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Old July 13th, 2006 #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin

A good Glaser round is nice if you want the shotshell type.
Glaser is actually a bullet, a very lethal one, not to be confused with a shotshell, a totally different animal.

A Glaser is a hollow jacket filled with snakeshot.
 
Old July 13th, 2006 #22
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Duh, we were talking about over penetration. However at 10 feet snake shot to the face will stop your attacker. No VNNFíer would pursue a random attack if their prey sprayed them with snakeshot.

Random attackers donít have a personal vendetta that they are trying to pursue so they want to attack and leave without harm. If you fire a weapon 9 times out of 10 that is enough to stop an attacker. If you fire in a populated area you will run the risk of shooting an unintended victim.


Here is something you should consider also. If you carry an auto over a revolver you canít shoot shotshells. Also I have heard that Glasers donít cycle well either. I know there is some VNNFíer who has the perfect gun that cycles every round, but the people I know say automatics donít cycle Glasers.













Quote:
Originally Posted by Hate Dept.
Glaser is actually a bullet, a very lethal one, not to be confused with a shotshell, a totally different animal.

A Glaser is a hollow jacket filled with snakeshot.
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Old July 14th, 2006 #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Duh, we were talking about over penetration. However at 10 feet snake shot to the face will stop your attacker. No VNNFíer would pursue a random attack if their prey sprayed them with snakeshot.
Duh? Glasers don't over-penetrate. That's part of the reason they're called Safety Slugs. They essentially don't ricochet either.

Why in the FUCK would anyone use snakeshot on a human?
 
Old July 14th, 2006 #24
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They donít penetrate body armor either, which is what hordes of thugs on PCP are wearing while carrying HK 308ís when they attack someone at random.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hate Dept.
Duh? Glasers don't over-penetrate. That's part of the reason they're called Safety Slugs. They essentially don't ricochet either.
Why would anyone want to use snakeshot on a snake?

Snakes eat bugs and rats.
Quote:
Why in the would anyone use snakeshot on a human?
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Old July 14th, 2006 #25
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If you are a woman, you need to understand that many perpetrators will not be impressed by the gun in your hand. They will think that you do not have the courage to use it. They may even laugh and taunt you as they "call your bluff" before they lunge at you. My advice is to think now what the intentions are of any one breaking into your home. Think now of what they would do to yourself and/or your children if they get their hands on you. Robbery? If someone is breaking and entering to rob you while you are home, they have no intention of letting any witnesses live through it. Never doubt this. Make up your mind now that if this ever happens, you will shoot to kill. No hesitation, no internal debates. Just aim and pull the trigger. And do not take for granted that just because they are down they are out. Keep your gun trained on them from a safe distance. Yell at the children to get out of the house and run for help. Think of your children and in your coldest voice tell the son of a bitch if he moves he is dead. Set your mind to this now, and then if the time ever comes you won't even think about it. You will do what needs to be done. Never ever feel remorse for having to shoot someone who is intent on doing major harm to you and/or your children. The son of a bitch has no right. Never forget that.
 
Old July 14th, 2006 #26
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I don't think we're talking about a strictly home defense gun here. More concealed carry.

That said, why in the hell WOULD anyone want to rely on snake shot to stop a human? Has anyone thought that maybe, just maybe, some crazed or drunk or stoned criminal might become ENRAGED at being shot by something that will do little more than agitate him?

All reputable sources on the issue advise using pistol rounds that get at least 12 INCHES of penetration and expands reliably. Any modern, brand name hollowpoint will fit the bill here. Most reputable sources on the subject dismiss snake shot as next to useless.

As for overpenetration, by the time a hollowpoint has expanded and is done popping out the backside of your attacker, I doubt it will have much force to do any serious harm to someone beyond. If you are cheap, though, and don't get a hollowpoint that still expands despite clothing, you could be screwed.
 
Old July 14th, 2006 #27
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I saw that in a movie also it is funny. Do you think a random attacker will stand there and be shot while still coming? Only a nutcase would think people get wound up on drugs and go out attacking, if they got their drugs they have what they want. If they are hitting you up for drug money they are hurting and donít want to be hurt anymore. When you fire a gun an attacker will run. Turn off Jewvision and get back to reality.

Wait this is the internet, I am sure someone here has been assaulted by a gang of Negroes and had to shoot their 110 round ak and they still kept coming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrocker8
Has anyone thought that maybe, just maybe, some crazed or drunk or stoned criminal might become ENRAGED at being shot by something that will do little more than agitate him?
Then they refer you to a gun or round in which they have stock. Donít believe anything the gun mags write because they get paid to write what makes the most money, not what gives you bang for your buck.
Quote:
All reputable sources on the issue advise using pistol rounds that get at least 12 INCHES of penetration and expands reliably.
Most, actually 100% of the gun magazine reputable sources dismiss the Phoenix Arms gun as a waste of money and time. They will claim it is worthless. However there is an article online about a man who bought a cheap one and fired it 1,000 times in the space of 2 days without malfunction. My cousin owned a gun store and he sold them for $39.00 each. I personally know 4 people who bought them and I was one of them. Not a single one jammed, misfired or was off center. They functioned flawlessly.

Take your advice from people with actual experience and not gun nuts that think I you donít own an $800 pistol you are wasting your money.

Sometimes gun nuts remind me of High School peer pressure. Kids would buy $300 Negro shoes when my $12.00 sneakers gave me the same service.

I get so sick of listening to people quote gun magazines like the authors know what they are talking about. They are paid to write what makes money. If not they would praise cheap surplus and many cheaper guns such as Norinco and such.


Would I rather have a Glock over a Raven? Sure, could I get a Glock on a budget of $40.00? No.
Quote:
Most reputable sources on the subject dismiss snake shot as next to useless.
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Old July 15th, 2006 #28
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A reliable gun for $39.00?
 
Old July 15th, 2006 #29
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Yes, the Raven by Phoenix Arms is a reliable 25 auto that sells for around $39.00 (in 1998 I donít know the current price of such a gun). The one that I owned shot without flaw. I never had a single misfire and it was accurate to about 25 feet, which is great for a pocket pistol. It was smooth, hammerless and had a reliable safety. I bought a Lorcin at the same time and it was worthless. However the Raven was an excellent gun.

Of course I wouldnít say it would equal a Glock or an S&W, however you couldnít find either of the latter for $39 either.

My mom bought a set of them consecutively numbered and she loved them. My best friend bought one after I talked him into it and he said he never had a misfire or hang.

The man I bought them from (my cousin) owned a gun store and he had about 10 of them and he said he never had a single misfire even after firing several hundred rounds though a couple of them in a day or so.

If you are on a budget and need some protection that is an excellent weapon, however if you have the scratch get a Glock. Even if you have a Glock it is a nice weapon to have around for $39.00.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirt
A reliable gun for $39.00?
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Old July 15th, 2006 #30
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Keep in mind I am talking about a quick reliable gun for under $50. I am not saying it is the best or the end all be all, however if you have a $50 laying around I canít think of a better value gun wise.






Make: Phoenix Arms Model: HP22 Action: Single Action Caliber: .22 LR
Rating:
Review: I think the HP22 is a great, affordable 22 pistol. Ive shot thousands of rounds thru mine, with only one problem. The magazine release came loose after about 3000 rounds. I contacted the manufacturer, explained the problem, they said they could send me the part, or send the gun in for repairs. I was very happy to see that they were willing to send out the part. I didnt like the idea of spending $35 to ship, to get a $3 part replaced. Plus I perfer to work on my guns myself. But what I liked most about this pistol is that its an affordable alternative to any of the other target 22s out there. You do get what you pay for. But I feel like Ive gotten a lot more than what I paid for with this pistol. I have several friends with some big name manufacturers 22s, and have plenty of problems with them. Which by the way every one of them spent more than double what I paid for the HP22. If your one of the people here complaining about yours, just let me know how much you want for it.

Make: Phoenix Arms Model: HP22A Action: Single Action Caliber: .22
Rating:

Review: My wife and I attended a gun show in the midwest where we were introduced to the Phoenix Arms HP22A with a 5" barrel. She owns a scoped Browning Buckmark and wanted an inexpensive, non-scoped pistol to enjoy on the range. We purchased the HP22A went to the range. The weapon is small and my wife weighs 110 pounds at 5' 3" so it fit her hand perfectly. We fired 200 rounds with one malfunction that could be classed as a weapon fault. The extracted casing hung up in the slide. A quick, short rack of the slide and she was shooting again. Two or three other malfunctions were shooter related. Accuracy was not that good at 25 yards but she was on the target 80% of the time. The double safety was not a problem as we did not use the fire-block safety on the range. She had no complaints about the trigger pull and pronounced it as a "sweet shooting gun" although rounds 9 and 10 are a little tough to load in the magazine, especially with small fingers. She finally took to loading only eight rounds. I, however, ad a major problem with the dis-assembly and re-assembly after cleaning. The slide spring tends to bend on re-assembly. I finally had to cut a small thin piece of plastic to insert above the spring to hold it in place while assembling the barrel to the frame and then pulling the plastic strip out as the barrel is seated. I used this piece of plastic after 10 tries to assemble and once went looking for the spring after it launched itself across the room. She loves the piece and would recommend it for any of the ladies just starting to enjoy shooting.

Make: Phoenix Arms Model: Raven Action: Single Action Caliber: .25
Rating:
Review: I have 2 Raven .25 that I bought together for $90.Both guns were new unfired in the box.Both guns had bad feeding and stovepiping with UMC,WIN,FED so I tossed them in a draw .A few weeks latter a friend bought a new Beretta 21a .25 on my advice and was having feeding problems like my Ravens.I switched the mag from my .25 Beretta and the gun worked fine."Ah ha! "I said as I ordered a cheap pack of 10 raven mags .I manually worked the guns with the new mags till I found the 2 mags I needed.Went out to shoot 30 rounds from one gun and 20 rounds from the other without a hitch.What was a surprise was the accuracy of these Ravens at 30 feet .Now I have a car and a office gun both have a safety.Good deal.

Make: Phoenix Arms Model: hp22 Action: Single Action Caliber: .22 LR
Rating:
Review: Never had a problem with this gun. Well over 1000 rounds and one jam due to somebody elses limp rist (stove pipe). Would have gave it a 5 star but field stripping is a pain. Great plinking gun!
http://www.handgunreview.com/make.as...Phoenix%20Arms


Lorcin L-22:

"Some of our shooters liked the way the Lorcin L-22 felt in the hand, but we wouldn't pay any amount of money for a gun that self-destructs in a couple of hundred rounds. Stay away from this one."
May 1996



Phoenix Arms HP-22:

"Our shooters didn't like that Phoenix Arms HP-22's magazine interlock, and it was a pain in the butt to reassemble. But, due to its steel construction and reliable functioning, we do think it is worth considering as an inexpensive plinker."
May 1996

Lorcin L-25:
"The Lorcin L-25's best attribute was that it didn't bite the shooter's hand. Though adequate in most areas, feeding problems and inferior accuracy prevents us from recommending it."
June 1993



Phoenix Arms Raven:

"For a gun of this type, the Phoenix Arms Raven isn't bad. The malfunctions we encountered were well within a pistol's normal break-in period, and its overall performance was acceptable for its intended use. Its durability will be limited due to its alloy construction, but for less than $75 that's to be expected."
February 1993



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...re/rating.html
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Last edited by Sean Martin; July 15th, 2006 at 01:27 AM.
 
Old July 15th, 2006 #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
Those automatics are just to small. I donít think 45 is the way to go since he is looking for a small easily concealable gun. If you have small hands a good Taurus 38 special with hollow points will give you all the knockdown you need. They are cheap, small, reliable and reasonably accurate. With a concealed gun you are not going to go to a competition shoot and hit targets at 100 yards. Also contrary to science fiction all robbers are not wearing $2,000 worth of Kevlar and can bench-press a Toyota. When the bullets start flying people will scatter. 99% of the time if you use a concealed weapon it will be within 10 feet. I can assure you getting hit with a 38 special hollow point (even the cheap Wal-mart stuff) will turn your attacker the other way. Get a hammerless gun that can handle +P ammunition. Purchase a good home defense load and it will give you the knockdown.

If you do want superior knockdown in a small weapon and have the money go buy a Glock in the 45 gap caliber. These can be purchased in small, medium to large frame. If you have large hands you may want to go with the medium frame. Snag free, easy to conceal and reliable. Sure it may cost you around $500 for a new one but if it saves your life could you put a price on that? Many people pay that much every month to 6 months for health or life insurance.

If you have a Glock you can use if for concealed personal-defense, target practice and home defense.

If you have some extra money get a Glock, if you are on a tight budget get a hammerless Taurus 38 special and a box of self defense loads.


http://www.gunblast.com/Glock37.htm
I was with my brother today when he traded in his glock 40 for a hamerless ruger 357 sunbbed nose, he was torn between the Taurus and Ruger 357. The Ruger is an awesome gun and very conceable, the reason my brother made the trade is because the glock 40 is too bulky and hard to conceal in the summer, but he did have good words to say about the glock 40. The Ruger was selling in the high 400 range the Taurus was in the lower 400, if things go right in the next few weeks I think I might get the Taurus, does that seem like a reasonable price for it?
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Old July 15th, 2006 #32
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If I bought a Taurus I would shoot as many rounds as I could afford though it and that way if something was going to break it would be at the range and I could get the problem fixed before it mattered. Get it fixed for free on the range then had a guaranteed reliable gun when it counts.

I was in a gun store this week and they had a Taurus Stainless 41 magnum for $369 snub nose, and a Taurus 38 (5 shot) snub nose revolver blued steel for $199. They had a 44 special snub nose stainless and 5 shot for $399. All of these were good deals, that should give you an idea.

For some reason 357 caliber is more expensive. In Ashland they said a medium frame Glock in the 40 caliber will run $500 out the door new. Glocks are rare trade ins around here. You are lucky to see a used Glock once a year and then they are $475 or more. So far in 2006 I have seen one used Glock in the desert camo, it was the compact size and it was $475. No one around here trades them in. They trade S&W’s all the time though. I saw two S&W medium frame stainless 9mm’s 15 round for $325 each today. I probably could have gotten them both for $600 plus tax but didn’t have the money or need for them.

I like Taurus and they have an excellent lifetime warranty. Even if you buy the gun used they will replace a part if it is a factory defect.

Depending on location, here S&W is king and so is Ruger. However no one likes a Taurus so the used ones are usually cheap. Ruger is a good gun and I have no complaints about how well they function, but in my opinion they cost to much. You can find an S&W or a Taurus that is identical to whichever Ruger for about 20-30% less.

The Ruger has a nice 22 target pistols, however the Browning version of it is superior and about half the price. That is the way with most Ruger guns. The only Ruger guns you get the best value for the money (again in my opinion) is the Redhawk or the blackhawk. I haven’t seen anyone match them for quality and price combined.

This is just me, but if I were to purchase a ruger those would be the only two guns I would purchase.

Taurus on the other hand produces fine weapons for fair prices and I have never know of anyone that has owned one that has had anything but praise for both the quality and price.


That is the rundown on used and new gun prices in Ashland. Don’t even ask about Princeton, I wouldn’t finance my house to buy a gun there. The last gun store I visited didn’t have anything under $400 and nothing I would pay over $150 for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grocer
I was with my brother today when he traded in his glock 40 for a hamerless ruger 357 sunbbed nose, he was torn between the Taurus and Ruger 357. The Ruger is an awesome gun and very conceable, the reason my brother made the trade is because the glock 40 is too bulky and hard to conceal in the summer, but he did have good words to say about the glock 40.

The Ruger was selling in the high 400 range the Taurus was in the lower 400, if things go right in the next few weeks I think I might get the Taurus, does that seem like a reasonable price for it?
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Last edited by Sean Martin; July 15th, 2006 at 02:26 AM.
 
Old July 15th, 2006 #33
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I think that gun battles use a lot of rounds. Also shotgun shells lack accuracy, range, penetration and power at distance. Snub nosed pistols also lack accuracy and power.
 
Old July 15th, 2006 #34
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I'm going to do something I don't usually do and agree with Doc Martin.

The Phoenix Arms Raven .25 is a very reliable pistol. I own one and it has shot every round I put into it without fail, both FMJ and HP. I paid $55 for mine, which is probably too much, but I don't regret it.

That said, I would NEVER depend upon my Raven as a primary weapon. I carry it ONLY as a last ditch backup to my primary firearm, which is usaully a Glock 26 9mm or S&W 99 .40cal. The .25 round is too weak.
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Old July 15th, 2006 #35
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Yes, I agree but for the money (on a budget) it is a quick gun to get until a person can do better. And of course in a life or death situation it is better than nothing.


On your S&W 99 how is the trigger pull? I saw one in a pawnshop last week and it had a really difficult trigger pull. It was so stiff it was almost like the trigger was jammed or something.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeSixPack

That said, I would NEVER depend upon my Raven as a primary weapon. I carry it ONLY as a last ditch backup to my primary firearm, which is usaully a Glock 26 9mm or S&W 99 .40cal. The .25 round is too weak.
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Old July 15th, 2006 #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean(doc)martin
On your S&W 99 how is the trigger pull? I saw one in a pawnshop last week and it had a really difficult trigger pull. It was so stiff it was almost like the trigger was jammed or something.
Mine is the compact S&W 99, not the 990 or similar models. It is the mini licensed copy of the Walther P99. It is double action on the first shot (with a decocker) and single action on subsequent shots. The DA trigger pull is equivalent to most common revolvers, and the SA pull is less than 1 pound (my estimate). If the trigger pull DA is excessive then the gun may need repair.
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Old November 22nd, 2006 #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hate Dept.
Duh? Glasers don't over-penetrate. That's part of the reason they're called Safety Slugs. They essentially don't ricochet either.

Why in the FUCK would anyone use snakeshot on a human?
I for one am very curious as to how a carjacker might react to a face full of snakeshot. I find the image amusing.
 
Old November 25th, 2006 #38
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Shit in... shit out. It may not be the gun.

http://www.ruagammotecusa.com/brands.cfm


Ammo is like a Hallmark card... when you REALLY care, send THEM the very best!
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Old December 11th, 2006 #39
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Either can be useful. The .38 snubby or .32/380 ACP you have with you is better than the .500 S&W you left at home. ANY hole you put into an attacker is better than wishing you had a gun! Personally I carry an auto, but have also USED a small revolver to defend my life, so I an speaking from personal experience, not wishful thinking.

The snake shot is not much good past ten feet for ANY use, but at very close range (car jacking) a face full MIGHT be useful to blind your attacker. Depends on if you are that cool, that accurate, that skilled. Don't kid yourself, 99.9% of the people out there are not, including the ones here. Plus if you are caught and it got out you intended to maim your attacker "for fun", you will be in prison so fast you won't believe it.

Think you are God's gift to gunning? Go to your local IPSC/IDPA shoot and try it. Can you pull the gun from the holster and get six aimed shots off in three seconds or less? I can and I'm not all that fast. Yes, with an electric timer and hands over my head. Alot of shooters go to pieces when being timed and watched, but "if they were on the street they would kick butt!!" Yeah, right. You can't handle the pressure of being watched and timed, but fighting for your life makes you better under pressure? Pardon me while I laugh.

ALL guns can jam, Glocks, revolvers, etc. If you think YOUR gun can't jam, it just means you don't shoot enough. I personally have seen three Glocks blow up. When Glock blow, they are completely trashed. When a 1911 blows (I had one do so while I was shooting it, probably a high primer) NOTHING was serious damaged! After knocking what was left of the case out of the barrel, I continued to shoot. Does this mean the 1911 is better than the Glock? Of course! Does this mean you should get rid of your Glock and get a 1911? Of course not! Wait until the Glock breaks (if you shoot it, it will) and THEN buy a 1911! Why don't Glock owners know any good gunsmiths? Because when a Glock breaks, they buy a 1911.

OK, only SLIGHTLY kidding!! If you like Glocks, than carry a Glock, but don't buy into the BS that Glocks are the end all and be all of handguns that so many Glockheads claim. They DO break. When they break it WILL be a pain to detail strip and get parts for. When they blow, they are normally completely trashed. They can't handle lead (the polygonal rifling will clog and then the pressures build until the gun explodes) so you have to use only jacketed ammo, which makes it less than optimal for survival/back country/out of country use that some of us subject our guns too and you use what you can get, or do with out. YMMV.

Summery:
The gun you have WITH YOU is better than the gun you left at home.

Use the best FACTORY hollow point/Glazer/defensive ammo you can get, not snake shot.

If it was made by humans it WILL break, at the worst possible moment of course.

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE! Join your local ISPC/IDPA/shooting club and LEARN!

Buy a quality holster to carry your gun, not some piece of floppy crap.

BUY AMMO! RELOAD! With the demonrats getting in and the price of copper/zinc/lead going sky high, there has never been a better time to learn to reload and stockpile all you can of powder, primers, cartridge cases, as well as loaded ammo. It isn't going to get less expensive and may get banned competely.

If you think the idea of ammo getting banned is far fetched, just look at the ammo bans introduced by the deamonrats already. The Commie-fornia $1 per bullet tax bill (just think what that will do to a box of .22s!), the serial number all cases and bullets bills, the powder trace tag bills, primers that go bad after a few months/years bills, the UN ammo bans.

Hope this helps.
 
Old December 12th, 2006 #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SynchronicWR
I for one am very curious as to how a carjacker might react to a face full of snakeshot. I find the image amusing.
Christ, man! No way.

Snakeshot if for snakes. Why carry some useless little thing like that when your life is at stake?
 
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