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Old December 26th, 2009 #21
Hadding
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Originally Posted by Alex Linder View Post
Wrong as usual. Because even if you agree whites are to blame for letting in jews and treating them as individuals, the fact remains that jews occupy the top positions in our society and are the bulk of the people we have to go through to liberate ourselves. So there's no way not to discuss them and blame them, even if you accept that whites are ultimately to blame.
Up to this point you are saying what I said, just with a different attitude. Yes Taylor's teaching ultimately implies conflict with the Jews and yes the avoidance of the implications can be awkward to maintain. I pointed that out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Linder
Yet Taylor doesn't allow you to even talk about jews. And he calls them whites. Taylor's position makes no logical sense, no matter how you look at it - unless his real motive and mission is to protect the jews. Then it makes perfect sense and is completely logical.
In his interview with Giles, Taylor says that he only considers European Jews "white." Labeling European Jews as "white" is not going to prevent people from noticing that the Jews as a group have certain characteristics and certain proclivities. As a kindergarten approach for people who are really clueless it could be a good start. Later on, after they've gotten comfortable with this position, and lived with some Jewish hostility to their racism, people like me can explain to them that Jews are a racially distinct group with significant Negro admixture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Linder
Jared Taylor is our enemy. He should be shunned and denounced. That many so-called WN cannot do this is a measure of their stupidity and their weakness.
Hm last time I heard somebody saying that another person nominally on the same side should be "shunned" it was Kevin Strom saying it about you. What a bunch of silliness.

Last edited by Hadding; December 26th, 2009 at 09:25 PM.
 
Old December 26th, 2009 #22
Alex Linder
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Up to this point you are saying what I said, just with a different attitude. Yes Taylor's teaching ultimately implies conflict with the Jews and yes the avoidance of the implications can be awkward to maintain. I pointed that out.
There's nothing ultimate about it. The conflict in interests between Whites and jews defines our society - and the jews hold all the top positions and force their agenda on innocent whites. There is no way, ever, under any circumstances, to justify not talking about jews and their loxism. Taylor's position is completely indefensible, indeed incomprehensible, save he is fronting for jews, as the jew-funded leader of a white NAACP - an ostensible racial organization to the world, but in fact a group that is set up for the benefit of the jews funding it and directing its politics.

Quote:
In his interview with Giles, Taylor says that he only considers European Jews "white." Labeling European Jews as "white" is not going to prevent people from noticing that the Jews as a group have certain characteristics and certain proclivities. As a kindergarten approach for people who are really clueless it could be a good start. Later on, after they've gotten comfortable with this position, and lived with some Jewish hostility to their racism, people like me can explain to them that Jews are a racially distinct group with significant Negro admixture.
Waste of time. People should be taught about jews directly. You can't even begin to explain race in America without talking about jews. The story begins with their importing niggers as slaves. It continues with their destroying the back-to-Africa movement and black self-help movement and founding the NAACP to use the "civil rights movement" to destroy white freedom, and ultimaely the white race. Blacks are a headless race, and to treat anything they do as though it is self-directed rather than something other races allow them to do is illogical.

Quote:
Hm last time I heard somebody saying that another person nominally on the same side should be "shunned" it was Kevin Strom saying it about you. What a bunch of silliness.
Shunning is a perfectly valid practice. The questions that matters are: who is shunned, and for what?

Last edited by Alex Linder; December 26th, 2009 at 10:16 PM.
 
Old December 26th, 2009 #23
John Cassidy
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Well, Rounder, I'm not sure that I understand your rejoinder.

I'm not suggesting that we "tone down" our criticisms, I'm suggesting that we make them more effective. When we subject people to scatological defamation we aren't arguing as effectively as we could.

When we point out what Jared Taylor fails to do, using comprehensive examples, and then condemn him for his failures, we are attacking him more effectively then when we heap vulgarities upon him.

I'm not a big fan of colloquial language but let me employ it here: You should never wrestle with a pig in shit because you both get covered in shit and the pig likes it.

What I am saying is that we must not exemplify the pig in the above sentence. Not because we are prissy and want to exhibit good manners, but because setting such a bad example reveals that we are weak and reckless.

It is the meat of our arguments, our moral imperatives, and our moral outrage that win converts. Style counts, too, but if it degenerates into fecal imagery then we are hurting ourselves even as we hurt our adversary.
 
Old December 26th, 2009 #24
Alex Linder
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Originally Posted by John Cassidy View Post
It is the meat of our arguments, our moral imperatives, and our moral outrage that win converts. Style counts, too, but if it degenerates into fecal imagery then we are hurting ourselves even as we hurt our adversary.
You confuse your taste with what's effective. How do the ruling jews do it? Do they answer WN claims with evidence and logic? Or do they smear?

Your post is a typical example of GLR's claim that everybody considers himself a master of propaganda.
 
Old December 26th, 2009 #25
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Default once removed from the poison pen

You are right to say that Jews smear their enemies, but it should be noted that those who do the actual smearing are often distasteful to all. It is the Jews and their allies once removed from the poison pen who stay clean and enjoy the eventualities of their slanderers' handiwork.
 
Old December 27th, 2009 #26
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Originally Posted by John Cassidy View Post
Well, Rounder, I'm not sure that I understand your rejoinder.

I'm not suggesting that we "tone down" our criticisms, I'm suggesting that we make them more effective. When we subject people to scatological defamation we aren't arguing as effectively as we could.

When we point out what Jared Taylor fails to do, using comprehensive examples, and then condemn him for his failures, we are attacking him more effectively then when we heap vulgarities upon him.

I'm not a big fan of colloquial language but let me employ it here: You should never wrestle with a pig in shit because you both get covered in shit and the pig likes it.

What I am saying is that we must not exemplify the pig in the above sentence. Not because we are prissy and want to exhibit good manners, but because setting such a bad example reveals that we are weak and reckless.

It is the meat of our arguments, our moral imperatives, and our moral outrage that win converts. Style counts, too, but if it degenerates into fecal imagery then we are hurting ourselves even as we hurt our adversary.
Ha. The lemmings are so used to vile language from watching TV and hearing it in public everywhere they go, few even raise an eyebrow when hearing it on WN forums, especially free speech forums. Therefore, your argument has merit only when considering the sensibilities of bible toting, Xian, "ostriches".

OTOH, I lobbied (unsuccessfully) years ago for forum rules against vile language. Therefore, I cannot, in good conscience, say you're completely wrong. Alex is the boss though, and he likes to cuss.
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Old December 27th, 2009 #27
Sándor Petőfi
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Look, it's that American who's got it into his head he knows a thing or two about culture. He's got all the big words to prove it; words like "irregardless".
 
Old December 27th, 2009 #28
Igor Alexander
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Originally Posted by John Cassidy View Post
If I had never read Pat Buchanan's book: The Death of the West, I'd never have gotten to AmeRen or later, to VNN.
If there had been no Buchanan or Amren but only the MSM and something on the level of VNN or the NA, wouldn't you have found the latter sooner after becoming dissatisfied with the MSM? That's what I mean about these "gateways" being impediments rather than facilitators. And a lot of people get stuck at one of these "gateways" and never make it to the real deal.

If Jar-Jar wanted to focus more on race than on the Jewish Problem, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but what he's doing with his site and newsletter is actively suppressing any open discussion of the jews. You can't meaningfully talk about our race situation without discussing the jews.
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Last edited by Igor Alexander; December 27th, 2009 at 03:54 PM.
 
Old December 27th, 2009 #29
Igor Alexander
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There are people out there, ready and willing to learn the truth if we can reach them. But few of the people we want to enlighten will be inclined to wade through vulgar imagery to find our truths
It's not entirely about reaching out to people; it's about waging war on our enemies and illustrating in the most vivid possible terms that "we are not them." One does that by attacking, by ridiculing, by belittling, not by engaging in civil discourse.

The right could learn a thing or two from the left in this regard.
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Old December 27th, 2009 #30
Igor Alexander
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Above all, the public needs to perceive WN as the only way out from under the JEWISH system.

Thus, our entire political-ideological outreach must aim to polarize.
You'd be amazed (or maybe you wouldn't) at how many times I've been called a neocon or had people try to lump me in with Ronald Reagan for expressing white nationalist views. Granted, it's almost always leftists that do this, and as we all know, leftists are raving idiots, but it does nevertheless strongly suggest (as Alex has repeatedly said) that Joe Sixpack has trouble distinguishing us from conservatives. That needs to change.
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Old December 27th, 2009 #31
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Intellectual power.

Jared Taylor against Alexander Solzhenitsyn.

Ask Taylor in public if he thinks Jews murdered over 35 million Russians. He will never answer and he will be silent on the issue. That is how you find out what Taylor is about.



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Old December 27th, 2009 #32
Hugh
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Possibly it has not occurred to those attacking Amren, that Amren and Pat Buchanan and the other numerous mainstream groups VNN so loves to attack, have readers and speakers and members and sponsors from outside the US, and are not focused particularly upon the US.

In most of those countries, it is illegal to name Jews, illegal to doubt the holocaust, and illegal to form pro-White groups.
They are not trying to sneak up under the radar, they are staying within the law.

VNN advocating what would be illegal activities outside the US simply makes it look ridiculous.

To date the US has never acted against Jews, whilst Europe has always done so.
Americans advising Europeans about the Jewish threat is laughable.

Europeans don't talk about it because it's illegal to talk about it.
So they adapt.
Amren and such are more trying to work with all Whites worldwide, than just within the US, so need to watch what they say.

Watered down books and groups are often especially designed to be able to be distributed in such countries in many cases, and often edited after consulting with such groups to ensure such books would be able to be circulated in these countries.

Secessionists and nationalists from many mainstream groups and parties attend, read and contribute to Amren conferences and publications, from the UK, Belgium, South Africa, Australia, Germany and other places.

These are real people doing real things in real organisations in extremely hostile environments, working within extremely narrow legal systems, that attend Amren conferences to come in contact with each other, to discuss things illegal or very difficult to discuss or arrange in their own home countries.
Amren is indeed a gateway, since they can be safely quoted in countries outisde the US, where three quarters of Whites live, and where most nationalist movements are.

There's a big difference between posting on a website in a safe environment talking about the struggle, and actually conducting a struggle in real life, at very real risk.

Real organisations need real money, and can only raise it by acting legally.

More advanced organisations have understood that if they act in ways that endanger their members, or drive away their sponsors, or reduce their income streams, they won't have any members or income or any organisation.

Further, not everyone needs the ego strokes of seeing their names on websites.

WN at the end of the day is about secession, formation of new states, and running new states.

Jews are a very small threat in Europe compared to the Chinese and Muslims, both of which have the capacity to physically kill every European, even if Jews never existed.

Jews largely rely on White Americans to do their killing of Europeans, and to provide them with the taxes that enable Jews to dominate Europe and be a global power in the first place.

If US WN spend more time working with European nationalists, instead of urging them to get themselves imprisoned, and understood that the struggle for white survival requires many different partnerships and networks, that have to be adapted to real life circumstances, and with many levels and layers, it would benefit Whites greatly.
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Old December 27th, 2009 #33
Igor Alexander
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Originally Posted by Alex Linder View Post
You confuse your taste with what's effective. How do the ruling jews do it? Do they answer WN claims with evidence and logic? Or do they smear?
Speaking of scatological smears, does anyone remember when kike show South Park was associating Germans with "scheissen" (shit) porn?
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Old December 27th, 2009 #34
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You'd be amazed (or maybe you wouldn't) at how many times I've been called a neocon or had people try to lump me in with Ronald Reagan for expressing white nationalist views.
I don't know how many times some happy, babbling Kwan has told me I'm a "conservative" or a "republican" based solely on the fact that I'm obviously not a liberal Democrat.
In their little guppy brains they can't begin to fathom that there are entire worlds of thought outside of the propospheric fishbowl.
(Sometimes I like to scare them, I tell them I'm a "reader".)

(You know, like books n' shit.)
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Old December 27th, 2009 #35
Igor Alexander
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Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Possibly it has not occurred to those attacking Amren, that Amren and Pat Buchanan and the other numerous mainstream groups VNN so loves to attack, have readers and speakers and members and sponsors from outside the US, and are not focused particularly upon the US.

In most of those countries, it is illegal to name Jews, illegal to doubt the holocaust, and illegal to form pro-White groups.
I don't get your point. Jar-Jar Taylor is an American. His publication is called American Renaissance. What's his excuse?

Buchanan is American. What's his excuse?

You might want to note that VNN also has its share of posters that live in countries where criticizing jews (along with other minorities) is illegal.

Anyone who writes for Amren that lives in a country without freedom of speech can easily do so under a pen name.
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Old December 27th, 2009 #36
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Originally Posted by Hugh View Post

In most of those countries, it is illegal to name Jews, illegal to doubt the holocaust, and illegal to form pro-White groups.
It's not illegal to name Jews if it is done with an intellectual capacity to delineate the difference between normal and extremist Jews. In fact using the term "extremist Jew supremacists" is what Jews do with "extremist White supremacists". As long as your public intellectual discourse is reasonable to the general public and not extremist and emotional, then incitement claims hold no water.

One can still discuss the issue of extremism, of any racial group, in public media without harm, in fact it is encouraged by the Jews.

Jared Taylor does not set forth the fact that extremist Jew supremacists murdered 35 million Russians. He avoids public commentary on it completely. It is how we protect public interests and our families when we chose to use words. There are ways to couch historical sentences so as to prevent accusations and claims of broad racial hate incitement.

Avoidance of topics shows inarticulateness, not intelligence. Taylor could very well speak about the threat of Jewish supremacist extremism as being different from average Jews who are not such a threat. He could fly to Lyon and even give a speech on Jewish extremism. But he doesn't.

Normal common Jews would in fact appreciate Jared Taylor making the point that extremist Jews murdered 35 million Russians, and that most normal, common Jews did not orchestrate or hold appreciable guilt in the genocide. However, Jared Taylor does not want to shield average Jews, only the extremist Jews. That is far more sinister. Jared Taylor, without any doubt, is defending Jewish extremist Marxists, at the expense of normal average Jews.

The irony of Jared Taylor, when carefully examined, is that he is protecting the most extremist of Jews under cover of protecting common Jews. This runs counter to the history of law. That is cause for great reflection.

This whole ruse of Taylor being a moderate is deconstructed by his active defense of Marxist Jewish extremists in the genocide of 35 million Russians. He not only defames White people, but he defames Jew people.

Taylor is in essence a defender, and nothing less, of Jewish extremism.



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Last edited by Celtic_Patriot; December 27th, 2009 at 05:10 PM.
 
Old December 27th, 2009 #37
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Possibly it has not occurred to those attacking Amren, that Amren and Pat Buchanan and the other numerous mainstream groups VNN so loves to attack, have readers and speakers and members and sponsors from outside the US, and are not focused particularly upon the US.
That's all well and good but the fact is Buchkake and Jar-Jar aren't writing to an international audience.
Their writings are explicitly focused on American problems and addressed to American readers.
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Old December 27th, 2009 #38
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Originally Posted by MikeTodd View Post
That's all well and good but the fact is Buchkake and Jar-Jar aren't writing to an international audience.
Their writings are explicitly focused on American problems and addressed to American readers.
These baby-talk diminutives are idiotic, even by vnnf's current standards. If 'standards' is the right word.
 
Old December 27th, 2009 #39
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Aw c'mon! "Buchkake" is a good 'un.
I don't think anyone else has come up with that 'cept me.

Tip o' the hat to Linder for "Jar-Jar".
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Old December 27th, 2009 #40
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Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Possibly it has not occurred to those attacking Amren, that Amren and Pat Buchanan and the other numerous mainstream groups VNN so loves to attack, have readers and speakers and members and sponsors from outside the US, and are not focused particularly upon the US.

In most of those countries, it is illegal to name Jews, illegal to doubt the holocaust, and illegal to form pro-White groups.
They are not trying to sneak up under the radar, they are staying within the law.

VNN advocating what would be illegal activities outside the US simply makes it look ridiculous.

To date the US has never acted against Jews, whilst Europe has always done so.
Americans advising Europeans about the Jewish threat is laughable.

Europeans don't talk about it because it's illegal to talk about it.
So they adapt.
Amren and such are more trying to work with all Whites worldwide, than just within the US, so need to watch what they say.

Watered down books and groups are often especially designed to be able to be distributed in such countries in many cases, and often edited after consulting with such groups to ensure such books would be able to be circulated in these countries.

Secessionists and nationalists from many mainstream groups and parties attend, read and contribute to Amren conferences and publications, from the UK, Belgium, South Africa, Australia, Germany and other places.

These are real people doing real things in real organisations in extremely hostile environments, working within extremely narrow legal systems, that attend Amren conferences to come in contact with each other, to discuss things illegal or very difficult to discuss or arrange in their own home countries.
Amren is indeed a gateway, since they can be safely quoted in countries outisde the US, where three quarters of Whites live, and where most nationalist movements are.

There's a big difference between posting on a website in a safe environment talking about the struggle, and actually conducting a struggle in real life, at very real risk.

Real organisations need real money, and can only raise it by acting legally.

More advanced organisations have understood that if they act in ways that endanger their members, or drive away their sponsors, or reduce their income streams, they won't have any members or income or any organisation.

Further, not everyone needs the ego strokes of seeing their names on websites.

WN at the end of the day is about secession, formation of new states, and running new states.

Jews are a very small threat in Europe compared to the Chinese and Muslims, both of which have the capacity to physically kill every European, even if Jews never existed.

Jews largely rely on White Americans to do their killing of Europeans, and to provide them with the taxes that enable Jews to dominate Europe and be a global power in the first place.

If US WN spend more time working with European nationalists, instead of urging them to get themselves imprisoned, and understood that the struggle for white survival requires many different partnerships and networks, that have to be adapted to real life circumstances, and with many levels and layers, it would benefit Whites greatly.
Oh, I get it. Since Europeans cannot speak openly about jews, then we shouldn't either. That way European whites and American whites, all united in silence about the jews, will have a much better chance of freeing white people, worldwide, from jewish bondage and saving the white race from extinction.

Gee Alex, why the hell didn't YOU think of that ??

LOL !!!
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