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Old February 23rd, 2006 #1
durendal
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Default the m4

my friend loves his weapons. after having a long discussion with him, i came to the conclusion that my best bet for an AR would be the m4 which can be built for around 450 dollars. and a 9mm for a handgun.


the bushmaster is definetely my first option for the ar.

as far as pistols go, would the berreta 92f be a good way to go?

your opinions are much appreciated
 
Old February 23rd, 2006 #2
T.J. McAllister
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I am not a huge fan of the Beretta, due to the grip angle, but they are good pistols. I would check out the Glock 19 and a CZ-75 if you really like the 9mm. Especially the CZ.

An M4 type could maybe be assembled for $450, but realistically it will be more like $500-550.

Inexpensive uppers can be found at Model 1 Sales.

http://www.model1sales.com/

Remember that the lower is the "gun", so you can order an upper just the same as you would a magazine or sling. Lowers are usually significantly cheaper than upper halves (around $150).
 
Old February 24th, 2006 #3
New Order
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Beretta 92 would be a good choice as would the Bushmaster.
Just make sure you have plenty of spare magazines and ammo.
 
Old February 24th, 2006 #4
durendal
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Default thank you

i think i will go with the 92f. although the glock is a strong second choice.
 
Old February 24th, 2006 #5
antiZOG
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Regarding the Beretta 92F 9mm pistol: I have read and heard about several instances where the slide broke in two while firing. I even owned a Beretta 92 myself for awhile, did not have any problems with it mechanically, but I didn't like the bulkiness of it, and it has the long, heavy double-action trigger-pull for the first shot. But, in fairness, most modern double-action automatics are like this, for safety reasons.
Oh, on the Beretta, you CAN thumb-cock the hammer back for the first shot,or leave it cocked after racking the slide.
The thumb-safety is engaged by moving it in the opposite direction of the Colt 1911 gov't model .45. On the 1911 you flick it down to fire -a more natural and easier motion in my opinion.

For full-sized automatics, I'm a .45 Auto man myself.
If you're going to go 9mm, I'd say get a Glock or some other light-weight polymer-framed handgun. If you don't like plastic, then get a Browning Hi-Power -It's sleek, reliable and proven.
Whatever you get, a more compact model may be more versatile and more likely to be with you when you need it, even with the reduced magazine capacity.
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Old February 24th, 2006 #6
durendal
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Default as for .45's

how is the SOCOM.

one friend liked it the other said it was too light.

what is your take?
 
Old February 24th, 2006 #7
antiZOG
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Sorry, don't know much about the SOCOM .45 -I've owned numerous .45 auto-pistols, and most were 1911 gov't or "Commander" ( shorter slide ) versions. I owned a Glock Model 30 once (in 45 ACP) but it was too bulky for my liking. Later they came out with a thinner one, but it only held about 6-7 shots (still not bad ).
I'm old-fashioned I guess -I like the single-action, cocked and locked .45. For 9mm I like the single-action Browning Hi-Power. For a good, concealable, go-anywhere gun, I would go with the Kel-Tec .380 or .32.
With a handgun, you can't have it all. If you want power and magazine capacity you're going to have to go larger. If you make the handgun too big and powerful, you might as well get a carbine or a rifle instead.
There is no free lunch.
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"...In a Jewed-out society, where the media and ultimately the entire culture is controlled by diabolical kikes, they ( women ) can be controlled like evil puppets. " -A. Anglin
 
Old February 24th, 2006 #8
durendal
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Default thank you

to be honest my main concern is a reliable rifle and im sticking with the m4

as for a hand gun im trying not to stray far from the path of round availability.

if a crisis shoould come i dont want to many diff calibered weapons.

i want something easily accessible.
 
Old February 24th, 2006 #9
antiZOG
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I don't think you can go wrong with the M-4 or any AR-15/M-16 variant. There are probably more after-market accessories and add-ons for this type of weapon than there is for anything else out there. There are even numerous upper receivers of different calibers that you can slap on to your lower. Get ahold of a copy of the SHOTGUN NEWS and you'll see what I mean.
Ammo availabilty is high, although I personally prefer the 7.62 NATO over the 5.56 mm.

As for handgun calibers, 9mm Parabellum/Luger is probably the most plentiful
and available center-fire pistol round on the planet
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"...In a Jewed-out society, where the media and ultimately the entire culture is controlled by diabolical kikes, they ( women ) can be controlled like evil puppets. " -A. Anglin
 
Old February 24th, 2006 #10
durendal
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Default very good

i will check into that.
 
Old February 24th, 2006 #11
New Order
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I have had Glocks and don't like them. Many law enforcement people have experienced too many ADs for them to be adopted.
The Beretta 92 is a strong safe pistol it is the M9 of the US Army and has performed well, very well. As to the breaking slides. Taurus used the exact same machinery as the first 92s they took over the plant from Beretta in Brazil, literally thousands and thousands of these pistols were sold and used worldwide in all sorts of conditions and some have had 100,000+ rounds through them, not one slide broke. The reason for that initial problem during testing was SPEC OPS demanding a certain configuration a certain metallurgy and special ammo. It was not the fault of the design or of Beretta. Beretta went on to beef up the slide but it was totally unnecessary.

Stick with the calibers of the military, 9mm and .223
 
Old February 25th, 2006 #12
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I think that you should consider getting a .308 rifle. .223 rifles are arguably better for combat within 50-100m due to the lower recoil, less weight and size, higher rate of fire, but the range and accuracy and penetration are much better with the larger round. Ammunition also lasts longer. I suppose that it depends what you want it for. An assault rifle seems like overkill for most situations. In the hypothetical situation of shooting at government troops (with armoured vests, helmets, vehicles and stuff), which is the only situation that comes to mind requiring an assault rifle, I think that you would be much better with a .308 one.
 
Old February 25th, 2006 #13
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Hey I just did a bit of searching about this topic.

That's a small website about it, which recommends .308: http://users.frii.com/gosplow/satiws.html

and this is a kind of blog by the father of a U.S. Marine fighting in Iraq. It says that the soldiers there are pissed off that their .223 and 9mm weapons are not powerful to put their enemies down, even with multiple solid torso hits. His surname is Takahashi, so maybe it's a gook.

http://braden.weblogger.com/discuss/msgReader$321
 
Old March 22nd, 2006 #14
Schopenhauer
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There are many pre-built AR builders out there (Bushmaster, Rock River, Colt, Armalite,etc). I have used the Bushmaster AR variant with nice results. I would visit the ar15.com forums for more in-depth infomation.

5.56/.223 (see www.ammo-oracle.com) and 9mm are fine, heck you could use .22 as well. There are complaints about the stopping power of 9mm in Iraq mainly because NATO prevents the military from utilizing hollow point rounds. Shot placement and training are important as well! I wouldn't let those rumors stop you from purchasing a 9mm weapon. The Beretta 92 series is a good buy.
 
Old March 29th, 2006 #15
Granddragon36
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The Beretta 92 will break the slide when you shoot enough rounds through it. For 99.99% of the people, that would not be a problem, even if they lived four life times, but they WILL break. The military uses a slightly higher pressure round (NATO spec) and they replace the slides after every 5,000 rounds. Beretta redesigned the slide and slide release so when (not if) it breaks it does not fly off the frame and hit the shooter in the face.

If you want to see what guns really work, go to any shooting match. The steel sil. shooters use Dan Wesson revolvers and the IPSC shooters use 1911s. Why? Because they don't break! Massad Ayoob said he liked the S&W 29 so much he has three, one to shoot, one to send back to the factory, one coming back from the factory. The lock work is fragile and will break regularly in them if shot at all. The Browning Hi-Power is a great gun, but the frames break after so many rounds. Go to any military depot and they will show you case after case of broken frames. The Glock is a great gun for cops who don't shoot much, but they will blow up. I've seen three blow up at the range (IPSC). The new Glock book has a chapter called WHY GLOCKS BLOW UP! I have had an out of battery discharge (high primer probably) in my 1911 and the gun was fine after prying the brass plating out of the bolt face and chamber. The Glocks however were destroyed! I was standing behind the guy last Dec when his Glock blew and the mag/trigger were blow out, the slide was half blown UP off the frame and the entire gun trashed, which is what the others looked like too.

The .223 depends on speed (velocity) to work. Peter Kokalis said he would rather be shot with a .30 cal. under 100 yards instead of a .223, but over 100 yards the .223 was far less deadly (MGN, 1994). The 5.56 NATO (.223) will break at the cannelure and jacket pieces and both halves will go speeding around IF THE VELOCITY IS HIGH ENOUGH. Past 100 yards it starts losing speed (ESPECIALLY in short barreled guns) and then it just makes a .22" hole. The .30 cal (.308/7.62 NATO or .30-06) bullet tumbles (turns end for end) in flesh and will do so out ot 800 yards AND makes a .30" hole at all ranges. If you HAVE to get a .223, at least get a 20" barrel.

As to Full Metal Jacket (FMJ), Soft Point (SP), Hollow Point (HP), the .357 125 JHP has the greatest one shot stopping IN REAL WORLD SHOOTINGS, with 93% one shot stops. The .45 ACP comes in second with 92% with JHP and 84% with FMJ. The 9mm with FMJ comes in so low that it doesn't even register. The guys who shoot jello will tell you all sorts of BS, but then again they aren't out in the real world shooting people. I know I'VE never been attacked by a jello man, but several flesh and blood ones have taken a shot at me! The REAL experts who go in harms way use a .45 ACP/.357 almost to a man, depending if they like revolvers or autos. Look at the Phippine Campaign back at the turn of the century (1900 now I mean) and the .38 Colt (same power level as the 9mm) was a TOTAL failure! Read the Thompson-La-Grand (not right, can't think of his name) report. REAL WORLD, not jello!

Well you know what your life is worth to you, so you decide accordingly.
 
Old April 3rd, 2006 #16
Backwoods
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Remember the mid 80's shoot out between the cops/fbi and those bank robbers in Florida? A few of the fbi/cops were killed and it was later discovered that a few of the robbers had been shot by the laws 9mm's before shooting/killing some of the law. The FBI then started searching for an alternative to the 9mm, the .40 s&w is what they eventually adopted.
 
Old April 3rd, 2006 #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Granddragon36
...........

As to Full Metal Jacket (FMJ), Soft Point (SP), Hollow Point (HP), the .357 125 JHP has the greatest one shot stopping IN REAL WORLD SHOOTINGS, with 93% one shot stops. The .45 ACP comes in second with 92% with JHP and 84% with FMJ. The 9mm with FMJ comes in so low that it doesn't even register. The guys who shoot jello will tell you all sorts of BS, but then again they aren't out in the real world shooting people. I know I'VE never been attacked by a jello man, but several flesh and blood ones have taken a shot at me! The REAL experts who go in harms way use a .45 ACP/.357 almost to a man, depending if they like revolvers or autos. Look at the Phippine Campaign back at the turn of the century (1900 now I mean) and the .38 Colt (same power level as the 9mm) was a TOTAL failure! Read the Thompson-La-Grand (not right, can't think of his name) report. REAL WORLD, not jello!

Well you know what your life is worth to you, so you decide accordingly.
well said. but I didnt know that about glocks blowing up. never heard that one. never had a problem with em.

another nice thing about 357 is you can feed them 38 ammo. Evans and Sanow were the names of the cops that compiled that info as I recall, or was it Marshall and Sanow?

another thing you dont mention, is that we like Single Action triggers best. DAO is ok too. DA/SA like the beretta 92 is crunch tick. The first shot is always a flyer, how can you get used to this? Besides the 1911 trigger, I like Glocks.

The DA-SA thing was developed by the Germans because they realized that SA triggers lend themselves to accidental discharge in the hands of the unskilled and that even in the armed forces most people with handguns are unskilled. Why waste time trying to train the majority of milpers how to use the handgun, which is an essentially defensive weapon? Just give them something less likely to shoot their foot off.
 
Old April 3rd, 2006 #18
New Order
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While I prefer SA only I like the 92 Beretta pretty much and the only advantage I can think of with a DA is that if you had a round not fire you can pull the trigger again and it might go off the next time. It has happened in street duty.

9mm with +P+ is nothing to sneeze at.
 
Old April 9th, 2006 #19
cassius1976
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Thumbs up Glocks VS Beretta

I myself perfer the glock 17 over the beretta 92. I have owned both and I think the glockk is the better of the two. The beretta does not have that many mod that you can do yourself. the only thing that I liked about the beretta at the time that I owned it was that you had a 15rd mag andyou could buy an after market 30rd mag. I since have baught a glock 17, and love it. I have not had any problems with it. I currently own quite a few mags for it. The thing that I like most about the glock is that any sub compact 9mm that you buy you can slip in a mag from the 19, 17, ECT. The mags are interchangable. I have a 10rd, 3 17rd 19rd and am going to buy a 33rd mag. The only problem that I have found is that you want to buy factory glock mags. do not buy aftermarket, the metal in them will mess up the gun.
 
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