Hexagram Over Saturn's Pole

[Holly]

Ok Einstein so the space experts say

* "very strange"
* "never seen anything like it"
* "last place you'd expect to see a six-sided geometric figure"

But to you it is a common as ants at a picnic, so you disagree just for the sake to disagree with nothing to back you up, a few pics and the "floating Saturn theory" is it, oh yeah and do not forget about the FRICTION sheesh, you keep throwing God and jews in the mix as if that has anything to do with this ... And you wonder why some people think you are a idiot ?
It is a SUPER FORCE repeat after me SUPER FORCE and even space scientist who have spent their lives studying these things are puzzled over this, they need to study from psychologicalshock theory ? Spare me

[psychologicalshock]

Originally Posted by Holly

Ok Einstein

Why are you calling me a Jew Holly?

so the space experts say

* "very strange"
* "never seen anything like it"
* "last place you'd expect to see a six-sided geometric figure"

Now those excerpts are a bit misleading.

"This is a very strange feature, lying in a precise geometric fashion with six nearly equally straight sides," said Kevin Baines, atmospheric expert and member of Cassini's visual and infrared mapping spectrometer team at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. "We've never seen anything like this on any other planet. Indeed, Saturn's thick atmosphere where circularly-shaped waves and convective cells dominate is perhaps the last place you'd expect to see such a six-sided geometric figure, yet there it is."

But to you it is a common as ants at a picnic, so you disagree just for the sake to disagree with nothing to back you up, a few pics and the "floating Saturn theory"

I am not sure if you actually understand what I am saying Holly, don't you realize how sparse space is? It's not water and I never proposed any floating Saturn theory. Kind of strange considering that space is more perfect a vacuum than anything on Earth.

is it, oh yeah and do not forget about the FRICTION sheesh, you keep throwing God and jews in the mix

Wait, wait, back up let's remember who started the God canard.
Also, who called me a Jew?

as if that has anything to do with this ... And you wonder why some people think you are a idiot ?

You mean AN idiot. Who exactly thinks this? If you mean Sean then well...

It is a SUPER FORCE repeat after me SUPER FORCE and even space scientist who have spent their lives studying these things are puzzled over this, they need to study from psychologicalshock theory ? Spare me

Really? Could you name them for me? By the way if this is a SUPER Force what's the sun called? An Ultra force, what about a Red Giant? A super ultra force? Okay how about a blue one..? Uhm... A quad super ultra force. Okay how about a Nova... supernova... Shit, fuck it.

The fact of the matter is that even the SUPER Force of the sun can be emulated on Earth by a process known as Nuclear fusion. Small models in physical science are often what a lot of astronomy is based on and generally it would be nigh impossible to study it otherwise. What you call a SUPER force is actually the properties of weather on a much larger planet than our's. The principal is the same except that it loops - heat rises but the surface is ammonia ice so the heat actually escapes and thus the area around a gas giant is warm. Not surprisingly Saturn also has massive thunder storms which makes sense considering it too has an electric field.

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap050225.html

As for the hexagon - it's an exception in a solar system full of exceptional planets and moons. Considering we're a system of only 8 planets it's not surprising that the planets are so varied. As for theories, there are already theories for this phenomenon and you could easily look them up in a professional library. I honestly have never tried to have any large theory for this phenomenon simply made a comparison to Earth where rapid spinning substances create geometric shapes as well. The only purpose of it was to make the point that geometric shapes aren't uncommon formations and thus shouldn't be judged as supernatural or pseudonatural.

[Holly]

Originally Posted by psychologicalshock

Why are you calling me a Jew Holly?

I would think you would take it as a compliment to be called Einstein, no one accuses him of being dumb right ?

Now those excerpts are a bit misleading.

Misleading to the misled maybe, as for me they make perfect sense because they are TRUE

I am not sure if you actually understand what I am saying Holly, don't you realize how sparse space is? It's not water and I never proposed any floating Saturn theory. Kind of strange considering that space is more perfect a vacuum than anything on Earth.

Sparse space I am not quite sure what the means, anyway you now deny you said Saturn would float in a bucket ?

Wait, wait, back up let's remember who started the God canard.
Also, who called me a Jew?

Please use common English who are you going to impress with these stupid words ? What in the world is a God canard ?
And stop playing little games you know I did not directly call you a jew, if you despise them so then why always the capital J ?

You mean AN idiot. Who exactly thinks this? If you mean Sean then well...

More games, is this a spelling forum ? ReallyI think you would be better on yahoo chat than a racial forum.

Really? Could you name them for me? By the way if this is a SUPER Force what's the sun called? An Ultra force, what about a Red Giant? A super ultra force? Okay how about a blue one..? Uhm... A quad super ultra force. Okay how about a Nova... supernova... Shit, fuck it.

Ok funny ha ha there you go, a Super Duper Biggy Force

The fact of the matter is that even the SUPER Force of the sun can be emulated on Earth by a process known as Nuclear fusion. Small models in physical science are often what a lot of astronomy is based on and generally it would be nigh impossible to study it otherwise. What you call a SUPER force is actually the properties of weather on a much larger planet than our's. The principal is the same except that it loops - heat rises but the surface is ammonia ice so the heat actually escapes and thus the area around a gas giant is warm. Not surprisingly Saturn also has massive thunder storms which makes sense considering it too has an electric field.

So what is your point ?
If the hex feature and the red spot are just a common feature of a larger planet then why is not Jupiter filled with red spots ? Why are there not hex patterns all over Saturn ?

As for the hexagon - it's an exception in a solar system full of exceptional planets and moons. Considering we're a system of only 8 planets

9 last time I checked, did Pluto float away somewhere ?

it's not surprising that the planets are so varied. As for theories, there are already theories for this phenomenon and you could easily look them up in a professional library. I honestly have never tried to have any large theory for this phenomenon simply made a comparison to Earth where rapid spinning substances create geometric shapes as well. The only purpose of it was to make the point that geometric shapes aren't uncommon formations and thus shouldn't be judged as supernatural or pseudonatural.

Why are you so thick in the head, almost as a special ed student ?
I am trying hard not to insult you, you obviously are not dumb, just stubborn and uh, dense ?
I have said days ago ""Unnatural" does not imply it is impossible, freakish or evil" who here said the devil is at work on Saturn ? This is only in your mind, I have not said it, I have seen no one else here say it, apparently you have it in mind that must be what we think, so there you go again trying to make a issue of something which is not even there.
Fine, if you like to argue with yourself, not fine if you like reasonable debate with people of a variety of views.

Let me repeat, I do not view this as supernatural, unGodly, caused by ET or jews. A force of nature has caused this, a very uncommon force which I, and the best of scientist space minds, do not pretend to understand complete.
Also I do not recall saying that geometric shapes in themselve are rare, obviously they are not.
What is rare is to have a geometric shape weather pattern lasting for years, it is not only rare but completely unheard of until now.

[Kamerad Q]

Originally Posted by Holly

Interesting, it is hard to imagine a force of nature which would make such a shape over a long period of time.

More interesting; it is hard to imagine nature devoid of patterns.

[psychologicalshock]

Originally Posted by Holly

I would think you would take it as a compliment to be called Einstein, no one accuses him of being dumb right ?

I don't want to be a Jew, no matter how smart, but okay Susan Sontag.

Sparse space I am not quite sure what the means, anyway you now deny you said Saturn would float in a bucket ?

Actually my statements don't contradict one another
Water is 1 g/ cm^3 , Saturn is .70 g/cm^3 , makes perfect sense.
Space is too sparse to float in.

Please use common English who are you going to impress with these stupid words ? What in the world is a God canard ?

If you look at my first post it wasn't pointed towards you. You simply decided to intervene.
Don't worry Holly, I checked my memory and everything is A-ok

And stop playing little games you know I did not directly call you a jew, if you despise them so then why always the capital J ?

Because I have to differentiate between the real Jews and those who simply think they are.

More games, is this a spelling forum ? ReallyI think you would be better on yahoo chat than a racial forum.

Anyone who desires to contact me on yahoo can do so.

Ok funny ha ha there you go, a Super Duper Biggy Force



So what is your point ?

That we don't need super forces to explain meteorological, chemical and physical phenomena because our current definitions already explain most of them quite well.

If the hex feature and the red spot are just a common feature of a larger planet then why is not Jupiter filled with red spots ? Why are there not hex patterns all over Saturn ?

Saturn has a giant White Spot every 30 years or so and guess what? There's summer every 30 years on Saturn. Good God it seems I have found a pattern!

9 last time I checked, did Pluto float away somewhere ?

Indeed it did, it's no longer considered a planet because there are many similar objects to it in the Kipper belt.

Why are you so thick in the head, almost as a special ed student ?

Thatz funny coming from you.

I am trying hard not to insult you, you obviously are not dumb, just stubborn and uh, dense ?

Actually what I tell you is common knowledge in astronomy.

I have said days ago ""Unnatural" does not imply it is impossible, freakish or evil" who here said the devil is at work on Saturn ?

Look on the previous page, it was a joke because of the mistake made in the title. It's a hexagon not a hexagram. That's where it came from. Now why are you calling me dense?

This is only in your mind, I have not said it, I have seen no one else here say it, apparently you have it in mind that must be what we think, so there you go again trying to make a issue of something which is not even there.

Ah ah, you said Hexagon is an unnatural shape Holly now don't you be lying to me.
"What could possibly keep an unatural shape such as that in clouds ?"

Fine, if you like to argue with yourself, not fine if you like reasonable debate with people of a variety of views.

I always actually read a lot about something I want to discuss before actually discussing it.

Let me repeat, I do not view this as supernatural, unGodly, caused by ET or jews. A force of nature has caused this, a very uncommon force which I, and the best of scientist space minds, do not pretend to understand complete.

A force of nature creating unnatural shapes? Holly, do you really think I am stupid? My memory is fine, I am not old.

Also I do not recall saying that geometric shapes in themselve are rare, obviously they are not.

You called them unnatural.


I looked up the Hexagon for our common knowledge and here are some quotes I found. These are mostly abstracts. What strikes me as shocking is that there are no super forces mentioned!

Baines said teams of scientists are working on the hexagon, but it probably will be months before anybody publishes results. One theory has to do with the hexagon being a big, oscillating wave - picture the jet stream that encircles the Earth - shaped by some disturbing force.
I asked Baines whether anybody had accused the JPL or NASA or the government of covering up, you know, the Real Truth about the hexagon.
"Nobody's come up with anything serious like that," he said. "For (the face on) Mars, people were serious. Here, everybody understands it's a fluid planet."

David A. Godfrey of the National Optical Astronomy Observatories has determined that Saturn's interior rotates with a period of 10 hours, 39 minutes, and 22.082 [plus or minus] 0.122 seconds. The new measurement is derived from Godfrey's observations of a hexagonal cloud feature that surrounds Saturn's north pole. He reports in the March 9 issue of Science that his results lie within the uncertainty range of the best radio emission values for Saturn's rotation, a correspondence that indicates a link between the hexagonal surface feature and the planet's interior. Godfrey and colleagues believe that the hexagon is a Rossby wave, a type of large-scale, stable wave that also occurs in the earth's atmosphere and oceans. The wave on Saturn, which is stationary with respect to the planet's interior, is embedded in a narrow, eastward jet stream.

- Sky and Telescope v. 80 (October 1990) p. 348-9

Saturn's poles exhibit an unexpected symmetry in hot, cyclonic polar vortices, despite huge seasonal differences in solar flux. The cores of both vortices are depleted in phosphine gas, probably resulting from subsidence of air into the troposphere. The warm cores are present throughout the upper troposphere and stratosphere at both poles. The thermal structure associated with the marked hexagonal polar jet at 77[degree]N has been observed for the first time. Both the warm cyclonic belt at 79[degree]N and the cold anticyclonic zone at 75[degree]N exhibit the hexagonal structure. Reprinted by permission of the publisher.

-Science v. 319 (January 4 2008) p. 79-81

David Godfrey of the National Optical Astronomy Observatories has discovered an unusual hexagonal cloud feature around Saturn's north pole at a latitude of 76[degree], roughly 14,000 kilometers from the pole. Godfrey made the discovery through composite imaging of photographs taken of Saturn by Voyager. The dark hexagon is a jet stream that exists in a standing wave pattern high in Saturn's atmosphere. It rotates around the pole once every 10 hours and 39 minutes. This time period is also believed to be Saturn's rate of rotation at a depth of approximately halfway to the planet's core. Godfrey is not sure what causes the hexagon, but he believes that it may be the surface expression of a cylindrical zone that continues to great depths and rotates around Saturn's axis.

Ground-based observations of two conspicuous features near the north pole of Saturn, the polar vortex and the hexagonal wave structure, were made from July 1990 to October 1991, 10 years after their discovery. During this period the polar spot drifted in longitude, relative to system III, by -0.0353[degree] per day on average. Superimposed on this mean motion, the spot also underwent short-term rapid excursions in longitude of up to [similar]14[degree] at rates of up to [similar]1[degree] per day. The spot also exhibited irregular variations in its latitude location. A combination of these data together with those obtained by Voyager 1 and 2 in 1980 and 1981 shows that the spot drifted -0.0577[degree] per day for the 11-year interval from 1980 to 1991. The large lifetime of both features indicates that they are insensitive to the strong variations in the seasonal heating of the cloud layers in the upper polar atmosphere. Copyright 1993 by the AAAS

And here's one that sounds just like something id say

A bizarre, hexagonal-shaped whirl straddles Saturn's north pole. First noted in the 1980s during a Voyager flyby, the vortex was more recently imaged in stunning detail by an infrared sensor aboard NASA's Cassini-Huygens probe. The images reveal that the vortex is at least 5,000 miles in diameter, possesses several hurricane-like features, and has remarkably linear cloud corridors of hydrogen and helium that delineate the boundaries of its circulation. Interestingly, analogous structures have been recorded on Earth, such as hexagonal, plate-like clouds that are the visible manifestation of Bernard cells and the bizarre-looking pentagonal structure of the eye of Hurricane Isabel.

[Holly]

psychologicalshock whatever your name may be, it is obvious we have come to a dead end.
Even though a years lasting massive hex pattern weather system is unknown until this, even though the best space science minds [except yours of course] can not explain this very unusual system, you would have me believe in the "shit happens" theory, where everything is perfectly explained if only you believe it is so.
That is not the way my mind works and so I will state " I am right, you are wrong" and that is final.

Even what you have posted as some proof of your way of thinking ends mostly in thoughts just as mine.

"a correspondence that indicates a link between the hexagonal surface feature and the planet's interior"

"Godfrey is not sure what causes the hexagon, but he believes that it may be the surface expression of a cylindrical zone that continues to great depths and rotates around Saturn's axis."

And I said in post #9 3 days ago "It would have to be some sort of magnet force, and/or some feature on the planet itself with strong gravity which forces the air above it into this shape."


"The large lifetime of both features indicates that they are insensitive to the strong variations in the seasonal heating of the cloud layers in the upper polar atmosphere."

" insensitive to the strong variations in the seasonal heating of the cloud layers" .... A Super Force ? Why, yes. Mock it if you like, it is the truth.

"A bizarre, hexagonal-shaped whirl straddles Saturn's north pole" "Bizzare" = Not Common, let it sink in, please, and do not point me to a whirlpool in a cup as proof of your theory.

[psychologicalshock]

Originally Posted by Holly

psychologicalshock whatever your name may be, it is obvious we have come to a dead end.

I don't give out names to strangers.

Even though a years lasting massive hex pattern weather system is unknown until this, even though the best space science minds [except yours of course] can not explain this very unusual system, you would have me believe in the "shit happens" theory, where everything is perfectly explained if only you believe it is so.

Actually my largest complaint towards you is that there are no super forces, all the forces acting to create this phenomenon are mundane.

That is not the way my mind works and so I will state " I am right, you are wrong" and that is final.

That might work in real life, but fortunately you're not here to scratch my eyes out.

Even what you have posted as some proof of your way of thinking ends mostly in thoughts just as mine.

You mean scientific thinking?

"a correspondence that indicates a link between the hexagonal surface feature and the planet's interior"

"Godfrey is not sure what causes the hexagon, but he believes that it may be the surface expression of a cylindrical zone that continues to great depths and rotates around Saturn's axis."

And I said in post #9 3 days ago "It would have to be some sort of magnet force, and/or some feature on the planet itself with strong gravity which forces the air above it into this shape."


"The large lifetime of both features indicates that they are insensitive to the strong variations in the seasonal heating of the cloud layers in the upper polar atmosphere."

" insensitive to the strong variations in the seasonal heating of the cloud layers" .... A Super Force ? Why, yes. Mock it if you like, it is the truth.

"A bizarre, hexagonal-shaped whirl straddles Saturn's north pole" "Bizzare" = Not Common, let it sink in, please, and do not point me to a whirlpool in a cup as proof of your theory.

I never said that it isn't unique now did I? Simply that Geometric figures happen to exist in smaller models. There are no super forces acting here, but rather mundane forces in large amounts at once. It's the same thing as saying that the Hydrogen in the middle of a main sequence star (Our sun) is a super force. No it's not, it's simply a lot of nuclear fusion happening all at once. As far as it goes, to us this process is as mundane as heat rising on Saturn. The hexagon happens to be an interesting exception that is already being explored, but I guarantee you that it will be explained via forces and concepts we already understand. If this was that exceptional and/or surreal we would need many new theories altogether but we don't, all the theories I have cited show that all theory is limited to using mundane forces and there is no doubt in anyone's mind that there is nothing conceptually not understandable just like the explanation of the Giant Red Spot which happens to be an aberration also but is understood via terms we use to describe Earth's weather.

I believe that your largest problem is that you don't quite understand what a Force is , which is understandable considering that the definition is extremely slippery, this is one of the few times id recommend wikipedia simply because it has a large collection of short descriptions for them all
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force

[Holly]

Originally Posted by psychologicalshock

I don't give out names to strangers.

I am glad you remember you mothers advice, perhaps it was given to you very recently ?

I can only repeat, I am right, you are wrong. End of the story.

[psychologicalshock]

Originally Posted by Holly

I am glad you remember you mothers advice, perhaps it was given to you very recently ?

The most recent advice given to me was by my father, specifically to avoid women who say "I am right , you are wrong".

I can only repeat, I am right, you are wrong. End of the story.

Well Holly, I asked you to define a super force and you still haven't given me a definition except that no one knows what it is. It kind of sounds to me like this God thing everyone's talking about.

Second of all, you said its hard to imagine what sort of force would do this and the fact of the matter is it isn't hard to imagine what force is motivating this hexagon to keep spinning. The question is why is it a hexagon? The theories mentioned above explain it quite well without the use of any imagination.
"David Godfrey of the National Optical Astronomy Observatories has discovered an unusual hexagonal cloud feature around Saturn's north pole at a latitude of 76[degree], roughly 14,000 kilometers from the pole. Godfrey made the discovery through composite imaging of photographs taken of Saturn by Voyager. The dark hexagon is a jet stream that exists in a standing wave pattern high in Saturn's atmosphere. It rotates around the pole once every 10 hours and 39 minutes. This time period is also believed to be Saturn's rate of rotation at a depth of approximately halfway to the planet's core. Godfrey is not sure what causes the hexagon, but he believes that it may be the surface expression of a cylindrical zone that continues to great depths and rotates around Saturn's axis."

The view point you take is egoistic and not scientific. You obviously don't know much on this subject matter so to be honest it really doesn't make a difference if you think you're right or not. Sean will keep thinking ammonia kills plants and you'll keep thinking some mythical super forces are at work in the universe. What can I do about that? Just about nothing, it's not something that can be cured.

[Holly]

Shut up, you will not get the last word on me.

[psychologicalshock]

Originally Posted by Holly

Shut up, you will not get the last word on me.

Yes I will.

Speaking of which isn't it a bit ironic that you call me childish when you're acting like a toddler who didn't get her way? Talk about an over inflated ego too. If you're so right what does it matter? You're likely mad because if I don't shut up people will think you're inept.

Trust me Holly , if you had tied all the loose ends with grace I would have let you off the hook and admitted that you are right, but I am afraid that's not how it is.

[Holly]

I am right, you are wrong, simple fact - I could not care any less what "people" think.
Please learn to live with it.

[Kamerad Q]

Originally Posted by psychologicalshock

Yes I will.

Speaking of which isn't it a bit ironic that you call me childish when you're acting like a toddler who didn't get her way? Talk about an over inflated ego too. If you're so right what does it matter? You're likely mad because if I don't shut up people will think you're inept.

Trust me Holly , if you had tied all the loose ends with grace I would have let you off the hook and admitted that you are right, but I am afraid that's not how it is.

No you won’t. There is a primal “super force” of nature and you’re butting your head against it in futility; it is called woman. Anyhow, could the “super force” simply be a planetary Faraday wave?

[Mike in Denver]

Originally Posted by Kamerad Q

...a planetary Faraday wave?

It has to be this. You can create really strange, non-intuitive patterns in liquids with standing waves, including squares, hexagons, and so on.

To be fair to Holly, to see a giant, long-lived hexagon pattern in the atmosphere of Saturn is very, very odd. But, I'd bet there is even stranger stuff out there. And a natural cause for all of it.

Enkidu

[psychologicalshock]

Originally Posted by Kamerad Q

No you won’t. There is a primal “super force” of nature and you’re butting your head against it in futility; it is called woman. Anyhow, could the “super force” simply be a planetary Faraday wave?

I long realized how futile that is, but fortunately I have nothing to lose doing so.

When I first saw this I thought standing wave myself.

Originally Posted by Enkidu

It has to be this. You can create really strange, non-intuitive patterns in liquids with standing waves, including squares, hexagons, and so on.

Heh yes, I already mentioned that.

To be fair to Holly, to see a giant, long-lived hexagon pattern in the atmosphere of Saturn is very, very odd. But, I'd bet there is even stranger stuff out there. And a natural cause for all of it.

Enkidu

There's an irregular feature on nearly every planet in our solar system.

Originally Posted by Holly

I am right, you are wrong, simple fact - I could not care any less what "people" think.

Prove it.

Please learn to live with it.

No.

[tuisto]

[quote]

Originally Posted by psychologicalshock

The most recent advice given to me was by my father, specifically to avoid women who say "I am right , you are wrong".

I'd be careful...
It is fortunately in the nature of every woman to feel that she is right.
Otherwise how could she be able to take responsibility for the next generations of human beings.
Beware of the woman who hypocritically give men the illusion of being "right"!

[George Witzgall]

Holly and psychshock:

irresistible (ahem) SUPER force meeting an immovable object.

btw psychshock is more in the right on this one.

[Holly]

Originally Posted by George Witzgall

Holly and psychshock:

irresistible (ahem) SUPER force meeting an immovable object.

btw psychshock is more in the right on this one.

I am sure he must be overjoyed to have a forum troll on his side, poetic justice if you ask me.

[psychologicalshock]

Originally Posted by tuisto

I'd be careful...

I would be too.

It is fortunately in the nature of every woman to feel that she is right.

No, no, you're not reading it deeply enough.

The most recent advice given to me was by my father, specifically to avoid women who say "I am right , you are wrong".

The key word here is say. I don't give a crap what she thinks as long as she doesn't say it.

Otherwise how could she be able to take responsibility for the next generations of human beings.

Tyrants must have even more tyrannical mothers.

Beware of the woman who hypocritically give men the illusion of being "right"!

She can give me that illusion but that wont stop me from double checking for myself.

Originally Posted by Holly

I am sure he must be overjoyed to have a forum troll on his side, poetic justice if you ask me.

Now, now, no guilt by associate please , that's a bit dirty. We don't disbelieve 2+2=4 just because a villain said that is so.

[Holly]

Originally Posted by Enkidu

To be fair to Holly, to see a giant, long-lived hexagon pattern in the atmosphere of Saturn is very, very odd. But, I'd bet there is even stranger stuff out there. And a natural cause for all of it.

Enkidu

Not only odd, it has never been known to happen anywhere in the universe at any time, the best space minds cannot think of the force which creates it, but ask whats his name, he will point you to a cheesy pic of a whirlpool in a cup and say "problem solved" . Simple solutions for simple minds is all I can say.