensic" evidence (I take you mean physical evidence) and can on the other hand reach solid conclusions on the basis of eyewitness and documentary evidence when the physical evidence is for some reason inaccessible or has been wiped out beyond recognition. But actually truth, in the sense of historical facts, is the last thing "Revisionists" are interested in. All they care for is to make a big bloody fuss so as to avoid acknowledging events incompatible with their articles of faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFS
A crime scene as large as Treblinka, even after all these years, should yield plenty of usable evidence.
It sure would and certainly will as soon as archaeologists start investigating it, which I hope they will do as soon as they are finished at Sobibor. And to the extent it has been investigated in the past, the Treblinka site has yielded plenty of usable evidence. I suggest you read my post # 1825 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...postcount=1825 , where you will find excerpts from crime site investigation reports and photographs of the Treblinka site matching its description in these reports. It you don’t think that’s "usable evidence", even though there's no reason to doubt it's accuracy and it corroborates what documentary and eyewitness evidence tell us about the scale of the killing at Treblinka (as I pointed out in my blog under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogsp...treblinka.html ), I’d like to see the rules or standards of evidence, if any, that your position is based on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFS
Mr. Gerdes is challenging you to provide forensic proof and offering a large amount of cash to do so.
Gerdes' NAFCASH challenge and discussion on this forum are two different pairs of boots, already because Gerdes requires evidence matching his challenge requirements to be published in a certain journal to qualify for the reward. And let’s be serious, if someone looking like Gerdes:



and behaving accordingly offered you $ 100,000 for doing anything, would you expect to see a single cent no matter what you do?

I don’t. But that doesn’t mean I won’t do my best to get an article published in SKEPTIC magazine about the results that I expect this year’s archaeological work at Sobibor to yield, as I told Gerdes in my post # 1536 under http://206.41.127.17/showpost.php?p=...postcount=1536 :

Quote:
All the above, Mr. Gerdes, makes you a slimy little worm so low that I don´t intend to spend any time on you anymore. You´ll get my invitation to witness the results of core drilling/excavation in mass graves in the Sobibor area, if such core drilling/excavation should take place, and of course I shall submit evidence resulting from such core drilling/excavation to SKEPTIC magazine and inform you thereof for the purpose of your fraudulent "challenge", but other than that you’ll be on ignore from now on.
If you’re interested in Sobibor, by the way, you’ll find some documentation of physical evidence to the mass murder at that camp in my post # 1850 under http://vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p=9...postcount=1850 .

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFS
Here's a direct question from me. Is there any forensic proof that the Treblinka Tales(TM) are true?
Question answered above, buddy. Reading my posts would have made this question unnecessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFS
Thank you for your consideration.
You’re welcome, and I hope you’ll now show me the consideration of answering a question of mine - say, the still unanswered question I asked 6 months ago in my post # 172 under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php...&postcount=172 :

Quote:
Regarding what happened in 1942/43 at a place in Nazi-occupied Poland called Treblinka II, we have the following hypotheses:

Hypothesis A: Treblinka II was an extermination camp where hundreds of thousands of Jews were murdered.

Hypothesis B: Treblinka II was a transit camp through which hundreds of thousands of Jews were moved to final destinations in the Nazi-occupied territories of the Soviet Union, where some died but most survived the war and later went back to their homes or emigrated to some other place, e.g. Israel or the US.

I will now test Hypothesis A against the evidence I have presented. My opponents are invited to test Hypothesis B against the same evidence and what other evidence they can provide.
[Presentation of evidence for Hypothesis A]

Quote:
These are the exhibits of eyewitness, documentary and eyewitness evidence I have shown. None of them is by itself proof that Treblinka was an extermination camp, and some contain observation errors, overestimates and other inaccuracies. But all of them converge towards the conclusion that Treblinka was an extermination camp where hundreds of thousands were murdered, and none points to another conclusion.

Hypothesis A is the hypothesis that best explains all this evidence, the only one that takes all this evidence into account and requires few or no additional assumptions. Therefore, testing of Hypothesis A against the evidence shows that Hypothesis A is a reasonable and sound hypothesis.

I would like to see my opponents do the same testing for Hypothesis B, the one that Treblinka II was a transit camp. Test it against all available evidence and demonstrate that it explains all the evidence at least as well as Hypothesis A.
So let’s see what you got for Hypothesis B (= Treblinka was not an extermination camp but a transit camp), my friend.
 
Old January 24th, 2009 #1860
Roberto Muehlenkamp
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What did Gerdes do in response to my post # 1850 under http://vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p=9...postcount=1850 ?

Well, just what I had expected the compulsive liar, whimpering coward and hysterical fishwife to do – he freaked out again and wrote some more (mostly repeated) nonsense, thereby again showing that he cannot read and has a compulsive tendency to misrepresent his opponent’s arguments (by quoting them out of context or otherwise) and tell other lies, but no arguments and no brains. I especially liked the part where he thanked his female alter-ego "Lisa" for having given him the idea of misrepresenting one of my statements in post # 1850.

What Gerdes didn’t do, however, was the one thing he knows he should have done if he wants me to respond to his latest crap, which is to post a statement reading as follows:

"I am prepared to, from now on, also answer questions and respond to challenges myself, and to address my opponent’s arguments and the evidence presented by my opponent (all of it)."


And that’s also not about to happen, of course, because Fatso Gerdes:



it too much a



to post this simple statement.

So the ignore situation remains as concerns discussion on this forum.

If Gerdes wants me to comment his waffle despite lacking even the little courage required for posting a statement whereby he commits to answer questions and respond to challenges himself, he should also have understood by now that all he has to do is post the same waffle on the "CODOH Revisionist Forum" (as he has done in the past although he well knows that I have been banned on that forum and cannot post there).

Of course the CODOH clowns won’t like that, especially now that Thesaint’s question forced Gerdes to finally post the link to this VNN thread on CODOH. I wonder where this Thesaint fellow is, by the way. Did he not read my invitation in post # 1850, or is he another piece of "Revisionist" chicken-shit?
 
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