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Old June 13th, 2008 #41
WIGANMIKE
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I disagree comrade, sorry..

You don't have to be a expert in knife techniques to use a knife, a frightened woman, a mad man, a drug dealer, is very dangerous with any slashing style knife, most thugs use machettes as there main weapon, exception of guns..

esp in England, now how many of them have knife fighting exp?
It is a slashing tool, its used that way, you get a angry man running at me with hate in his eyes brother, slashing madly, with a machette, I'm running in the opposite direction as fast as I can..


You see in hospitals the victims of knife attacks regular, are these all trained? in my home town, there is hundreds of people with facial scars due to attacks of a knife, or knife fights, were they slashed there face and bodies..
 
Old June 13th, 2008 #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WIGANMIKE View Post
I disagree comrade, sorry..
That’s how we learn and grow.
Quote:
esp in England, now how many of them have knife fighting exp?
Are you in England or a country with a complete gun ban?
Quote:
It is a slashing tool, its used that way, you get a angry man running at me with hate in his eyes brother, slashing madly, with a machette, I'm running in the opposite direction as fast as I can..
A machete is not something feasible to carry around. A concealable knife is a different story and can be controlled. All one has to do is control the knife hand and the person fighting will do everything in their power to regain control of that hand even if other opportunities arise. A slash is telegraphed and can be blocked easily. A stab is fast and can happen before the person knows what hits them. Also a stab is more deadly if you twist the blade before removing.

Quote:
You see in hospitals the victims of knife attacks regular, are these all trained? in my home town, there is hundreds of people with facial scars due to attacks of a knife, or knife fights, were they slashed there face and bodies..
I assume we are talking about self-defense and not mugging. Some people freeze in an attack. I know of people who have robbed others by sticking their hand in their pocket. If someone sticks his hand in his pocket and tells me he wants my money, that let’s me know he has one usable hand while I have two. He will get stomped.

A lot of people get injured not because they fought back but because they didn’t fight back. These dangerous people swinging wildly with no experience are only so because their victims don’t fight back.

A block or parry is instinctive. A person may learn to hone the skills but everyone will throw their hand up if something is coming at them at an angle and they can deflect it.

Try this one. Get a sponge and dip it in some sort of dye, mustard or anything you can think of. Get a friend and tell him you are going to try twice to hit him with the sponge and see if you can get the liquid on him. Stand up straight throw a wild haymaker and this will put you off balance because of your reach to make the strike land. Also you only have inertia for the strength of your blow and physical strength is eliminated.

Next bend your knees, drop your chin and put your left hand (reverse if you are left handed) up for a block. Bend your back slightly and round your shoulders, now take the sponge at your side. Rush the person and put the force of your right hand thrusting the sponge at him. If he tries to stop your then use your left hand to run block. I guarantee if you put effort in it you will nail him with the sponge. Your strength is in your arm and you can exert force as necessary.

This is a technique that even the most novice person can use effectively against a skilled opponent. There are a hundred counters but 95 of them end up with a knife to the belly. You may take a thump to the top of the head but that is better than a blade to the gut.

If you have ever studied with a member of the SAS I guarantee he will tell you the same thing I did, with the exception of a sponge as a prop.
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Old June 13th, 2008 #43
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I am in ENGLAND bro, and yes there is a gun ban, just like there will be a knife and sword ban.

I'm using diff examples of how you don't have to be taught to use a cutting knife for it to be affective like one post said..

There's different length of machettes bro, as well as other knives that can be hid very easily, trust me I know..

On the streets? A different ball game.


Different gang fights, gangster revenge muggings its all the same, you are unarmed, some goes for you with a slashin knife, you are at a disadvantage..


I once had a instructer who taught self defence, he told me the same thing, that you can disarm someone with a knife, have you ever seen those rubber daggers they use for practise in the dojo?

Well we put it to the test, he said go for me, now remember he knows he cant get hurt as its rubber, its in his dojo, his advantage, and were both relaxed.
He dropped to the floor and started kicking at my arms and legs, while I was slashing at him.

We stopped after a min, and he said if I had my shoes on, I would have really hurt you,
I replied if I had a real knife you would have had no tendons left, and I wold have killed ya?



I said it before and I'l say it again, I wil put it to the test with anyone, I'll have a knife, and jackie chan mike tyson who ever has no weapons, and let them take the knife off me, and we'll see,

It looks good in the movies comrades, but in reality, it won't work, but I am talking about someone who is serious, not a timid little kid who you know wouldn't use it, I have took a knife off someone before, when he was threatening me with it, but only cos he relaxed, if he was a little more serious instead of wavering it around and bragging I would have been wounded, or dead
 
Old June 17th, 2008 #44
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I'm going with the long knife and tomahawk. We have .50s for trouble a mile away, .308s for anything more than 50 yards, .22 snipers, carbines and pistols. For close and personal, I'm training myself with the tomahawk. Now don't think of Mel Gibson, just think of any example of our ancestors using a sword when we fought England, we could have made swords but we made knives and tomahawks.
 
Old July 16th, 2008 #45
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Default Here's a "bladed weapon" some people might be interested in

The 'wasp knife', which can deliver a ball of compressed gas capable of killing its victim at the press of a button.
A needle in the tip of the blade shoots out the frozen ball of gas which instantly balloons to the size of a basketball, freezing organs.The American-made weapon is sold to hunters and divers and injects the frozen gas when the small handle-mounted trigger is pressed. The manufacturer describes it as perfect for downed pilots, soldiers and security guards and boasts that it will "drop many of the world's largest land predators". It can snap-freeze all tissue and organs in the area surrounding the blast.

http://www.waspknife.com/
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Old July 17th, 2008 #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwana View Post
The 'wasp knife', which can deliver a ball of compressed gas capable of killing its victim at the press of a button.
A needle in the tip of the blade shoots out the frozen ball of gas which instantly balloons to the size of a basketball, freezing organs.The American-made weapon is sold to hunters and divers and injects the frozen gas when the small handle-mounted trigger is pressed. The manufacturer describes it as perfect for downed pilots, soldiers and security guards and boasts that it will "drop many of the world's largest land predators". It can snap-freeze all tissue and organs in the area surrounding the blast.

http://www.waspknife.com/











Dam I want one
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Old September 21st, 2008 #47
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Depends on under what circumstances a bladed weapon is expected to be used, and whether or not it will be appearing as an exhibit in court.

In a streetfight and in a court afterwards, a knife is more likely to harm the person using it than the attacker.
Around the home, gardening tools such as spade, machete or axe are best.

If attacked on the street, there is usually little or no time to draw a weapon, or use one.
Its all dirt, pain, rolling around, blood, shouting, breathlessness.

Most streetfighting is carried out whilst rolling down onto one's back or knees, or whilst already lying/falling on the pavement or street.
One can expect to be being hit say 5 times a second.
Usually there will be 3 attackers, and most streetfights are effectively won or lost within 2 to 5 seconds.

Most people who try to pull a knife under those circumstances cut themselves to ribbons.
The best knife defence is to run away, or keep out of range, and throw things at their knees like a dustbin lid.

Provided one strikes with determination, the weapon doesn't need to be sharp or pointed, it will go in.Take a pen and stab with it into a potato and see what I mean.
Bear in mind that if you cut, you get their infected blood on you.

The best weapons for the street are simple safety shoes/boots, with steel/reinforced toecaps.
https://www.safgard.com/safgard/order.php?id=5

A pocket flashlight is best of all handheld objects, like those from Maglite. The police can't accuse you of using a deadly weapon if you use a Maglite, without causing legal difficulties for themselves down the line.
After that, a pen or rolled up magazine.

Anything you use that is specifically designed to be used as a weapon will count against you.

It is certainly better to be judged by 12 rather than carried to the grave by 6, but don't use things that will guarantee the end of ones life even if one wins.

A couple months working in any hospital emergency room or as or with an EMT will do more to prepare one for fighting than all the fancy weapons, martial arts etc will ever do.
Most folks hesitate with real life injuries or blood, and it is that moment of hesitation that kills them.
Being accustomed to dealing with injuries and blood , one loses that hesitation.

Spend some time dealing with the victims of car accidents, criminals, industrial accidents etc, and one learns that anything can serve as a weapon, all that is needed is the will.

One also learns about the body, and what types of injuries, where, are effective.
At the end of the day, disabling blows to their knees will take down any opponent.
The elbow and safety boot are the primary body parts to use to stop an attack, and objects wise, a rolled up magazine, bottle, can, stick, chair, pavement, streetpole, anything will do the job.

With hand-held objects, it needs to fit within your fist, not slip from sweat or blood, and to protrude a minimum of an inch or two each side of your closed fist.
Do not punch using your fist, punch using the protrusion to make contact.

The worst impact of any violent encounter is not the encounter itself, but the trauma and memories afterwards.

If one wants to learn a martial art, Wing Chun is the quickest, deadliest, easiest to learn, and fastest.

If one wants to learn street survival, the fighting/training needs to be focused upon this type of activity, or one is wasting one's time, and will probably pay with one's life.





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Old September 21st, 2008 #48
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Originally Posted by ngrh8r View Post
I used "bladed weapons" rather than "swords" in the title, since this debate
can extend to knives/daggers, and to a limited degree, even polearms.

I've always found the sword to be the most beautiful and elegant of weapons. A tremendous amount of focus and concentration is required just to wield one without danger to oneself. After all, even a novice can pick up a weapon like the quarterstaff(rokushakubo) or nunchuku without suffering more than some nasty bumps and bruises. I've seen a friend lose most of a thumb trying to imitate Iaijutsu, which he said was "easy".

We know that thrusting and cutting(slashing) both have their pros and cons, but does one method have a distinct advantage over the other? Lets look at some of the facts:
I share your enthusiasm for swords. I have a sweet katana, and my husband has this really nice carbon steel reverse blade katana with a blood groove that I simply adore.

LOL, now, I know "adore" is a bad choice of words for a weapon, but I love it. Ive always liked blades and firearms.

Edit: Incidentally, Id be hard pushed to choose between a center mass thrust or a good old fashioned beheading. (cut)
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Old November 6th, 2008 #49
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Well I see a few of you guys and gals like Katanas. They aren't very good for stabbing. The katana is really a pretty fragile weapon, it is meant to cut, not stab, pierce or chop. A classic broadsword (for the sake of example) maybe used for thrusting or stabbing, although chopping is usually better given the weight and style of edge. A groove down the middle of a sword, contrary to popular belief, is not for blood. It increases the flexibility of a blade which means extended blade life. When it comes to knives? Well if its a big boe(sp?) knife or machete a chopping or cutting motion would generally be better than thrusting. But really bladed weapons are out-dated, ranged weapons have always proven to be better and user-friendly, be it spear, bow, or gun. But when engaged with another person in combat, if you can disable them with non-lethal means, its always better that way. If you have a bat or blunt object? Please for the sake of humanity hit them in the arm or leg instead of the face. Same with a bladed weapon, arm or leg? They are going to most likely be incapacitated from a good strike on any of those ligaments.

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Old December 27th, 2008 #50
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if you ever go to Bosnia, and drink in bar, so you jump in barfight - it will be bloody, in Bosnia is normal to make barfight with axes - that is devastating wepon - one strike, and you are killed or heavly injured
 
Old December 29th, 2008 #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by einzelwesen View Post
. . . no sword that is made primarily for slashing will ever be as effective at stabbing*, as a sword that is made for primarily for stabbing. And vice versa#.

*: Like any sort of Western-style straight two handed sword with a point on it, like a claymore or a German zwei-hander.

#: Like an old-school rapier.
I differ from this view.
Consider the Japanese katana.
I am a student of Iaido and I can assure you that a katana is just as effective as a stabbing weapon as it is a slashing weapon.
The katana is a tremendously versatile weapon that puts the fear of God into any untrained person who is confronted by someone who knows how to use one.
 
Old December 29th, 2008 #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WIGANMIKE View Post
I once had a instructer who taught self defence, he told me the same thing, that you can disarm someone with a knife, have you ever seen those rubber daggers they use for practise in the dojo?
Well we put it to the test, he said go for me, now remember he knows he cant get hurt as its rubber, its in his dojo, his advantage, and were both relaxed.
He dropped to the floor and started kicking at my arms and legs, while I was slashing at him.
We stopped after a min, and he said if I had my shoes on, I would have really hurt you,
I replied if I had a real knife you would have had no tendons left, and I wold have killed ya?
I said it before and I'l say it again, I wil put it to the test with anyone, I'll have a knife, and jackie chan mike tyson who ever has no weapons, and let them take the knife off me, and we'll see.
Do not judge all martial arts and martial artists on the basis of this one experience.
I am a student of Shotokan karate and I have taken a knife off a street thug.
The sequence for a standard engagement of this type goes like this: deflect, disarm, kill. This should be done and dusted well within five seconds of the appearance of the knife.
Shotokan was developed in Okinowa as an evolution of Kung Fu, where the Okinowans (who were not allowed to possess weapons) had to take down Samauri on both foot and horseback.
I am a long way from the top of the Shotokan food chain.
My Sensei used to be an army unarmed combat instructor. Shotokan is the martial art taught to members of the Japan Self Defence Force. You may find it interesting to put Shotokan into a YouTube search and watch the Japanese military video that will come up as one of the search results.
I doubt very much that anyone who attacked someone at the level of my Sensei with a knife or even a sword would live to tell the tale. The style was developed with that sort of confrontation in mind.

Last edited by Derrick MacThomas; December 29th, 2008 at 03:54 AM.
 
Old December 29th, 2008 #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane_Doe#5 View Post
I share your enthusiasm for swords. I have a sweet katana, and my husband has this really nice carbon steel reverse blade katana with a blood groove that I simply adore.

LOL, now, I know "adore" is a bad choice of words for a weapon, but I love it. Ive always liked blades and firearms.

Edit: Incidentally, Id be hard pushed to choose between a center mass thrust or a good old fashioned beheading. (cut)
You may enjoy a visit to the Solingen web site to look at their range of German made katanas.
They are magnificent . . . and expensive.
If you have the money . . .
 
Old December 29th, 2008 #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick MacThomas View Post
I differ from this view.
Consider the Japanese katana.
I am a student of Iaido and I can assure you that a katana is just as effective as a stabbing weapon as it is a slashing weapon.
The katana is a tremendously versatile weapon that puts the fear of God into any untrained person who is confronted by someone who knows how to use one.
I disagree with your assessment. The original poster was talking about swords made specifically for slashing and not for thrusting.

The katana isn't specifically made for slashing. It's made for versatility and the techniques taught for the katana, while primarily slashing, includes thrusting. The katana isn't in the same class as the claymore or the zwiehander when it comes to pure slashing power, but neither the claymore or the zwiehander can be wielded with the same speed and precision as a katana. They also do as much crushing damage as they do cutting damage, which is something not possible with a katana blade. A nodachi would be best in a comparison with a claymore....but again these are different cultures and fighting styles.
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Old March 11th, 2009 #55
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If you are wielding a knife of ordinary size or a bayonet (without rifle), a thrust or stab is the more devastating attack.

Fighting techniques aside, the slashing cut is rarely fatal but the thrust often is.

If you’re carrying a sword then you could and should be carrying a gun. If you’re carrying a gun and a sword then you should shit-can the sword and carry more bullets or another gun. If you’re carrying two guns and a sword you should ditch the sword and don body armor etc…

Hey Bwana: That waspknife is downright spooky and might be very effective. All I could think was “How about a bow and arrow to carry that tip – or an ice-pick tip?”
 
Old March 12th, 2009 #56
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If you are wielding a knife of ordinary size or a bayonet (without rifle), a thrust or stab is the more devastating attack.

Fighting techniques aside, the slashing cut is rarely fatal but the thrust often is.

If you’re carrying a sword then you could and should be carrying a gun. If you’re carrying a gun and a sword then you should shit-can the sword and carry more bullets or another gun. If you’re carrying two guns and a sword you should ditch the sword and don body armor etc…

Hey Bwana: That waspknife is downright spooky and might be very effective. All I could think was “How about a bow and arrow to carry that tip – or an ice-pick tip?”
I pretty much agree with what you said except for the 'fatality' rates. It really all depends on where you're stabbing and where you're slashing.

It's important if you're stabbing to go as deep as you can. Stab THROUGH the target, not at it.

Even still, remember that all but the most devastating knife strikes will allow your opponent some time to strike back before they bleed out.

In a 'real world' knife fight between two people that know how to use a blade, one will probably go to the morgue and the other will go to the hospital. Either way, you're going to get cut more than likely.
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Old March 12th, 2009 #57
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the story of technology and society made thrusting the superior tactic. firearms and social closeness made armor obsolete. without the problem of armor, there is no contest. thrusting is more efficient. slashing is just a method of whacking through armor. good armor just deflects a thrust in the old days of yore in europe you had to hack through it. then firearms and crossbows and the superior use of longbows all came together to slow and reverse the utility of chain and plate combo armor. over time less and less useful.

think about it in terms of engineering. how does a bullet kill, like a bludgeon or a slashing weapon? no a penetrating one.

slashing is inefficient. thrusting is efficient. where are knives used the most in society? jail. always a thrusting shiv is prefered to some half assed slashing deal like a razor melted into a toothbrush. what a piece of crap that would be. one would always prefer a sharpened screwdriver or something like that if you could get it.
 
Old March 12th, 2009 #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus Epiphanes View Post
the story of technology and society made thrusting the superior tactic. firearms and social closeness made armor obsolete. without the problem of armor, there is no contest. thrusting is more efficient. slashing is just a method of whacking through armor. good armor just deflects a thrust in the old days of yore in europe you had to hack through it. then firearms and crossbows and the superior use of longbows all came together to slow and reverse the utility of chain and plate combo armor. over time less and less useful.

think about it in terms of engineering. how does a bullet kill, like a bludgeon or a slashing weapon? no a penetrating one.

slashing is inefficient. thrusting is efficient. where are knives used the most in society? jail. always a thrusting shiv is prefered to some half assed slashing deal like a razor melted into a toothbrush. what a piece of crap that would be. one would always prefer a sharpened screwdriver or something like that if you could get it.
I've noticed that in movies they always have the hero using a sword, there is something heroic about them and maybe all the slashing looks better on the camera. Yet historically the main weapon for just about every army was the spear, which evolved into the pike for footmen and the lance for horsemen, even the vikings used spears even though we think of them as wielding axes.
 
Old March 12th, 2009 #59
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Originally Posted by RebelWithACause View Post

Even still, remember that all but the most devastating knife strikes will allow your opponent some time to strike back before they bleed out.

In a 'real world' knife fight between two people that know how to use a blade, one will probably go to the morgue and the other will go to the hospital. Either way, you're going to get cut more than likely.

I concur with you on this.
 
Old March 12th, 2009 #60
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http://www.coldsteel.com/chinesewarsword.html

Interesting site. They do a lot of demos with the swords they sell. youtubes of them hacking up pieces of meat, etc. Good way to demo what it will do.

I agree with Rebel myself. If you get in a knife fight, you are going to get cut yourself.
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